Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 03:25 PM

Heh heh; hadn't thought of that, but that may have been part of my unscious thought process.

I think that the "alligators" line is everyone's favorite, and may indeed be resposnsible for the song's enduring popularity....

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:40 AM

===If it weren't for the "Preview" feature, you'd be seeing a LOT more misspelled words from me.===

I take it we are to sing this line to tune of 2nd line of the verse - "If it weren't for the alligators"? Can just about be done with a few added notes...

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 05:18 PM

I am guilty of my own share of typos, too.

In my defense, I would like to point out that it's almost always my clumsy arthritic fingers that are to blame, not my actual knowledge of how a given word is correctly spelled. ;^)

If it weren't for the "Preview" feature, you'd be seeing a LOT more misspelled words from me.

(PS ~ Caught THREE typos previewing the above three short paragraphs!)

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: Susan A-R
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:49 PM

That'd be me. I am spelling challenged, which only marginally has to do with visual impairment. Thanks for the great history everyone. I can see a wonderful, if not definitive intro to this song developing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:58 PM

I realize now that my map was erroneous.

The curve of Basin Street, just outside the French Quarter, marks the old basin that once lay at the end of Bayou St. John, a natural geographical feature which used to run all the way into town and come to an end where they dug a man-made turning basin. Now the bayou comes to an end quite a bit further back toward to Lake, at Jeff Davis corner of Conti.

The New Basic Canal was dug a bit west of the bayou and terminated at a newly built basin, about where today's Union Passenger Terminal (bus & Amtrak station) stands, and at the point where the route marked on the map I posted yesterday takes a sharp turn. Just ignore the last leg of the route marked on yesterday's map to see the path of the old New Basic Canal.

Don't have time to make a new map right now; maybe later.

leeneia: Nice job spelling Tchoupitoulas, which is an even more difficult task than spelling Pontchartrain.

Alice: apologies for getting mixed up over who originally misspelled Pontchartrain...

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:18 PM

Thanks for the map, Poppagator. It makes things much clearer. I'm pleased to see one of my favorite streets, Tchoupitoulas.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: GUEST,ollaimh
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 11:17 PM

i knew several folk collectors in nova scotia who were convinced that the lakes of p was a later development from little mohee. helen creighton collected a full set of lyrics in nova scotia back in the thirties--exactly like the christie moore version.which tells me it was old in new england and nova scotia in 1900 at least; she got it from a very old guy.

the cajuns were adadiens. they settled in nova scotia and southern new brunswick from 1605 untill the british came and ethniclly cleansed them in 1755. remember evangiline and gabriel. in logfellows poem.they were treated very cruelly. lost all their possessions, their farms, families were separated and they were dispersed over the thirteen colonies. many went to louisianna as there was a french presence there. the french there were landed and rich and did not welcome their co linguists so they settled in the unwanted land of the bayou ans up on the western prarie or loiusianna. they are still there.

i live now in new brunswick where most modern acadiens live.many returned and about half(including my faily) hjid in the woods and "went native" for several decades to avaoid the british deportations. this event is still the shapping event in acadien culture.its called the grande derangement. its like the famine to the gaels. a tragedy which eveyyone knows of but little is said untill recently.

now new brunswick is almost half acadien,prince edward island maybe twenty per cent and nova scotia ten per cent. many don'[tspeak french in nova scotia and pei but french culture is alive and well in nouveau brunswick where many speak a local dialect called shiac(a contraction of shediac--the unofficial capitalof acadie and best lobster in the world)

i often fantasize about going down to the bayou--if any one survived katrina--with my mandolin harpand bouzouki and ask "ou est la musique acadienne?" and see if i have any tunes in common--even though i'm mostly scotts gael--only one acadien grandfather.

anyway   i think little mohee was the origion of the tune. as i recall it also has a line about sleeping out in the woods but for the bears.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 03:38 PM

Here's a Mapquest map showing the (approximate) route of the long-since-filled New Basin Canal, built by immigrant labor (mostly Irish) in the 1830s. Slaves were considered too valuable to risk in the disease-ridden swamps, so newcomers from Europe were welcome to defy death for a few pennies a day.

Ironically enough, we now know that natives of the area, white and black alike, were immune to Yellow Fever and other such local diseases, and would have survived the same working conditions that killed so many immigrant workers. Nobody understood that then, sadly enough.

