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BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.

Tunesmith 03 Sep 18 - 04:25 PM
Raggytash 03 Sep 18 - 04:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Sep 18 - 04:55 PM
bobad 03 Sep 18 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Sep 18 - 06:47 PM
robomatic 03 Sep 18 - 09:58 PM
The Sandman 04 Sep 18 - 03:23 AM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 03:39 AM
David Carter (UK) 04 Sep 18 - 03:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 04:23 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 04:46 AM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 04:52 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 06:21 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 18 - 06:30 AM
KarenH 04 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM
Raggytash 04 Sep 18 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 08:05 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 18 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM
KarenH 04 Sep 18 - 10:00 AM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM
David Carter (UK) 04 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 10:58 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 18 - 11:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM
David Carter (UK) 04 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM
Stilly River Sage 04 Sep 18 - 11:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 18 - 12:32 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM
Backwoodsman 04 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 18 - 12:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Sep 18 - 01:48 PM
Iains 04 Sep 18 - 02:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM

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Subject: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Tunesmith
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:25 PM

The UK Labour Party are being criticised to not accepting the “International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism” in its entirety.
I’ve listed the complete definition at the bottom.
One of the problems I see with this is that we could subsequentily be inundated with similar “anti” this and that documents from all and sundry. For example, AntiMexicanism” ( Trump would fall foul of such a definition, I’m sure). AntiIslamism. Well, in such a definition I’m sure that all negative references to the faith and its founder would be seen as dangerously AntiIslamist.
AntiPalastinist would include all sorts of definition that,surely, Israel, and Jewish people generally, would never sign up to.
   I’ll just want to comment on one “definition” from the complete list below.

“Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations”.

This is a very dodgy one. Surely, there must be some UK/USA Jewish citizens out there who, when push comes to shove, would put Israel before, say, the USA or the UK.
Just as there were British citizens of Irish decent who would have put certain Irish causes before the UK’s position. And, of course, there will UK/USA etc Muslims who would put Muslim causes ahead of their adopted country’s position.

There are lots of examples of citizens of, say, the USA who would put their religious beliefs ahead of their country’s needs. Take Quakers, for example, when they say that they would not fight for their country, surely they are saying that in their country’s hour of need they would not answer the call because of religious reasons.

Now, follows the complete “International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism”

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanising, demonising, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterise Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:29 PM

Tunesmith, a very interesting article can be found at tinyurl.com/y7lo4zp8


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 04:55 PM

The sad thing is, Raggy, that the article itself falls under the defin!ition. It is critical of Israel and, if we start to follow the IHRA to the letter, becomes antisemitic. The alt truth of Trump, BoJo and other such maverick politicians seems to be spreading:-( 1984 May be a bit late but newspeak has definitely landed.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:39 PM

It is critical of Israel and, if we start to follow the IHRA to the letter, becomes antisemitic.

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

IHRA Working definition of anti-Semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 06:47 PM

The first five points and the last one are unarguable. There are serious problems with the other five points, all of which are designed to stall criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime. And we don't need "examples." The more you broaden out and tweak definitions, especially if you inhabit exclusively just one side of the argument, the more useless they become. As far as I'm concerned, it is not legitimate to criticise "Israel" or "the Jewish people" as a collective, ever. It is not legitimate to call for the destruction of Israel. It is always legitimate to be able to criticise the policies enacted by the Israeli regime. It is not antisemitic to say that the state discriminates against non-Jews in Israel, specifically the large Arab minority, because the discrimination is well-documented and self-evident. It can't be antisemitic to rail against Israel calling itself a Jewish state when almost a quarter of its population is non-Jewish. It can't be antisemitic to state unvarnished facts that are stated without tendentious intent. It can't be antisemitic to criticise the usurping of land for settlements for the exclusive use of Jewish citizens. It can't be antisemitic to criticise the building of a wall that robs Palestinians of land and divides their families. It would be outrageously antisemitic to say that these things are done because they're the typical behaviour of Jews. All this is very obvious and very simple. The expansion of an already-flawed definition to protect the Israeli regime's actions against criticism brings the perpetrators of the definition into disrepute and may actually put Jewish people in harm's way. Now that IS antisemitic.

