the uk folk revival in 2019

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:50 AM

"Trouble is, Jim, when other people say what they believe folk music is, "
Trouble is Dave that when I ask prople to tell me what they think fok music is, they can't tell me - they tell me it now means different things to different people
If folk music, particularly folk song, hadn't been as well documented as it has been, and accepeted for as long as it has for what it is, that would make sense
As it is, that argument is utter nonsense - we know what folk song is by pulling one of the eight large volumes of ;The Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection' or a copy of 'The Penguin Book of English, or Scottish, or American, or Canadian, or American or Australian Folk songs
There are many hundreds of collections of real folk songs and there are as many studies of the genre - -it is as well studied as any other cultural genre
The only way your argument can apply is to ignore the facts of what folk song is
What it boils down to seems to be that the only definition now being applied is "that's what I like to listen to and sing so I am going to call it folk and tell people what we do at our club is folk

That just doesn't make sense and, to my mind, it's sharp practice
There isn't one person I can ever remember that has responded to the fact that your non-definition - blame it on the people, definition is severely damaging the future of a music regarded by most as 'The Music, or The Voice of the People' - the cultural voice of 'ordinary' people who have created and sung songs that reflected their lives and experiences since time immemorial - a people who have long been regarded as mainly 'cultureless and non-
creative'

We knew what that the music/song we came to listen to back in the early sixties was unique - and it turned us on
We are now being told, by people who I otherwise like and respect, that that music has had its day
They/you are not offering a viable alternative - on the contrary - they/you can't agree among yourselves - cant, or refuse to give 'your knind of folk' an identity
In doing to, you have made the term 'folk' utterly meaningless - a convenient way of avoiding the bother of having to think up a title for the stuff you like
I find that totally unfathomable and totally unforgivable - a vandsalising attack on the people's culture

I hate to say it, but you are beginning to sound like an arch-Brexiteer - "that's what the people are voting for" - really ?
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:46 AM

I agree, Ray. We are not led by the nose. We are individuals. Like everyone else ;-)

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:35 AM

"The majority may be wrong but they are the majority and it is the majority perception that matters. They believe that Bellowhead and Seth Lakeman perform folk music. They do not attend lectures on the structure of unaccompanied song. They believe the BBC presenters who tell them what folk music is. And, oft times, I agree with them."

Yes I do agree largely but WE must NOT be led like a bull by its nose, folk music simply as stated by Folk music presenters is not always folk music ~ wishful thing and possibly for financial gain one way or another should be challenged

Bellowhead is/was a successful band singing and arranging traditional songs ~ largely one singer Jon Boden but with nigh a football team backing of instrumental player of the finest young artists!

Purpose entertaining folk festival and concert artists:

as soon as folk audiences are invited to wave their arms in the air it is NOT folk

Ray

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 02:29 AM

Anybody who claims they don't know what folk is really doesn't want to know

Trouble is, Jim, when other people say what they believe folk music is, you tell them they are wrong. There is also the issue of contemporary folk music, which both you and Ewan say is not folk music at all. What you need to understand is that folk is a genre that is not appreciated by most and amongst those who do appreciate it there are not that many who, like yourself, fully understand it.

The majority may be wrong but they are the majority and it is the majority perception that matters. They believe that Bellowhead and Seth Lakeman perform folk music. They do not attend lectures on the structure of unaccompanied song. They believe the BBC presenters who tell them what folk music is. And, oft times, I agree with them.

Which brings us right back to the point of the thread. If the general public see a resurgence in what they believe is folk music, then it is flagged as a folk revival. It matters not one jot whether we agree or not. Sorry.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: RTim
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 10:11 PM

This thread makes less sense everyday - and seems to have little to do with the Title...It seems to be adding nothing to the "Revival"......

Tim Radford

ps. I will probably NOT be looking, and certainly NOT reacting, anymore...

