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BS: some interesting Etamology
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Subject: some interesting Etamology From: Margo Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:03 AM I ran across this page about life in the 1500's and I thought you all would enjoy it... Margo |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: katlaughing Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:43 AM Haha! That's a good one, Margo! I had just heard the one about being "saved by the bell" the other night on BBC. Thanks! kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Peter Kasin Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:02 AM That's fascinating stuff, Margo. I'm struck by the many interesting items from maritime history, such as when the 18th Century British navy did not serve sailors meals on modern crockery, and instead used square boards, so every sailor got a "square meal." |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: GUEST,Ety Mology Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:34 AM No codpiece jokes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Oct 00 - 03:04 AM Birds Eye very nearly produced something that they wanted to call 'Battered Cod pieces' but were stopped at the last moment..... Did you know that Elizabeth I banned football because it was so dangerous, people were getting killed? Mainly because it was an all village affair that lasted all day, with upwards of 50 people on each team!! Still, nice idea..... And 'raining cats and dogs' comes from the same era. When it rained heavily, any dead animals lying around (mainly those that weren't eaten.....) were washed into the streets, thus making it look like it had been raining cats or dogs...... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:11 AM Great, I like the line 'England is old and small...' why didn't the tourist board think of that one? I thought the thread was going to be about a clothes shop circa 1500 called Etam.... Roger |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Giac Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:13 AM That is interesting, and the main site has some pretty strange stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Michael in Swansea Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:42 AM I like it Mike |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Lena Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:17 AM We still practise that kind of football once a year,in Florence.Most people(mums,mainly)find it too vicious and physical,but it's still on to commemorate an historical event from some centuries ago:apparently some big king was threatening to conquer Florece,which until the 15 Hundreds was a free republic;Florence people didn't know how to win over the siege(I doubth they had soldiers at all to fight back),so they made up this huge football match to boast that they worried so little about enemies and armies and sieges.It worked:the king ,extremely impressed and scared,withdrawed all his army. Very,very interesting site,thanks very much.But the bit about the yearly bath made me almost faint.I was actually told that being too clean and washing too much,in medieval times,was a suspect habit and many women were labelled as witches for that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Morticia Date: 07 Oct 00 - 11:44 AM fascinating....thank you, can you imagine having a bath in May and still being considered to smell pretty good in June? What did they smell like in April? How did the species manage to reproduce itself?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:44 PM That's interesting, amusing, and ingenious, but I hope nobody takes the etymologies (properly so spelled) as being true. As an example, tomatoes were once thought to be poisonous, all right, but it was because they are a member of the nightshade family, which has a number of poisonous members. Indeed, tomatoes themselves are today seen, with medical support, as causing some people's arthritis or rheumatism. Laugh, but don't believe every bit of folk etymology you hear. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Áine Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:31 PM I agree with DaveO on this one. It's a cute little page; but I think it's just the result of a couple of folks staying up too late and indulging in too much wine. For example, if you'll crack open your copy of the OED, you'll find the real source and meaning of the word 'wake'. It would appear that a couple of renfair folks thought they would create their own 15th century 'urban legends'. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Jo Taylor Date: 09 Oct 00 - 07:23 PM This one's been circulating the genealogy lists for ages - rather like a chain letter. Rightly entitled BS! Jo Taylor |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Margo Date: 10 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM Dave, thanks for correcting my spelling. Áine: I think I missed something. What is OED? Don't worry, I don't believe everything I read either... I just thought it was interesting - Margo |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Gary T Date: 10 Oct 00 - 12:33 AM OED=Oxford English Dictionary--pretty much THE standard in the British Isles, as I understand it. I would think most, if not all, libraries in English-speaking countries would have a copy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 10 Oct 00 - 08:04 AM Just in case anyine is tempted to take "Life inthe 1500s" seriously, have a look at Take Our Word For It. I can reccommend it highly anyway -- it comes out weekly. But I have to say they're still planting people without much trouble 500 years later; and when there were less than a million folks around, England was B I G! Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Irish sergeant Date: 10 Oct 00 - 09:41 AM Interesting thread. Morty, I suspect our ancesators managed to reproduce because everyone basically smelled the same. I can tell you after three days of campaigning I take no offence at the smell, in fact I don't notice it until I return to the 21st century. If it was only one person, you'd notice. If it's everyone, you don't. I hadn't heard the one about Birdseye. BAttered cod pieces hurts just thinking about it. My guess is the rocket scientist in the advertising dept. that came up with it got to work the road kill account or some such punishment. I hadn't heard about Elizabeth I banning football. I do know Theodore Roosevelt considered it for similar reasons. I believe they started requiring helmets shortly there after. (American football, not soccer)I always figured Gerry Ford forgot his helmet one too many times Hmmm. Hi Aine! Good to read your comments again. I've been Out of commission for a few days. Kindest reguards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 10 Oct 00 - 10:49 AM Wasn't it Teddy Roosevelt who said that any son of his that was afraid of getting a broken arm on the football field was no son of his (or words to that effect)? As for bad smells, we mostly learn to find them bad or good; the bad ones are usually the ones you're not accustomed to. By the way, there are still one or two places in the UK where they traditionally have a monster once-a-year football game: it tends to be along the lines of the Top of the Village against the Bottom of the Village, with hundreds taking part and one or two getting broken arms, legs, ribs, etc. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Carlin Date: 10 Oct 00 - 11:07 AM Well, there is one I am surprised they missed...