Most of the canal's route. once filled in and paved over, became the "Pontchartrain Expressway" from the suburban areas near the lakefront to the Mississippi River Bridge. Most of the expressway eventually became part of the I-10 when the interstate highway system was developed through the late 50s and 1960s.

http://www.mapquest.com/mq/10-irxmiq4n0k7MSytuKd7Z

Note: The actual lakefront in the 1830s was somewhat further "inland" (south) than the current shoreline. The starting point for my Marpquest request for directions, near the corner of Pontchartrain Blvd. and Robert E Lee, may have been offshore in 1830. The downtown end of the canal was a turning basin abutting the curved section of Basin St, but the actual route of the old canal from the current I-10/US-90 right-of-way across the Central Business District to the Treme/Storyville area just north of the French Quarter is no longer clearly visible ~ probably along Loyola Ave., more or less...

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:22 PM

It seems like a slow and lovely version of the Blarney roses tune
Dunno which came first but a lovely story and song

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:42 PM

Several commentators have guessed that the "foreign money" in the song had to do with Confederate vs Union currency, which doesn't fit the time-line of the theory I believe, which has the narrator living in New Orleans more than 20 years earlier.

Back in the 1830s (and even later, through the Civil War), there was no standarized nationwide paper money ~ different local banks issued their own bills, hence the word "banknote." The proliferation of different-looking dollar bills may have looked confusing to a newcomer used to life under the more-tightly-organized British crown. Or maybe banknotes from one's hometown bank were not recognized once you traveled out of town, requiring the traveler to go to a local bank to exchange currency.

(Aside: The ten-dollar bills issued by Francophone institutions in New Orleans prominently dislayed the word "DIX" (french for "ten"); some believe that this is the origin of the terms "Dixie" and "Dixieland.")

I belong to the Irish Channel St Parick's Day Marching Club and participate in the oldest of the city's several Irish-themed parades each March. The organization was founded shortly after WWII, when veterans from the very tight community in the Irish Channel neighborhood began scattering into the suburbs to take advantage of the GI housing bill. (Those postwar loans were available only for NEW housing, presumably thanks to the construction lobby. The money could NOT be used to buy and/or renovate old buildings in old neighborhoods, which explains that postwar "white flight" to the suburbs was not entirely about racism.)

The parade was founded not only to honor Ireland and St Patrick, but also as a sort of reunion back in the old neighborhood, which over time became predominantly African-American and, later, Hispanic. The Saturday before March 17, our parade day, is sometimes jokingly called "White History Day in New Orleans."

Anyway ~ the real old-timers of the Irish Channel neighborhood were and are largely Irish, but also Italian and German. And their Irish forebearers all came to the states MANY generations ago, so there has been a lot of intermarriage with the other Catholic immigrant nationalities, and little or connection to any known relatives back in the Old Country. (Remember: the Irish quit coming to N.O. after that Basin Canal / Yellow Fever fiasco.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: Susan A-R
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM

I had wondered. I've read the wonderful series of 1830s mysteries set in New Orleans by Barbara Hambly (well researched, starting with Free Man of Color) and all of the information you lay out is in there, as well as the fact that things were really still shaking down between the French and the Americans, so maybe the "foreign money" refrence fits that. Some of those guys did survive (There is a pretty remarkable St. Patrick's Day celebration to this day in New Orleans, but perhaps that's just the partying city celebrating whenever given a chance?)

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

Hi Alice in 2010!

I popped over here after seeing that your newer thread had been quickly closed. I'm sure you've noticed by now that there is a "T" in "Pontchartrain."

I am absolutely convinced that this song has to have had its origins in the 1830s, when the first wave of 19th-century famine in Ireland drove so many immigrants to the US ~ specifically, to New Orleans, where plenty of unskilled labor was available digging the New Basic Canal, which would run from Lake Pontchartrain several miles into the center of town.

Most of the laborers were immigrants, mostly Irish, and huge numbers died of Yellow Fever. The word got back to Ireland that New Orleans was a very dangerous desitination, and subsequent waves of immigration from Ireland very consciously avoided Louisiana.

Since Irish folk came to this area only during this relatively brief period, and since they worked so close to the lakeshore, AND since the song is about the only example within the Irish-traditional repertoire that includes any reference to the New Orleans area, I'm sure that there must be some connection.