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:33 PM

Here's the link to Mary Delaney singing 'Buried in Kilkenny'.

https://www.itma.ie/digital-library/sound/buried-in-kilkenny-delaney

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:21 PM

Guest
"Jim I'm reminded of the story about Horton Barker who was banned from singing for school children because his renditions made them cry."
The sign of a good singer
Blind Travelling woman Mary Delaney was one of the finest singers we recorded - she bacame totally involved in everything she sang, forom high tragedy to bawdy belly-laughs
Her best songs was 'Buried in Kilkenny' - a superb Irish version of Lord Randal (I think it's on line somewhere)
It took half-a-dozen goes to get a full version of it - each time she sang it she broke down saying "It's too heavy"
We assumed she'd over-pitched it but in fact each time she sang it she emotionally choke up on it
A difficult experience for her, a moving one for the listener
Singers like Frank Proffitt, Horton Barker and Dillard Chandler do the same for me - knife-edged emotion each time
Horton's sister, Texas Gladden has the same effect
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:10 PM

" but see no need to run down other genres"
I don't Steve - really dont
If there is an invitation to give my opinion on it, I will do so if it's withing my experience - it not always is so my veiws are based on superficial impression - like the 'All sounding the same' thread - that's what modern music sounds like to me, just as the music I liked as a youngster sounded like to my parents
I try to work ut why I feel as I do, and if I participate in discussions I hope to come away hoping to have learned something
I have fairly catholic tastes in music - from the true Classics Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven (in that order) to the middle years of Sinatra et al and most forms of Jazz and blues

Beyond that it becomes a problem; I have been totally absorbed in Traditional singing and all that it carries - social history and universal experience in particular - that includes politics, which, luckily, is another of my interests
If anybody has any ideas that politics and folk song aren't linked, I suggest they get hold of a copy of Terry Moylan's doorstep of a book, 'The Indignant Muse' - a giant collection of songs that helped change the course of of a nation

The main problem here of course is that Folk songs has been researched now for over a century
It has been identified for what it is, has been anthologised and documented as 'folk' and even defined (though that definition is in need of overhauling)
There is no need on earth why anybody should claim they don't know what folk is - its uniqueness screams at you.
Anybody who claims they don't know what folk is really doesn't want to know
It is that which is killing off the clubs and it is that which will eventually push folk song back into the shadows where it once lurked

I expect only two things; to be able to go to a folk club and hear folk songs and I expect to be able to post to forums like this without feeling out of place
Too much to ask maybe ?

"Johnny Todd" (Liverpool children's song)
The Critics Group and The London Singers Workshop was baaased n the premise that most people could sing if they worked at it
If people who had never tried to sing before came along to our workshops, they were given Johnny Todd to use as a starter -
As good a song as it may be, there are far better on the same theme in y opinion
It is a perfect song for introduce people to the practice of singing - if you like it, using it in this way won't spoil it
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:46 PM

...a few years ago, in private, I tried accompanying Johnny Todd with chords on my keyboards (instead of simply doubling the melody or singing unaccompanied), but am 100% sure that it is not what English folkies are meant to do.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:25 PM

From the same above-linked place, English folk music, at least, involves the repetition of a tune - to tell with words or for dance. Traditionally, more-sophisticated polyphony and chords would be found, rather, in church or court - eventually, i.e. Nowadays, of course, many turn up at folk clubs and accompany their songs with chords; I have heard Martin Carthy embellish the tune on his guitar, which sounded good but is probably closer to "art song" (another very old tradition).

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:13 PM

Jim I'm reminded of the story about Horton Barker who was banned from singing for school children because his renditions made them cry.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:08 PM

Sorry WV but your definitions of 2 types don't hold water.

Traditional folk songs are those that have undergone the traditional process, whether writer is known or not. Known writer is totally irrelevant.

Contemporary folk song, largely those that have not yet had time to undergo the traditional process.

Like almost everything else there are grey areas in between that people here can argue about.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM

...I've had a packet of tic tacs in my pocket for years but when I went into a shop in the USA, I almost got a headache from the incredible number of options they stocked.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:55 PM

"I think it is referred to by some as The good old days when times were bad." (Hootenanny)...but we should surely question those who say such; I, for one, love being in a crowded pub and joining in a big chorus, or just listening and tapping a foot at a session - very similar to what folks, albeit with less options, did in those days.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:37 PM

Jim,
Congratulations! Wonderful news. Better late than never! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh!

