BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 07:13 AM

Obviously nothing to do!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 04:36 PM

Well why don't you find something then Bonzo?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 05:04 PM

Lefties are so obsessed with looking at things from a negative angle that when someone comes around and decides to interpret it from a positive angle, they’re ready to crucify the person.!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jun 22 - 06:17 PM

So you think that failing to help the Grenfell victims and the tens of thousands of people facing the same plight is a positive thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 02:48 PM

As far as I have read the government is helping.
They have said that the builders who took shortcuts to save on building costs should fund the remediation work should be those who pay for it.
Some very large firms have already agreed, and put forward budgets to do the work.
The work of remediation has started in many places, but will not be a 'quick-fix'

Industry to pay

Builders agree to pay
"Under the new agreement, which will become legally enforceable, over 35 of the UK’s biggest homebuilders have pledged to fix all buildings 11 metres+ that they have played a role in developing in the last 30 years.

For the companies yet to make the pledge, the Secretary of State has also confirmed there is little time left for them to sign up, and that those who continue to refuse will face consequences if they fail to do so.

As set out in January, a new government scheme will also see industry pay to fix buildings where those responsible cannot be identified or forced to in law. This follows previous confirmation that plans for a 30-year loan scheme paid for by leaseholders would be scrapped."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 03:44 PM

Exactly Nigel Parsons, once again the lefties take the negative angle!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 04:23 PM

Not a quick fix? When lives are at stake? It's been five years, Nigel...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 06:16 PM

And in those five tears there have been no repeats.
The work needs to be done (to this I agree). But it must take time to do, just as it took time to initially build the premises.

Your comment, to which I was responding, "So you think that failing to help the Grenfell victims and the tens of thousands of people facing the same plight is a positive thing?"
Things are being done to help those in a similar plight!

As with anything else, you are looking for a reason to bash the (Tory) government.
You Fail!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 06:28 PM

No I'm not! I'm just pointing out that thousands of people, five years after the disaster, are still living in potentially dangerous conditions, and thousands are unable to move out of their flats because they are unsaleable. Five years on, Nigel!

Yes there have been no repeats. But Grenfell was not a repeat either, despite the fact that tens of thousands were living in dangerous conditions for many years before. That is sheer good luck, not, as you seem to imply, the result of the safety the housing. Just ask yourself how you'd feel if you lived in a flat that was cladded dangerously, and in which you had no option but to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Jun 22 - 06:56 PM

No!
You take a trade unionist view of the situation. Something is wrong, someone must be responsible and must immediately put it right.

The actual situation is:
There is a problem.
To what extent does it need action?
Do all properties with this problem need action? (no, the cladding was already passed as 'safe' for buildings below a certain height.)
Who was responsible for the problem? Can we make them pay to correct it?
If we can get them to pay to correct it (or even get the government (taxpayer)) pay to correct it, how long will it take?
To expect that, once the problem was understood, everything would be sorted out instantly, suggests a very naïve viewpoint.

As with almost everything else, the Labour party may rant, but they suggest no 'better way' to deal with matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 02:54 AM

That is nonsense Nigel. The Labour Party cannot do anything as the Tories have a massive majority and it should not take 5 years to fix the issue anyway. You are trying to justify the unacceptable. Oh, and as far as I know, Steve is not an official Labour Party spokesman but has put up an alternative - get it fixed!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 11:19 AM

but has put up an alternative - get it fixed!
That is not an alternative. The government are working to 'get it fixed'. Steve is now complaining that it is not being done more quickly.
Doubtless there is a limited workforce capable of doing the work. If any builders could do the work, they could be drafted in to increase that workforce, at a cost to other projects, and house-building.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 11:26 AM

Of course it is an alternative. Delay fixing it by over 5 years or get it fixed sooner. Seemples.
Your phrase "If any builders could do the work, they could be drafted in to increase that workforce" is very telling though. Maybe we can get some builders in from Poland. Oh, hang on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jun 22 - 07:21 PM

I support the RMT strike action. The railway workers kept on working right through the pandemic at great risk to themselves, and many died. Most railway workers haven't had a pay rise in two years, and many of them in three. The negotiations are fake: the government calls all the shots and will not allow rises about 3%, while inflation is running at 9%.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 12:09 AM

Hear hear, Steve. Herself and I separately likened it to the way Maggie Hatchett chose her ground carefully before precipitating the miners' strike, thus (in the words of a police community relations officer on the spot at the time) setting back the clock by fifty years. Unions have been on the back foot ever since ....

