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Origins: O Come All Ye Faithful

DigiTrad:
OH COME ALL YE FAITHFUL


Related thread:
(origins) Origins: O Come All Ye Faithful:Ode Bonny Prince (6)


GUEST,Beppe 10 Jan 01 - 05:45 PM
Sorcha 10 Jan 01 - 05:57 PM
Snuffy 10 Jan 01 - 06:02 PM
Sorcha 10 Jan 01 - 06:04 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Jan 01 - 06:19 PM
mousethief 10 Jan 01 - 06:33 PM
Snuffy 10 Jan 01 - 06:40 PM
Joe Offer 10 Jan 01 - 06:41 PM
Burke 10 Jan 01 - 06:47 PM
Wolfgang 11 Jan 01 - 04:01 AM
Wolfgang 11 Jan 01 - 04:10 AM
Tinker 11 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM
Burke 11 Jan 01 - 12:52 PM
Joe Offer 11 Jan 01 - 02:56 PM
Penny S. 11 Jan 01 - 05:21 PM
Burke 11 Jan 01 - 05:55 PM
Joe Offer 11 Jan 01 - 07:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jan 01 - 08:19 PM
Haruo 11 Jan 01 - 09:03 PM
Haruo 11 Jan 01 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 12 Jan 01 - 12:15 AM
mg 12 Jan 01 - 12:28 AM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 01 - 12:59 AM
Haruo 12 Jan 01 - 01:10 AM
Haruo 12 Jan 01 - 01:37 AM
Joe Offer 12 Jan 01 - 02:44 AM
Haruo 12 Jan 01 - 03:07 AM
Wolfgang 12 Jan 01 - 05:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Jan 01 - 05:30 AM
Burke 12 Jan 01 - 12:00 PM
Haruo 12 Jan 01 - 10:13 PM
Haruo 12 Jan 01 - 10:18 PM
MarkS 12 Jan 01 - 10:43 PM
Haruo 12 Jan 01 - 11:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Jan 01 - 02:49 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 01 - 03:47 PM
Haruo 13 Jan 01 - 07:37 PM
Joe Offer 14 Jan 01 - 01:10 AM
Haruo 14 Jan 01 - 02:12 PM
Snuffy 14 Jan 01 - 06:48 PM
Burke 15 Jan 01 - 05:49 PM
Chocolate Pi 15 Jan 01 - 09:00 PM
Haruo 15 Jan 01 - 10:05 PM
Burke 15 Jan 01 - 10:14 PM
Burke 16 Jan 01 - 05:50 PM
Chocolate Pi 16 Jan 01 - 06:52 PM
Burke 22 Jan 01 - 05:29 PM
Joe Offer 22 Jan 01 - 06:42 PM
Burke 23 Jan 01 - 09:31 AM
Haruo 29 Jan 01 - 04:12 PM
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Subject: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: GUEST,Beppe
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 05:45 PM

Is there anybody who knows the history of this song? In p articular, is it true that it is originally an irish traditional song traslated in latin or is it true the reverse?


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 05:57 PM

Oh dear, I don't know the answer to that one, let's look in the old threads about the song.........(never heard that before, though. I am sure Conrad would agree with you, though--inside joke, here. Sorry) Will go check old threads.......stick around.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:02 PM

My hymnal says it's an 18th Century melody, source unknown.

For the words it says "18th century. Translated by F Oakeley, and others". But it doesn't say what language it's translated from - I've always assumed the original was the Latin.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:04 PM

Here is what the Catholic Encylcopedia says about it:

Adeste Fideles
A hymn used at Benediction at Christmastide in France and England since the close of the eighteenth century. It was sung at the Portuguese Legation in London as early as 1797. The most popular musical setting was ascribed by Vincent Novello, organist there, to John Reading, who was organist at Winchester Cathedral from 1675-81, and later at Winchester College. The hymn itself has been attributed to St. Bonaventure, but it is not found among his works. It is probably of French or German authorship. It invites all the faithful to come to Bethlehem to worship the new-born Saviour.

from:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01142b.htm

Also found what Snuffy found.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:19 PM

Has someone a link to the Latin words? I lost my old school hymnbook.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:33 PM

What I could see in doing a brief web search was that it seems to have been written by John Francis Wade. Can't discover in what language it was originally written. It was published in 1782 in Samuel Webbe's An Essay on the Church Plain Chant, and perhaps earlier by Wade himself. Some sites have the Bonaventura theory; others debunk it. Some think Wade wrote the tune, others that it comes from Portugal, perhaps written by a certain Marcus Antonius de Fonseca, master of the chapel of the King of Portugal. We know it was sung at the Portugese Embassy in London in 1797.

