BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 08:07 PM

Hamas hardly started anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 05:52 PM

Thanks for what the mods and background digital rehabbers are doing to get the thread back. I thought it was a better than average thread on the unhappy doings in the current Middle East.

Meanwhile, I am repeating my link to the Israel/ Lebanon/ Hezbollah fracas of 2006: A History of Violence

Reason being, there were great parallels in instigation by terrorist organization, response across the border by Israel, capture of soldiers for ransom, ultimate withdrawal by Israel with a great deal of infrastructure damage to Lebanon. I suspect that Israelis leaders are considering past experiences in Lebanon and Gaza WRT their course of action right now.

If you like intersting movies, an interesting Israeli movie that came out after the Lebanon affair was: "Waltz with Bashir" It is important to mention that the movie was based on incidents in 1982 but involved commentary that was heavily influenced by the 2006 war.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Nov 23 - 02:57 PM

Let's not overlook the fact that the main and continuing victims of HAMAS have been the Palestinian people. In very large and increasing numbers. There is a difference between knowing this and doing something about this. And it applies to every act of aid, every journalistic interview, every artistic act, and from cradle to grave.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Nov 23 - 03:47 PM

I was reminded that Thomas Friedman has been commenting on Mideast Events. He has a great and thorough background on this subject recent podcast (link is to transcript) .

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Nov 23 - 10:14 PM

Maybe a release of hostages would alleviate violence and tensions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Nov 23 - 05:27 PM

I just spent some time texting my little heart out and lost it all when my computer re-paged or something, probably my own fault. Taking a beat cause I have a life and some ahead of winter work to do outside on maybe one of our last days without snow all over everthing.

Back tomorrow maybe

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 01:12 PM

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

Golda Meir

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Nov 23 - 11:29 AM

Hamas has several hundred hostages yet to be released. Still launching rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 07:20 PM

I am not too believing in any of the governmental statements and news reports parroting them. I take seriously that Israel wants to 'get Hamas' and they link most humanitarian/ cease fire moves as protective of Hamas either allowing them to regroup or gain physical protection.

Most of what I'm listening to is American National Public Radio. I also have access to Free Speech Radio/ Democracy Now.

I mentioned the 2006 War with Hezbollah in the previous Hamas Thread. While there were parallels and bombings in Southern Lebanon that left considerable smashed infrastructure, I have no capability of imagining Gaza right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Nov 23 - 01:20 PM

Thompson:

You are right about BBC. I should have definitely included them. Beyond current affairs, BBC is an INCREDIBLE RESOURCE on multiple levels and is remarkably available. To flesh out my previous response, I should say that after midnight local time the local public broadcasting station airs BBC World Service through to 0500. BBC has its own perspectives.

I also have the DW (German: Deutsche Welle) app on my phone. I consult it regularly for another perspective and sometimes they have stories that I would not run into otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 12:07 PM

The book "A Problem From Hell" by Susan Power credits a Polish Jew named Lemkin with (re?-) coining the word 'genocide' in the 1920s in light of the fallout from the Armenian mass deaths at the hands of the Turks circa WWI. He went on to become a lawyer and concern himself with defining this as an issue.

I haven't tried NGRAM viewer but look forward to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 12:20 PM

"unforgiveable on an industrial scale"

Sounds like we're back-tracking to blame Israel for the Hamas Oct7 invasion. The latest 'reports' are that Israelis are in battle with Hamas gunmen and where is this happening? Near the hospitals which Israel claims are the Hamas bases.

Time to ask: "WHAT WOULD YOU DO?"