By the way, the Nazis acted like Nazis. It is not beyond the realms of possibility for other regimes to act like Nazis. In that case it would be justifiable to accuse them of acting like Nazis. In my opinion it is still never wise to do that. You will never further the argument by so doing. And successive Israeli regimes, despite all their atrocities, have not acted like Nazis. Call it like it is, fearlessly, but that approach simply doesn't wash.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 09:58 PM

I saw this article about a week or so ago and considered bringing it into the discussion, which, bless every one of you, appears to be a discussion so far. I didn't want to resurrect a dormant thread or start a brand new one just over the article, but I think it fits here. If you have problems getting over the NYT paywall lemme know.

Especially with recent events to this very day the subject is topical and can draw comment from all sides. A lot of positions which seem to be very pro-Israel, such as the U.S. Administration cutting off U.S. money to the UN relief for Palestinians in Gaza.

There is a larger issue of whether or not to consider fourth generation Arabs as refugees which I think is valid. I am under the impression that a lot of UN money has gone to educating young Arab Palestinians that they are victims of the Jews. I'm sure they get that in their homes, but I've long felt the UN has no business financing them uncritically.

In an even larger sense I have doubts as to the integrity and intelligence of the current U.S. Administration, so I am wary of agreeing with them and I do NOT support them.

In a similar manner there are many Americans who appear to be pro-Israel who support them for anti-Semitic reasons. Specifically they expect the Jews in Israel to pave the way for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ with all the Jews either perishing or converting. Meanwhile, there are extremely anti-Zionist ultra-orthodox Jews living in Israel without participating in her defense. Is opposing them anti-Semitic? Is their opposition to Reform Jews anti-Semitic?

I am not trying to muddy the existing issue. Jeremy Corbyn sounds more partisan than fair-minded. I am trying to illustrate the extreme complexity of the issue.

The best thing the Arabs could do to end Israel's existence would be to establish peace across all borders, then sit back and wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:23 AM

I hd step relatives that were jewish and were lucky to escape from nazi germany, i do not consider Corbyn anti semitic, the whole thing is a trojan horse aimed at replacin corbyn with another blair type .


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:39 AM

As the chief rabbi says:" It is astonishing that the Labour Party presumes that it is more qualified than....in particular, the Jewish community to define antisemitism."


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 03:54 AM

Another Blair type would be just fine, Dick. This is aimed at smearing the whole Labour party, and some of their membership are complicit.

The Chief Rabbi in question was an ex Chief Rabbi, not the current one. And some of the things he said in that article, for instance support for the new law in Israel excluding Palestinians from the right of self determination, rather undermine his credibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:08 AM

This is aimed at smearing the whole Labour party, and some of their membership are complicit.

It all came from within the party, mostly from Jewish MPs and members who complained of intimidation.
Sure other Jewish groups have expressed an opinion but this is entirely an internal matter for Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:23 AM

Rag's article is a disgusting and anti-Semitic lie.
Ordinary, decent long standing Labour members and MPs complained about the anti-Semitism they have experienced from within the party.

It is outrageous to suggest that they are acting as paid agents of a foreign government.

It is an familiar old trope to claim that Jews engage in international conspiracies to subvert democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:46 AM

These accusations can be traced back directly to Corbyn's declaration of support for the Palestinian people - within four weeks of his doing so a group of 'Labour Friends of Israel' travelled to Jerusalem and were hosted by Netanyahu and his Ministers, they returned home and the accusations began
Before this event there was not a suggestion of a problem of antisen#mitism within the Labour Party.
All the highlighted complainants of antisemitism have been either supporters of the actions of the Israeli regime or right wing opponents of Corbyn's socialism
In all this, the views of the Jewish members of the Labour party who oppose the behaviour of the Israeli regime have been vilified or totally ignored

The problems of the definition have never been discussed publicly in the press
Who has ever expected a higher standard of behaviour from Israel the of any other state?   
The Israeli Army has recently shot down thousands of unarmed demonstrators - the fatalities nearly double those of the internationally condemned Sharpeville massacre
The only difereb#nce between the two has been tha the South Africalm massacre filled our press for months and still acts as an example of extreme state terrorism
The recent mass killing have been met with a blanket of press silence

As far as 'comparison with the Nazis' - this has been a growing phenomenon within the Jewish cultural groups throughout the world and within Israel itself, former leading statesmen, high ranking military officers, ex heads of security, leading Israeli newspapers like Haaretz, Holocaust survivors and their descendents...... all have made this comparison
The Israeli regime is dic#viding The Jewish people into Jews who support its behaviour and 'self-hating Jews who oppose them
The Holocaust was a supreme act of ethnic cleansing, yet Israel's own surveys indicate that nearly half of the Israeli population favour the tehnic cleansing of the Arab People
How can such a comparison be 'antisemitic'?