Latin words here.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:40 PM

English lyrics and first verse in Latin are in the Digital Tradition O Come All Ye Faithful


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:41 PM

Uh, oh... I see that the database has the Latin lyrics worng, so I guess I'd better submit a correction. At least the database doesn't call it "Adeste Fidelis," mixing it up with the U.S. Marines.

The Latin lyrics for the first verse are:


Adeste, fideles,
Laeti, triumphantes;
Venite, venite in Bethlehem;
Natum videte regem angelorum.
Venite adoremus! Venite adoremus!
Venite adoremus Dominum.

The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols says, "The complex origins of both the words and tune of this universally loved hymn for Christmas Day lie in English Catholic circles of the 1740's. It survives in different versions in several manuscripts copied by John Francis Wade."
Some very credible sources attribute the lyrics to Wade himself. The source of the tune is unknown - it first appeared in a document dated 1782, "An Essay on the Church Plain Chant." In 1841, a London Anglican clergyman, Frederick Oakeley, wrote a translation that began with the line, "Ye faithful, approach ye." After converting to Roman Catholicism, he changed the poem to a new form, "O Come All Ye Faithful," and published it in 1852.

Sources:
The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols
The Hymnal 1940 Companion
(Protestant Episcopal Church in the U.S.A.)
The Christmas Carol Reader (William Studwell, 1995)

Sorry, no Irish origins. It's interesting to see that hymns were being written in Latin in relatively recent times, long after Latin had become a "dead language."

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 06:47 PM

The Sacred Harp has a tune called Portuguese Hymn that is basically the same, but the words are a different translation and it scans a bit differently. Repeated words on last line are omitted.

Hither, ye faithful, haste with songs of triumph,
To Bethlehem haste, the Lord of life to meet;
To you this day is born a Prince and Savior;
Oh come, and let us worship at His feet.

Shout His almighty name, ye choirs of angels,
And let the celestial courts His praise repeat;
Unto our God be glory in the highest,
Oh come, and let us worship at His feet.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 04:01 AM

full latin version here

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 04:10 AM

sorry for the unnecessary link, mousethif has alreaedy linked to the latin lyrics. I thought the version I had found was different, but actually only the order of verses is permutated.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Tinker
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

Al Remsen's A Christmas Celebration in Song and Story,1999. Explains the "Portuguese Hymn" this way...

Since England had rejected Papal authority, there were few locations where Catholics could celebrate the mass. One of the few was the chapel at the Potuguese embassy in London. It is thought to have been brought to the embassy by English pilgrims returning from Douay in Northern France. At the Roman Catholic center for Englishmen in Douay was a resident copyist and music teacher named John Wade, who wrote the Latin verses in 1731. It's unclear if he wrote them or transcriberd another source, but most scholars credit him.

So an Englishman, working in France, writing in Latin created the hymn, which returnt home to England via the Portugese embassy....

Tinker


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Subject: Lyr Add: OH COME ALL YE FAITHFUL
From: Burke
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 12:52 PM

How could I forget? We also sang different words in our Lutheran Church when I was growing up. It was very confusing.

"Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful" by Unknown, 18th century
Translated by Edward C]aswall, 1814-1878 and Philip Schaff, 1819-1893
Text From: THE HANDBOOK TO THE LUTHERAN HYMNAL (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1942)p.84

1. Oh, come, all ye faithful, triumphantly sing;
Come, see in the manger our Savior and King
To Bethlehem hasten with joyful accord;
Oh, come, let us adore Him, Christ the Lord!

2. True Son of the Father, He comes from the skies;
To be born of a virgin He doth not despise.
To Bethlehem hasten with joyful accord;
Oh, come, let us adore Him, Christ the Lord!

3. Hark, hark, to the angels all singing in heaven,
"To God in the highest all glory be given!"
To Bethlehem hasten with joyful accord;
Oh, come, let us adore Him, Christ the Lord!