Ring-a-round the rosie, was the village children's chant when the set fire to a witch.
And here is a neat one from America...
On the plantations, when they slaughtered a pig, the field hands got the feet and the hamhocks and the tail....the folks in the big house got the hams and the bacon...thus they were livin' "High on the Hog". |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 10 Oct 00 - 12:29 PM Close, Carlin, but no cigar! Ring-a-ring-a-roses (as it goes where I come from) dates from the time of the Plague (1665, the last biggie), and describes the symptoms, a rash of red swellings; the pocket full of posies was a bunch of flowers or herbs or anything that smelled better then the nasty niff from the infected and the dead (it was believed that the infection was spread by noxious odours, which could be kept off by pleasant ones); before you die you start sneezing and then you fall down. In England we only burned witches after they'd been executed by hanging; much more humane than the Scots, who burned 'em alive. By the way, "pretty maids all in a row" was said to be Queen Mary I burning Protestants (I think she burned them alive). I didn't know about "high on the hog", though; thanks for that -- one thing less on my small list of things I don't know! Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Carlin Date: 10 Oct 00 - 12:44 PM Ahhhhhh, so it should be 'achoo achoo...all fall down'. Cool..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 10 Oct 00 - 12:57 PM "Daylight robbery" is a literal term, coming from the window taxes (you paid more if you had more windows, so all the windows in the Big Houses were bricked up to save money). "Beyond the Pale" comes from the idea of the supposed horror and ghastliness of living beyond the English Pale in 14th century Ireland. The Pale was the nice protected bit, safe from the Barbarian hordes of the maurauding natives. A former lecturer of mine insists that the term "Barbaric", which was used by the Romans, describes the non-Latin sounds the uncultured non-Roman rabble made, a "bar bar bar bar blah blah" noise (i.e. they couldn't understand a bleedin' word of it). |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Carlin Date: 10 Oct 00 - 01:05 PM I think Barbarian started out as a Greek term.....and yes it litteraly meant babbler....anyone who didn't speak Greek was a Barbarian. The Romans later picked up the word and used it to describe anyone who didn't appreciate the benefits of Roman governance and unilateral descision making...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Melani Date: 10 Oct 00 - 01:17 PM Steve Parkes--thanks for the link to "Take Our Word for It". I was wondering how the DOGS got up into the thatched roof--they're not known for climbing skills. It just proves the point that if you say anything with enough authority, somebody will believe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Robby Date: 10 Oct 00 - 02:23 PM Coincidence or fate? Today, during our lunch break, one of my colleagues gave us a dramatic reading of "Facts of Life in the 1500s". Then I log onto Mudcat and follow Mago's link. Perhaps this thread could be subtitled "Facts of Life in the 1500s Debunked!". |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: GUEST,emily b Date: 10 Oct 00 - 02:46 PM Fact or fiction, this makes a good read. It's amazing that the human race has managed to survive this long with its bad record of hygiene. Or maybe today we have the bad record. I'm sure the folks of the 1500's were a tougher breed than we are today in our urban, "civilized" societies. I've heard that Napoleon sent word to Josephine: Home in 3 days. Don't bathe." I guess not all the smells were bad. Thanks Margo and the rest of you for sharing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Wavestar Date: 10 Oct 00 - 08:02 PM Steve - You're certainly right about Ring-around-the-rosie, but Posies were also thought to have medicianl value to fight the plague. Barbarian did indeed originally mean anyone who didn't speak Greek. I'm relieved to say that I can't be counted as a barbarian anymore, having now studied that lovely tongue... As for burning witches, yes, Scotland did burn them and anyone else 'bad' alive. We have several sites here in St Andrews where the initials of the burned gentleman (this was in the case of Protestants during the Reformation) are in the pavement or the street, marking the place of execution. One for the obscure rituals book, natasha... Outside the University Chapel on North Street, Patrick Hamilton's initials are in the pavement. If you stand and watch, you'll notice that no student (no, not even me) ever steps on them, as a very long help University tradition holds that if you step on his initials, you'll fail your exams. On the other hand, I've seen several students leaping on them emphatically after graduation... -Jessica |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: CowboyDan Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:35 AM My Latin teacher, who was reputed to be teaching her native tongue, told us that "barbarian" came from "barbarus", meaning "bearded". I think Miss Pergandi would have been surprised to find it came from the Greek. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:55 AM Yes, I'd always believed (since I did latin at school) that "barbarian" came from "barbarus" -- civilised people shave, after all! So if your name's Barabara, you're a "savage woman" (or literally a woman with a beard, I suppose). Fib. Mat., I think "daylight robbery" is more likely to come from the fact that most cut-purses, footpads, highwaymen and other undesirables operated under cover of darkness, so if anyone was brazen enough to rob you in broad daylight in plain view of the whole world, it was mightily shocking. If we all ask TOWFI we can find out! Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: AndyG Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:16 AM RE: Ring-a-round the rosie: This is the AFU view.
Sorry Steve, but Carlin actually seems to be closer (still no cigar though).
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Troll Date: 11 Oct 00 - 07:33 AM Steve...One of the towns that still has the monster ball game is Kirkwall in Orkney where it is called "Ba" and is played between the "Uppies" and the "Doonies". It is played through the rather narrow streets of the town and has been known to last upwards of twelve hours. Surf the Orkney web sites. There are pics. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:13 AM Thanks, Troll -- I'll avoid Kirkwall in future! |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:28 AM No really, I think "daylight robbery" is the window tax thing. If you had more than 5 windows you had to pay tax on them. There's still a few bricked up windows about the Bristish Isles as evidence. I apologise wholeheartedly for misleading people if I'm wrong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: AndyG Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:01 AM F-M,
Are you claiming that bricked up windows are evidence of the etymology of the phrase ?
Why can't "daylight robbery" be the opposite of Burglary as defined in UK Law ? (entering with intent to commit a felony at night).
Occam's Razor and all that.
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:03 AM Well doesn't Occam's Razor apply to the window tax thing? It's simple enough - robbing daylight. Literally. But as I said, I lack the courage of my convictions and hereby relinquish my position as archaeological pedant if I'm wrong! |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: AndyG Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:40 AM Nope Occam doesn't apply to Window Tax as an etymology. Your explanation needs to show that the phrase came into existance during period of that the tax existed, (1696 - 1851) and was used specific reference to the tax during that time, before slowly changing its meaning to its currently understood one.
Occam's razor says that since the phrase "daylight robbery" is a perfectly valid english language construction anyway, there is no reason to look for a complex explanation.
Please note, I'm NOT saying you're wrong, I'm just looking for a cite to prove it.
AndyG |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: AndyG Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:46 AM re my last post:
Read "looking for a cite to prove your contention one way or the other" NOT looking for a cite to prove you're wrong (as it currently reads).
AndyG
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:28 AM There are planty of buildings here that were designed with "blind" windows for architectural reasons -- to avoid leaving a big gap in a row of real windows, or to make the pattern symmetrical, for instance. They even still do it today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Carlin Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:35 AM re:Barbarian.....
In Rome (during the Republic anyway) citizens shaved and slaves wore beards....in Greece it was the opposite. The custom in Rome changed after Hadrian became Emporer. He had a birthmark on his face and he wore a beard to cover it. After his reign it was a matter of personal taste.