Any definition of sectarianism or racism that protects political groups or Government policies has to be opposed vigouously
The Nazis sent their opponents to the extermination camps alongside six million Jews

A holocaust survivor friend in Manchester once spoke five words which have governed my life ever since

                                                                     NEVER AGAIN; NOT TO ANYBODY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:52 AM

If you make a general search antisemitism and labour and highlight news then you will see both UK and international newspapers are discussing the topic.
To pretend it is a made up story, or that it lacks substance, or to explain it as a ruse to undermine Corbyn is simply avoiding reality.
The pontifications of a minority on an obscure website cannot alter the fact that Labour has a well documented problem with antisemitism.
If it was not a problem it would not be grabbing headlines worldwide
from Al Jazeera to the Wall Street Journal. That is a fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM

"Rag's article is a disgusting and anti-Semitic lie."
Can I suggest that, if we are goinjg to have a half decent discussion on this topic rants like this be nipped in the bud from the beginning
The article makes debatable points - debate them or leave

"If it was not a problem it would not be grabbing headlines worldwide"
HERE IS WHY IT IS BEING DISCUSSED WORLDWIDE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:27 AM

The obstinate reality is that Jeremy Corbyn, more than almost all prominent UK politicians, has been an ardent opponent of racism, discrimination and social injustice all his life. The so-called Labour antisemitism problem was initiated by a small number of anti-Corbyn MPs on the right of the party, all of them disaffected ex-Blairites. The issue has been pounced on by the Israeli regime and by various pro-Israel lobbies such as Labour Friends Of Israel who dearly don't want to see a pro-Palestinian UK prime minister. Cosily for Netanyahu and co., there are few if any of those in the western world. Any criticism of Bibi from the west is, at most, mild and toothless, and he knows it, and he ruthlessly exploits it. Why, he even brazenly announced major new settlements while Obama was on a state visit to Israel. It seems that they will do anything to stop a supporter of the Palestinians getting into Downing Street. Whenever I go to Prestwich I buy the local Jewish newspapers. It is neither an exaggeration nor antisemitic to say that those papers have a virulent anti-Corbyn obsession, and many of their moans come from inside Israel, quotes, statements and articles from members of the regime or their fellow-travellers. There is almost more than that stuff than there is local news, and even that is often tainted by anti-Labour references. Corbyn's support for BDS gave the regime and its supporters the perfect pretext. Just to remind us that most of those older MPs who now spend their time briefing against Corbyn voted for the Iraq invasion and supported the occupation of Afghanistan and put themselves in bed with Bush. They are the people who helped to foment the growth of Islamic terrorist groups, and that can be traced back historically for decades. That's the kind of people who are whipping up the storm against this man of peace. They are so zealous that they'd rather see the Labour Party destroyed than to stay united and fight from within to settle their differences. In other words, they would rather like the Tories to win the next election and a few more after that. Brilliant, innit.

And if anyone wishes to do the kneejerk and accuse writers of opinion pieces of antisemitism, they'd better be ready to say exactly what was said in the piece to fit the bill. Keith's reaction to the link was predictable, lame, pathetic as ever and completely lacking in substance.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM

Nice attempt to portray it as false news, but when Al Jazeera gives it headlines I think a rational person would accept the story has wings.
If the rest of the world accepts a definition then a dispassionate view would conclude that if labour cannot accept the same definition then the party has a problem with anti semitism.

As wee geogie brown, the former prime minister said:" the issue touched at the soul of the Labour Party and must be dealt with at once.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/uk-labour-party-vote-anti-semitism-definitions-180903161203173.html

If the issue is not resolved the party will self destruct(not that I would lose any sleep over such an event!)


