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Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words

DigiTrad:
ADALIDA
CHARLIE RUTLEDGE
LAKES OF PONCHARTRAIN
LAKES OF PONCHARTRAIN 2
LAKES OF THE PONCHARTRAIN (4)
THE LAKES OF PONTCHARTRAIN 3


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Lakes of Pontchartrain (114)
Lakes of Ponchartrain on banjo (11)
Lyr Req: The Man That Shot the Dog (Mick Quinn) (22)
Chords Req: The Lakes of Ponchartrain (65)
Question about Lakes of Pontchartrain song (36)
Spelling of 'Pontchartrain' ? (16)
Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchetrain? / Ponchartrain (47)
Lyr/Chords Req: Lakes Of Ponchartrain (Deanta) (13)
Lyr Req: On the Banks of Lake Pontchartrain (13)
Lakes of Ponchartrain through Irish lang (7)
Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain (from Sam Henry) (16)
Origins: Lakes of Ponchartrain (2) (closed)
Lakes of Ponchartrain (20)
Banks of Ponchatran...how old? (17)
Recording Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain (17)
Inf. Lakes of Ponchatrain? / Ponchartrain (4) (closed)


Jimmy C 12 Jun 02 - 11:35 AM
greg stephens 12 Jun 02 - 11:46 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 12 Jun 02 - 11:49 AM
greg stephens 12 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 12 Jun 02 - 12:01 PM
Francy 12 Jun 02 - 12:06 PM
Declan 12 Jun 02 - 12:21 PM
GUEST 12 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 12 Jun 02 - 12:40 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 12 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM
IanC 12 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM
Declan 12 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 12 Jun 02 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 12 Jun 02 - 12:54 PM
Declan 12 Jun 02 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Nerd (at work) 12 Jun 02 - 01:10 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 12 Jun 02 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 12 Jun 02 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 12 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Nerd (again) 12 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Nerd 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM
Ballyholme 12 Jun 02 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Nerd 12 Jun 02 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Nerd 12 Jun 02 - 01:35 PM
greg stephens 12 Jun 02 - 01:51 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 12 Jun 02 - 02:13 PM
GUEST,Nerd 12 Jun 02 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Nerd 12 Jun 02 - 02:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jun 02 - 02:51 PM
greg stephens 12 Jun 02 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Nerd 12 Jun 02 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,SeanN 12 Jun 02 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 12 Jun 02 - 04:31 PM
Bat Goddess 12 Jun 02 - 04:39 PM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Jun 02 - 07:49 PM
Áine 12 Jun 02 - 08:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jun 02 - 08:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Jun 02 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,SeanN 12 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 13 Jun 02 - 10:26 AM
Declan 13 Jun 02 - 10:44 AM
MMario 13 Jun 02 - 10:50 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 13 Jun 02 - 11:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jun 02 - 11:47 AM
Les from Hull 13 Jun 02 - 12:31 PM
Jimmy C 13 Jun 02 - 04:12 PM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 14 Jun 02 - 06:58 AM
Art Thieme 14 Jun 02 - 12:53 PM
Jim Dixon 16 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM
GUEST 16 Jun 02 - 11:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Jun 02 - 02:23 PM
Zorro 16 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM
GUEST 16 Jun 02 - 10:55 PM
Declan 17 Jun 02 - 06:01 AM
Malcolm Douglas 17 Jun 02 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Nerd 17 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM
Art Thieme 17 Jun 02 - 03:41 PM
Abby Sale 17 Jun 02 - 09:26 PM
Jimmy C 19 Jun 02 - 02:21 PM
Brakn 19 Jun 02 - 07:15 PM
Brakn 19 Jun 02 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,Guest 14 May 09 - 04:55 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 14 May 09 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 14 May 09 - 09:33 AM
Joe Offer 14 May 09 - 05:05 PM
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Subject: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jimmy C
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:35 AM

I need the words to this song. It was recorded on a CD " Eist Aris". by Andy Irvine. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:46 AM

sorry, cant do blue clickies,but I'm sure someone will in a minute so I wont type them out. And is Mudcat is the one place in the worldwhere everyone is allowed to be pedantic, Ithink I should point out that as far as I know Andy Irvine is Scottish and got the song of the Watersons who are English...though maybe it was Irish before that?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:49 AM

Is

this any use? I got it on a google search, but don't know if it's the version you're after.

The "definitive" rendering by dint of superstardom is Paul Brady's, so you might try putting his name into a search there and checking out webfanzines devoted to him.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 11:53 AM

IMHO the Best Song in the World. Bet Paul Brady got it from Andy Irvine though (speaking from memory, perhaps I ought to check dates on discograpies before opening my big mouth).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:01 PM

Here's the Brady version. (I needed to refresh my blue clicky skills).

Funny, I thought the song had some association with the American Civil War (or whatever we're supposed to call it in politically correct terms), but I don't see any obvious internal evidence of this. Am I imperfectly remembering a rambling intro by PB? When I see the words written down it looks more like a plea for the Euro, disguised by geographical transposition.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Francy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:06 PM

Whereever it came from, it's a wonderful song and thanks for those lyrics.... I really love to sing this song...Another song with similar melody and lyric line is the Lily Of The West..........Frank Of Toledo


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:21 PM

greg,

Do you really find it necessary to react like that every time someone puts the word Irish into a thread name ?