4. To Thee, then, O Jesus, this day of Thy birth
Be glory and honor through heaven and earth,
True Godhead incarnate, omnipotent Word!
Oh, come, let us adore Him, Christ the Lord!


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Subject: Lyr Add: ADESTE FIDELES / O COME ALL YE FAITHFUL
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 02:56 PM

Actually, it's better to post lyrics of public-domain songs. We figure Mudcat will be here for the long run. Links to other sites might not work a year from now, and our search engines can only search what's posted here.
-Joe Offer-
John Francis Wade, 1711-1786

Adeste, fideles,
Laeti triumphantes,
Venite, venite in Bethlehem.
Natum videte
Regem angelorum.
||: Venite adoremus, :||
Dominum.

En grege relicto,
Humiles ad cunas
Vocati pastores approperant.
Et nos ovanti
Gradu festinemus;
||: Venite adoremus, :||
Dominum.

Stella duce, Magi
Christum adorantes
Aurum, tus es myrrham dant munera.
Iesu infanti
Corda praebeamus;
||: Venite adoremus. :||
Dominum.

Cantet nunc hymnos
Chorus angelorum;
Cantet nunc aula caelestium:
"Gloria, gloria
In excelsis Deo!"
||: Venite adoremus, :||
Dominum.

Deum de Deo,
Lumen de Lumine,
Gestant puellae viscera,
Deum verum,
Genitum non factum.
||: Venite adoremus. :||
Dominum.

Aeterni Parentis
splendorem aeternum,
Velatum sub carne videbimus;
Deum infamtem
pannis involutem.
||: Venite adoremus. :||
Dominum.

Pro nobis erenum
et foeno cubantem,
Piis foveamus amplexibus.
Sic nos amantem
quis non redamaert?
||: Venite adoremus. :||
Dominum.

Ergo qui natus
die hodierna
Iesu tibi sit gloria
Patris aeterni
Verbum caro factum
||: Venite adoremus. :||
Dominum.

-

Oh come, all ye faithful,
Joyful and triumphant,
O come ye, o come ye to Bethlehem!
Come and behold him,
Born the king of angels:
O come let us adore him,
O come let us adore him,
O come let us adore him,
Christ the Lord!

Herbei, o ihr Gläubigen,
Jauchzt und triumphieret,
O kommet, o kommet nach Bethlehem!
Schauet das Kindlein,
Uns zum Heiland geboren!
O lasset uns anbeten,
O lasset uns anbeten,
O lasset uns anbeten,
Den König, den Herrn!

Kami no Miko wa, koyoi shi mo,
Betsurehemu ni umare-tamo,
Iza ya tomo yo, morotomoni,
Isogi yukite ogamazu ya,
Isogi yukite ogamazu ya!

Peuple fidèle,
le Seigneur t'appelle :
c'est fête sur terre,
le Christ est né.
Viens à la crèche
voir le Roi du monde.
||:En lui viens reconnaître :||
ton Dieu, ton Sauveur.


"Adeste fideles" was written around 1742 by an Englishman named John Francis Wade who was employed at the Roman Catholic Center at Douay, France. In 1841 Frederick Oakeley translated it into English and then in 1852 again translated the hymn into the English words known today - "O Come, All Ye Faithful."


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Penny S.
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 05:21 PM

I've always wanted the Latin words - thank you. I notice that this arrived during the time English Catholics were supposed to be expressing their beliefs via numeric riddle songs. See 12 Days ... This is much more a statement of belief, isn't it?

Penny

PS Do I notice no detestation of female insides? Simply that Jesus grew in the girl's viscera? Who did the usual translation which wonders at God's lack of abhorrence? PS


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 05:55 PM

I think it must be the Oakley translation that uses the phrase "abhors not the virgin's womb." I notice a lot of hymnals leave that verse out, newer ones have different translations. The Methodist has this: "Lo, he shuns not the Virgin's womb"

The translation from the Sacred Harp is apparently earlier than the Oakley version, it's also in Lloyds hymnbook of 1834.


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Subject: ADD: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 07:53 PM

Here are the Latin and English lyrics from the Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols:

ADESTE FIDELES

1. Adeste, fideles,
Laeti, triumphantes,
Venite, venite in Bethlehem.
Natum videte
Regem Angelorum.
(Refrain)
Venite adoremus,
Venite adoremus,
Venite adoremus,
Dominum.