I have spent all of my life immersed in and enjoying folk music, but see no need to run down other genres. There are good and bad in all genres and one man's meat and all that.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

Re Walkabout Verse above

"unless you go back further to a time when it was one of the main forms of entertainment, by far."

Exactly, before the advent of the gramaphone, radio and television.

I think it is referred to by some as The good old days when times were bad.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:13 PM

My apologies ...yes Roy Campbell - college was a long time ago.

Not sure about the TS Eliot letter.

I will explore the link.

Thank you for your interest in my post modette.

pleased to meet you


www.bigalwhittle.co.uk

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:59 PM

On a lighter note, I've got home and done my bedtime reading here well before bedtime!

Maybe what Stringsinger describes is a bit like the Early Music scene?

"The truth of the matter is that folk song is again a minority sport just as it was before the "Folk Scare"." (Hootenanny)...unless you go back further to a time when it was one of the main forms of entertainment, by far.

Also, folk music here has been swamped by Americanisation (which has not waned despite the unpopularity of Trump) and the recent relentless promotion of internal ethnic diversity. American country music and (c)rap are more popular in England than English folk music due to hype not quality.

My attempt at defining the terms "folk" and "traditional":

"FORKS
Folk music may usefully be divided into two main categories – Traditional (unknown composer), & Composer (known - either deceased or contemporary, which may appear as self-penned or covers)." From here - http://davidfranks.blogspot.com/p/messages.html

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

"I like to think of MacColl as part of that wonderful optimism and artistic renaissance that sprang from the aftermath of World War 2"
Ewan and Joan Littlewood were putting on agit-prop playlets ouside factory gates in the Thirties while Gracie Fields was encouraging strikers in the texitile industry to scab and go back to work
The Radio Ballads were not intended as political productions but it was the fact the it was the first time working people were allowed to speak on the radio without a script or interviewer made them just than
The folk scene was built on the desire yo make your own music rather than buying it, its imminent death is largely because that is no longer the driving force and name and fame is now the over-riding objective
The hostile takeover by those who neither understand nor care about folk music and just want to use the clubs as musical dustbins hasn't helped

At least the revival gathered enough material and information together to ensure that it won't disappear altogether (locked in cupboards no doubt), but to be honest, I would rather be around when the youngsters find the same goldmines we were lucky enough to.
We have just received the wonderful news that the National Sound Archive at the British Library had received a sizeable grant and wants to put our collection on line
Hope to get rat-arsed on the strength of that tonight
Al last people will be able to hear what Walter Pardon and Mikeen McCarthy, and Peggy Delaney and Mary Delaney..... and all those other wonderful people had so say about their songs
Wheee !!
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:50 PM

Stringsinger, your method of calling out chords with the digits of your hand is really clever. It keeps beginner guitarists, banjoists, etc., together while they chord the song. Great idea.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM

I think Al Whittle is referring to Roy Campbell as the Franco sympathiser, not 'Roy Porter', whoever he may be.

T.S. Eliot did not 'wrote a letter to the papers in support of the hanging of Edith Thompson'. What he did write can be read here: Eliot's letter to the Daily Mail.

I won't comment on their respective worth as literary figures (not my field), but neither has done very well in terms of posterity.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 01:06 PM

Sorry - should have said that Charles was using recordings of Sam Larner
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 01:05 PM

"Just that education was not my reason for running a folk club"
Is it anybody's Dave ?
The best education you can possibly have is that which comes naturally because you make   yourself receptive to it

The Closed thread was based on the idea, which was quotes as having come from Bob Davenport, that education has no place in folk song

The 'Paki' quote came from a class of schoolkids Charles Parker was talking to - I have heard similar myself, with Chinkie-music'
I have always assumed it referred to what some have called 'The clear, natural open tones of traditional singing'
I have always known from personal experience that the natural singing voice that kids instinctively use is often considered ugly, which is why so many of us were told to "sit at the back of the class" because it was deemed that we couldn't sing

If I wanted to 'educate' them I would tell them what folk song was about - they have their own imaginations to decide what it sounds like to themselves
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

I didn't say I disliked it being an education, Jim. Just that education was not my reason for running a folk club. If education was a by-product that was a bonus, but it was never my primary concern.