The version that Jimmy C was looking for is in the Irish language, which as far as I know is neither Scotish nor English.

Andy recorded the song with Planxty before Paul Brady did. Paul found his version in the US, which is obviously where the song was written. From both the language in the song and the tune, I'd say the author was Irish, but that is neither here nor there.

I'm not sure if the song was set around the American Civil war although "foreign money" could be a clue to this as the confederacy issued their own currency, which would have been useless after the war was over. Might also date back to the time of the battle of New Orleans (about 1812 if my memory serves me right)- Louisiana being a French settlement may have had a different currency in those days ?

I think it was actually Paul Brady who recorded it on Eist aris. I'll check out the CD this evening and will post the words some time soon.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Every song ever written, if ever performed by an Irish artist becomes Irish!

Cunning old Celts!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:40 PM

don't know of any Irish words, though there is a version, #1 in DT, that is more common in Ireland than Paul Brady's version. Google search brings up dozens of websites with lyrics, some of which differ slightly or greatly with DT's 4 versions. Maybe time for a study thread on this song. I'd say, agreeing with many, that the song dates from after the Civil War, and don't know of any evidence at all, in the song or otherwise, that it involves an Irishman (though we get around, don't we!). It is most probably an older Creole song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:43 PM

Decko,

The 1812 lead sounds quite plausible, given the use of the word "foreign". Maybe PB is fallible after all?

It didn't even occur to me that Jimmy C might be looking for words as gaeilge (pardon my html experimentation, I try to use it as a spurious justification for hitting mudcat from work!). I'd no idea that Andy Irvine (one of whose parents was/is Irish, I gather, so he comfortably qualifies to wear the green jersey) ever sang in the first official. What's the Coimisiún um Lugainmneacha official Irish translation of Pontchartrain? Droichead na gCartúsach?

And while I'm slaggin' PB (and by the way I do actually like his music), here's a stop press news item. I had agreed with Mooman that we should be ready to do the PB version of the rocks of bawn in time for the recent Brussels Mudcat gathering, but we never got round to doing it that weekend. So we tried it last night unrehearsed at our monthly pub session. I launched into it on my concert-pitch uilleann pipes, feeling altogether very Liam O'Flynn-like. Then Mooman joins in on the vocals and realises that he (unlike PB) is NOT your standard Irish tenor, and the song is just pitched three or four notes too high to sing in the same octave and about the same amount too low to sing the octave below. So it quickly turned into an instrumental solo. Suppose I'll just have to mortgage the wife, order a Bflat set from Geoff Woof and wait twelve or thirteen years before we try it again.

html fixed by mudelf


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:45 PM

This older thread Lakes of Ponchartrain has quite a lot of useful information.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:46 PM

greg,

Sorry for my intemperate opening to my last post. I got a bit carried away there.

Also it was Arthur McBride that Andy recorded with Planxty. I've never heard Andy singing the song except possibly as a backing vocalist to Paul Brady, who recorded it on the Welcome Here Kind Stranger album in 1978. I think my memory is right though when I say that Paul brought the song back from the states with him.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:53 PM

Further afterthought (and now it's way past quittin' time!)which has been below conscious thought level and alligator-like has just broken the surface.

I was struck by the persistence of the alligators through the different versions which I glanced over in response to Declan's original enquiry. Could the song also have been lodged in the subconscious of the swimming coach referred to in the current SONG CHALLENGE!?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:54 PM

Planxty DID record 'Lakes of Ponchartrain', it's on their last album, Cold Blow & A Rainy Night, can't remember if it's in any way different lyrically from the PB version, from 'Welcome Here Kind Stranger'


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 12:58 PM

Making an awful prat of myself today. I think I'll go home soon ! Christy Moore recorded Pontchartain first with Planxty and he did learn it from Mike Waterson.

I now remember that Paul Brady always introduced the song as a song he learnt off a Planxty record (but from Christy rather than Andy).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd (at work)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:10 PM

Hooh! Lost of activity on this thread. here's what I know on this:

Firstly, Cold Blow is not Planxty's last album, just their third. This is important because it predates Paul Brady being in the band. I believe it's sung by Christy Moore there. Christy got it from Mike Waterson, who heard it and thought it had Irish connections. It is, obviously, an American song.

It's very likely that PB (which in my community means Peanut Butter, but which I guess means Paul Brady here) learned it at least in part from Christy, to sing with Planxty, since Planxty was rather like a pick-up band with rotating members for a while, and included both Christy and Paul.

The Irish words are a translation made by Proinnsias O Maonaigh, Francie Mooney, the Father of Altan's fiddler/frontwoman Mairead. PB has indeed sung them. I don't know if they've been published.

Nerd


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:12 PM

Donegal mafia alert!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:20 PM

found this info:

Trip to Galway Thu 27 Apr 2000

Francie Mooney television special.

