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Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'

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BOTH SIDES THE TWEED


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McGrath of Harlow 28 May 00 - 07:12 PM
Malcolm Douglas 28 May 00 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Charlo 28 May 00 - 02:09 PM
Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) 28 May 00 - 01:22 PM
Jeri 28 May 00 - 11:01 AM
Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) 28 May 00 - 08:30 AM
Brendy 27 May 00 - 11:28 PM
Jeri 27 May 00 - 02:13 PM
Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive) 27 May 00 - 10:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 26 May 00 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Bill H 25 May 00 - 07:07 PM
GeorgeH 25 May 00 - 02:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 00 - 07:12 PM

Conrad has picked out the quote from Dick Gaughan because he wanted to sound-off about his concerns about the non-nationalist tradition in Ireland being marginalised and ignored.

His suggestion is that there is an inconsistency between what Dick has to say about tradition, and his selection of songs to sing.

But Dick Gaughan is not talking about that kind of stuff in this passage. He's not talking about whether songs should be censored or shouldn't be censored. He isn't in fact saying anything about the criteria singers should use in forming their repertoire. He's talking about how we have to be humble in making theories about folksong and about tradition, and need to recognise that we only have access to a pretty random sample of what has actually been sung at any time.

Thread drift is in my view quite a good thing to happen, and for a discussion about "What is Folk" to turn into one about Irish politics is quite a predictable thing to happen. These are two of the most longstanding free-fight areas on the Mudcat, I suppose they had to come together some time. But I think that stretching and distorting the sense of a quote in that way is not the best way of drifting a thread the way you want it to go.

And I think GUESTCharlo is just stirring things, and ought to be ignored. (I know I've just broken the golden rule and taken notice of the anonymous stirrer, but every golden rule has to be broken some time.)


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 May 00 - 02:24 PM

I'd disagree with Conrad that being selective in one's personal repertoire represents censorship in any real sense, provided of course that one does not attempt to censor the repertoires of others, or to create the impression that other material does not exist, or is not valid in its own terms.  I really don't think that Gaughan is guilty of that.

Oh, and Charlo: politeness costs nothing, you know.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: GUEST,Charlo
Date: 28 May 00 - 02:09 PM

Get this Conrad

The only good Orange song is about

DEAD

Orangemen, and proportionally speaking (coz thankfully, there are relatively few of the bastards, in a worldwide sense, doncha know) they take up much more room than they are entitled to.

I'd throw them out of my bucket, given the opportunity; for even cat piss is bound to enter the drinking water system eventually. The more there is, the more the pollution. And Orangemen never gave a shit about, nor recognized any other tradition outside of their own.

I'm sure, though, that they would gladly give their services FREE to appear at one of your little soirées to ensure their music gets to the widest audience possible.


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 28 May 00 - 01:22 PM

When you are selective you must first categorize. Actually by being selective performers do not float with the current they find their own channels. The tradition of the island of Ireland is one of distinct subsets. Really only the politics sets them appart. These sets are knowable. Knowing that things fit definitions is not necessarirly obsessing with definition. Gaughan himself however, obsesses with definition when he excludes some of the subsets in his work. He obsesses actually with the political/religious side of the subset which is a very intense division of ballads into camps. His article is about defining the undefinable and holding tradition to definition when infact tradition would rather evolve. He,himself, actually practices an overdose of education if that means the ability to split hairs to infinity and maintain rivalries by continuing to react to them by censoring all but your favorite subset. The old conflict of splitting and lumping. If you continue to react to rivalries you can not allow the tradition to change constantly as it wants to do. A singer who insists on selective singing maintains definitions which would otherwise blur. In this way rivalries are strengthened rather than being set asside. Indeed to really set asside rivalries you must sing the songs of all sides/subsets and this Gaughan, by holding things constant and insisting on definition and categorization refuses to accomplish.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Jeri
Date: 28 May 00 - 11:01 AM

Gaughan said "can only use it to construct a useful *theory* of rivers" not "can and should "construct a comprehensive and accurate description of rivers."" Point is, performers don't describe rivers, they jump in and float with the current. Performers sing songs that are meaningful to them. If the songs mean something to other people, then those people will sing them. It isn't any one person's responsibility to keep all the songs (or sides) of a tradition alive. Your argument on "equal time" and your theory about songs being censored by the mere fact that one individual doesn't choose to sing them don't hold water, so to speak.


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 28 May 00 - 08:30 AM

I was responding to this- "An overdose of education with an underdose of humility is one of the most dangerous trends in the world today. Some things are so intangible that to place an existing definition on them using techniques developed for use elsewhere frequently only serves to further obscure them.

A tradition is like a river, constantly flowing and changing. To take a bucketful of water from that river and then claim that you can use it to construct a comprehensive and accurate description of rivers is absurd. The best we can claim is that it is representative of one particular part of one particular river at the precise moment when we dipped in the bucket and that we can only use it to construct a useful *theory* of rivers which must be kept open to change as more evidence becomes available. *That* is scientific. "

When Gaughan takes his bucket full and then sorts it out and cagegorizes it (eliminating songs he sees as unfit) he is essentially claiming that he can and should "construct a comprehensive and accurate description of rivers" prior to using the music in the bucket. Remember he said- "description of rivers is absurd" IMHO he would be more true to his concept if he dipped his bucket into the mainstream and used all he found therein equally as all treasures are equal.

To the best of my knowledge Gaughan has recorded many nationalistic songs of solidarity but has never recorded any from the bucket which are loyalist,orange, or unionist in reference to the Isle of Ireland.