2. Deum de Deo,
Lumen de Lumine,
Gestant puellae viscera,
Deum verum,
Genitum non factum.
(Refrain)

3. En grege relicto,
Humiles ad cunas
Vocati pastores appropriant;
Et nos ovanti
Gradu festinemus;
(Refrain)

4. Stella duce, Magi
Christum adorantes
Aurum, thus et myrrham dant munera.
Jesu infanti
Corda praebeamus;
(Refrain)

5. Pro nobis erenum
Et foeno cubantem,
Piis foveamus amplexibus.
Sic nos amantem
Quis non redamaret?
(Refrain)

6. Cantet nunc "Io!"
Chorus angelorum;
Cantet nunc aula caelestium:
"Gloria
In excelsis Deo!"
(Refrain)

7. Ergo qui natus
Die hodierna
Jesu tibi sit gloria
Patris aeterni
Verbum caro factum
(Refrain)


O COME ALL YE FAITHFUL

1. O come, all ye faithful,
Joyful and triumphant,
O Come ye, O come ye, to Bethlehem.
Come and behold Him,
Born the King of angels.
(Refrain)
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
O come, let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord.

2. God of God,
Light of Light,
Lo, he abhors not the Virgin's womb;
Very God
Begotten, not created.
(Refrain)

3. See how the shepherds,
Summoned to His cradle,
Leaving their flocks, draw nigh to gaze;
We too will thither
Bend our hearts' oblations.
(Refrain)

4. Lo, star-led chieftains,
Magi, Christ adoring,
Offer him incense, gold, and myrrh;
We to the Christ-child
Bring our hearts' oblations.
(Refrain)

5. Child, for us sinners,
Poor and in the manger,
Fain we embrace thee with love and awe;
Who would not love Thee,
Loving us so dearly?
(Refrain)

6. Sing, choirs of angels,
Sing in exultation;
Sing, all ye citizens of heaven above!
Glory to God,
In the highest;
(Refrain)

7. Yea, Lord, we greet Thee,
Born this happy morning;
Jesus, to Thee be glory given;
Word of the Father,
Now in flesh appearing.
(Refrain)


English Sources:
verses 1, 2, 6, 7 translated by F. Oakeley (1802-1880), adapted
verses 3, 4, 5 translated by W.T. Brooke (1848-1917), adapted.

Latin Sources:
verses 1, 2, 6, 7 - anonymous (eighteenth century)
verses 3, 5 - Abbé E.J.F. (de) Borderies (1764-1832)
verse 4 - anonymous (nineteenth century)


-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 08:19 PM

That Lutheran version would be a bit of a bugger to sing with the custonary tune. You must have a different tune.

We always used to sing the Latin version as a kid. I still think it sings better, it's a real belter to end the service. A lot of the Engish version scans badly. Including the "abhors not the virgin's womb" - which is also disrespecful.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 09:03 PM

Thanks for the full Latin, Joe et al. The Cyber Hymnal, I'm pretty sure, has a tune that will work for the Caswall translation (I'll go check and be right back; meanwhile...

From The Gospel in Hymns: Backgrounds and Interpretations, by Albert Edward Bailey, New York: Scribner's, 1950, pp 278-9:

Adeste fideles          John Francis Wade, 1744

O come, all ye faithful          Tr Frederick Oakley, 1841, altered
Come hither, ye faithful          Tr Edward Caswall, 1849