And credit is deducted when your answer involves a time machine.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Nov 23 - 04:57 PM

Thompson: You are the nation of Israel. Alternatively, you can take over the body of the Prime Minister of Israel. After the terror attack of October 7, 2023 and the brutal execution of over 1000 of your citizens, YOU get to respond. What would you do and how far would you take it? And how would you react to world opinion if it didn't side with you as much as you thought it would or should?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 07:59 PM

I think the atrocity is continuing - The Hamas atrocity. They are reportedly fighting in the hospital environs, if not the hospital itself. They undoubtedly have food and energy for themselves but not for those served by the hospital. AND. . . They have released no hostages. They may get a pass from you, but not from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 01:31 PM

Cyberwar tactics may emerge regarding links to the Hamas-Israeli war of annihilation and terror unless one can trust the source.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 06:39 PM

https://www.timesofisrael.com/khamenei-when-iran-speaks-of-wiping-out-israel-it-refers-to-regime-not-jews/

I'm dubious.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 07:22 AM

Global war on Jews

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 10:18 AM

My first post was to beware of folks who take sides early.
If you were Jewish, by the one drop of blood rule, you would know of the victimization of Jewish victims for the last 2,000 years. You might even take the Hamas side out of a denial complex. More likely you were taught what to think of Jews in childhood. I knew little kids of 9 who knew that Jews killed Jesus. If you are for war for a penny you are for war for a pound. Blaming one side only for the horror of war is foolish and hateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 10:43 AM

Ultimately what is to be done? One can strive to be part of the rational solution.
All the while a wise person knows that the silly or horrid beliefs will often persist until the believer dies. Peace is a long game. The crime of war itself is a short-term grab.
Without Bebe, the two-state solution has a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 23 - 03:23 PM

DON'T is a demand that is useless What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans and other democracies but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time.

I speak of peace because of the new face of war. Total war makes no sense in an age when great powers can maintain large and relatively invulnerable nuclear forces and refuse to surrender without resort to those forces. It makes no sense in an age when a single nuclear weapon contains almost ten times the explosive force delivered by all of the allied air forces in the Second World War. It makes no sense in an age when the deadly poisons produced by a nuclear exchange would be carried by wind and water and soil and seed to the far corners of the globe and to generations yet unborn.

Today the expenditure of billions of dollars every year on weapons acquired for the purpose of making sure we never need to use them is essential to keeping the peace. But surely the acquisition of such idle stockpiles--which can only destroy and never create--is not the only, much less the most efficient, means of assuring peace.

I speak of peace, therefore, as the necessary rational end of rational men. I realize that the pursuit of peace is not as dramatic as the pursuit of war--and frequently the words of the pursuer fall on deaf ears. But we have no more urgent task.

Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or world disarmament and that it will be useless until the leaders have a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must reexamine our own attitude--as individuals and as a Nation--for our attitude is as essential every thoughtful citizen who despairs of war and wishes to bring peace. We need to know what to do after hostilities. We need peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Nov 23 - 03:34 PM

There could be a collective of Muslim nations (not Iran or Lebanon)
that could set up interim governance In post-war Palestine with the aid of reparations from Israel and the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 06:59 AM

Proportionality applies to the concept of not using weapons of mass destruction in response to small weapons. The sad progress of war is to escalate and bring overwhelming forces to bear. To respond in equal proportion to terrorism does not exist.
Cry crocodile tears and be at war with anyone who does not agree with you but peace requires more rationality than war.

There is danger in taking sides but when you do, you are likely to become more strident and hardened. This is not a war against Israel or Zionism, it is a war against Jews in the global reaction. This is the actual thought process of the supporters of Terrorism. Even the Hamas glorifiers on social media have an agenda they can not hide.


The man who spoke the words of peace below was shot in the head while next to his wife because he was a foe of war that stymied the warmakers.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 10:12 AM

I believe in free speech so go ahead and mutter bitterness. The consequences of speech are more dire for the young than the washed-up and retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 04:31 AM

We all know the jokes about military intelligence. In the sixties, the US still had WWII generals like Curtis Lemay who welcomed a nuclear war with the Soviets. Stupidity in militaries still abounds.
Israel has our most advanced cyberwar tools along with autonomous drone hives. With Stuxnet hacking tools Israel stupidly left it exposed so it could be traced.
What is called the fog of war is really the stupidity of war.
The same factors of a schoolyard fight still apply. Who threw the first punch, pick on someone your own size, bullies have the upper hand...
There is nothing more stupid than a smart bomb. It knows no morality.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 23 - 08:21 AM

Biden has resisted requesting a cease-fire by Israel. His popularity has now dropped below 37%.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 07:51 AM

What's happening: "If there's any chance of us being able to act constructively, to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas" .