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:56 AM

"Nice attempt to portray it as false news, but when Al Jazeera gives it headlines I think a rational person would accept the story has wings"
So you would deny Arab newspapers the right to credibility - yeah - that sounds fair to me !!!!!
Jews thoughoutthe world are making exactly the same claims - including thoo#se in the Labou party asnd journaliata writing for Haaretz
Maby you would lke to extend your ban to the left as well
Why not just debate the definition itself rather than blocking avenues of discussion?
Coming from a staunch supporter of an extreme right wing blogger like Guido Fawkes, your disparaging attitude falls somewhat flat

A TIMELY REMINDER

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 05:59 AM

Long standing Jewish Labour members and MPs lie about experiencing anti-Semitism, at the bidding of foreign government.
You will not find that anti-Semitic trope published in any reputable outlet.
You will never see it in the Guardian.
You will never hear any Labour spokesman suggesting it.
Peter Willsman said something much less ant-Semitic and what happened?
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/31/corbyn-ally-says-jewish-trump-fanatics-make-up-antisemitism-claims

Wiki on Middle East Eye,
"Despite Hearst's denial of affiliation between the MEE and any governments or organizations, several members of the Muslim Brotherhood are affiliated with the Middle East Eye.[3][4]
Additionally, according to The Guardian, the MEE has been noted by Saudi Arabia as a news outlet funded by Qatar (both directly and indirectly);[5] the Qatari government is regarded as a supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. On 22 June 2017, during the 2017–18 Qatar diplomatic crisis, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Egypt and Bahrain, as part of a list of 13 demands, demanded that Qatar close the Middle East Eye, which was seen as sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Middle East Eye denied it has ever received Qatari funds"


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:21 AM

Can we please stop this 'Antisemitic trope' nonsense ?
Jewish members of parliament are just as likely to lie as are any other politician - that is what all politicians do
If The labour party is riddled with antisemitism it is about time that those making the accusation started to come up with specifics rathar than repeating the unqualified accusations
WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS "ANTISEMITISM" THE LABOUR PARTY IS SUPPOSED TO BE GUILTY OF?   
The accused is entitled to have the charges read out to them - what are they?
So far , all we have are lists off accusers

If Arab voices are to be censored #from having a say, so a#re the voices of those defending Israel
It is noticeable that to some posters the Saudis only become villains when it suits them - the same posters have said it's fine for Britain to sell them fighter planes to bomb the shit out of the Yemeni people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 06:30 AM

Slurs and smears, as expected.

"The rest of the world" has not accepted the definition. It has been adopted by just 31 countries. The definition has no legal force even in countries that have adopted it. There a lot more to be said about the origin, the chequered history and the widespread criticism of a definition that was initiated by pro-Israel advocacy groups for the EU, dumped by the EU and revived with very little thought by tbe IHRA. Even its originator is very unhappy with the way it's been used to stem free speech and criticism of the Israeli regime. More on that later, maybe, if we get that far.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM

Whoever said that the problems with the definition have never been discussed in public must be excluding discussion on the Guardian's web site from his idea of 'in public'.

The Guardian has referred several times to Geoffrey Robinson QCs analysis of the 11 examples, which are part of the full definition.

It has also published discussion suggesting, broadly, that the definition attempts to conflate anti-Jewish animus with anti-Zionism.

There are other examples too.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 07:35 AM

The person who gave me the link, also text to me the following:

"There is a plurality of Jewish opinion about antisemitism in the Labour Party both here and in Israel itself. In this critical week of decision making for the Labour Party , we should pay careful attention to a freedom of information request submitted by a group of respected Israeli lawyers, human right activists and academics regarding the involvement of the Israeli ministries of Strategic and Foreign Affairs in stoking the antisemitism row as part of a wider campaign to undermine Palestinian solidarity activists. Evidence is mounting that they have a strong case. But so far no British newspaper has been courageous or disinterested enough to investigate."


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:05 AM

Why is this powerful story Rag links to not told by any reputable publication or broadcaster?
Because it is a racist lie and there would be a prosecution.

The claim is that all those highly respected and longserving
Labour people, Jews and non Jews, are lying about their own experience and doing it in the service of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:18 AM

What are you refusing to specify your accusations against the Labour Party Keith - don't you believe in justice
You have been the manin accuser (appart from y#two trolls, you have been the only one)
What exactly is Labourt guilty of - have you examples of them ever attacking or smearing the Jewish people
ore are you going to continue with'hearsay'   
KarenH has just underlined xactly what the objective of this new definition is - the protection of extreme Zionist action
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 08:19 AM

Give me a list of the ones you regard as highly-respected, please. Then give me a list of the ones who are not highly-respected.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 09:49 AM

The story is just propaganda.
It is lies. If there was any evidence it would be reported in the normal way.
Publishing such lies here or in any decent country would be considered a hate crime.

Defending it does none of you any credit.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: KarenH
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:00 AM

My view is that there is probably just as much anti-Jewish animus in the Conservative Party if not more than in the Labour Party. The fact that some anti-Labour newspapers have chosen to give this big headlines has to be party political as much as it is anything else.