Whoever wrote it probably either hurried back home to Ireland before he'd die of a tropical disease, or perhaps was an Irishman who stayed home and culled the setting and other refences from letters received from friends and family who had left him behind. There are several clearly mistaken geographical bits (for starters, there's only one Lake Pontchartrain, not plural "lakes"), which might support the idea of the author writing from across the ocean based on his understanding of correspondence from Louisiana. However, even a person right on the scene might not have had an accurate big-picture map in his mind. God only knows how confusing it must have been to be up to one's knees in a swamp, in the middle of an epidemic!

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain
From: Tradsinger
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:03 AM

I always think of this song as a version of the English folksong "The Indian Lass", which is related to "The Little Mohi", well-known in the States. Can anyone trace the lineage?

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Susan A-R
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 10:06 PM

Thanks magic thread person. I guess it's still ambiguous about 10 years later, but it is still a great song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Rowan
Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:08 AM

G'day PoppaGator,
When you wrote (on 19 Aug 04) that
"The word "Creole" comes from the Spanish "crillo," which originally referred to the first generation born in the "New World," offspring of settlers from Europe (Spain or France). It has come to mean different things to different people"
I was reminded of one of the different meanings that linguists apply to it.

A paper in Scientific American (from about 20 years ago) described the influences (local Polynesian, Philippino, Japanese and English, as I recall) that created the "creole" language used in Hawa'i and that was my first exposure to the term in that context. I vaguely recall the author made a distinction between creole languages and pidgin but can't now bring the details to mind.

Because of the high number of language groups in the Top End of the Northern Territory in Oz, many local Aboriginal people speak about 10 different languages and English is pretty well last on their list. To facilitate communication between disparate groups, a "creole" (as linguists would call it) has developed among Aboriginal people there and one of its features is ruthlessly simplified spelling when written. Which is why, when the name of this creole language is written, it is spelled Kriol.

And technically, I'm a Balanda (pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable). Enough thread drift from me, on a really interesting thread.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 02:20 PM

I went looking for a version of this song on iTunes for my Shuffle (which I love) and I found Jed Marum's version. Very sweet, Jed. Thanks you for recording it. Abby

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:55 PM

Ok, just wondering.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 05:50 PM

The Lake Vista neighborhood was reclaimed from the lake bottom, laid out, and built by the New Orleans Levee Board in the mid-1930's. They built a seawall, thereby creating a well-defined lakeshore, about a mile or so beyond (i.e., north of) where mostly-dry land formerly began gradually turning into swamp and then lake. The neighborhood is a notable example of a planned community ~ houses face each other across parklike, unpaved "commonses" while vehicular traffic navigates streets towards which the backs of the houses (and the fronts of the garages) face.

My late mother-in-law used to say that Lake Vista and the larger "Lakeview" district of which it is a part were "built on eggshells and coffee grounds." It is definitely true that the land upon which this pricey real estate is built is less than stable, thanks to being reclaimed from the Shores of the Pontchartrain. Streets need repaving much more often than in other areas of the city, and even the foundations of houses are shakier there than elewhere.

This has probably been explained well enough already, but: Yes, the city has "grown," but in regards to its northern boundary, the growth (in terms of reclaimed lake bottom) only means that the north shore of the lake is only 26 miles away now, instead of 27 or 28. Five miles north of town is still way out in the water.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 01:06 PM

Five miles north of N. O. would put you five miles into the Lake, but not in the middle, since at that point the Lake is some 20 miles wide. Lake Shore Drive and housing developments are along the south shore of the Lake. This is a fair bit north of the old French Quarter. Don't know how old the subdivisions on the lakeshore are.
Poppagator could tell you.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 22 Jun 05 - 07:29 AM

Someone here posted that 5 miles out of New orleans is smack dab in the middle of the lake. My question is, wouldn't the city have grown since Sam Henry compiled his book?

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 03:27 PM

Hootenanny,

Yes, excess rainwater is *often* pumped into Lake Pontchartrain. The city of New Orleans is basically bowl-shaped, lowest in the middle between the lake and the Mississippi River, and the average elevation is below sea level. The riverfront has always been the highest part of the city, and both the riverbanks and the lakeshore have been further elevated by levees. There is an extensive system of pumping stations and drainage canals (some of them underground) designed to rid the city of floodwater by moving it into the lake.

The capacity of the pumps is something like 2 or 3 inches of rainfall per hour. When we get really torrential rains, over 3 inches per hour, the streets start to flood, and then some houses.