"That what Hamas did was horrific and there's no justification for it. And what is also true is that the occupation and what's happening to Palestinians is unbearable."
In an interview clip, Barak Obama touched on the significance of recognizing anti-Semitism in the response to this conflict, as well as the Palestinians without any connection to Hamas' actions who are dying as a result of the war.
I urge Americans to speak to people whose opinions differ from their own, especially outside of social media.

"I would rather see you out there talking to people, including people who you disagree with," he said.
"If you genuinely want to change this, then you've got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side and listen to them and understand what they're talking about."

Barak Obama

Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 No new Trump threads pt III
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 23 - 01:23 PM

A pro-Hamas hacktivist group has been observed using a new Linux-based wiper malware dubbed BiBi-Linux Wiper, targeting Israeli entities amidst the ongoing Israeli-Hamas war. "This malware is an x64 ELF executable, lacking obfuscation or protective measures," Security Joes said in a new report published today.    3 days ago

Subject: RE: Trump INDICTED x4 No new Trump threads pt III
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 23 - 12:50 PM

https://www.c4isrnet.com/cyber/2023/10/31/hacktivists-join-the-front-lines-in-israel-hamas-war/#:~:text=Outside%20groups%20with%

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 01:38 PM

Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you sit back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
While the young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
That even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death will come soon
I'll follow your casket
By the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

Bob Dylan.

Netanyahu knows damn well the Nazis SS killed 10 for every soldier killed by the resistance. SOMETIMES MUCH MORE. Bibi is almost at that 10 to 1 body count already. I hope that he dies and his death will come soon. I'll watch his casket by the pale afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 06:27 AM

Ben Ferenz introduced the word globally when he used it at the Nuremberg trial. As I said before Ben was not the inventor of the word. The longhand copy of the worksheet of the genesis of the word still exists.

What naked power can put the long-standing Middle East wars on time out? Who or what can replace all other truths with their own?

An Arab alliance, the UN, the US, Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 09:06 AM

Hamas was supposedly elected by Palestinians. Also Hamas has the rhetorical support of Vladamir Putin and Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 23 - 10:32 AM

While I lived here McNamara could be seen walking the DC parks like a sad apparition in an overcoat before his final departure. I believe he was plagued by empathy that came to him too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 23 - 03:40 PM

A time machine intervention would have to go back thousands of years before the Crusades. Even then I suspect a prehistoric war of a racist or religious kind.

Subject: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 01:19 PM

The original thread is suffering from a disk error glitch and I'm seeing stray remarks come up in other places. The rules still apply - stick to the subject, don't post a coherent remark about the war following a jab at someone you disagree with because the whole thing will vanish. If the other thread returns before this one is too unwieldy, they can be merged.

The Times of Israel has reported that following forensic examination of a skull piece that a German-Israeli young woman is most likely dead, that she couldn't live without that piece of her skull. This is not the news of hostages that the world is waiting for. I don't read the local papers much (the Times or Al Jazeera) these days because it they are conducting a propaganda slug-fest.

And in a truly bizarre twist, a mob in Dagestan pushed into an airport where a plane landed from Israel. They were looking for Jews. Putin calls meeting after mob storms Dagestan airport looking for Israelis on jet from Tel Aviv.

MOSCOW (AP) — Russian President Vladimir Putin called a meeting of security and law enforcement officials Monday, the day after a mob stormed the airport in the southern region of Dagestan after a flight from Israel landed there.

Hundreds of angry men, some carrying banners with antisemitic slogans, rushed onto the tarmac of the airport in Makhachkala, the capital of the predominantly Muslim region, on Sunday night, looking for Israeli passengers on the flight from Tel Aviv, according to Russian news reports.

More than 20 people were injured, with two in critical condition, Dagestan’s Health Ministry said. The injured included police officers and civilians, it said. . . . The crowd that rushed onto the tarmac Sunday night surrounded the jet belonging to the Russian carrier Red Wings with seemingly little resistance from the police, Russian news outlets reported.