.... and I'd better stop there before my keyboard catches fire. If you want to be heard, people, less shouting and more careful analysis. It gets awfully loud, as well as terribly lonely, in the middle ground.

"Be fair, Citizen G'Kar. I am a soldier; I carry my sword in my hand. You carry your sword in your mind and in your heart, which gives you a two-to-one advantage in arms." [Corrections humbly invited.]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 05:38 AM

When tories spout on about RMT workers on already massive salaries holding the country to ransom, they are assuming that ticket office assistants, train cleaners, station/platform cleaners are on the same wage as highly skilled signal technicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 05:58 AM

I don’t believe they’re ‘assuming’ anything, SPB, they’re perfectly aware that ancillaries are lowly-paid. The trope they’re pushing about ‘highly-paid railway workers’ is just anti-union propaganda, the ghost of the Beast of Grantham raising its foul head once more.

Those of us who weren’t so stupid as to allow ourselves to be conned by the propaganda of the Brexit-Bunch predicted that, once we were out of the EU, the attacks on workers rights in general, and trades-unions in particular, would begin in earnest…and current events are proving us right.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 07:19 AM

And, at the same time that Tory Ministers are shooting their mouths off on TV, making appalling smears against ordinary workers and union members who, at the risk of their own lives, kept the nation’s transport systems moving right through the pandemic, Johnson is proposing removing the cap on the bonuses paid to the bankers - the very people whose greed and recklessness brought the country’s financial system to its knees in the crash of 2008.

Do these foul, disgusting Tories have no shame at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 07:44 AM

> Do these foul, disgusting Tories have no shame at all?

It's bred out of them, or beaten out of them in Eton. Please see the first entry in my ditties thread ---

--- more later. Dinner has been Declared.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 10:33 AM

I'm delighted to see that least three of Starmer's junior front-benchers have defied his disgusting instruction and have gone to stand on picket lines. He's bloody useless and he's going to put Johnson back in power next time around. If he dares to discipline them I'll probably leave the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 03:43 PM

Yes I think Tory governments for the forseeable future !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 21 Jun 22 - 07:33 PM

not got long left then, Legs? try and make the very best of every day spreading your love around the world. Or tax advice if you prefer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 22 Jun 22 - 01:50 PM

"Those of us who weren’t so stupid as to allow ourselves to be conned by the propaganda of the Brexit-Bunch predicted that, once we were out of the EU, the attacks on workers rights in general, and trades-unions in particular, would begin in earnest…and current events are proving us right."

RMT SETS OUT SIX KEY REASONS FOR LEAVING THE EU

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 22 - 04:36 PM

The RMT were plain wrong and the quote you juxtapose is plain right. It doesn't mean that the RMT are wrong about everything all the time. Point taken, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jun 22 - 04:21 AM

it is a typical tory press tactic - allow government to get away with murder, but if labour or a union makes the slightest wrong call, plaster it over the front pages for months.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 22 - 07:21 PM

I must say, I'm very impressed by Mick Lynch. He puts himself out there all the time, he's calm, measured and in control of the facts, unlike almost everyone who is put up against him or who interviews him. His appearance on Question Time was very competent, and the only conclusion I could come to from the programme is that Fiona f*****g Bruce is a dyed-in-the-wool Tory.

Subject: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: GUEST,The Sandman
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 03:29 AM

massive swings against Boris Johnson AND THE UK cONSERVATIVES
HIP HIP HURRAH
.Wakefield constituency
Registered        69,601
Turnout        39.1% (Decrease 25.0 pp)
                        
Candidate         Simon Lightwood         Nadeem Ahmed         Akef Akbar
Party         Labour         Conservative         Independent
Popular vote         13,166         8,241         2,090
Percentage         48.4%         30.3%         7.7%
Swing         Increase8.6%         Decrease17.0%         

Tiverton and Honiton constituency
Turnout        52.3% (Decrease 19.6 pp)
                
Candidate         Richard Foord         Helen Hurford
Party         Liberal Democrats         Conservative
Popular vote         22,537         16,393
Percentage         53.1%         38.4%
Swing         Increase38.6%         Decrease21.8%