You are also correct about "riding the rods," which refers to the underside of railroad cars (wagons).

And finally, you are also right about this remarkably civil thread. Like all half-dozen or more current and recent discussions of this topic, all participants are nice as can be. I suppose it says something about those of us who are interested, more of less equally, in things Irish and Louisianan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:05 AM

Doesn't seem that anybody yet has mentioned the bluegrass version by Jim Smoak and the Louisiana Honeydrippers (I think that's the correct group name) I have two vinyl albums of theirs at home, one on Prestige and one on Folk Lyric. Not being at home at present can't tell you which one it's on. I think that is where I first heard it.
More up tempo than many of the more recent versions.

Incidentally, I thought that during heavy rains in New Orleans which I've had the misfortune to experience on more than one occasion that the excess surface water was pumped into Lake Pontchartrain. Do I have that right ?

Re Riding the rods, aren't these the brake rods underneath the wagon parrallel to each other across which the board was laid ?

An interesting thread and no insulting language and snide remarks which so often seem to creep in and mar the worthwhile contributions.

Keep on pickin'

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Ljung
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 02:20 AM

Hi Murray
I am Kerstin from Sweden and I only want to say thank you for the short moment in Pitlochry, when I got the opportunity to listen to your music. The person who "recommend" you is Kenny Baxter, but you have only "talked" to each other in Mudcat.
I had a nice trip back to Sweden, and now I have to start planning for my next trip to Bonnie Scotland. Can I get your e-mail address?
Take care and CARPE DIEM
Kerstin    [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:24 AM

"Creole" is further complicated when usages in the Dominican Republic, Trinidad, Venezuela, etc. are added to the mix.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 05:00 PM

Cajun is a corruption or abbreviation of "Acadian" -- it refers specifically to the people of French ancestry who fled Nova Scotia (formerly Acadia) when the British defeated the French. Sorry, don't have the date at my fingertips, but this happened well after Louisiana had become an established French colony.

These refugees from maritime Canada were seeking a new French-speaking homeland, and many of them found their way to the swamps and prairies of southwest Louisiana, where they preserved their language and unique culture well into the 20th century.

Not all Louisianans of French ancestry and/or culture have been Cajuns -- the term refers specifically to members of this originally isolated rural community with its own unique music, rustic cuisine, etc.

The word "Creole" comes from the Spanish "crillo," which originally referred to the first generation born in the "New World," offspring of settlers from Europe (Spain or France). It has come to mean different things to different people; the most controversial aspect of the various debates is probably whether the term "Creole" refers to white or to black/mixed-race people. (Way back during the days of that first generation of American-born "Creoles," there may have been disagreement over whether the term was restricted to kids with two white parents, as opposed to those born to a Frenchman and an African or Native American woman.) You'll find staunch proponents of one interpretation to the exclusion of the other, plus plenty of us who accept "either/or."

Whether referring to Caucasians or colored folk, the adjective "Creole" usually connotes a more urban, aristocratic, and/or sophisticated cultural quality than the funky down-home "Cajun."

One very common meaning for "Creole" refers to the New Orleanian population of light-skinned black folks (most of them no more than 1/16 or 1/32 African) whose ancestors were never slaves and who maintain their own little elite society to this day.

Another meaning for "Creole" refers to any and all French-speaking black people of southwest Louisiana, the community that developed Zydeco music. Unlike most of the other meanings, "Creole" in this context has absolutely no connotation of urbanity or aristrocracy. These Creoles come in all shades of brown and black, including pure African blue-black, and they're farmers, not city folk. Of course, their numbers do include royalty, such as Clifton Chenier, the late great King of Zydeco.

A couple of us debated meanings of these terms in another recent thread on this same song, along with a few other questions and opinions brought up by the lyrics -- you might be interested.

Subject: RE: Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 03:12 PM

Isn't Cajun the proper name for a person from Lousiana of French origin, with Creole referring to African-Americans (as in "My Creole Belle")?

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Aug 04 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, Murray -- my bad.

It should be only too obvious that:
(1) I am still much less than conversant with non-standard tunings, and
(2) that I hadn't even tried to retune and start reading the tablature when I made that last post. Of course, I could have tuned to the major chord by ear without realizing that the G-string had been tuned down to F#, not F.

Mistaking B-minor for D-minor, of course, is certainly understandable, since B-minor is the relative minor for key of D.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 08:41 PM

Oops !