I am intrigued by why anyone should refer to traditional English folk song as "paki music". Can you tell us who they were referring to and what song was being performed. I hope you educated them on both the difference between the genres and their racist attitude!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:14 PM

Frank,
I don't know if you are familiar with English folk clubs(I doubt it) but the few venues that I visit normally serve a really good pint.

If alcohol minimized the appreciation of music then there would be even less traditional songs preserved than have been.

The truth of the matter is that folk song is again a minority sport just as it was before the "Folk Scare".

Even if we still had some traditional singers around appearing on a good stage in a good setting with a knowlegeable compere (few of those around) with or without alcohol you would still have a problem finding an audience. It just isn't there.

Like one of Jimmy Witherspoon's songs said "Time brings on a change, nothing remains the same".

C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:11 PM

Just because someone is a good artist - it doesn't mean they will share your political views.

Roy Porter was a brilliant poet of the 1930's and translator of Baudelaire, but he was an ardent Catholic and supporter of Franco.

TS Eliot wrote a letter to the papers in support of the hanging of EDith THompson.

They were both gifted writers.

I like to think of MacColl as part of that wonderful optimism and artistic renaissance that sprang from the aftermath of World War 2. Plus the uneasiness that came with the country voting Conservative. The interest in folksong as the birthright of the British Isles - you find it in Chips With Everything by Arnold Wesker when (unlikely) the whole of the RAF mess joins in a chorus of The Cutty Wren - much to the discomfiture of the officers, who go off in a huff.   Also you find folksong John Arden's plays. Sergeant Musgrave's Dance, and Armstrong's Last Goodnight is a play based on a folksong that many of us will have encountered in folk clubs.

What I'm trying to say is - I think its about a spirit that was abroad in England at that time. The Radio Ballads and much else in Ewan's work. The zeitgeist of the times, if you like. I don't see it as a dedication to Marxism in the abstract sense.
That actual point in time, socialism was in the air. Like in Tudor times - people found it easier to believe in God. In that period - people found it easier to believe in the prromise of a better life offered by socialism.
Ewan was a man of his times. I sort of envy him in that.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 12:06 PM

"Sorry, Stringsinger, but I did not run a small, intimate and primarily traditional folk club for many years for educational purposes"
Whether you like it or not Dave, education i one of the essentials if folk is to survive
WE were lucky in the early days because there were plenty of people of our age doing the same thing - now "our age" has become a hindrance
Traditional singing is alien to most people - I've heard youngsters describing it as "Paki music"
People need to be first won over to the 'folk sound' and to the idea that you need to concentrate on what you are hearing - and eventually, to think about it
I am constantly being given a boost when I hear a young Irish singer bring a maturity to their singing that you would expect from a veteran - nowhere near enough yet but we're getting there

We were once very moved when we took a Traveller friend to sing and tell stories to a bunch of Deptford schoolchildren
The teacher had them all sitting around Mikeen in a polite circle, until he started to sing and tell stories; gradually they all slid on their bums until they formed a tight circle at his feet - magic

Every time a singer introduces a song hhe is 'educating' his/her listeners, I see nothing wrong with extending that to workshops were this becomes more formalised
The ideal is, of course, your residents tool up to do this rather than buy it in
I jump at any chance of giving a talk - I would rather not get paid for   it because it then becomes work - though an occasional bed , I suppose, counts as payment
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 11:36 AM

Sorry, Stringsinger, but I did not run a small, intimate and primarily traditional folk club for many years for educational purposes. Although it was an education at times ;-) I ran it because I enjoyed doing it and the audience came because they enjoyed the music. Not quite sure how you would run one as an education but if you manage it, good luck to you!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM

What I think needs to be done is small concerts in available halls or theaters with a good sound operator. Look at these events as an educative rather than totally entertainment following the monetized model. There should be a vital M.C. who can place the songs into a historical perspective. It should be someone with knowledge of Jim Carroll or others who are grounded in traditional English folk music. This is why Ewan was needed. The problem with folk clubs is the alcohol which minimizes the appreciation of the music.
Maybe Cecil Sharp House could take up the project I've suggested.