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 05:14 AM

Well I'm glad that Wakefield went back to Labour, but, let's face it, the scale of the victory was underwhelming. The fact that there was a less-than 40% turnout and a hardly resounding majority speaks volumes about disillusionment with the disreputable Boris Bunter but is decidedly not a ringing endorsement of Starmer. According to the Today programme, ten by-elections during the coalition recorded bigger swings to Labour than this one, yet Miliband still lost next time out. Labour is in big trouble and Johnson must be smirking over his coffee this morning.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 05:17 AM

Good results. The Liberal result will probably attract more attention but the Labour victory is much more impressive. The Tories were tarnished by Johnson, naturally, but also by the previous MP being a sad little twat who got caught watching porn at work. If the Liberals can't win a by-election in a seat like this in the South-West of England mid-way through a Tory government there really is no point to them at all.

The Labour result is very heartening. Labour were much more damaged and tarnished by the previous MP being a pervert and sexual predator. By comparison, the previous Tory MP for Tiverton's actins were pathetic but not much more. If Labour can overcome the stigma that could have attached to them in a seat where people deserted Labour in droves under Jeremy Corbyn, the maybe Starmer's leadership and strategy is on the money after all.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 06:10 AM

"The Labour result is very heartening. Labour were much more damaged and tarnished by the previous MP being a pervert and sexual predator"

The previous MP was Imran Ahmad Khan, a conservative, not a labour member of parliament

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 06:12 AM

PS This should really have been posted in the one thread we are allowed below the line. No doubt the Moderators will move it when day arrives in the US.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 06:41 AM

Thanks for the welcome news, Dick. I was out late last night playing, and hadn't kept pace with the wider world. So I got up with something of a leaden feeling in my stomach (remembering all too clearly being greeted first thing in the morning by the unwelcome Brexit results back in '16, which seared itself into my psyche, and enacts instant-replays at key times).

I'll just look at Mudcat first, I thought, my procrastination-instinct kicking into high gear. And lo and behold!

I know this isn't music, but maybe let it float down the top column one time before kicking it downstairs (when the inevitable arguments start). It is crucial not only to Britain, but is of interest the rest of Europe too, for very good reasons.

Think I'll put something special in my coffee to celebrate.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 07:00 AM

Labour won not because they're impressive (which they are clearly not) but because the Tories keep scoring own-goals. Nowhere near good enough I fear. 12% swing on a 39% turnout. Let's not get excited.

Steve (Labour Party member)

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 07:48 AM

Raggytash

My humblest apologies. You are of course correct. This is one of the seats the Tories took off Labour when Labour was led by Jeremy Corbyn.

Senior moment. I must have been thinking of Keith Vaz.

Steve Shaw - yes, not a great swing but I'll take it. Is the glass half empty, or is it half full, or is it just too small?

I agree, though. Labour really need to stop being timid about supporting workers.

If the last Labour government has introduced PR we might not have a Tory government now at all.

Subject: RE: uk Conservatives lose two by elections
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 09:56 AM

It's something to sing about......

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 10:44 AM

Thought we would see you all down here.
Welcome to the BS section.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 01:08 PM

The winner of the Wakefield by-election got just under 5000 votes FEWER than the Labour candidate in the 2019 election - who LOST that election. Since 1945, until last night, no Labour candidate in Wakefield has attracted fewer than 17000 votes. Last night's winner got just 13166 votes. I suggest that any optimism about this, or anyone claiming that it's a pointer to a future Labour victory, simply means that cloud cuckoo land is alive and well and filling up with valiant Labour hopefuls. The Tories will quickly realise that Boris is safe as long as Keir is at Labour's helm. As long as he's there, the only way the Tories can lose would be if half the cabinet turned out to be mass murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 24 Jun 22 - 08:29 PM

Apologies for not being on the same scale as tory corruption and contempt, but this is much more immediate.

Trying to get home tonight I was waiting for a N7 bus, but it arrive behind a 218 bus, the upshot is that the N7 pulled away before anyone had the chance to walk along the length of the 218 bus.