I do know of Jewish Labour Party members who get fed up of its being automatically assumed that they are zionists simply because they are Jewish and who feel that this is antisemitic.

I was not intending to state that the purpose or the whole purpose of this document is to protect 'extreme Zionist action', though I would imagine that, given the debates I have heard, it would not surprise me if the definition, being, as I do accept, legally unsatisfactory in its detail, might be used in an attempt to support that purpose should such a thing take place.

I was simply trying to make the point that there has been discussion of the definition, and citing examples. I did not necessarily mean to imply approval or disapproval, though if Robertson says something is legally not quite good enough I am tempted to think he may be right.


I certainly do not subscribe to the view that there is no such thing as anti-semitism and that all those who work against it are motivated solely by a hatred of Corbyn and a desire to subvert criticism of Israel.

Apols if my intention did not come across clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:03 AM

"Nice attempt to portray it as false news, but when Al Jazeera gives it headlines I think a rational person would accept the story has wings"
So you would deny Arab newspapers the right to credibility - yeah - that sounds fair to me !!!!!


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? The wrong end of the stick as usual!
I say one thing in very plain english. You come up with a totally off the wall interpretation of what was said. How very typical!
The present UK ruling party sees fit to accept the definition in its entirety. A shame the wannabee pm corbyn of the allotment cannot do the same. Is he man or mouse?
The frothings of the lefties here are entirely vacuous, as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:27 AM

There are some in the UK Labour party who would have it that promoting the Palestinian right of return, as supported by Article 11 of UN General Assembly resolution 194, is antisemitic. It would be interesting to see what people here think. To me regarding this as antisemitic is a step too far.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:45 AM

The frothings of the lefties here are entirely vacuous, as usual.

And the abuse dealt out by you is entirely predictable. Did you not learn anything from your forced time out?


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 10:58 AM

"The frothings of the lefties here are entirely vacuous, as usual."
Is trhere a moderator available to remove this person - i9f not, why not
This is a deliberate attempt to scupper thi thread before it gets going
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:10 AM

Several of the examples in tbe so-called definition are extremely problematic. I repeat. The definition was drawn up by a committee of pro-Israel advocates at the request of the EU. The definition was seen as badly-drafted and weak and was NEVER adopted by the body that commissioned it. It was eventually removed from the website of the FRA, the successor body to the EUMC who first commissioned the definition, having never been adopted. It had never got past the work-in-progess stage. It was deemed unworkable and too controversially in favour of restricting criticism of Israel. Three years after it was finally ditched it was jumped on by the IHRA. They adopted it more or less verbatim, with all its badly-drafted phraseology, without scrutiny (which they admitted - not my opinion). Since then it has been adopted by 31 countries who have allied themselves to that body. That is not "the whole world" for the information of Iains. There are 195 countries in the world. So 164 countries have not adopted the definition. The man who first drafted the definition is unhappy with the manner in which it has been used to restrict free speech and criticism of Israel, stating that that was not the definition's intention.

I'd suggest that political pressure to adopt this definition in full without demur is improper. Credit to Labour so far for the resisting the clamour of the headless chickens. I'll be disappointed if Labour caves in and am absolutely certain that, if they do, it won't be the end of of the matter, not by a country mile. After all, this isn't about antisemitism at all. It's about trying to unseat Corbyn by the disaffected right-wing of the Party and about preventing, at all costs, the election to PM of a leader who is one of the very few in the west who is sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians in a way that is more than just paying lip service.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:21 AM

I posted this wiki extract in the "wrong" thread so I'm posting it again here. It's the opinion of the man who first drew up the definition. I doubt whether Keith and co. will really want to listen to him, let alone contemplate the tainted history of the misuse and abuse of the definition.

Here's what the originator of the definition, Kenneth Stern, now has to say about its abuse (from wiki):

The main drafter of the working definition and its examples, Kenneth S. Stern, has not critised the definition, but has cautioned against the free speech implications of its use as a legal tool. In 2011, he co-authored an article about how the 'Working Definition' was being abused in Title VI cases, because it was being employed in an attempt to "restrict academic freedom and punish political speech." He stated that even when these cases were lost "they chilled pro-Palestinian expression" and "McCarthy-like" usage. In November 2017, Stern explained to the US House of Representatives that the definition has been abused on various US university campuses. He warned that it could "restrict academic freedom and punish political speech" and questioned whether definitions created by minority groups should be legislatively enshrined, giving as one of several examples:

"Imagine a definition designed for Palestinians. If "Denying the Jewish people their right to selfdetermination, and denying Israel the right to exist" is antisemitism, then shouldn't "Denying the Palestinian people their right to self-determination, and denying Palestine the right to exist" be anti-Palestinianism? Would they then ask administrators to police and possibly punish campus events by pro-Israel groups who oppose the two state solution, or claim the Palestinian people are a myth?"