Trip to Galway. One of the most popular progammes on TG4, Irelands Gaelic language television channel, is Sibin. The final programme of the current series featured Francie Mooney (Proinnsias O Maonaigh), Mairead's father and was a celebration of his achievements in the areas of teaching, music, drama and Gaelic football. We certainly enjoyed the great music on the show. Altan played and were joined by Francie and he led the band in some some tunes. Mairead and Triona Ni Dhomhnaill sang a song written by their father, Aodh, a friend of Francie's. Mairead's joined Gearoid and his son Ciaran for a brace of fiddle tunes. Paul Brady sang Francie's translation of The Lakes of Poncartrain, Ar Bhruach Loch Ponchartrain. Paul reminded us that it was Gleanntain Ghlas Gaoth Dobhair, a composition of Francie's that had helped launch his own career with The Johnstons. Paddy Glackin and Micheal O Domhnaill were there to play a set of three reels. We were remided of the long friendship between Paddy's own father, Tom Glackin, and Francie. Noel and Padraig Duggan, from Clannad, were joined by their friend Thomas Loeftke who plays the harp and they spoke about their early days on stage. Many of Francie's friends from the regular music session held in Tigh Hiudai Beags in Bunbeg came down to Galway for the recording of the show and they made sure there was no shortage of music until late into the night. Our thanks to Christy King and Carmel Ni Bhriain of Gaelmedia for the warmth of their welcome and their wonderful hospitality.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM

that info was found here BTW:

http://www.altan.ie/news/items/item-22.phtml

I thought I had implied that Paul was NOT the singer on the Planxty album cited, prob. Christy, but that Paul's WHKS version was derived and very similar.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd (again)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM

Here's what Peanut Butter himself has to say!

"After the collapse of my previous band The Johnstons I was stuck in a going nowhere period in New York City in late 73 when I got a letter from my friend, the uileann piper Liam O'Flynn asking me to come home and join Planxty, the great Irish folk band of that era. It was a complete change of direction for me. Although I had recorded lots of traditional music and songs in the late 60's/ early 70's with the Johnstons, I was at that time moving in a contemporary songwriting direction. Arriving home in Ireland the following year, the Planxty album that was currently in the shops included a song sung by Christy Moore, 'The Lakes Of Pontchartrain'. I loved it.

Two or three years later when the band had broken up and I was touring with Andy Irvine, I drifted back to the song and eventually decided to do my own version when it came to recording my first solo album 'Welcome Here Kind Stranger' in 1978. It quickly became one of my most popular songs and for years later and to the present day people ask me to sing it."

--Paul Brady


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

Indeed, Bill, I did not think you had suggested that Paul sang it on the album. I was just saying that, since it predated his being in the band, it was already in Planxty's repertoire when he joined. Therefore, he'd have to learn at least the guitar parts when he joined up, and that was a reasonable place to assume he first came in contact with it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

This song has been discussed ad nauseum; there are as many versions as there are people who have sung the song, but so far, no Irish words. I don't see why they would be necessary. The thread mentioned and given a clickie by Ian C (21105) has the most data. There are four versions in the DT. Many of the folksong books have a version or two. One in Randolph is called "The Ponsaw Train." The song may be based on an English ballad about a lass (see the thread mentioned above).
Definitive version? You may have a favorite, but why should one set of verses be declared definitive? Another version is in thread 7008: Lakes


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:26 PM

So what is the Irish word for alligator?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Ballyholme
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:29 PM

Christy did get The Lakes of Ponchartrain from Mike Waterson but something tells me that their is a version in the Sam Henry Collection. If John Moulden is online he can certainly tell me if I'm right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:32 PM

Ballyholme, I think you're right, there IS a version in Sam Henry. This may be what gave Mike Waterson the impression there were Irish connections.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:35 PM

BTW, Dicho, two separate posts in this thread have established that there ARE Irish words, translated from English by Francie Mooney. Whether they're "necessary" is anyone's call, I suppose, but they do exist! You should try to read the threads first; even if the discussions go on ad nausaeum, they do sometimes add new information...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 01:51 PM

Hey Declan, dont apologise, misunderstandings in the air, Sorry if I sounded stroppy, inadvertent.I was just repeating a quip by an Irish musician friend "Funny that the definitive Irish song was sung by a Scotsman (Andy I), learnt off a Yorkshieman, and it's about Louisiana". I'm not anti irish, honest: I just dont like Riverdance. And to prove it, come round and have a drink and go through my Irish record and book collection...you'll be here for weeks! (I've already typed this out once and itsseems to have vanished into the air...if it appears again..too bad) Cheers Greg


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:13 PM

I did read the thread, with increasing boredom, and saw that a translation was made by someone, but so far NO Irish words have appeared in this thread. Good! I suppose silliness will prevail, however.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:17 PM

Andy's not a scotsman, anyway. He was born in England to a Scots father and an Irish mother. He was mostly raised in England, but moved to Ireland at 20, pretty much to stay. Since he's 60 this year, has lived in Ireland forty years now, considers himself Irish, and his mother's Irish, I think we can call him Irish. If not, the second most obvious identification would be English. Only hard-core patriarchal fanatics would say he's Scottish...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:26 PM

Whew! In the time i take to compose a post, there's always a reply made to a previous post! Here goes:

Dicho,

I can appreciate your boredom at repeated information. But there are some people to whom an Irish translation of a folk song might hold interest. It is an old tradition in Ireland to translate both folk and book-learned materials into Irish and introduce them to the oral tradition...the best-known case would be the translations of Boccaccio that became part of the folktale tradition in the Blasket Islands. This could be seen as a continuation of that venerable tradition. In addition, Francie Mooney is not just "somebody" but a major force in Donegal folk music.