Glad I got back to this in time.

open D-minor would be: D A F D A D

The tuning I posted previously is of course open B-minor.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 07:05 PM

D A D F# A D ain't open D-minor, it is simply Open D.

Major.

D B D F# B D would be open D -minor

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:23 PM

I've been searching, on and off for weeks, for the "right" tabs for this tune. The open-G version I mentioned above (August 4) is all over the internet, in three versions that differ only in the level of detail and the introductory paragraph. They all seem to be the work of one Barry Hutchinson, who says he doesn't guarantee they represent the original, just his best approximation.

However, I'm pretty sure that the renditions I've seen and heard and want to emulate (Jed's, and that of a regular at Gogarty's in Temple Bar, Dublin) are in open-D tuning.

I finally found this one:

http://www.paulbrady.com/tablature/lakespontchartrain.asp

which is a bit ambiguous -- it is said to be in open D, but the tuning is described in detail as open D-minor: D A D F# A D. I suppospe the only recourse is to try playing the tablature two ways, with the "G" string tuned down one half step and also one full step.

Well, I think I have enough to work with now to start trying to learn this. I have very little experience and absolutely no comfort level with open and alternate tunings, but I'm motivated to learn this version of this song; maybe this will be the start of learning a whole new bag of tricks.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 03 Aug 04 - 10:59 AM

Christy Moore does a good job with this, pre-Paul Brady, Planxty days

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Aug 04 - 11:49 PM

fooled with this a bit today. I'll work out a chart for standard tuning, using the melody I sing. It seem like that mat work best.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 11:05 PM

I looked at the chart linked above, and noted that the lyrics pretty much the same as the ones I sing - but I use a different tuning. I don't really know how to write a chart for the way I play it in open D, because I have pretty much constant movement going, and don;t settle too often on whole chords. I will put some thought into it, though. I started out with a chord progression, and I believe I can reconstruct that. Maybe I can chart the song in standard tuning ...

I'll look at it tonight ...

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

Yeah, I second that vote for the Be Good Tanyas' version... phenomenal!

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:45 PM

Quick response, there, Jed! We must both be online at the same time.

Of course, I wasn't aware that Jed had posted his immediate response while I was writing my message after inadvertently sent an empty "refresh" message.

Incidentally, I caught his act at O'Flaherty's in New Orleans last week -- he was great. He asked for a request as soon as my wife and I walked in the door, and of course I asked for this number. After finishing up, he asked "How'd you know I would know that song?" My first response was "Just a wild guess," but then I had to own up to knowing him via Mudcat.

(This was my first-ever real life encounter with any fellow Mudcatter, by the way.)

Maybe we're both writing simultaneously again, and cross-posting. I'll shut up and make sure it doesn't happen a third time. Hope the above link is a good one and several of you put it to use. Over and out.

Pops

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM

I went back through all the different threads concerning this great song, looking for tablature for the popular open-D-tuning version. I *thought* I had found tabs a year or so ago, but didn't study up and learn the song back then. Now I'm motivated to take a serious stab at it, but I couldn't find tabs in any of the threads.

I'm refreshing *this* thread rather than any of the others because it contains a "tease" -- way back in '01, Jed Marum (who does a very nice rendition) had volunteered to post a chart "later today."

Here's a link I found containing tabs for an arrangement that is purportedly Paul Brady's, which seems to be considered more-or-less definitive. I haven't yet started trying to work it up, so I can't vouch for its correctness/completeness, but I'm hoping for the best:

http://www.expectingrain.com/dok/atlas/pontchartrain.html

Hey Jed: If this differs from the way you know the song, want to post any corrections?

PS: Sorry about the empty message I accidentally posted a moment ago -- my bad!

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: JedMarum
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:36 PM

Looks like I could run for political office, judging by the promises I made above, and did not keep! I had offered to develop a chart and post it. What was I thinking???

I have taken to playing this song in normal open D (VESTAPOL) tuning too, not just in the high strung configuration I mention above. I've heard variations on the melody - I'm not sure what melody I use, but it is the one I heard from tape a friend gave me ... a live performance by someone I do not know.