Video and photos on social media showed some in the crowd waving Palestinian flags, and some trying to overturn a police car. Others held handwritten banners saying, “Child killers are not welcome in Dagestan” and “We’re against Jewish refugees.”

There also were shouts of “Allahu akbar!” or “God is great.”

Some in the crowd, which also was seen roaming the terminal, examined passports of arriving passengers, apparently in an attempt to identify those who were Israeli. The riot was later broken up.

Meanwhile Putin is trying to suggest that the remaining Jewish residents in Russia are safe. Are there any Russian-Israeli hostages reported? Is there such a thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 01:18 PM

I don't hear any supporters of Palestinians shouting "Release the Hostages!"

Then you're not looking. Over 200 arrested at Grand Central Terminal during rally for ceasefire in Gaza
Splitting hairs, but here, at a protest for a cease fire, a passenger was quoted that they needed to go farther:

One passenger said he was not only angry because of delays but also, he says, because the demonstrators aren't talking about what caused the war - the terrorist group Hamas killing 1,400 Israelis and taking others hostage.

"Pre-mediated massacres. God bless you, my son. Hope you see the light," the passenger told a demonstrator.

Part of the problem is that the Israelis aren't discussing the negotiations to release their own people who are hostages.
Israel will not agree to a cease-fire, Netanyahu says, as fighting continues in Gaza

It sounds like Netanyahu has written them off. Or is everyone being quiet to not jinx negotiations?

Israeli officials would not comment on the status of negotiations over a deal to free hostages.

In Israel, Netanyahu has faced considerable political pressure over his handling of the conflict, including his limited contact with the families of people killed or taken hostage. And he is seen by critics as attempting to deflect responsibility for the deadliest attack on civilians in Israel's 75-year history.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 07:52 PM

Either way. Where's the outrage?

For your particular focus in this big ugly debate? You expressed it, we answered, then clarified, and moved on.

Hamas started it, Israel needs to finish it, but they can do that by stopping the killing, negotiate hostage release, and following through on the two-state things they've been pressured for decades to do and sometimes promised to do, only to back out (after letting some Israelis misbehave and throw a wrench in the peace works - every single time. It's so predictable). Netanyahu is a hot mess and the solution will probably come after he's out of office (because I'm willing to bet the internal pressure is immense for him to resign right now.)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 11:07 PM

Hamas started everything this time. Pick your starting point, and say why. The issue here is the assault on civilians on October 7, 2023. War crimes were committed on October 7, and everyone has behaved badly ever since. But Hamas did indeed start it with terrorist attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Nov 23 - 08:23 PM

Netanyahu seems to have the bit in his teeth, the missile controls in his hands, and is ignoring anyone who tells him he needs to back off and spare civilians.

And in other awful news, the Palestinian workers in Israel who were detained by Israel were deported to Gaza, their papers and permission to work erased. This comes from the American ABC news network, but they source the Hamas Health Ministry, so the numbers are probably inflated.

Israel deports thousands of Palestinian workers back to Gaza's war zone
Israel has deported thousands of workers to the besieged Gaza Strip, capping what many described as harrowing weeks trapped in legal limbo since their detention when the Israel-Hamas war erupted

Those who were arrested were sent to the Anatot and Ofer military prisons in the West Bank. There, workers said, they were blindfolded, interrogated, beaten repeatedly and deprived of water and food for extended periods.

“For three days, we remained handcuffed and blindfolded,” said al-Sajda, the Palestinian worker returned to Gaza Friday. "They would put us under the sun for two, three or four hours, with no water, food or anything.”

The ailing 61-year-old farmer, Warsh Agha, was released in bad shape and later died, laborers told his relatives in the northern city of Beit Lahiya. His body bore signs of severe beating, said his nephew, but hospitals in Gaza were too overwhelmed with the war-wounded to perform an autopsy or issue a medical report, his family said.