Folk music needs to be taught to those unfamiliar with it. It's not basically an entertainment form of music and a small intimate house concert or small hall or theater would suffice to present traditional singers. It should run like hell from rock concerts or any commercialized approach. The audience will be small at first until they are exposed to the values that it offers. The performers should be presented not just as performance masters but in context as an example of the traditional singing and instrumental styles.
Both Ewan and Lomax did something like this in their incipient days. It persisted.

Large folk festivals and a traditional approach to folk music are antithetical. You need the intimacy and being close to the trad singer or player.

Also, in conjunction, there should be students who learn to play and sing these songs. Unless the public owns the music, it will not survive.

Think small. And allow it to grow. Someone ought to be able to capitalize these types of performances.

Lomax introduced Leadbelly to the concert stage. Pete Seeger spent a year touring with Sonny Terry to expose his talents to an audience.

At the Old Town School in Chicago, we featured Horton Barker, a tradition octogenarian who made a huge impression with his unaccompanied ballads and stories. Dick Chase added an educational dimension with his story-telling ability. They both were vital traditional American performers. They were presented in an interesting fashion with context and explanation.

I am a fan of the ballad tradition and I see it as needing context to present it properly.
If people can understand the music and the need for the tradition to persevere than it will. I think the same for Black music as well with traditional blues artists or folk artists such as Vera Hall (google her) or Leadbelly or Iron Head Baker. I believe there is an English black artist that reflects a different kind of music from that of African-American.

You've got to redefine what entertainment is. Glitz, glamor, loud noise, superficial meaningless songs, hype and ego, money and general musical decay have to be fought.

A true national spirit comes not from alienating foreigners or uneducated audiences but embracing the native culture and explaining the need for it to those who don't get it.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

So Jack what songs about fishing and the sea do Kerry fishermen sing similar in style to "Shoals of Herring"?

My guess their "go to" genre would most likely be Country & Western.

the Radio Ballads celebrated work and culture of the past and of the 50s. They celebrated a spirit and cultures in decline, no whining, but a portrayal of working people dealing with life as it was independently - Spot on Akenaton

McColl is right "Shoals of Herring" is NOT a folk song - McColl did know what Folk Songs are, as does Jim Carroll. The all to common view prevalent today that whatever folk sing is a folk song has destroyed "folk music" and to what end? Just to provide tolerant venues where the mediocre can rehash earlier attempts and aspirations of being pop stars trotting out 50s, 60s & 70s pop songs.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:32 AM

"Why shouldn't it have been a pastiche of an Irish musical idiom?"
The text of 'Shoals of Herring' was lifted directly from interviews wwith two elderly East Anglian fishermen - the tune is an adaptation of that used for 'Famous Flower of Serving Men' in the Gavin Greig Collection
In my opinion, the most moving song Ewan ever wrote, Joy of Living', was given a traditional Sicilian tune
Like most songs he wrote, they quickly took on their own identity, wherever they came from
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:24 AM

"I think it narrowed his appeal."
That is neither proven or important
You make songs to express what you want to say, not to please the punters - that has always been what distinguishes music churned out by the industry that that from the clubs (at least it was when I was actively involved)
That's not to say that writers in the pop field don't make songs that please themselves of course, but in the long run, what sells is what counts

"Its the Salman Rushdie phenomenon "
Only if you regard the mass of the British Public who are happy with the present laws governing pregnancy termination as the same as a bunch of Muslim religious fanatics
I don't
Anti abortion has long been a minority (some would say "extremist" view in Britain (or at least the Scottish and English bits) - the same is now the case with the Republic of Ireland TBTG (as they say over here)