     The facts about this "anonymous" Latin hymn were long obscure. However, in 1946, by chance an English vicar discovered a small manuscript of musical selections for chapel use among Roman Catholics, in which we are given certain data.
     The author of the hymn was John Francis Wade, a man whose business apparently was to copy music for Catholic institutions and families in various places. He was an Englishman by birth but had early moved to Douai in France. There he wrote the hymn in 1744 and set it to the music which with few changes we still use. The first part of the air was probably written by him, because it was referred to as an "English" air, but it was helped out with phrases that sound like Handel, then in his prime.
     An edition of Wade's MS was made in 1750 for the English Roman Catholic College in Lisbon, Portugal, which also was used in the chapel of the Portuguese embassy in London. Hence, when the words and music came into wide and ultimately universal use in England, the music was called "Portuguese Hymn."
     But its popularity in all English-speaking countries is universal; hardly a congregation fails to sing it at every Christmas time. Such popularity is testimony to its genuine worth.
     In the first place, the method of presentation is dramatic. The poet takes us by the hand and leads us with triumphant song to the cave of the Nativity in Bethlehem, shows us the Babe, and bids us adore.
     Next, in a stanza that many hymnals omit or modify, we are given an explanation of what we see; it is not a human infant, but God. Here the language is taken literally from the ancient Greek creeds of the fourth century.
     The choirs of angels now burst upon us, urged on to further song by our own exuberance. The shepherds enter the cave; they join us as we kneel in adoration. We speak to the child direct and make our offering of love and praise.
     This is all so simple, so vivid in imagery, so sincere in emotion, that barring a few theological phrases a child can understand it and enter sympathetically into the experience of worship and joy.
(The Gospel in Hymns is worth consulting when questions arise concerning, especially, the authors of the older, more staid English hymn texts. Bailey (of liberal Baptist background) was very much a social-gospel adherent, and his comments on the theology or teaching of the hymns must be read with his own theology in mind; his selection of hymns to annotate was dictated by those most frequently included in 10 early-20th-century hymnals of mainstream denominations (1 British, 2 Canadian, 7 American). He pays almost no attention to the tunes, and arranges the hymns according to their textual authorship. Although there are cases where hymnology has progressed over the past 51 years in ways that make Bailey "wrong" in occasional details, for the most part he is as reliable as any of his competitors on the kinds of issues he addresses. Like most "mainstream" hymnologists before about 1975, he is deliberately ignorant of "gospel hymns and gospel songs" — Fanny Jane Crosby isn't even mentioned, for example, nor is Robert Lowry (nor Bradbury, nor Sankey...), and he is unknowingly ignorant of the American shapenote traditons. Since the ten hymnals he based his study on share his prejudices (except in theology), he is blissful in his ignorance... - Liland)


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 09:12 PM

Sure enough, the tune I was thinking of is called Barnby, and there's a link to a MIDI of it at Come hither, ye faithful, which was Caswall's original incipit (also referred to in The Gospel in Hymns. The Cyber Hymnal also has a page on Caswall himself.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 12:15 AM

Here's a tune I copied from a ballad opera several years ago. It start out much the same.

X:1
T:An Irish Tune
S:Act 3, Air #20, The Beggar's Wedding, 1729
Q:1/4=100
L:1/4
M:C
K:C
AcBc|d2G2|ede/f/g|e2ce|ecdB|cABd|BA/G/D^F|G2G2||\
cedg|e2c2|ecAd|B2G2|eGAc|ged2|ecGB|c2c2|]


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: mg
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 12:28 AM

why do the latin versions here say "cantet" instead of "cantate". It is the command verb (I forget the right name)...like venite or laudate...

,I have always sung it as cantate nunc lo...mg


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 12:59 AM

Gee, Mary, are you sure you want to know?
"Chorus" is singular, and "cantet" is third person singular subjunctive, not imperative - it expresses a desire that the choir of angels sing, since we mere mortals cannot command them to sing. If you wanted to use the imperative, it would have to be "canta," since you're dealing with a singular chorus here.
Now, aren't you sorry you asked? By the way, I guess I have to say that it's an inferior Latin version I copy-pasted at 02:56 PM. I proof-read both the Latin and English from the New Oxford Book of Carols quite carefully, so that's the better version to use.
My mother the Latin teacher would be so proud of me, still using my Latin after all these years...
-Joe Offer, holder of the Auxilium Latinum award-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 01:10 AM

Ah yea, ye subjunctive! (Puts me in mind of Tom Lehrer's remark recetly quoted here.) One of the functions of a really functional subjunctive (and yea, Latin hath such an one!) is to stand in the stead of an imperative, but with less force. To express hearty hope and the like, in lieu of insistence and shoving. Auxilium... Auxilium... no, not armpit... ;-) Tibi gratium agimus, Joe, matrique tuae!

