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BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back...
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Subject: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 19 - 02:45 PM Well, you all know the rules. Stick to the topic and refrain from personal insults or the thread may be closed. On the last one I asked the leavers to come up with ideas on how to satisfy the needs of most people rather than alienating one half of the electorate by either cancelling brexit or leaving without a deal. I laid out my ideas. Over to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Raggytash Date: 10 Aug 19 - 02:55 PM I suspect the number of ardent leavers are in a very small minority. I also suspect that many other leavers do not fully understand the ramifications of what leaving will actually do the UK economy. For example the fishing industry is not suddenly going to be revived, the farming industry will not get the subsidies they currently enjoy. The limited industry we have could well be decimated, the Health service put under threat from multinational corporations seeking to privatise it. The cost to the average person in the UK could see them suffer lower expectations and conditions for decades. I have repeatedly asked those who are in favour of leaving to quantify to benefits to me and millions of other like me. I have yet to receive any assurances of any kind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Raggytash Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:26 PM With reference to my mention of farming could someone please link to the Guardian article which suggests that Dominic Cummings has received large sums from the EU for his share in a farm in County Durham. You really could not make this this up!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:34 PM There you go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:39 PM With reference to my mention of farming could someone please link to the Guardian article which suggests that Dominic Cummings has received large sums from the EU for his share in a farm in County Durham. No, I can't find it. Is it too much to ask that you provide your own links to information which you believe may support your arguments? Or are you happy to make unsupported comments, and hope that they are taken as facts? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Raggytash Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:43 PM I would do Nigel but I am operating on a very small android device in a bar on the west coast of Ireland. Creating links is I'm afraid beyond the capabilities of my device .................... and me. As you well know when I have full internet access I always provide the relevant links. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:44 PM Already provided the link, Nigel, and, as requested, please do not get personal or post off topic. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Raggytash Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:47 PM Thank you Dave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:13 PM The limited industry we have could well be decimated, In the UK, manufacturing makes up 11% of GVA, 44% of total UK exports, 70% of business R&D, and directly employs 2.6 million people. Despite the decline since the 1970s, when manufacturing contributed 25% of UK GDP, the UK is currently the ninth largest manufacturing nation in the world. Anyone owning farmland and actively farming is entitled to EU subsidies. After all the Dynamic inventor MR Dyson is the biggest sinle recipient of EU funds in the UK (and the third largest taxpayer) UncleTom Cobley and all The politics of envy is alive and well. Do you have the same attitude towards the 11% of Labour MPs that are landlords. Does not voting or discussing such incidents as Grenfell Tower or topics such as rent controls not represent a conflict of interest for such MPs? If you are really inquisitive try below https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north#register |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: DMcG Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:29 PM I am afraid the evidence thus far is we are unable to stick to the guidelines that were at the start of the last thread which are basically the same the start of this one. With luck this one will be different, but, apart from this post, I think I will voluntarily exclude myself unless we can go a few weeks without insulting each other or getting the thread closed. I will post elsewhere as it arises. With luck, I will speak to you all eventually here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:39 PM OK, this is just for the sake of it. Did anyone else read Jonathan Freedman's piece in today's Guardian? I thought it painted a fairly probable picture of our near future outside the EU... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:47 PM There is one simple way to keep the thread open - everyone, everyone should refrain from responding to him. He is not debating or discussing, he is simply provoking, trying to silence those who oppose his views. How many more times does it need to be said? Don’t Feed The Troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:55 PM Agreed, John. But for chrissake let's post on topic in every post so that opportunist interlopers such as, well never mind (he got deleted), and disaffected mods who have nothing to say about brexit are made to look like prize pillocks. Having said all that, I'll have to watch the news on the Beeb before I can force any more brexit stuff out... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:17 PM I've had a lovely evening with the mrs not thinking at all about brexit.. Relaxing and unintentionally funny 4 part round up on the Royal Welsh Show on BBC catch up.. We're 2 parts in.. and so far, with all those Welsh farmers, and not a noticable mention of the "B" word... You wouln't think there was a problem in the world... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Aug 19 - 02:52 AM Here is a link to the article Steve mentions. Makes a lot of sense and links to the question I have asked. What sort of deal will be acceptable to all concerned? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:19 AM It’s a good article Dave, and it illustrates perfectly the mistake of Cameron and his cronies in calling a Referendum with a simple, binary question to decide a multi-faceted, extremely divisive issue. And, of course, he should never have made a promise that was beyond his authority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:59 AM I wonder why the remainers are always quoting Guardian articles. Does it have the shared attribute of papal infallibility? or is it simply a leftist propaganda vehicle with a particular anti brexit stance? And, of course, he should never have made a promise that was beyond his authority. The European Union Referendum Act 2015 is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that made legal provision for a pre-legislative referendum to be held in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar, on whether it should remain a member state of the European Union or leave it The bill was introduced to the House of Commons on 28 May 2015. Two weeks later, the second reading of the Act was supported by MPs from all parties except the SNP;and given Royal Assent on 17 December 2015 and came partly into force on the same day, and came into full legal force on 1 February 2016. Before making inflammatory statements it is always a useful idea to check your facts. Parliament made the decision for a referendum, not Cameron. Lay blame where blame is due, I always say! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Aug 19 - 06:40 AM So Baldilocks Sadge is proposing to flood our tills and pockets with brexiteer 50p pieces. The coins will carry the message "Friendship with all nations" (as if being in the EU means we can only be friendly with 27) and will be stamped with the date 31 October 2019. How bloody childish. How stupid. We are being "governed" by a bunch of prematurely triumphalist morons. But we already knew that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:29 AM We can all hope that the 31st October will be great day for democracy, where the majority will finally see the government bow to their electorate's instruction. But we shall see! Many are hellbent on wrecking and frustrating the will of the majority. You only have to follow the brexit postings on mudcat to be able to appreciate that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 08:26 AM Word has leaked out from Buck Hose that Madge (long may she reign) has expressed her disgust at the level our representatives in Westminster - her comment on our present mob of politicians says she is "exasperated" - who can blame the poor dear - gawd bless 'er Johnson's latest stunt at reintroducing the racially charged suss laws, stopping the shortening of prison sentences and a massive input into law and order is described as playing to the crowds in preparation for a General Election It seems Trump isn't the only one prepared to play the race card to stay on top (the suss laws were always regarded as a race issue, which was why they were dropped ) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 11 Aug 19 - 09:03 AM Excellant news Boris is on the case! Morepolice more prison space to bang up offeders More stop and search to get criminals off the streets. But of course catching criminals is labelled waycist by the challenged. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49309112 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 09:19 AM THE "CHALLENGED" INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS CHALLENGED !!!! The man who has introduced the suss laws (be grateful if someone could blue-clickie this for me) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-racist-tory-leadership-muslims-letter-box-piccaninnies-conservative-party-a8929376.html You choose who to believe Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Aug 19 - 09:25 AM None of this has anything to do with brexit but as the subject has been broached. Sterner law enforcement was not the answer 200 years ago and it still isn't. On t'sixteenth day of August came the sound of marching feet Now can we get back to how brexit should be handled before yet another thread is ruined? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Aug 19 - 09:38 AM We can hope that at least a few of the gloating brexiteers suffer finacially if it happens.. Be fitting if a few have their investments wiped out as a consequence... Though, no doubt the tories will be looking after their own with bail out funds for the rich and their middle class mail/express/guido reading arse lickers... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 09:42 AM "Now can we get back to how brexit should be handled before yet another thread is ruined?" Sorry Dave - doesn't work like that Johnson's behaviour and the queen's comments on the clowns that run the country have every relevance to the matter in hand If the mods are going to close down every thread whenever we stray from their agenda us "kiddeis" (how fucking patronising can you get?) might as well leave them to make all the postings and we can sit and watch I'm getting more than a little pissed off at being censored Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Aug 19 - 09:59 AM Whilst some deletions may seem arbitrary, I think the majority of non-Iains posts that get deleted are collateral damage caused by HIS posts being deleted, leaving responses to his posts hanging, or simply by the deletion of a growing trail of negativity. Let's just see if we can discuss things in spite of him, and beware of the trap of his occasional nicey-nicey posts that appear to entice us into responding in kind. He always reverts to type once he's drawn us in. Talk past him at all times. Pretend he's not there at all. I want to talk about this topic, not be constantly bombarded with his far-right propaganda. So I'm simply not reading it. And no, Joe, it isn't his "opinions" we're getting at all. It's what I've just said. There is a difference. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jeri Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:08 AM This is how it starts, when a thread is about to be closed. Can you pull it out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:10 AM Johnson's behaviour and the queen's comments on the clowns that run the country have every relevance to the matter in hand They do, Jim. Law enforcement doesn't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:13 AM I want us to be able to talk about the future of brexit without being bombarded with nonsense from a far-right propagandist. That's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:22 AM Johnson is electioneering in the time-honoured Tory way, by pretending they're the party of Laura Norder. Tories have always been proto-populists, telling the people what they think the people want to hear, not what they can actually achieve in office. That's how they've sold brexit to the gullible, and it's worked. They found billions for the DUP, billions for no-deal prep and now billions for cops and jails. All after accusing Labour of having a magic money tree. He'll go for a quick election, but not quick enough to stop brexit. That'll be down to MPs, as long as they can take back control and restore parliamentary sovereignty... ...See what I did there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:36 AM There will be no future for brexit if the hard left continue to try to sabotage it with every means at their disposal. Typical of their tricks is to argue that those that insist the democratic will of the majority is honoured are called far right propagandists. The real propaganda is the steady drip of project fear by far left media such as the Guardian. Those are facts! Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the brexit referendum. A majority voted leave in the referendum a majority voted for article 50 in parliament The last General Election was run on a leave ticket by both parties The Brexit party took the majority of UK seats in the European election. A minority of rebellious MPs that stood for election under false pretenses by standing on a leave ticket deliberately lied to their electorate in order to sabotage Brexit. Still you cannot accept these self evident facts Still you try to argue black is white and up is down in order to impose your minority view on the majority. Time to stop your continual lies and face reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:43 AM Whether or not brexit happens, either way, rich tories and their global co-conspirators will increase their fortunes from market speculation/rigging and directly syphoning off UK Govt 'preparation funding' billions... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 10:59 AM " Law enforcement doesn't." Johnson is now using the idea of a general election to force through Brexit - he is in a win-win position either way Even if Brexit gets through, there will have to be a General election - Johnson hasn't even got the respect of his own members and General Elections to career politicians are their bread and butter - they will fall into line Race, law and order, bribes to sympathetic groups like DUP and LAW AND ORDER have now become an essential part of the armoury of the right in Britain - as they have in the US alongside building walls and carrying guns - all essential bait for populism It was expected that Johnson would re-introduce Capital Punishment when he was elected PM - he hasn't yet, but he refused to rule it out - all good stuff for lynch-mob populism Do not rule out any of these things - they are all like to be major issues in the near future Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Aug 19 - 11:30 AM So how long after a Boris election win before we can legally buy affordable hand guns and ammo at Argos... .. and free tickets to public hangings... Hooray for Boris freeing us from the tyranny of EU snowflakery... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 11:31 AM Sorry Steve I see you covered most of what I said in your posting - great minds eh !! Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: peteglasgow Date: 11 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM i've just seen the caroline lucas idea of an all-female cabinet of national unity. at first , i thought - no, that won't happen. but then wheneverything is up in the air these days.....why not? a great idea - as usual from the sanest and most hopeful of all our politicians |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM I've just picked up a parcel from the post office. An affordable guitar FX pedal, matter of factly/proudly labled "HAND BUILT IN THE EUROPEAN UNION"... Free delivery from somewhere in the EU... [Czech Republic..???] No extra import charges. Probably the last time I'll ever be able to afford one of these... I notice the box doesn't contain English instructions. This small specialist company's owner probably realises now it's not worth the cost of printing them any more...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 11 Aug 19 - 02:27 PM Judging by the fact the last six posts carefully avoid commenting on my factual post 11 Aug 19 - 10:36 AM. I assume you are all in complete agreement with me! The immutable faced with the irrefutable so to speak, jus like foxhunting! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Bill D Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:09 PM found today: LEAVER: I want an omelette. REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs. LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE] REMAINER: They’re in the cake. LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please. REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake. LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it. REMAINER: Icing is good. LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote. DAVID CAMERON ENTERS. DAVID CAMERON: OK. DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS. LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette? REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake. LEAVER: Well, get them out. EU: It’s our cake. JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now. REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out? LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette. REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought? LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now. THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it. REMAINER: How? THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake. REMAINER: Yeah, but… LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like. EU: It’s our cake. REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake. LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible. REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens. LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it. REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake? LEAVER: You lost, get over it. THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this. REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan? THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election. REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out? JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe. EU: It’s our cake. LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette. REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like. LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT. REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there. LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jeri Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:53 PM Iain, feel free to assume people don't want to talk to you. Bill, that's brilliant. (Will probably be posted at least 9 more times.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:57 PM Brilliant post, Jeri. I hope that the serially tempted are taking it in... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 11 Aug 19 - 04:14 PM Jeri I have always found it reckless to assume anything. After all, despite repeated promises that we were leaving, and multiple majority votes, we are still in the EU! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 11 Aug 19 - 04:21 PM "Brilliant post, Jeri. I hope that the serially tempted are taking it in..." Seconded. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Aug 19 - 04:57 PM I like the sound of the all woman, cross-party cabinet of national unity. Maybe without all the tub-thumping testosterone and a lot of common sense they can come up with a solution acceptable to everyone. We can but hope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:15 PM unless tory women want to get involved just to prove they can out macho the men... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:34 PM "Tory women"? Thatcher, May, Leadsom, Patel, McVey...Jeez, I'm in for nightmares tonight... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: peteglasgow Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:41 PM i don't think that bunch are invited. just ones with a heart and a bit of a brain... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:34 PM Maybe without all the tub-thumping testosterone and a lot of common sense they can come up with a solution acceptable to everyone. That's a little harsh on the womenfolk isn't it? Or did you mean: Maybe without all the tub-thumping testosterone and (with) a lot of common sense they can come up with a solution acceptable to everyone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:22 AM Yes Nigel. Whatever. Your a leave supporter aren't you? How about you coming up with a solution that would be acceptable to everyone? Or are you too busy correcting grammar? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:21 AM I had always thought the Erinyes were only found in Greek Mythology. From Lucas and Tree huggers and Hell good Lord deliver me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:15 AM "I like the sound of the all woman, cross-party cabinet of national unity." So do I. Sadly, two things will get in the way: tribalism, especially from Labour, and looking-over-my-shoulderism. The thrust of the idea is to put the country first. Got to be a good thing. I wonder whether Nicola Sturgeon will sign up. With her and maybe Yvette Cooper on board it could be a game-changer. Heidi Allen, for whom I've always had a shamefully sneaky regard, is already in. I don't sound very leftie, do I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:23 AM Your a leave supporter aren't you? Yes! How about you coming up with a solution that would be acceptable to everyone? Parliament have not managed to do that, and there are some here who insist that MPs know a lot more about the subject than their employers (us). Why should I be able to do better. In any case, it won't be possible to come up with a solution acceptable to everyone as there are those who would only be happy if we remain part of the EU, and others who will only be happy if we leave. It is a binary choice, and the voting public were asked for their view on the matter. I don't think I need to reiterate the details of the result. Trying to find a solution acceptable to all is like trying to "square the circle". Despite your call for me to solve this, I note that you have made no attempt to find a solution "acceptable to everyone". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:28 AM Nicola Sturgeon shouldn't say no. If she does, killing the plan stone dead, and Johnson gets his bloody brexit, she'll be seen as having helped him, and in turn having helped her to pitch all the better for Scottish independence, which would have a stronger case if a no-deal brexit goes ahead against the wishes of the majority in Scotland. I support Scottish independence but I want to see all politicos putting the whole country first first. No, that wasn't a mistake... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:29 AM We are not the employers of MPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:38 AM Bill, that's brilliant. (Will probably be posted at least 9 more times.) Re: Omelette Only 8 more re-posts needed then. It was posted last year (17 Oct 2018) by Dave the Gnome, but he also correctly attributed it to Gary Bainbridge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:39 AM "Why should I be able to do better." People here have been suggesting alternatives to what should be happening in the light of what IS ALREADY happening and the Brexiteers refuse even to discuss the subject Nigel The democratic idea of putting the subject to the country again to see if the minority that voted to leave would still wish to, or those who didn't vote would now do so now That for me, seems to be the very obvious step to take - if the people's decision is paramount, whatever the consequences, why isn't it important enough to ask them again? Again, it would be helpful if Brexiteers actually addressed the obvious damage that is being done -including the possible breaking up of the United Kingdom Here in Ireland we are beginning to experience the rumblings of violence that was gradually being sorted out by various parties - bow re-opened by Brexit Instead of addressing this, your leaders are blaming the backstop for yor not being able to leave and demanding it be removed Why will you not debate those issues. The deliberate obfuscation, dodging responsibility, evasion and open dishonesty connected to Brexit has now reached lethal proportiions - and still you pass the buck Bexit has become as long running as any farce put in at the Whitehall Theater - you and yours have made a laughing stock of Britain - and the joke is becoming sicker and sicker by the day Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:50 AM Nigel. I laid out my ideas in the last thread. 08 Aug 19 - 11:18 AM. I said as much in the first post on this thread. To save you the trouble of looking it up, here they are again Leave the EU Apply no tariffs to EU produce Remain in the customs union Allow movement of EU citizens but apply more stringent controls. The EU may not agree but at least this could salvage something without alienating half the electorate or more. What are you suggesting apart from like it or lump it? Speaking of which, there is another viable alternative. Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. The rest of us can stay where we belong and invite other non-partisan Europeans to fill the gaps. Over to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 07:03 AM We are not the employers of MPs Yet: Mps receive a salary Governments have no money The only source of income is that raised by taxation(in it's broadest sense for the nitpickers) ergo: We the taxpayer pay MPs, therefore we employ them. or is it that mythical labour money tree? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 07:49 AM Pound continues to soar downwards. Not long now before quid = euro... I suppose it's still just that "correction" that Nigel used to tell us about... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM Johnson is now making a thing of the new laws which is being interpreted as a sign that he is going to call a snap general election Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 08:23 AM It’s being suggested that Bozo will call a GE to take place the day after he’s crashed us out of the EU without a deal, and that the Tories and the Brexit Party will join forces in an effort to ensure a win for the Leave-Supporters. I see the break-up of the Union getting ever-closer, with Scotland going for independence and NI being re-unified with the Republic. And, presumably, what’s left - England and Wales - being re-named ‘Little Britain’? Very appropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:14 AM You're all still rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:15 AM Nigel. I laid out my ideas in the last thread. 08 Aug 19 - 11:18 AM. I said as much in the first post on this thread. To save you the trouble of looking it up, here they are again Leave the EU Apply no tariffs to EU produce Remain in the customs union Allow movement of EU citizens but apply more stringent controls. The EU may not agree but at least this could salvage something without alienating half the electorate or more. What are you suggesting apart from like it or lump it? Speaking of which, there is another viable alternative. Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. The rest of us can stay where we belong and invite other non-partisan Europeans to fill the gaps. Over to you. As you say, the EU might not agree with your suggestions, in fact probably would not agree. So it is not a viable alternative. Similarly Theresa May's 'agreement' is not acceptable to Parliament, so also not a viable option. (and the EU claim there is no other possible agreement available) Staying in the customs union would prevent us making separate deals with countries outside the EU, and so would mean we would still be importing goods with tariffs based on protectionary measures which are designed to benefit (some) EU nations. As for your final suggestion: Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. It would make as much sense for the Europhiles to go and live in Europe, and leave the UK for those who believe in the ability of the country to prosper without external control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:22 AM "t would make as much sense for the Europhiles to go and live in Europe" If I had a pound for every time I was told to go live in Moscow whenever I suggested that socialism might provide some answers I'd have retired twenty years earlier than I did The standard response of the right to the suggestion that everybody should have an equal opportunity to better their lot Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:25 AM Jim, If you care to read it again you will see it is a response to Dave the Gnome's suggestion that leavers should go and live in USA/China/Russia. So if you have to pick up on the suggestion of relocation as a partial solution I would suggest you are attacking the wrong person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Howard Jones Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the brexit referendum. Parliament voted for a non-binding referendum. The government decided unilaterally that it would treat it as binding, but that was not the decision of Parliament. A majority voted leave in the referendum The majority was very small. Many of the claims made about the EU and the benefits of leaving were exaggerated or false. No one had given a thought to the risks to the Union or the Good Friday Agreement. Given all that has happened since, and the narrowness of the margin, there is a strong possibility that there is no longer a majority to leave. a majority voted for article 50 in parliament They felt constrained by the result of the referendum, and expected that it would be possible to negotiate terms with the EU. I doubt anyone expected how much opposition