He states that the definition was created with data collectors in mind. "I encouraged the Department of State's first Special Envoy for Antisemitism to promote the definition as an important tool. He used it effectively as the framework for a report on global antisemitism." He added: "approaches to antisemitism that endorse and promote academic freedom are more likely to work, in part because they underscore the academy’s goal of increasing knowledge and promoting critical thinking.... approaches that explain academic freedom away or harm it will not only fail, they make the problem worse."


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:41 AM

There are some in the UK Labour party who would have it that promoting the Palestinian right of return, as supported by Article 11 of UN General Assembly resolution 194, is antisemitic. It would be interesting to see what people here think

Of course it is not anti-Semitic, and I challenge you to show that anyone in Labour says it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:54 AM

Joan Ryan, chair of Labour Friends of Israel, does not explicitly use the word antisemitic, but brands Jeremy Corbyn's support of the Right of Return as "extreme and illegitimate".

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180629-labour-friends-of-israel-palestine-refugees-right-to-return-is-extreme-and-illegitima


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 11:56 AM

You guys sure know how to start hot-button threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:32 PM

It's silly, Stilly (scuse the pun). Everyone knows that some only come here to argue, Keith has said that is what he does. Yet others keep falling for it. I would just evict them but if that is not to be, ignoring is the next best thing.

Nice to see the true you back BTW. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM

If we stick to facts instead of predigested half-baked prejudices we CAN discuss ANYTHING! But when you get someone who proclaims that "the whole world has adopted it..."


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:45 PM

Stilly never went away, Dave - she was just incognito!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM

Labour has agreed to accept the definition. Game over.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:48 PM

"If we stick to facts instead of predigested half-baked prejudices we CAN discuss ANYTHING! But when you get someone who proclaims that "the whole world has adopted it..."

And the absolute proof of that was the peace and harmony that reigned during the recent period of absence of that 'someone' (and his mate, who now seems to have re-appeared).


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 12:49 PM

I know, John. And why :-) You can't tell us Gnomes owt!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:00 PM

If only it was game over but there will still be those on here and in the press gunning for Corbyn while the real racists in the Tory party and on here keep getting away with it.

Let's do a little survey shall we? How many of you brave upholders of Judaism were manning the barricades when synagogues were burnt down in London or desecrated in Swansea? How many of you showed a glimmer of interest before Corbyn was selected as party leader?


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:09 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/sep/04/brexit-raab-labour-nec-antisemitism-corbyn-should-use-conference-spee
Well here they are. Where they should have been months ago.
Prevarication has only caused the party harm and to what end?


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

David, she says she disagrees with the right to return policy but never suggests that it is anti-Semitic to support it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:19 PM

Labour has agreed to accept the definition. Game over.
We'll see
Now Israel and America are free to starve the Palestinians into submission - which was basically what all this was about
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:28 PM

" Labour’s ruling body has agreed to adopt the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism in full and issue a clarification emphasising the right to non-racist free speech when discussing Middle Eastern politics.

    The national executive committee (NEC) accepted the IHRA definition with all 11 examples at a tense afternoon meeting where Jeremy Corbyn was present, in an attempt to end the long-running row about alleged antisemitism within the party.

The clarification added will continue to fuel controversy. How stupid!


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 01:48 PM

"The clarification added will continue to fuel controversy. How stupid"
Waste of tim,e asking why
What is incredibly stupid is that some jewish \re demanding the expulsion of John Willsman for referring to them as 'Trump lovers'
Apparently nobody hass told them that Israel is proposing to name a railway station after this highly-respected politician
This incredible piece of double-think is exactly why any safeguards against right-wing hypocrisy such as this are essential
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: Iains
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 02:03 PM

Criticism of Israeli politics is perfectly allowable under the definition. And let's face it, Israeli politics presents many facets that invite criticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: The UK Labour Party and Antisemitism.
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Sep 18 - 02:14 PM

Why don't they just hand over running of the Labour Party to Israel....

there.. problem solved...

..except even that probably wouldn't satisfy them...


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