The Greek root of Barbarian is Barbarismos (foreigner).
It has been a while since I studied Latin, but I seem to remember beard as barbus, not barbarus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Noreen Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:46 PM Re. barbarian, Brewer's dictionary of Phrase and Fable (1894) expounds: Barbarians is certainly not derived from the Latin barba (a beard), as many suppose, because it is a Greek word, and has many analogous ones. The Greeks and Romans called all foreigners barbarians (babblers; men who spoke a language not understood by them); the Jews called them Gentiles (other nations); the Russians Ostiaks (foreigners). The reproachful meaning crept in from the natural egotism of man. It is not very long ago that an Englishman looked with disdainful pity on a foreigner, and the French still retain much of the same national exclusiveness. "If then I know not the meaning of the voice [words ], I shall be to him that speaketh a barbarian [a foreigner ], and he that speaketh will be a barbarian unto me." - l Cor. xiv. ll. I also looked up daylight robbery, but it's not there- I've never heard it linked with the window tax, for what that's worth. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Penny S. Date: 11 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM I've been interested in the connection between barbarian as a babbler, and the use of the word rhubarb (derived from the same root) to provide crowd noise in plays, etc. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Sourdough Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:51 PM My memory has served up a recollection of the etymology of the Italian province of Lombardy which was originally known as Longobardy, meaning "Long Beard", referring to the custom of the land whereby men wore beards. These people were known for their ability as woodworkers and they made furniture. I believe that the word "lumber" was an old term for furniture and came from the name for the makers. A store room in a home then became known as the "lumber room" and from there, the word for the raw material from which furniture was made was an easy transition so from "long beards" to "lumber" by way of furniture. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Lena Date: 11 Oct 00 - 10:57 PM My mother used to sing me a song about the daughter of the Longobard King Alboino and her nice husband,who had this kind thought for his wife and his father in law:,br> "Drink,Rosamund,drink in your daddy's empty skull... " True historical episode:Rosamund was given a cup made of her father's skull.Never mind barbarians...And yes,I've always been taught that barbarian comes from the greek.Greek were famous for being incredibly ethnocentric...everyone not talking their language was inferior and his language was meant to be inarticulate muttering.As for Dan's latin teacher...latin language is dead.Nobody talks it,apart from poor central-european students at high school...how could it be her native language?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: sophocleese Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:07 PM Window glass was also expensive so many who had townhouses and country houses moved their glass windows, similar to what we do with our storm windows, to whatever house they were going to be living in for the next few months. Thus the unused house would have boarded up windows. |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Troll Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:17 PM I have always thought that "daylight robbery" ocurred when someone demanded an extremely high price for his goods or services as in those people who price gouge after a hurricane or other disaster. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Steve Parkes Date: 12 Oct 00 - 03:50 AM Have a look here for the low-down on "barbarian". I've checked out "daylight robbery" and "ring around the rosie" too, but they haven't got anything on them -- so I've asked, and they may let us know soon. Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: Kim C Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:21 AM I have seen this one several times and while it's cute and fun, don't believe everything you read. Any of you who have ever seen a thatched-roof house will know that maybe a cat could get up there, but unless your dog has wings, there ain't no way. Bugs, birds, twigs, dirt, yes---- the same problems people had with sod houses on the Nebraska plains in the 1800s. The part about the tomatoes is NOT true. Tomatoes didn't even make it to England until the LATE 1500s and even then only as an ornamental plant. It would be nice to believe that people of the 1500s had the technology to discover that tomatoes had acid that leached poison out of their plates. If they even knew lead was poisonous they probably would not have used pewter to make plates. People of the past generally didn't bathe very much since hauling water was a time-consuming affair. The wealthy could afford to bathe more than the poor but I imagine they probably bathed more than once a year, even if it was just a dip in the creek out back. I read that people thought Wild Bill Hickok was eccentric because he insisted on a bath every day - still not a common occurrence in the 1860s. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: some interesting Etamology From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:27 AM Ring-a-ring-a-rosies doesn't appear in written form 'til the 18th Century, apparently. But it's nice when things have stories attached. And maybe it was passed on orally beforehand (yeuk - you can catch all sorts of things from that!). |