there would be from Leave MPs. The last General Election was run on a leave ticket by both parties Which largely cancelled out Brexit as an election issue. The Brexit party took the majority of UK seats in the European election. In that case Leavers should be confident they would win a second referendum A minority of rebellious MPs that stood for election under false pretenses by standing on a leave ticket deliberately lied to their electorate in order to sabotage Brexit. That is opinion rather than fact. I think most MPs had made their positions clear. We now face a self-inflicted recession because half the country doesn't want to leave and the other half can't decide on what terms we should leave. I don't think an election would resolve the issue, as elections are never about single issues, especially where we are faced with a choice between Corbyn and Johnson - both, for different reasons,unacceptable to a large number of voters, including many in their own parties. The only solution is another referendum, to decide between leaving on the agreed terms, leaving with no deal, or remaining. If there was still a majority to leave, this would undermine most of the remainers' arguments and all but the most diehard would have to accept it. If Remain won, it would stave off the immediate crisis, and the last few years have shown that this is not the preoccupation of a few cranks, and we would have to reconsider and perhaps renegotiate our relationship with the EU. If Brexit is still "the will of the people", why are Leavers so reluctant to have a second referendum to confirm it? Is it because they know they fluked it, and now fear that they would lose if there were another vote? If so, is it right to force such a significant matter through against the will of the people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:02 AM "USA/China/Russia." Russia is different places since she became "freed" from Communism - now the most unequal country in Europe and the second most dangerous on the planet My point is that if people of your political leanings can tell me to go elsewhere to live to seek my ideals, then you should expect the same response in return I have never had any great problem in living away from home - have done it most of my life The problem is that I have been forced to though circumstances rather than choice Now I have the choice I am as contented as I ever was before Come in - the water's (and Guiniss') lovely - unless Brexit ***** it up That is what your system has refused to grant to the lesser well off living under it - freedom of choice Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:09 AM "USA/China/Russia." Russia is different places since she became "freed" from Communism - now the most unequal country in Europe and the second most dangerous on the planet My point is that if people of your political leanings can tell me to go elsewhere to live to seek my ideals, then you should expect the same response in return That comment was from Dave the Gnome (USA/China/Russia). I was merely responding in a like manner (or as you put it: My point is that if people of your political leanings can tell me to go elsewhere to live to seek my ideals, then you should expect the same response in return). It is not a suggestion that I have brought up from my own views, I was just putting a counter suggestion. The subject was brought up in this post: From: Dave the Gnome - Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:50 AM . . . Speaking of which, there is another viable alternative. Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. The rest of us can stay where we belong and invite other non-partisan Europeans to fill the gaps. So, again, if you feel the idea of being told to 'shut up or move out' is not a valid comment, it is Dave you should be addressing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jeri Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:49 AM There are thousands of posts on this "subject". Nothing changes, no progress is made or solutions proposed, and the people who could do something about it are not reading a former folk music forum based in the US. People just like the opportunity to pontificate, or fight, or just blather. There is no other purpose to these threads. It's really too bad the UK has no place for you to hang out. We've lost most Americans, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, and Chinese, and most others who used to be here, so you at least, aren't completely ineffective. Personally, I'd love to see a moratorium on Brexit threads here at Mudcat, but you poor folks have no other place to go. Plus, I'd also love to be rich, but that ain't hapenin' either. Have a lovely day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 12:26 PM No one on Mudcat will change outcomes. The two sides will never agree. How about a moratorium until Nov 1st. Then the fur and feathers can fly with renewed vigour! With Parliament in recess now is the silly season as exemplified below: "The former leader of the Green Party has apologised after a deluge of criticism from the left for her silly season 'unity government' proposal. "Thanks for all the comments on my proposal – I wanted to start a debate & that's happened. But it's also thrown up important questions about who is on the list and why. An all-white list of women isn't right. For that I apologise." Hilarious, and you could not make that up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 12:31 PM "but you poor folks have no other place to go." Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Brexit will run and run as long as its let - that's democracy for you Can't remember anybody complaining about Trump threads, or America's appalling gun laws or 9-11 ... quite rightly - Brexit is of no less importance to those of us whose lives it stands to ruin Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Aug 19 - 01:30 PM Thank you for a rational answer, Howard Jones. I've been seeking to understand all this, but it has been so hard to find the facts amidst the shouting. Steve Shaw, whether it's "nonsense from a far-right propagandist" or not, I want to hear rational responses to the "propaganda" so I can understand the issues and their nuances. And Steve, what do you mean when you say "We are not the employers of MPs"? That's not a challenge - I simply want to know what you mean.