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 01:37 AM

Typo. Should be "gratiam", not "gratium". Think I had auxilium on the brain. Auxilium didn't help, anyhow... ;-)

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:44 AM

Hey, Liland - Mater didn't have anything to do with it. Once her son started studying Latin, Mom wimped out, and started studying Italian. She refers all Latin questions to her darling son. Now, at the age of 78, she's thinking of taking up Yiddish.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 03:07 AM

Well tell 'er I said mazel tov! Un dos du retst lateynish zeyer gut.

Liland
Not sure if I'm better at Latin or Yiddish


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 05:13 AM

The song is very popular in Germany (Herbei, O Ihr Glaeubigen), translated shortly after it was written by Friedrich Heinrich Ranke.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 05:30 AM

From what I remember of the midnight mass on Christmas eve no-one could tell what language half the congregation were singing in anyway.

After a night out at the pub they were singing in tongues...:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 12:00 PM

Liland, thanks for the cyberhymnal link to Caswell's original translation. But in answer to whether it scans or not, The Lutheran Hymanal does use the traditional tune. Do you think it doesn't fit because the repeats were not written out, or for some other reason? It's fairly traditional to not write out repeated phrases when hymn words alone are given, since one setting may repeat them, while another doesn't.

Some late 19th & early 20th century hymnals I've seen also use this tune with How Firm a Foundation.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 10:13 PM

Well, Burke, it was McGrath of Harlow, not I, that expressed doubts about the singability of the Caswall text to the Portuguese Hymn/Adeste Fideles tune. I merely supplied him (and us all) with an alternative that I knew was explicitly linked with the Caswall text. But I must admit that when I try to sing the Caswall to the usual tune it is, as the McGrath said, a bit of a bugger (though I think that may be harsher language over where he is than here). It does not scan well to it. Not impossibly, but far from easily (and, I'm afraid, far from attractively to my mind's ear). So I shall continue to use Barnby for Caswall and save Adeste Fideles for Oakeley and the original. I've got a Lutheran hymnal from the fifties at home; I'll have to check and see what it gives.

In my online hymnal there's a page on the history of the song from the viewpoint of the Esperanto versions, which contains this passage:
La Esperanta versio de Butler, kaj la unua kaj kvara strofoj de la versio de Milsom, sajnas bazitaj sur la angla versio de Oakeley au, en la kazo de Butler, eble rekte sur la latina teksto de Wade. La strofoj 2a, 3a kaj 5a de Milsom, aliflanke, sajne bazigis sur alia angligo, malpli proksima al la latinajo, farita de William Thomas Brooke (1848-1917).

which is to say

Butler's Esperanto version, and the first and fourth stanzas of Milsom's, seem to be based on the English version of Oakeley or, in Butler's case, possibly directly on Wade's Latin text. Stanzas 2, 3 and 5 of Milsom, on the other hand, seem to have been based on another English translation, less close to the Latin, made by William Thomas Brooke (1848-1917).
I believe this is the first mention of Brooke's translation in this thread. The version in The Cyber Hymnal is an amalgamation of Oakeley and Brooke (seven verses, of which 1-3 and 7 are Oakeley's, 4-6 Brooke's, I think).

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 10:18 PM

Here are the stanzas from The Cyber Hymnal that I believe to be Brooke's translation:

See how the shepherds, summoned to His cradle,
Leaving their flocks, draw nigh to gaze;
We too will thither bend our joyful footsteps;

Lo! star led chieftains, Magi, Christ adoring,
Offer Him incense, gold, and myrrh;
We to the Christ Child bring our hearts' oblations.

Child, for us sinners poor and in the manger,
We would embrace Thee, with love and awe;
Who would not love Thee, loving us so dearly?


Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: MarkS
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 10:43 PM

Penny S - A facinating hint there about 12 days, English number riddle songs, and Catholic belief. Can you give us more details or provide a link?


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Subject: For MarkS
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 11:54 PM

For MarkS:

Look here for a currently ongoing thread where Penny and others discuss these matters, with links to a couple of outside sites and a couple of previous threads with related material.

A New Dial, while not necessarily from the period when Catholicism went underground in England, is probably the most clearly religious-mnemonic of the texts that have been mentioned so far.