Your reply is sort of like hearing that Allen Ginsberg had translated Rimbaud into English and saying "well, i heard that a translation had been done by somebody, but who cares? It's all silliness" Francie's got every right to translate, and to be taken seriously by you and all of us.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 02:51 PM

Since the natural language of the human race, which everyone ought to be speaking all over the planet is clearly supposed to be English, translating songs into any other language is merely a way of trying to fend off that happy day....

And here is that in Portuguese (sort of) courtesy babelfish:

Desde la lengua natural de la raza humana, que cada uno ought hablar todo sobre el planeta se supone claramente para ser inglés, traduciendo canciones a cualquier otra lengua es simplemente una manera de intentar apartar de ese día feliz....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 03:02 PM

It was a little quirky joke about Andy Irvine being a Scotsman, made by a seriously longterm friend and musical colleague of his, in the context of how funny/interesting it is how people and tunes move around. Nothing to get hetup about.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 03:06 PM

No hard (or het) feelings, Greg :-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:22 PM

Actually, I thought Declan's original remark:

"Do you really find it necessary to react like that every time someone puts the word Irish into a thread name ? "

to be dead on. Do you realize you appear to have a definite anti-Irish streak, greg?

As to the Gaelic lyrics issue--it appears that Dicho shares a similar anti-Irish prejudice.

Why all this hostility towards the Irish here?

FWIW, Francie also did a very nice translation of Barbara Allen for Altan's performance of it with Dolly Parton. As Nerd pointed out, it is a common practice among Gaelic speaking traditional musicians.

Also, the Monday night session at Teach Hiudai's kicks ass.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:31 PM

I'd like to see the same attempt at respect by the many Irish speakers in the Cat who wonder quite annoyingly why anyone would want a translation of a 'perfectly good Irish song'. We want them because we want to understand them and sing them to people who will understand them, or at least be able to explain them to people who don't understand them. Translation is an art, and Francis is an artist, good on him, and maybe his translations will enter the canon of Irish Ballads, maybe not. I don't think it a sillything to do, but in the case of an Irish audience, maybe unnecessary. Except as an expression of his art, and for the love and perpetuation of the Irish language.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 04:39 PM

Was going to mention it's in the Helen Creighton collection of Nova Scotia songs published in the 1930s, but that was mentioned in the old thread.

Yet another performer/group who has recorded it is Trapezoid, though I think they sang it too slow. I know of several different versions -- some mentioning a train, and some not.

All of its references, of course, are American -- how did it get to be so identified as "Irish"? (And recorded by Irish musicians.)

Anywho, I don't have Irish (Gaelic) words to it, and that's what the original request was for.

Linn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 07:49 PM

The text of Ponchartrain is clearly American; it is sung to more than one tune, but the best-known is the one that also carries most (?) versions of Lily of the West. The tune was also widely (and, I think, earlier) used for Caroline of Edinburgh Town, and under that name was often the prescribed tune for topical broadsides issued in 19th century America, so it may reasonably be supposed to have been well-known there by the time of the Civil War, wherever it came from before that. The tune has been found in tradition throughout Britain and Ireland, but if I had to vote for a country of origin for it, I would at present think Scotland most likely. Having said that, these things are often untraceable as to origins, and I am not a tune historian.

There's a tendency for arguments to develop here (and elsewhere) when people ask for "Irish words" or "Irish songs"; this is not because of any particular anti-Irish feeling, but rather the result, I think, of a certain weariness when the same misapprehensions are so often repeated. If people want "Irish language" (that is to say, "Irish Gaelic") texts, then they should say so; it is however the case that a lot of people do not understand that Irish, Scots and Gaelic (in whichever of its forms) are not the same thing. It is also the case that only a small minority of people understand any kind of Gaelic; it is therefore appropriate to translate, at least approximately, texts posted in a "common language" forum such as this. I always add translations when posting French texts here, and see no difference in the principle, except that French is more widely understood.

It is also the case that, due to the wide recording of songs of varied origins by popular performers such as the Clancy Brothers, the Dubliners, Planxty and so on, many people simply assume that a song is Irish because they have heard it sung in that accent. Since not a few of the most popular songs in the repertoires of such performers were drawn directly from English and Scottish traditional sources, it is a little galling when those equally valid traditions are snubbed as if they did not exist or were of no consequence. From my own point of view it is simply a question of giving credit where it is due, acknowledging one's sources and, above all, telling the truth; regardless of what might at one time or another be fashionable.

As to modern translations of English-language songs into Gaelic; this is, as has already been said, by no means a new phenomenon in either Ireland or Scotland, and it bears repeating that Proinsias Ó Maonaigh is considered a fine translator. It is however the case that a great many ill-informed people will, unless the details are spelled out to them, automatically assume that anything in Gaelic must, by definition, be "the original"; we do have to be careful that we do not inadvertently spread misinformation.

The Lakes of Ponchartrain as given in the Sam Henry Collection, incidentally, came from Paddy M'Closkey (Carnamenagh, Corkey, Co. Antrim), who learned it from Frank M'Allister (Carnagall, Corkey) around 1905; Frank had learned the song when a woodsman in America.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Áine
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:03 PM

McGrath of Harlow (Hi! Kevin):

The Irish word for alligator is ailigéadar ;-)

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:31 PM

If someone asked for the Russian words of the Lakes of Pontchartrain, wouldn't most people assume that meant the words in Russian?