I played this song at almost every show in New Orleans over the last two weeks, and if I didn't, it was requested. I wish the song was as well known throughout the music world.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 01 Aug 04 - 01:26 PM

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST,Clara Pincus
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 09:37 PM

There is a great version of this song by the Be Good Tanyas on their Blue Horse album, 2000.


http://www.begoodtanyas.com/begood.php?loc=albums

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 01:16 AM

'tis a lovely song ... lots of variations; melodies and lyrics. I play it often.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: GUEST,Ben
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 04:20 PM

I heard Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham play The Lakes of Pontchartrain and Midnight On The Water as an instrumental set at the Playhouse in Alnwick, England. It worked well- maybe they have recorded the set.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 01:20 PM

Your post reminds of another of my old favorites: "My Pretty Quadroon." Probably would get disapproving glances if you sang it today.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 11:56 AM

We either will or we won't come to the "correct" decision on which was the right/original tune sung for this. At this late date, it just doesn't matter. For me, "TRAMPS AND HAWKERS" is the one that fits best. Also gives the song the best looking back longingly at what might have been feel to the song. So many of us know this bitter/sweet feeling from personal experience. Now, though, we can e-mail with just the click of the mouse and be in touch with the CREOLE GIRL----over the miles and the years...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 04:08 PM

Don't blame Malcolm for being tired. I have gone through some of the threads, especially his, and obviously some of us (my only excuse is that I am relatively new to Mudcat) have been chasing our tails on this one for a long time. It obviously is an old tune that lends itself well to a number of lyrics, old and new. The Max Hunter-collected version of Caroline of Edingboro Town is worth listening to.

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jun 01 - 12:59 PM

I sang it to "Come All You Tramps And Hawkers".

Art

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Jun 01 - 11:32 PM

There are several tunes to which this song is sung, but I imagine you're talking about the one popularised by Planxty and, later, Paul Brady.  That tune is obviously related to Come All You Tramps and Hawkers (a relatively recent title), which was one of the tunes associated with [Blooming] Caroline of Edinburgh Town.  There are quite a few references to these, and to Lily of the West in the DT and Forum, but I'm far too tired to supply exhaustive links; you can find them all for yourself via the "Digitrad and Forum Search" on the main Forum page.  There's a particularly useful example at  The Max Hunter Folk Song Collection:

Caroline of Edingboro Town  As sung by Mr. C. W. Ingenthron in Walnut Shade, Missouri on November 19, 1958.  The resemblance is unmistakable.  The "original" melody probably has an even chance of being Scottish or Irish -it turns up fairly consistently in both countries, and has of course been found in England, too- but perhaps somebody else will be able to supply more precise details.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jun 01 - 05:16 PM

The tune sounds old and familiar, very "Irish" or British Isles. The railroad references at the earliest have a late 19th or early 20C origin, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone comes up with the tune in a much older context. Many thanks to DADGBE for the Poncho Plains version. No one has mentioned Lomax- did he ever collect Lakes of the Ponchartrain?

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Jun 01 - 12:07 PM

The version I did on my old cassette ON THE RIVER had not only the "Cairo" --- "rode-the-rods" differences.

So adieu to you my creole girl that I'll never see no more,
But I'll ne'er forget your kind carress in that cottage by the shore...

Yes, she was true to the guy who went to sea------but there was more to this than arms length courting happening. And more power (and a health) to them both.

A lovely story I've always though.

Art Thieme (P.S.---Go see Shakespeare In Love)

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: JedMarum
Date: 31 May 01 - 09:32 PM

I wondered about 'ride the rods' - thanks for the update. And now that I think of it, what a wonderful reason for young man to carry the lifelong habit of drinking a 'flowing bowl' at each social gathering, to this young beauty!

I am sorry to say I did not get the opportunity to write the chart today, and I'm going out of town in the morning. I will complete it, though and have a link posted by Tuesday (6/5).

Subject: RE: Lakes of Ponchartrain
From: Mr Red
Date: 31 May 01 - 04:13 PM

Art Thieme
"Riding the Rods" is pretty well documented
for those not familiar
Derroll Adams reckoned that Woody Guthrie told him that hobos would hook their legs and hands over the axles of boxcars and travel un-noticed by the company henchmen
the point is this was a common practice during the depression
but how much earlier was it done?
when would the phrase be coined?
the "Riding the Rods" version has a twentieth century ring to it.

BTW Derroll Adams said the railroad henchmen had poles with iron spikes at right-angles which they poked under the boxcar from the roof, while in motion!
probably at slow speed but brutal times!

I like this background info, it helps my wish to sing a song, I sing the Ride the Rods version but the tune is very Irish. Is this surprising, it is probably the version with the Irish connection.