At the time of Wade's composition (or copying, since his authorship is not 100% proven) of Adeste Fideles, while the overt persecution of Catholics in England was a thing of the past and an English Catholic could no longer be imprisoned for teaching a kid a catechism (at least, I'm pretty sure this was no longer possible), the Roman Church was still subject to a fair amount of discrimination in a variety of aspects of British public life, including political activity and higher education. Hence the fact that Wade worked in Douai. The Catholics were unable to maintain monasteries and seminaries in England, so the training of priests for English parishes (though they no longer risked their lives to say mass) and the compilation and publishing of devotional and confessional printed materials were carried out on the continent. Douai had been one of the centers of this activity since the reign of Elizabeth, and the Catholic English Bible was published there in 1609 (two years before a new English Bible was dedicated to King James in London); the Catholic New Testament had come out in 1582 (I'm doing these dates from memory, so check them before you count on them) in Rheims, so the Catholic version of 1582-1609 is sometimes called the Rheims-Douay or Douay-Rheims, but usually just the Douay Version. Like the 1611 Protestant version, the Douay Bible with minor revisions remained the English Catholic standard in both UK and US until well into the 20th century. And it was at that same center of English Catholic learning in France that Wade produced the earliest known (and very likely original) manuscripts of Adeste Fideles.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 02:49 PM

"McGrath said, a bit of a bugger (though I think that may be harsher language over where he is than here)

No, that's a pretty mild expression in my part of the world. My eminently respectable piller-of-the-church 89 year-old father-in-law would say it without turning a hair, to refer to any minor problem, and so forth.

In this context all it means is, it would be a little difficult to sing those words to that particular tune.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 03:47 PM

Hi, Liland - look at the Latin and English texts I posted above. You're right - those three verses come from Brooke. Some of the Latin verses I posted did not come from Wade. I neglected to note that, but I can look it up if anybody's interested. The Oxford Book of Carols seems to be an exceptionally reliable source for information on carol texts.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 07:37 PM

Personally I am indeed interested in the provenance of the various Latin verses. Yes, Joe, let me know; and I did see your (SOBP) reference to Brooke after I posted mine. - Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 01:10 AM

Hi, Liland - I added the sources to the lyrics II posted above.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 02:12 PM

My 1958 Service Book and Hymnal of the Lutheran Church in America has the Oakeley verses of O Come All Ye Faithful.

It also uses ADESTE FIDELES for How Firm a Foundation (it shares with the 1958 edition of the Pilgrim Hymnal the distinction of being, within my collection, the most recent hymnal to use something other than FOUNDATION for How Firm a Foundation; on the other hand the earliest hymnal I have that does give FOUNDATION is the 1935 Methodist Hymnal). The 1934 Hope and Rodeheaver books (both of which were published in both round- and shape-note editions) in spite of their shapenote awareness (not shared by most denominational hymnal committees until the 1970s) give only ADESTE FIDELES. I would welcome information from British and Commonwealth sources on these issues (especially the tunes - MONTGOMERY, ADESTE FIDELES, FOUNDATION or something else - which specific hymnals use or recommend for How Firm a Foundation).

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 06:48 PM

"Songs of Praise", ed. R Vaughan Williams and Matin Shaw (original edition 1931, enlarged edition undated) does not have How Firm a Foundation, but gives MONTGOMERY (attributed to W Champness in Chapman's Musical Companion, 1772) as the tune for " O source divine, and life of all" by John Sterling, 1806-44

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 05:49 PM

For all you who can't get the version from the Lutheran Hymnal to scan, I'll just say you'll have to take my word for it. I've done since a child, so for me there's no problem. I think the key is that the slurs come in different places in the different versions, but I don't really have the time to sit down & do the comparisons. Maybe if you listen to the midi it will make sense. http://www.lutheran-hymnal.com/online/tlh-102.mid

Liland, I did know it wasn't you who asked, I just started combining all my comments. The hymnal I was referring to is the one used by the Missouri Synod Lutherans. It is just called The Lutheran Hymnal. It was published in the 1940's & some churches still use it. It's a good source for German chorales but weak on anything really American in origin, except for a few Lowell Mason hymns. Follow my link for the texts

Looking at other hymnals, I can only say there were a whole lot of variants on the translations used until early in the 20th cent. the Oakeley seems to have won out.