Admittedly that first link An Pluiméir Ceolmhar gave does appear to rather bizarrely imply that it is Irish in origin (rather than Irish by adoption, which is true of just about any good song.) But then that happens all the time.

And I still am curious to know the Irish for alligator.

Normally when people ask for this song don't you find they tend to say "The one about the alligators..."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 08:36 PM

And while I was writing that, Áine has come up with the answer - thanks for that. I had a feeling it might be something like that. That's a much better way of spelling it. At least, if I was an alligator I think I'd prefer it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,SeanN
Date: 12 Jun 02 - 09:36 PM

Malcolm, I agree that it is common courtesy to post English language translations for Irish songs, as one would for songs in any other language, in a predominantly English language forum.

I disagree with a number of your other points, though. I'm sure this won't be seen as pretty for some of the English posters here, but I'm going to have my say on the issue, regardless.

None of the reasons you cite for being "argumentative" (as you put it) are reasonable justifications for snide comments and remarks about Irish music. A mere 20 or so years ago, the exact opposite influence was afoot--everything Irish was presumed by most Americans to be English. What goes around, comes around as Vonnegut said.

These "origins" obsessesions are driven by a nationalist desire seen all too often among English and "British" folk. Among certain elements of the English folk scene in particular, that desire then becomes an obsession with dispossessing the Irish of any "ownership" of songs which can also be found in English or Scottish traditions, especially in international forums on the web.

Those sorts of "arguments" only matter to those of you who believe the indigenous music of those islands needs to be "owned" by the English or Scottish. It is the result of many years social conditioning among the English/British. We see this sort of anti-Irish English nationalism rearing it's ugly head all over the internet in forums where English and Irish interests are both discussed.

It would be nice if these same English/British folk would become a bit more self-aware of their own prejudices, and try to refrain from making these sorts of essentialist statements which have no real foundation or relevance to the matter at hand.

The original poster was looking for the Irish lyrics to an American song, not for a bigoted diatribe against the Irish, the Irish language, or even Andy Irvine for referring to himself as Irish.

Is mise le meas,

SeanN


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:19 AM

Trying to get it right about the history and provenance of a song seems to me a good thing in itself. It's wrongheaded to take it as some kind of assault on a tradition to point out that a particular song comes from another tradition.

In fact it can be the other way round. When for example, someone points out that a song like the Wild Rover, in the version normally sung, came to Ireland fairly recently from a version collected in Norwich, this is not in any way an attack on the Irish song traditions. It makes it easier to recognise the special qualities which the Irish traditions bring to the shared pool of songs and music.

I think most people who truly value a tradition are irritated when things get blurred like that, regardless of whether it's Irish being labelled as English, or English being labelled as Irish, or either of them being labelled as American.

Combining the different traditions and coming up with new types of music is great when it's good - but mislabelling the ingredients, that's is something else entirely. It doesn't make for good cooking.

And when people get strident about it doesn't make for good fellowship - and no it isn't pretty, regardless of whether you or they are you are Irish, Scots, English, American or Ruritanian.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:26 AM

McGrath

Well said.

Regards


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Subject: Lyr Add: AR BHRUACH LOCH PONTCHARTRAIN
From: Declan
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:44 AM

Folks,#

Sorry to butt in on such an interesting argument (and yes I know I started it!) but this is what Jimmy C was looking for :

AR BHRUACH LOCH PONTCHARTRAIN

Ar mhaidin geal sa Mharta, dfhag me slan ar New Orleans,
Is thug me aghaidh ar Jackson town ag lorg stor is maoin,
Mo ghran ar airgid iasachtachni raibh cairde agam le fail,
Sin a Bhris mo chroi le cra is cumhaidh ar bhruach loch Pontchartrain.

Thug me leim ar traein, le heiri grein agus thriall me rith an lae,
's ag deireadh neoin le tuirse is broin ba mhian liom dhul faoi shuain.
Nior chairde domh na stainseiri gur tharla fa mo dhein,
An ainnir chron de threibh Creole ar Bhruach Loch Pontchartrain.

Ar me "A chailin Creole, ta mo phocai lom foraoir,
Ach ab e na alligators, do luifonn sios faoin speir".
"Ta failte romhat go dti mo thi, ce gur simpil e i reim,
Ach nior diultadh riamh don strainseir ann ar bhruach Loch Pontchartrain.

Thug si go teach a mathara me is rann si liom go fial,
'S a folt dubh cas in a ndlaoithe deas thar a guailli chroch aniar,
Ar a mhaise is sceimh, nil scriobh na leamh ar a hailleacht na a gnaoi,
Is i an annair chaomh a mheall mo chroi ar Bhruach Loch Pontchartrain.

Dhiultaigh si me a phosadh ach d'inis si liom go fior,
Go raibh a gra ar bharr na dtonn i bhfad i gcein on tir,
Duirt si go mbeadh si dilis do is go bhfanadh si lei fein,
Go bpillfeadh se chuig a ghra Creole ar bhruach loch Pontchartrain.

Cead slan le bron, A chailin chron, anois ta ag imeacht uaim,
Ach beidh coimhne ar do chinealtas ag teach beag cois an chuain,
'Measc cairde cleibh ag spraoi no scleip go lionfad gloine lan,
Le slainte ag ol d'ainnir Creole ar Bhruach Loch Pontchartain.