If one truly believed in the inability to define one would not be able to categorize and use materials as selectivly as he does in a censorial manner. Gaughan works very hard to make sure he obscures the traditions which I have referenced by keeping them from his recordings.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Brendy
Date: 27 May 00 - 11:28 PM

**** Peasant - hardly a misnomer.

B.


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Jeri
Date: 27 May 00 - 02:13 PM

We've gone through this enough times on Usenet. You sound like you have no idea what he sings these days. Oh, well - it's pointless to re-hash silly arguments about how performers have a right to sing songs they believe in and identify with. Perhaps you make his point for him. The discussion the post comes from was about tradition and change, if I remember correctly. (How some folks have the habit of telling people "you can't do that because it's not traditional.") Collectors collect all songs without judging them. What becomes or remains part of the tradition is what is sung, and we choose what we sing. This is what remains in the river. In the long run, no one person can stop something from happening in a tradition, only start or promote something. If it weren't for song collectors, many beautiful songs wouldn't be available to us. If it weren't for singers who choose a handful of songs to make their own, the songs would be museum pieces, frozen in time.


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: Conrad Bladey (Peasant- Inactive)
Date: 27 May 00 - 10:39 AM

I have over the last few years found Gaughan quite the censor when it comes to his bucket. While he will play warlike songs of solidarity of one side he dismisses the songs of those he opposes as "confrontational" Thus Dick's bucket strains out the orange,unionist, and loyalist and returns them to the stream without giving them new life. To take a bucket out of the tradition and define its contents saving some and casting away others is as absurd as defining tradition because what one has done in the censorial process is infact to have defined and categorized. When mr Gaughan can drink from the bucket of the whole then he will have overcome definition, and categorization to recognize all song as treasure and all verse as achievement which can be used by all equally.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 00 - 05:36 PM

Refresh, to give people another chance to read Dick Gaughan's perceptive comments.


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Subject: RE: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: GUEST,Bill H
Date: 25 May 00 - 07:07 PM

Going a bit far a-field here, and only touching on the story of the centepide.

Back in 1959 Theodore (or Brother Theodore as he was to become known) made a studio recording---as opposed to his only other recording of a live Carngie Hall performance. On this recording he tells a wonderful tale of a centipede---and how his questions of the creature about how it knows which leg to put after which one finally mixed it up so much that it could no longer walk.

BILL H---and in the words of Theodore---Intelligence in the audience is as rare as Rocking Horse Manure.


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Subject: Gaughan on the nature of 'Tradition'
From: GeorgeH
Date: 25 May 00 - 02:09 PM

As referred to in the thread on "Are collectors good" - this is the whole of the original . . .

The rest of this is Dick Gaughan, so I'll sign here. .

G.

In article <56dhu3$8g1@zebedee.pavilion.net>, Stephen Lowe-Watson writes >A centipede was happy quite >until a toad, in fun >said "Pray, which leg comes after which?" >This raised his doubts to such a pitch >he fell exhausted in a ditch >forgetting how to run. > >I think there is a moral there somewhere.

I too think there is a moral there. And before anyone decides to flame us for thread-drift :) it is a natural part of any discussion, including Usenet. All things are inter-related and sometimes you have to wander pretty far away from the precise topic in order to bring in related ideas to inform the main debate.

So.

This is all going to sound a bit strange coming from a Marxist, but then most people haven't a clue what a "Marxist" actually is, anyway.

There is phenomenon in the modern world which I find highly amusing as it has its root in ancient superstition. That is the desire to "name" everything, to define and categorise all external phenomena and label them in order to "understand" them better. This is useful practise until the label replaces in our consciousness that which it is describing and itself becomes the most important feature. When I say this is rooted in ancient superstition, what I mean is that it is the modern form of the belief that objects, and words, have powers and that if we can give names to these objects we can neutralise their power to harm us or we can take their power for our own use. Recurring theme in much of our ballad tradition.

The danger inherent in this is that we can become so obsessed with definition that we can lose the creative, organic relationship with that which we are defining. The subjective then takes precedence over the objective - but this is denied because we describe our efforts to define as being "scientific" and that word in itself carries power ie it carries the assumption of objectivity and the undefined is consequently classed as "unscientific", ie subjective. Defining a word to describe a method of description to exclude that which does not fit in to that particular method until the word itself has "power", ie, "scientific" is the rational, "unscientific" is the irrational. Maybe I'll write a book called "The Irrationality of the Rational" :)

Back to the centipede. I don't remember exactly who it was, Mingus or Davis perhaps, who answered the question, "Can you read music?" with the statement "Not enough to harm my playing". And before anyone makes any assumptions, I can read music and can write an orchestral score, with all required transpositions, so do not assume.

An overdose of education with an underdose of humility is one of the most dangerous trends in the world today. Some things are so intangible that to place an existing definition on them using techniques developed for use elsewhere frequently only serves to further obscure them.

A tradition is like a river, constantly flowing and changing. To take a bucketful of water from that river and then claim that you can use it to construct a comprehensive and accurate description of rivers is absurd. The best we can claim is that it is representative of one particular part of one particular river at the precise moment when we dipped in the bucket and that we can only use it to construct a useful *theory* of rivers which must be kept open to change as more evidence becomes available. *That* is scientific.

The story of all creative advances is that of people doing things constantly confounding those who said it was against the rules. Whatever any individual, or group of individuals, decides to define "the tradition" as, it will continue to develop in its own merry way and may or may not develop in accordance with our theories.

All that is then required is an open mind and a willingness not to take ourselves, or our wonderful theories, too seriously.


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