Foundation is called Bellevue in The Sacred Harp & is an American Folk hymn. It's 1844 arrangement is attributed to Z. Chambless. A fair number of southern based churches picked up the shape note tunes & rearranged them in the early part of this century. Not so much shape note aware, as popular hymn tunes still in use. If you want to find early non-shape versions try to find Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptists in their southern branches as well as 7th day Adventist and Church of Christ. I have a Church of Christ hymnal from the 30's that has both Foundation & Adestes Fideles with How firm a foundation. I found both the Episcopal and Lutheran hymnals of the 1940's used completely different tunes. Episcopal used Lyons & The Lutheran Hymnal one that may have been composed for it as it's dated 1930's by someone with a German name.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Chocolate Pi
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 09:00 PM

My new copy of An American Christmas Harp has the Sacred Harp "Hither ye faithful" first verse, but has a second verse (all attributed to J.F. Wade) which I haven't seen on this thread:

O Jesus for such wondrous condescension,
Our praises and rev'rence are an off'ring meet;
Now is the Word made flesh and dwells among us;
O come and let us worship, (3x)
at his feet.


Chocolate Pi


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 10:05 PM

Very interesting, Chocolate Pi. Never saw that before. To Wade, of course, is attributable (it's not proven but likely) the Latin original of some (4?) of the stanzas, not any of the English versions. It would be interesting to know who did the Hither ye faithful translation. Was it in the 1844 Sacred Harp (or any earlier shapenote books)? If so, it seems to me to predate Caswall's version (which it seems more like than Oakeley (though come to think of it, did we find out exactly what Oakeley's earlier, preconversion version looked like?)...

Liland


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 10:14 PM

The Hither ye Faithful translation is definately older. I found it in Lloyd's Primitive Hymns as well as the Sacred Harp. Lloyd's dates from the 1830's. I think it has 3 verses & will compare it to the Christmas Harp when I get a chance. I do remember that no translator is listed in either SH or Lloyd's.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 05:50 PM

An American Christmas Harp does list Wade as the translator of the Hither ye faithful translation. I'm not sure why it's so listed, but I'm sure the editor/compiler is on the fasola discussion group, so if you ask there you might find out.

The 1834 version in Lloyd's has 3 verses. 1 is Hither, ye faithful. 2 is Jesus, for such wondrous condescension (Chocolate Pi's 2. without the O, but the O is needed to make it scan). 3 is Shout his almighty name (Sacred Harp 2) This version does have difficulty with scanning, you have to come in on the down beat the way the Oakeley version does on after verse one, instead of the upbeat with the 1st pitch repeated.

I did find Foundation in a hymnal from 1897, published in Harrisburg, PA by a group called the United Evangelical Church. In the composer spot on the page it was listed as American Spiritual.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Chocolate Pi
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 06:52 PM

A facsimile of the 1846 reprinting of the ninth edition of the Missouri Harmony has the three verses Burke lists immediately above, the first and third of which are in the Denson Sacred Harp. The Missouri version is three lines and gives the melody and start of the fugue to the treble; the Sacred Harp version has four lines, the melody in the tenor, and the fugue starting with alto and tenor together, as does the Christmas Harp.


Chocolate Pi


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 05:29 PM

I was not going to try to get the last word in on this, but then I looked at The Southern Harmony over the weekend.

You can find the Music for Portuguese Hymn with the Hither, ye faithful words in the Online Southern Harmony. It was published in 1834 so that's more evidence for it as older. The music is appearing as garbage for me, if anyone else finds the same problem, I'll e-mail a complaint.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:42 PM

Hi, Burke - I got the same garbage on the GIFs, so I e-mailed the Southern Harmony site and let them know about it.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Burke
Date: 23 Jan 01 - 09:31 AM

I'd already decided to go ahead & e-mail. This is the reply I got:

Yep, there are a couple of images and midis that are corrupted. Sadly, I don't have correct versions any more.

I have replied to find out what is needed to get correct images as there are many copies of the orginal around & I'm sure they can be pretty easily located.


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Subject: RE: Help: O Come All Ye Faithful
From: Haruo
Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:12 PM

It would seem to me anybody with a copy of the SoH (1835, not 1834, is usually the date cited; a later reprint would work as well, and many libraries have such) and a scanner ought to be able to make new files that would work in place of the damaged ones. Or somebody who knows their GIFs might be able to turn the damaged ones into text files, spot and fix the damage, and reGIF 'em.

Liland


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