To me this is an excellent piece of translation, true to the original but not slavishly so, poetic in its own right (note internal rhymes at the start of Verse 2) and still totally singable to the original tune. Maith thu a Phronnsias.

(Mo bhron faoi easpa sinti fada).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: MMario
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 10:50 AM

well done Declan!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 11:18 AM

But I see that he used the English version of ailigéadar...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 11:36 AM

Agreed, Seán, but sometimes we Irish and our hibernophile friends overcompensate, and I think that's what gets up the nose of people who haven't had to put up with what we put up with for years, e.g. in British sports commentaries. Apparently even this week, one of the British TV commentators was referring to the Irish soccer team as "we", but he was ribbed about it by his colleagues and now we can laugh it off.

Isn't there some saying about being magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat (or words to that effect)? Let's be honest and admit that there has been an awful lot of cultural chauvinism around in Ireland for much of the last century, and now that we are getting recognition let's not claim more than our due.

In a forum like this, a light-hearted tease or self-deprecatory throwaway remark is too often seen as flaming or provokes a flame, so it would be helpful if people tried not to over-react. Peace, man (Oh me heart is livin' in the sixties still).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 11:47 AM

One of the British TV commentators was referring to the Irish soccer team as "we" Well, what made it extra notable was that he was a former manager of the English team.

Actually I think most English people I've met tend to think of it that way, and it'll stay that way up until the day the Irish team meets the Engish team in the final (and that's the only way they can actually meet in this year's World Cup). That's largely because all the Irish players play normally in English clubs.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Les from Hull
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 12:31 PM

An interesting thread with many sensible things said about one of the best songs around, thanks everybody!

Slight thread creeps here - in the excellent (Irish) film 'Last of the High Kings' there's a politician who says - 'there's even been allegations about me, but I have the names of all the alligators'.

And about the football, even with my barely existing Irish ancestry (me mam is a Walsh) swamped by lots of English, I'm still cheering on the Irish team as well as England. Well, perhaps that's because they start with three Leeds players!

That Mike Waterson, he was from 'ull an all.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jimmy C
Date: 13 Jun 02 - 04:12 PM

Declan.

Go raibh mile mait agat.

That is exactly the song I was looking for, You are probably right about it being Paul Brady and not Andy, anyway it is a great song and I appreciate your input.

Thanks again.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:58 AM

Jimmy C,

What the hell do you think you're doing barging in here and bringing the thread back to what it was supposed to be about? ;)

Seán,

There's another thread (actually two) just started about "Any old (Irish) iron?" which proves my point, given that it has nothing at all to do with Norn Iron.

Les,

love the one about the alligators, it should be cross-referenced to the "alligator song" thread.


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Subject: Lyr Add: LAKES OF PONTCHARTRAIN
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 12:53 PM

I just posted to the earlier Ponchartrain thread thinking I was here at this one. That post relates to the Illinois version of LOP that I posted some of there.-----Please keep in mind that a major battle of the Civil War was fought at Cairo, Illinois. The guy could've been mustered out of the army there at the southern tip of Illinois where the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi River.---That is a strategic spot where control of the riverwas important for the North. It was way to cut off stuff from getting to the South. Even if he deserted after just "having had enough"-------it's a wonderful song that hits folks hard on the old nostalgia button. Once they know about it, they want to make it their own----and that's in the best aspects of the good old ORAL TRADITION. We in America had no "lords or ladies" supposedly, but we sure did sing about those--especially in the Appalachian hills. So take it for your own. That's pretty cool to my way o' thinking.

Hell, I'll just post it here too---might as well.(Please note "THE KIND CARESS" in the last verse. More was going on than meets the ear here. Check out the film Shakespeare In Love for a parallel love tale.

It was on the 3rd of January I bid Cairo town adieu,
Travelled down the river road my fortune to pursue,
No money in my pocket and no credit could I gain,
And my mind it turned with longing to the lakes of Ponchartrain.

I swung on board of an old boxcar just as the day did dawn,
I rode the rods from sun to sun and I lit down again,
And as the shades of eveninf fell the lowground I did gain,
And there I I met with a Creole girl on the shores of Ponchartrain.

I said, "My lovely Creole girl, my money does me no good,
If it were not for the alligators I'd sleep out in the woods,"
"You are welcome here kind stanger though our cottage is quite plain,
We never put a stranger out to the wilds of Ponchartrain."

She took me into her mother's house and she treated me right well,
Her hair hung down in ringlets and on her shoulders fell,
I tried to paint her beauty but alas it was in vain,
So handsome was my Creole girl by the shores of Ponchartrain.

I asked her if she would marry me and she said that it never could be,
She said that she had a lover dear and he was out to sea,
She said that she had a lover dear and there/true she would remain,
'til he returned to to claim his bride on the shores of Ponchartrain.

So it's here's to you my Creole girl who I ne'er shall see no more,
I'll ne'er forget your kind caress in that cottage by the shore,
And at each social gathering a flowing bowl I'll drain,
And I'll drink a health to the Creole girl by the shores/lakes of Ponchartrain.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 08:31 AM

I hope this doesn't come across as being too pedantic, but the Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names gives PONTCHARTRAIN as the correct spelling. Note the "T" as the fourth letter.