When I got home I rang TFL, but the operator refused to even let me state my complaint before hanging up I then contacted the bus company anf all they said was contact TFL as they don't give a **** about how their employees treat passengers. In the end it is all down to the scum who voted tory which resulted in London buses being privatised.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jun 22 - 02:41 AM

I do think there is a big risk of over-optimism from Labour about the Wakefield result, but I would not rely too heavily on the number of votes cast. The number of votes in by-elections is generally substantially lower than in general elections. Nevertheless, I do support Steve's caution that this not looking strong enough to suggest a Labour majority - or maybe not even a hung Parliament - as it stands. In addition, I think if Johnson is replaced before an election a lot of the anger against the Tories will fall away and the battles will be much tougher.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 22 - 06:12 AM

Exactly. I also think that much of the anger will fall away anyway. If a week is a long time in politics, then two years is an eternity.

The apocryphal tale (invented just now by me) is that when Starmer told his shadow cabinet that they must refrain from calling him boring, he couldn't be heard above the snoring... (though it wouldn't surprise me to hear that it's been invented several times already in tabloid cartoons).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 22 - 09:03 PM

We almost had a hung Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jun 22 - 03:14 AM

Maybe my language was a tad OOT, but at the same time I was a tad peeved about how I was treated but the bus service (+2 others from the Trade Union Club o0f which I am a member).

I still maintain the right to direct my ire in part to the driver, much more to the privatised bus companies who hold themselves above critcism, and not even being prepared to let a pleb like my to voice my complaint, let alone respond to it, and also to those who voted for bus service sin London to be privatised.

Anyway ****ing a******es like me are a an inferior race to my betters, and I will try, but can't promise to never criticise my lords and masters who are clearly my superiors who are there to be obeyed without comment or question.

Actually, after this sarcastic passive-aggressive outburst, I probably wo't try that hard either while I still (just about) live in a free and so far non-fascist state where I can safely protest - individually oir collectively without being subject to recourse taken against me by yhr state; something that johnson and his cronies would do well to remember we enjoy at the cost of countless human lives in conflicts over the 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 22 - 05:49 AM

Whilst I wouldn't characterise every Tory voter as scum, I can well see your frustration. A couple of years ago I was repeatedly fobbed off by Saga when I was trying to get a refund for a covid-cancelled (by them) holiday. In the end I ferreted around on google and eventually found the email of the managing director. I emailed him one Sunday afternoon with my complaint. He replied almost instantly, and the whole of the money was refunded to my bank account first thing on the Monday morning. I don't make a habit of that, but I do tend to stick with it, and don't usually have to go right to the top, but every now and again...

I would characterise every Tory voter as either consumed with selfish self-interest or as utterly deluded. How can anyone, seeing the way the fat, disreputable, lying idiot in Number Ten behaves still think that he's just an OK bloke and well worth voting for? Beats me. Third term my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 27 Jun 22 - 08:15 AM

Grenade time:

> We almost had a hung Congress.

Were they (nearly) hanged like sheep thieves, or hung like ripe game? I remember hearing of de Pfeffel being caught whistling Waltzing Matilda in the corridors of Number Ten; I wondered at the time whether anybody reminded him of the eventual fate of the protagonist of that song.

"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately."

                        -- Benjamin Franklin

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:29 AM

The main protagonist of that song committed suicide by jumping in the billabong. He avoided any possibility of hanging.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 05:57 AM

If only...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 06:09 AM

Latest news - resignation of tory deputy chief whip due to his appalling drunken behaviour at the £1,542/year membership Carlton Club at the same time that millions of working people are struggling to pay their rents, heating bills and feeding their families. Pity he won't do the decent thing and resign as an MP as well.

Pincher by name, pincher by nature... oh the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 08:06 AM

South Croydon (Croydon) council by-election result:

CON: 42.9% (+2.9)
LAB: 27.0% (-2.1)
LDEM: 14.7% (+0.6)
GRN: 8.8% (-5.5)
IND (Pelling): 5.2% (+5.2)
UKIP: 0.8% (-1.6)
IND (Samuel): 0.6% (+0.6)

Votes cast: 3,045

Conservative HOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 08:52 AM

Shall I remind you Bonzo of just how many seat the conservatives lost at the last council elections at the beginning of June .............

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Jul 22 - 08:55 AM

10? ................................ no

20? ..................................no

50? ......................................no

100? ..........................................no

200? ................................................no

300? .......................................................no

400? ..............................................................no


It was ONLY 399 seats the conservatives lost.