Shoals of Herring
People have actually recorded versions of the song from local singers as 'The Shores of Erin'
MacColl was always insistent that none of his songs were folk songs, though he was happy that they were mistaken for them
In my opinion, the nearest that any of them came to becoming folk songs were those the non-literate Travellers took up and claimed as their own, though many Irish people regard 'Dirty Old Town' as being about Dublin

Travellers had a living tradition into the early 1970s and their non-literacy meant that creative their oral tradition did not fossilise the songs - they (and the Irish in general) also had strong song-making traditions-----------
A few singers described how they were present when songs were made by a group of people rather than a single composer - was a Traveller song made by a bunch of lads sitting on a grassy bank waiting for a wedding to begin, the other was made by four locals in the next villiage to here who, following an arson attack on a local police station during The War of Independence "stood at the crossroads and threw verses at each other till they came up with a seven verse song"
Incidents like this made it clear to me that it is unwise to reject past theories of folk soong making out of hand - these being perfect examples of group composition
Another theory pretty well junked was David Buchan's suggestion that some songs had no set texts but were recreated each time they were sung
We've recorded different versions of the same song from one singer, or, in some cases from related singers who learned them from the same source
It is exactly this which makes me cringe when I see earlier collectors being dismissed as ignorant or romantic

Dave
I believe, as did Ewan, that songs didn't become fork because of style or sound - they went through a process of acceptance and adaptation and eventually, (the folk process) and evolved into folk songs
Despite claims to the contrary, there are hardly any folk songs that can be traced to a definite origin
The ballads have motifs that date back beyond Homer to Ancient Egypt - and, while we know there was an oral tradition when the Venerable Bede got pissed off at cattlemen passing around a harp and singing lewd secular songs during his sermon, a reasonable knowledge of that oral tradition dated back no further than the beginning of the 20th century   
Much of the confusing nonsense surrounding the term 'folk' arised from the myth that bacause traditional singers sang everything they didn't differentiate between the different types

None of this is important to what happened in the clubs, of course - it is a matter of trying to understand our traditions by those of us who wish to do so

Sorry to have banged on about this to such length but I'm preparing for a talk in Belfast next week (details should be up on the Traditional Song Forum website) and this stuff is lying around in my head at present

I couldn't agree more with Vic's statement about The Radio Ballads and politics - Charles Parker put it in a nutshell for me when he wrote, "A good love song sung well by a worker is a fist in the face of the establishment"
Vic Gammon had similar things to say about folk song
I'm fully with both of them
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

That a learned American researcher thinks of "Shoals of Herring" as being typical of the songs sung by Kerry fisherman doesn't surprise me, I mean the words fit so well don't they!

The researcher was presumably talking about the style and the way the song was constructed, not the specific placenames. MacColl's song is like nothing in British tradition, so well done that researcher in finding something that might have inspired it. Why shouldn't it have been a pastiche of an Irish musical idiom? From somebody who thought he was imitating Japanese melody in "Schooldays End", you don't expect British nationalist purity.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM

Vic, In my opinion the Radio Ballads celebrated work and culture of the past and of the 50s. They celebrated a spirit and cultures in decline, no whining, but a portrayal of working people dealing with life as it was independently......a big difference from changing the system into some command economy totalitarianism, or as is happening here, ever more state dependence and abdication of personal responsibility.
MacColls writing was excellent but his politics....I suppose encouraged by Seeger, were simply wrong.
The main point though is that the young "folkies" like Dylan and co did not wish to be trapped in the political stranglehold espoused by the older generation of American and UK politically inspired performers. These young performers went on to fame, inspiring a generation, while the Seegers and MacColls are forgotten except in backwaters like this.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM

@ Vic

There are songs of the sort you list, but not giving the attitudes you would support and also produced by 'the folk'. I have made this point before, which seems important to me, not because I in any way support for example islamophobia but because they undermine this view that 'folk' will/has automatically express/ed sentiments of which the left/liberal left would approve.