I mention this in order to help people who might want to search for Ponchartrain/Pontchartrain, either in Mudcat or on the Internet. Most search engines aren't smart enough to be flexible on matters of spelling.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:00 AM

In any US library today, if you want to find a book by W.B. Yeats, you will be directed to the British literature section of the collection. If you wish to study the literature written by and about W.B. Yeats, one of Ireland's Nobel winners for literature, or Synge or Behan, you will most take classes in British literature to do so.

Most English people still refer to the island of Ireland as part of the "British Isles".

None of this is accurate or correct. I see people making those sorts of mistakes all the time, without people making snide comments, or becoming argumentative about it.

Wouldn't it just be best, and least confrontational, to gently point out the error of a person's ways? I mean heck, the original poster of this thread didn't make any of the mistakes in his post asking for the lyrics that he stood accused of by Greg--Greg was the ignorant one in this instance. Yet, he is the one being defended here. Why is that?

Why was the automatic assumption made by Greg and apparently Malcolm, that Jimmy C didn't know what the hell he was talking about, and was an ignorant stooge of some nebulous Irish/Celtic conspiracy against the English and the Scots that only a certain segment of the British folk scene seems able to see?

I agree with you An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, the sorts of remarks made by Greg and Malcolm are often seen as inflammatory--because those remarks ARE inflammatory. Jimmy C was slapped down by Greg the minute he posted, when Greg suggested he was guilty by association with the Irish/Celtic conspiracy that only Englishmen seem to be able to suss out of posts like his.

So, considering how rude and wrong Mr. Stephens was to begin with, perhaps he needs to apologise for starting this whole sorry affair to begin with. That strikes me as much more appropriate than suggesting that SeanN and Declan are the guilty parties here for being overly sensitive to such ignorant remarks.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 02:23 PM

troll


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Zorro
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 03:21 PM

I have a video titled Irish Music in America narrated by Emmy Lou Harris.. On it there is a clip of a band called the Hot House Follies??? singing this song. It wasn't complete but seemed to be the same one posted by A,P, Ceolmhar above. She said the song traveled back and forth between the U.S. and Ireland and one version was popular during our civil war. She said it is also know as You're Welcome Here Kind Stranger. There are several songs with the same melody including Lilly of the West by Joan Baez and as someone mentioned, the one recorded by the Chieftains. I have no idea of the origin. But it's one of my favorites. It's not uncommon for folkies to take a really great melody and write their own words. Patriot's Game is another example. Bob Dylan's With God on Our Side has the same basic melody. Z.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM

Zorro, the name of the band is Hothouse Flowers, and Liam O Maonlai is the Irish singer in that band who is often credited with bringing the song to the attention of other Irish artists, rightly or wrongly.

I know of no one in the music community in Ireland who has ever claimed that the song was Irish. Rather, it is believed to be an American song, which evokes and appeals to a certain sort of Irish poetic sensibility. In other words, a lot of Irish singers have responded to it as a great song.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:55 PM

The Irish influence in Louisiana (and the music thereof) can be found at the River of Sound website here:

http://www.pbs.org/riverofsong/music/e4-new.html

To understand why it is seriously plausible that the song was originally written by an Irish American, see this website with a pictorial history of the New Basin Canal, built to connect New Orleans to Lake Pontchartrain in the early 1830s by Irish immigrants, who settled in the area.

http://schools.bigchalk.com/members/lakeshorelinks/subpage/newbasincanal

FWIW, I'm a Mississippi River folkie who first heard the song titled as "My Creole Girl".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Declan
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 06:01 AM

In my first post on this thread I wrongly accused greg stephens of showing anti-irish sentiments in a lot of his posts. There are some people around here who do that, but having looked through some of his earlier posts, I definitely have to say that greg is not guilty on that score, hence my earlier apology.

As far as I can see, the whole row here started because of a misunderstanding. In Ireland, when speaking English, we refer to our native language as Irish and not Gaelic. In common parlance Gaelic is a type of football.

So when Malcolm Douglas asks why Jimmy C didn't ask for a Gaelic version of the lyrics, the answer is that that is precisely what he did ask for.

This song is obviously American in its origin. There is some speculation that the author may have been an Irishman in America. Nobody is claiming this to be an Irish song. And if anybody thinks that because there are words in Gaelic that this constitutes an original version of the song, they will be wrong to think that. This does not mean that people shouldn't translate the song into gaelic (Irish).

Lots of people are wrong about lots of things a lot of the time, and there's never any shortage of people around here to correct them if they make a mistake.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 08:11 AM

I was making a general point rather than referring specifically to Jimmy's question (or even to this particular discussion), but evidently I was not clear enough. Just goes to show how easy it is to misunderstand each other, and why we all need to remember that what we think is self-evident may not be so to others!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 12:25 PM

Wow! Been away for a few days, and the controversy continues!

Some of the remarks about the English "claiming" Irish accomplishments reminds me of something I heard Richard Harris say in an interview. When he won an Academy award, the papers said "British Actor wins Oscar." When he was arrested in a bar fight, it was "Irish Actor Caught in Drunken Brawl."