Israeli rights groups say Israel detained the workers without charge, due process or legal representation at a fraught time while their families in Gaza endured Israel’s devastating bombardment. Over 9,000 Palestinians have died in the fighting, according to the Health Ministry in the Hamas-run territory.

“They had valid permits to be in Israel and work there,” said Miriam Marmur, public advocacy director at Gisha, an Israeli rights group that promotes freedom of movement for Palestinians. “They suddenly lost their status. They were in danger from anyone — army, police, any random Israeli who sees them.”

The scope of Israel's round-up remains unclear. As many as 10,000 deported Palestinians crossed back into Gaza Friday, said Wael Abu Omar, the spokesperson of Gaza's border crossings. Relieved families showered them with kisses at the Kerem Shalom border crossing in southern Gaza. The Israeli Prime Minister's Office and Defense Ministry declined to provide an exact figure.

Any sympathy that was available when the first Hamas terrorism happened has evaporated. The Israelis are just as bad, they are also terrorists at this point. "A Plague on both your houses."

Another story from CNN.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 23 - 12:44 PM

From NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday this morning:

How two Dartmouth professors are addressing student questions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Dartmouth College has set up forums to educate students and the public about the Israel-Hamas conflict. NPR's Scott Simon talks to professors Susannah Heschell and Tarek El-Ariss, the organizers.

The transcript isn't up yet, the story is an 8-minute listen.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 23 - 09:29 AM

Barak Obama is the source. I read it somewhere yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 23 - 04:07 PM

Four hour "breaks" will be offered each day so people can move around Gaza. There still aren't enough relief supplies entering, though I read somewhere that Hamas has access to lots of supplies should they choose to release them. That story needs more investigation if true.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 09:00 PM

You're all incorrect.

If you take a look at Googles Ngram Viewer it examines scanned texts and finds the earliest and most frequent, etc., occurrences of words.

"Genocide" first appears in 1808, but a minute fraction in publications. It picks up in ~1902, probably to do with the Armenian genocide. When you take out the smoothing (as I did in this link) it's easier to see the blips on the history of it. In 1940 the graph starts to rise and by 1971 it has really taken off.

I deleted a lot of nasty stuff here and in the coin toss threads. If Don and Steve don't stop the personal sniping I'll close both threads and people may find themselves in time out.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 06:02 AM

Steve: I have no wish to side with Hamas, but I can't find any reports about Hamas withholding aid.

"Goren also said that in coordination with the UN, the army was opening a new humanitarian zone in Khan Younis, a city in the south of the strip, which he said would not be targeted by Israeli bombing.
When asked by the Guardian for details, the colonel did not give the location or size of the new “safe zone”, but said it could hold “hundreds of thousands of people” in a “relatively open area”.
Goren also accused Hamas of using the area’s civilian population to further its operational goals, withholding stockpiles of water, food, medical supplies and petrol in order to fuel the humanitarian crisis and slow the Israeli advance. Cogat, citing coordination with the UN, said there was “not a food and water shortage” in the strip, although the supply was “not at a normal level” and access was more difficult in some areas than others."

Source: The Guardian admittedly you have to read almost to the end to find it, while the Telegraph includes it as a headline (but that article is behind a paywall)

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Nov 23 - 08:38 AM

I was responding to the fact that 'you hadn't seen reports'.

As for fact checking, it seems the NYT say the claims have been confirmed by 'Western Officials' NYT
Similar date, but at least now you've seen the reports. Whether you believe them is your choice. But in view of the situation in Israel/Gaza it would seem stupid of Hamas to have made their attacks without first stocking up on provisions.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 23 - 12:59 PM

Donuel: "Nuremberg sentences for those not executed were watered down within a short time. That court introduced the word genocide."

The Nuremburg Court was established in November 1945.
The word Genocide was coined in 1944 (according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum)

I may not always agree with Steve, but I do try to stick to facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 12:42 PM

Steve: "I'm not denying that there is, or has been, a considerable Hamas presence in the hospital. That would be a war crime. So is the deliberate targeting of a hospital by the IDF."

Once you have accepted that Hamas have (or have had) a considerable presence in the hospital then the war crimes are those of Hamas.