Also @ Al, of course as I'm sure you would agree, it isn't only a radical minority of one religious group that persecutes or has persecuted those publishing material they dislike. The murder of Jo Cox and indeed death threats received by MPs across the floor of the House demonstrates this. Just been reading a book about Thomas Cromwell which at points is a list of people executed for heresy and/or treason, this is historical. So while I see what you mean by the Salmon Rushdie example, it is on my view potentially unfortunate in that it points a finger at a community subject to racist attacks on an increasing level. Think Tommy Robinson demonstrations. But you are of course right that musicians/song writers may alienate those who disagree with the views expressed in their music.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:49 AM

I think you will find, Ray, that Jim will dispute whether songs being written now or any written recently and in copyright are folk songs. I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I am sure Ewan himself said his songs were not folk songs. It is a view I disagree with but it is a view all the same. The logical conclusion from that view is that a folk revival cannot exist unless it is reviving traditional folk songs.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

Yes I do agree and there are songwriters writing good political and social comment songs Peter Morton and Ray Hearne spring to mind

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:13 AM

Akenton wrote:-
I think Ewan MacColl was a fantastic writer and Pete Seeger not so much, "The First Time" is in my opinion one of the greatest love songs and the Radio Ballads incomparable. The problem was when they began to see the music as a vehicle for political change.

I think that you are missing a big point here. If the Radio Ballads are not political, then I don't know what is. Apart from being one of the most stimulating pieces of broadcast ever put together in any form, radio or television, The Travelling People is intensely political. It is a fierce argument against inequality, the marginalisation of a minority group and a celebration of attitudes of positivity in the face of adversity. To my mind, you cannot get much more political that that.
We could do with some programmes of such intensity today to deal with racism, intolerance, attitudes towards immigrants and a host of other pressing issues.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:04 AM

The thread Matt is where it is because there is NO 2019 UK Folk revival. The OP is worth a visit by all who wish to comment. You would then discover that the thrust of it was that youngsters coming out of traditional music courses in UK Universities are failing to set up folk clubs to provide artists with paying gigs.

That a learned American researcher thinks of "Shoals of Herring" as being typical of the songs sung by Kerry fisherman doesn't surprise me, I mean the words fit so well don't they!

"Oh it was a fair and a pleasant day
Out of YARMOUTH harbour I was faring" - East Anglia

"Well we fished the Swarte and the Broken Bank" - both famous herring fishing areas in the North Sea off the coast of East Anglia

"Well we left the HOME ground in the month of June
And for canny 'SHIELDS we soon were bearing" - North Shields the fishing port for Newcastle-upon-Tyne

Be interested to hear what Kerry fisherman's song our learned researcher is using as his point of comparison. Another big difference however would be that a traditional song about the sea/fishing as sung by Kerry fisherman would in all probability have been composed by someone who actually knew and had experienced what they were singing about, whereas "Shoals of Herring" was written to order for the BBC by an actor/singer/songwriter as part of a trilogy about the North Sea fishing industry.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:35 AM

I think I can see what he's driving at.
When Vin Garbut made a big deal about writing an anti abortion song, I think it narrowed his appeal.

70's rockstar Graham Parker also alienated a lot of fans writing a song on a similar theme.

Its the Salman Rushdie phenomenon , isn't it?.. Stand up and be counted and your enemies will be drawing up the firing squad.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM

"'the uk folk revival in 2019'"
I suppose that's right, but it's hard to think of things that haven't been said - often acrimoniously, about what's happening now - we have hardly scratched the surface on the early days
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:17 AM

"Aligning Ewan MacColl with 'extreme politics' doesn't ring true to me."
The constant repetition - (by an proven extremist in his own right) has become a manta - it's chanters have never responded to what has been said here and they have produced no evidence of this accusation
Basically it is being used as a substitute for "I didn't agree with his politics"
Anybody claiming Ewan or any of us) to be extremists were obliged to prove their accusation
Now it' too late - the concentration on politics nearly got this thread closed and it cannot be allowed to happen again
I suggest it should be left there
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:47 AM

While I like talking about this stuff (see previous post above) it seems daft to be doing so in a thread called 'the uk folk revival in 2019'

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:46 AM

Aligning Ewan MacColl with 'extreme politics' doesn't ring true to me. He was a socialist. I don't recall any 'extreme politics' in his songwriting; as far as I'm aware he never called for anyone to be executed.