Seriously, I agree that this thread contains many misunderstandings. Good thing it also contains a lot of information on the song, including the Irish (language) lyrics!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 03:41 PM

Lenny Bruce and Dick Gregory, two American social critics, were also stand-up comics---comedians. Whenever the press had to write articles on or even just mention their serious work for many good causes (Gregory ran for Mayor against the first Richard J. Daley in Chicago), they ALWAYS put the adjective COMEDIAN before their names. Comedian Dick Gregory or Comedian Lenny Bruce became, automatically, a buffoon in the minds of the people who read the stuff.

Somehow, this seems pertinent to some of the posts here in this thread. We all are influenced by each other musically and otherwise. That's how it's always been and that is also how it ought to be. Then, we see each other more like "people" than like the impersonal brunt of political and/or ethnic monsters reduced to stereotypes for various reasons and agendas by those we want to see as enemies.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 Jun 02 - 09:26 PM

Warning: extreme thread drift. But every time I see remarks about this song I just remember that if you and your spouse each have a BMW 250 and you're on your honeymoon and you go out on Lake Ponchartrain Bridge, you find that it's long and flat enough for even a BMW 250 to turn the tun. If you've lent one to a Hell's Angel & friend and you two are riding the other, it's even more fun at how surprised the Angel becomes.

I just wanted to mention that. It was a Good day.

OK. Sorry. Back to the hissing & biting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Jimmy C
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 02:21 PM

been away for a day or two. Declan, you are correct (again). I requested the Irish (Gaelic) words to the song and NOT the words to an Irish song. Maybe I could have been a little clearer. Personally I don't give a dead rat's ass where the song originated, I'm just happy that we have it to enjoy. In any language !.

Slan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:15 PM


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Ponchartrain - Irish Words
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Jun 02 - 07:17 PM

A thread I read from start to finish! That's new! Great stuff!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 May 09 - 04:55 AM

I've been running back and forth all over the internet...and this forum trying to find these lyrics in Irish...each link I click brings me back to the english ones,lol. Could someone please give me a definitive link to the Irish Language lyrics, if you have them? If so, Go raibh maith agat!:)

Click for Irish "Lakes"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:49 AM

There is an Irish version in this thread - read through it.

What do you mean by "definitive"?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 14 May 09 - 09:33 AM

Guest

Declan posted a translation into Gaeilge on this thread in June 2002. Just check the list of postings at the top of the thread and click on the relevant one.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 May 09 - 05:05 PM

Visitors often seem to have trouble finding things when they're in the same thread where they're posting. I'm not sure why, but it happens often enough that I've learned not to blame the visitor. But I haven't been able to figure out the visitor's perception, so I don't know why it's sometimes hard for them to find things here.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


Click for Irish "Lakes of Ponchartrain"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Irish Hippy
Date: 18 May 10 - 02:35 PM

I'm pretty sure that "British Isles" is a geographical term that pertains to the landmasses of the island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain, and not a geo-political term describing the soverign nations themselves. For instance, you often hear the term "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", which suggests that the landmass containing Scotland, England and Wales is called Great Britain, and the geo-political entity known as the UK is that landmass plus the section of the island of Ireland called Northen Ireland.
Remember that the term "Britain" predates the UK by many centuries, and probably originates with the people who were known as the "Britons" who came and occupied parts of the island of Great Britain way back when, before the modern nation states existed and when both the islands (GB and Ireland) were in fact divided into dozens of sub-kingdoms. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the French Brittany and the term "breton" are also all wound up together in historical relationships, though I could be wrong there, just saying it wouldn't surprise me.
What I'm getting at is that I don't think its racist or oppresive to refer to the combined geographical entity of the two islands (GB and Ireland) as the British Isles if this is in fact their correct geographical label, as long as it's understood that refering to them in this way is not equivalent to describing the Republic of Ireland as part of Great Britain (which even Northern Ireland is not) or as part of the United Kingdom (which Northern Ireland is universally recognised as being a part of). It's just geography, and I don't find the term British offensive or oppresive when used in this context to refer to the island of Ireland (not exclusively but including the island of GB too). This is from the point of view of a citizen of the Republic who is proud to be no subject of a monarch, a governmental system which I personally find highly objectionable, and who is proud to be a participent in a free democracy.

If I have any of this wrong, please correct me.

Hippy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 May 10 - 03:05 PM

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Including Scotland and Wales) and the country of Eire comprise The British Isles.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 19 May 10 - 08:57 AM

Thanks for the clarification Leadfingers...now, where do the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man fit into the picture....?
D


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 10 - 09:24 AM

its an American song,so why not sing it in French as well as Irish.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 May 10 - 09:27 AM

Channel Islands and Isle of Man are also part of the United Kingdom


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 May 10 - 09:39 AM

is there vesion in the Manx language?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lakes of Pontchartrain - Irish Words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 10 - 10:37 AM

"The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Including Scotland and Wales) and the country of Eire comprise The British Isles."

"Channel Islands and Isle of Man are also part of the United Kingdom"

Neither quote is strictly true - the Isle of Man is part of the British Isles, but not part of the United Kingdom. It's political status is "Crown Dependency". Same goes for the Channel Isles, except that they aren't part of the British Isles either. I see that the Wikipedia entry on Crown Dependencies has that wrong.
..................

Weird thread which I've just read through for old times sake. A classical example of of how the mildest thing can set off a barney.

I loved that line by Declan "Lots of people are wrong about lots of things a lot of the time, and there's never any shortage of people around here to correct them if they make a mistake." So I thought I'd prove him right.


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