From The Guardian

Article 8 of the Rome statute, which established the international criminal court (ICC) in The Hague, defines a long list of war crimes including “intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected”.

But it makes an exception if the targets are “military objectives”. Philip-Gay said that “if a civilian hospital is used for acts harmful to the enemy, that is the legal term used”, the hospital can lose its protected status under international law and be considered a legitimate target. Nevertheless, if there is doubt as to whether a hospital is a military objective or being used for acts harmful to the enemy, the presumption, under international humanitarian law, is that it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Nov 23 - 07:37 PM

Steve:But if you want to accuse Hamas of specific bad actions, such as hiding bags of weapons in hospitals, etc., you need much better evidence than likely put-up-job IDF staged photos.

I am not looking to provide evidence. You, yourself said: there is, or has been, a considerable Hamas presence in the hospital.

This, from your own words, makes the hospitals a valid target!

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Oct 23 - 10:29 PM

I'm not a scholar of international law, but it's all more complicated than partisan claims suggest.

White phosphorous is indeed outlawed when used intentionally against civilian targets. Its use for smoke screens, for illumination, in tracer rounds, and against military targets, however, is perfectly legal.

Whether Israel used WP against civilians in Lebanon is disputed. If an international body like the World Court was ever sufficiently persuaded to bring charges, I haven't seen mention of it.

The Convention on Cluster Munitions doesn't "outlaw" cluster bomblets. Their use against certain military targets, in fact, remains legal under international law.

Instead, signatories to the Convention simply pledge not to employ certain munitions of that kind. Israel, however, along with Russia, China, India, the United States, and a few other countries, is not a signatory.

If someone uses cluster munitions against a non-signatory nation, that non-signatory has no ground for protest or action under international law; however, it is not restrained from using such weapons itself when it deems them "necessary."

As for civilian targets in general: it is a war crime to target civilian areas simply to kill civilians or to destroy civilian morale. It's not a war crime, however, if civilians die in attacks on legitimate military targets.

Equally interesting is that it is very much a war crime to place military forces or assets in a civilian area to use the residents as human shields. Such military targets have always been legitimate under international law, and any resultant civilian harm is the responsibility of the defending forces.

When civilians are harmed, defenders can always charge they were targeted intentionally. (The word "genocide" is often bandied about in such cases.)

Current international law requires that reasonable measures be taken to minimize civilian casualties. Of course, what measures are "reasonable" in a given circumstance may be a matter of opinion, and many people don't recognize or won't heed warnings. Moreover, if legitimately targeted enemy forces would be alerted, a warning isn't required.

Stakes are high on the world stage, so both sides exaggerate or lie when convenient. It's often difficult to determine whether a war crime has occurred until there's a verdict by a duly appointed international tribunal.

In 1864 General W. T. Sherman wrote that "War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it." Later attempts to mitigate the cruelty have had real but very limited success.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

No, Steve, I didn't mean you.

Was the WP used to kill civilians? What was it used for, and what did it do? Use of white phosphorous shells is not in itself prohibited.

And whatever one might think of them, cluster bombs are still legal - unless you have more detailed information about the Convention than I do. The Convention specifically allows cluster munitions of certain sizes anyway.

Moreover,

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/4/3/why-we-need-to-challenge-russias-human-shields-narrative

"According to international law, using human shields constitutes a war crime, while the party responsible for the death of human shields is not the one killing them – if the attack is proportionate – but instead, the one deploying them."

Hamas consciously brought this on themselves and their people to generate international outrage against Israel. In this they have been remarkably successful - even though their eight-hour spree of murder, arson, rape, and torture on Israel was absolutely a series of crimes.

According to CNN, even in "peacetime," Hamas lobs two or three rockets a day into Israel. Hamas has explicitly pledged to destroy Israel and its Jewish citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas attacks Israel - part II
From: Lighter
Date: 31 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM

Just to repeat what I wrote some time ago, I don't hear any supporters of Palestinians shouting "Release the Hostages!"

Not even in countries where they could do so quite safely.

Why is that?