There were times when he was supportive of Mao's China and Stalin's Russia: like many on the left in the mid-20th Century, he was unaware of what lay behind those regimes (and like many on the left in the mid-20th Century, perhaps reluctant to face up to it).

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

Try Ireland Ake
You can here MacColl's songs being busked on the streets - many of them are regarded erroneously as traditional and Irish
The Travellers regard some of them as Traveller's songs and one learned American researcher, Horace Beck, in his ' Folklore of the Sea' referred to 'Shoals of Herring' as typical of the songs sung by Kerry fisherman
The suggestion that any artist should hide their political views for the sake of their careers sums up perfectly everything that has gone wrong with the English Revival - and would of course giv people like the excuse of describing MacColl as a "clandestine extremist communist" which would play ino your hands perfectly
MacColl's honesty and frankness were what made him so many enemies, fair enough - who wants friends who prefer dishonesty and hypocrisy
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:44 AM

I would also add that the political direction adopted by people like MacColl did their musical careers no good at all. Who outside the folk scene have much idea who MacColl was or what his writing consisted of?
Extreme politics and popular music don't really mix.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:31 AM

Oh no Al I think Ewan MacColl was a fantastic writer and Pete Seeger not so much, "The First Time" is in my opinion one of the greatest love songs and the Radio Ballads in comparable. The problem was when they began to see the music as a vehicle for political change. I think they failed to realise that there would be any "trade off", and that those like themselves would be the first in line for re-education.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:20 AM

"Take it from that Ake you aren't keen on MacColl or Pete Seeger. Got to admit -"
I take it you're still referring to me Al
Take nothing from Ake if you don't want to catch something -
I admired Pete Seeger very much and I was folk-weaned on Ewan and present when he and The Critics Group did the work that could change the fortunes of folk song for the better, if we were allowed to discuss it without all this nonsense
Pat and I spent a fscinating hour or so with Pete, Ewan Peggy and Kirsty one afternoon
Ewan and Peg were recording an album and Pat and I had been asked to help out on the Choruses of 'White Wind' - Ewan's South African epic in their home studio
When we finished, Pete and Toshi walked in on a visit to do a concert
The difference between Ewan and Peg's and Pete's approaches was fascinating too observe
We were also lucky to have met Peggy's father, Charles while we were interviewing Ewan - different again
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 08:24 PM

I'm a bit of an outsider when it comes to this "folk revival" malarkey. I've been involved in mostly Irish traditional music meself, though I'm an aficionado of a goodly number of English/Welsh/Scottish turns. I mean, haven't we been using that "folk revival" term for about fifty years? Dammit, if we haven't revived it by now... And another expression that grates a bit is "folk scene." Let's enjoy what we do and what we love, say I, without resort to these pretentious terms.

I'll definitely get me coat, so don't shoot...

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 06:46 PM

"Still in my song bag!"
Keep it there Al - the world outgrew it - it's not folk anywaty
Jim

well its not England for the main part behind all these Country Music TV Channels. I think you'd be surprised how well Oh Lonesome me would go down at the next session!

Take it from that Ake you aren't keen on MacColl or Pete Seeger. Got to admit - I thought they were both great. I had nothing but kind words from both guys. Still - you must speak as you find.

But both of them did great things. Pete....there was the songwriting of course - but what I really loved was his banjo version of Blue Skies on the Goofing Off Suite album. And macColl - his songs are still everywhere.

I think its a bit like the the painting of the Mona Lisa - you don't have to be a Christian and subscribe to the belief system that inspired the painter, to appreciate.