For almost 23 years now, we've had a policy of not taking action against people for their political views. We figure that members of the Forum should take care of that by rational discussion, not by badgering us into banishing the current scapegoat. We haven't responded to that badgering, and we're not likely to start doing it now. Indeed, when that badgering starts to undermine our ways of managing the Forum, we're sometimes forced to take action against the badgerers. I have often said that I don't like the idea of "banning" anybody, and that's the truth. But yet, in several recent threads I have been accused of "banning" Mossback/Greg_F. I have suspended him on some occasions for specified periods of time that I stated to him, but that's all. It did get to a point where I could no longer come up with an argument to oppose his banishment, but I was not the one who banned him, and I do not know who did. So, instead of these endless and futile campaigns to get us to ban somebody or another, why not accept the fact that we just don't do that? This is a place for rational discussion, not bullying people into banishment. Please remember that we cannot allow public discussion of the moderation of Mudcat. If you wish to discuss moderation actions or policy, please contact Max or me or any moderator privately. -Joe Offer- joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jon Freeman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 01:47 PM It’s really too bad the UK has no place for you to hang out. We've lost most Americans, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, and Chinese, and most others who used to be here, so you at least, aren't completely ineffective. Not sure I agree with you there, Jeri. Ill health and even passing away have taken their toll down the bottom and, like it or not (and its not my way), newer Internet things including Facebook have proved better for most and non folk interests. There was a time when I felt that (and argued about….) a lot of old rows (remember the prayer for a mouse thread…) could be sorted by trying to provide an alternative area or indeed with the BS split here but that’s not really how things worked out. I’d tend towards a lot of “natural progression” that would have happened regardless on that That said, I (firmly on the remain side of things but fearing we will wind up with a no deal exit) do not view the MC threads as being helpful either in terms of the political problems or in terms of a friendlier “below the line” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 01:53 PM "For almost 23 years now, we've had a policy of not taking action against people for their political views." Distorting our case really isn't helping JoNobody is suggesting anybody should be take action because of political views This feller has serially abused the people who disagree with him since he joined the forum - THAT INCLUDES RACIST ATTACKS You appear now to be deliberately distorting our complaints in order to protect him You were doing less damage when you just refused to respond to our complaints It is fairly obvious that you regard racist attacks on members acceptable behaviour for this forum I suggest you don't comment any more and we'll just handle the problem in our own way Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:08 PM Joe - well clarified... cheers... pfr - an obnoxious lefty Brit who is anti censorship, and against banning folks who say stuff I don't like... I'll fight for the right to keep 'em.. so I can either ignore 'em, or fight 'em..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:25 PM "or fight 'em....." And get the threads closed - built in double jeopardy, I'm afraid Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:26 PM Mr Carroll you have been asked many times to justify your insulting labeling of people. You have yet to rise to the challenge. It has got to the stage where everyone is beginning to believe your labels. a sample of your epithets thrown at me: a racist homophobe drunkard retarded far right extremist. I ask again, show me my words that deserve those labels, not those words you think I said. It seems that recently all attempts to defend myself have been deleted on this forum while the insults arrive faster and more furious. The reality is that when a subject is posted you do not like you attack the author because you lack the nous to counter the argument. Just look at yourr eaction when Guido is mentioned. You have yet to identify errors in his articles, despite repeated requests. There are a few of you lefties follow the same road. Think how you all would squeal if I regularly attacked the extremist rag the Guardian. You do not have God on your side, you do not even have a majority on your side. By every metric you have lost. Leavers were and still are the majority and your constant vacuous arguments will not alter that fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:48 PM I don’t believe there’s any reason to ban anyone. Dealing with abusive trolls is very easy - don’t read their posts or, if you do, don’t respond to them. It’s there for all to read in the ‘Dealing With Flamers & Trolls’ section in Forum FAQs:- ”the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.” All it takes is a bit of will-power. Ignoring those who don’t deserve one’s attention is very liberating. And, of course, by not ‘getting involved’ in the shenanigans, it very quickly becomes perfectly clear who actually is a ‘bad guy’ and who isn’t, and it makes the Mods’ job much more straightforward. I recommend everyone to try it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:06 PM I'm in default ignore mode at the moment.. There's enough stress in my life, while the mrs is at home on holiday from work... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:22 PM Sorry Don't agree Trying to carry out a discussion with this happening is like trying to hold a conversation with one speaker blasting out Lord Haw-Haw and the other, Tokyo Rose Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:25 PM And the Umpire says - OUT!" This thread is no longer about Brexit. |