My Sales Seminar Massacree

Subject: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:36 AM

Back in pre-history I lived with a stunning and highly ambitious woman...I know, what the hell was she doin' with a lazy folksinger...and she tried everything in her power to get me to learn an alternative trade. (ya know, something "stable" for when the gigs dried up!)

She insisted I go with her to a lecture by a man named Chester "Bud" Roberts, who'd tell us all how to be successful in "sales".

Now today I wouldn't go across the street to see someone named either 'Chester', or especially a 50 year old man who called himself "Bud" (it's like "Biff"), but as Dylan says "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now".

We sat down surrounded by folks who either looked like "Ken" without Barbie, or recent tiny brown immigrant men from Sri Lanka. I was incredibly nervous and uncomfortable (these were the days before I discovered Quentin Crisp, and real false courage) and when "Bud" strode on the stage like the super-confidant big shot he was, I wanted to run out the door.

He spent an hour and a half telling us we could be "anything we wanted to be in America". I guess he'd forgotten he was in Canada at the time! All we needed was 'shined shoes, a 'proper' haircut, an expensive suit, and most importantly, a Cadillac!! He said we should go into debt if neccessary for the car, because "all good salesmen know you have to impress the client first before they'll buy from you". It struck me as it would help a lot if you were also white, six foot three, and looked and spoke like Rush Limbaugh (he did). He opened his suit jacket and showed us the fancy lining, and then pulled off his Rolex and waved it in our unsuccessful faces. His last parlour trick was to produce his wallet and let at least 25 credit cards unfold in their plastic covers. One of his techniques to keep us on our toes, was to spin around and very suddenly point to someone in the audience and exclaim "isn't that RIGHT sir", after giving us a sales tip. Some of the shyer immigrant men, practically passed out when he pointed at them.

Needless to say I left the lecture feeling an even bigger fuck-up than when I'd come in, and wondering if Nancy was fantasizing about which Hotel "Bud" was staying at.

Struck me as this kind of approach has a lot of built in flaws. I know it depends a lot on "positive thinking" and radiating self-confidence, but I can't help but thinking that unless you grow up with that kind of garrulous, "take charge" attitude, you can buy all the Rolexes in New York, but you're still gonna look like someone IMPERSONATING a super salesman.....and customers will see through it.

My Dad was a pharmaceutical saleman, and although I think he would have agreed with the "shoeshine" part, I think he would have said that a REALLY thorough knowledge of the product, hard work and a pleasant manner would be all that you'd need to be a success. 'Course he was coming from a still earlier time.

Thanks for indulging me. I have know idea why this memory came up, other than I think Spaw mentioned "sales seminar" in another thread.

Contributions welcome.

Rick

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:46 AM

I like it, Rick. I always love your ruminations.

~S~

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:01 AM

"And he wasn't into selling door to door

And he worked like the devil to be more"

I actually "sold" vacuums at one time. The word is in quotations because I never sold a single one. I just wasn't into it. Even though I tried to pattern myself after the slick suited guy who recruited me, there was not a chance that I could pass myself off as a salesman.

Each year in elementary school all of us were commanded to go out and sell magazines. In high school it was chocolate candy. I invariably held the record for the least sales. I would have given anything I owned to have gotten out of having to ring some stranger's doorbell in order to try to sell them something I knew damned well that they hadn't asked for.

It has always been a suspicion of mine that the majority of people in the performing arts usually lack whatever it takes to self-promote. I could be wrong. But it appears to me that if that gene or whatever were present in many of us, we would have more of the limelight. Oh, sure, there are exceptions like Jaquelyn Smith and Madonna. But I think people like them represent a very small portion of the whole.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 03:10 AM

The radio station I worked for had various high=pressure sales classes every once in awhile. While looking successful was always stressed, we were not told we had to buy a Caddy to do so!

Most of them were crap, with the ocassional decent foray into positive thinking, confident self-image and everything, but the best one of all taught what you've said your dad would say, Rick: know your product, know your market, and know yur client's needs and market.

The best one taught what he called "Consultant Selling"...really all it took was being a good listener, you go into a person's business, take the time to ask them if they have time for you, then ask them to tell you about their business. Every once in awhile, you interject with a feeedback of "So what I hear you saying is blah, blah, blah" and bingo, you've made them feel important because they have your undivided attention, you've actually listened to what they've said, as evidenced by your paraphrasing it back to them, THEN you've got them ready to listen to what you can do to help them achieve their goals, which you already know from what they've told you.

The other big thing was always, in the actual ads, to stress the benefits, not the features. "You'll sleep like a baby on so and so's oh-so-soft, yet firm and supportive matress" not, "sos and so's matress has 5,000 coil springs, boxed up in a frame of warped boards, with ten inch nails sticking straight up, with neat suspension and sagless middle section supported by a steal beam wieghing ten tons!"

Well, you get the idea. Bottom line, IMO, the best salespeople are the ones who take the time to listen, to make a person feel heard and valued and that is true in any relationship, business or personal.

This should be a fun one, Rick. can't wait to hear more of what Spaw has to say.

I'll ask Rog what his dad used to say. He sold all kinds of things door to door while also working as a journalist and radioman...raised 5 kids so must've been pretty good at it.

kat

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 04:02 AM

Perhaps a little unkind of me to say it but don't commercial 'musicians' and 'singers' adopt the same attitude - and it seems to work! Regardless of talent you will always get someone who looks the part and acts the part who will make it big. Look at some of the teen bands on the scene now - as well as some more 'folksy' acts of old - and you will know what I mean.

I am not going to name names - leave it to you to guess who!

We all do it to a certain extent - I have made my living pretending to know more about the unix operating system than most. Pick a sphere obscure enough, speak with enough confidence and it is pretty easy realy;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 08:40 AM

Rick - My first laugh of the day. Motivational Training was a big part of my required education as a new sales rep for Domino Sugar. During one particularly obnoxious presentation by a man whose only credentials were that he had been a VP at four different companies in three years (????) I got a little playful. He hadn't even researched the group he would be addressing. We were industrial sales people selling truckloads and tankloads of sugar to manufacturers. He was babbling about POP sales and grocery situations. He finally realized his mistake and fell back on that old cliche "Features and Benefits" selling. Let's list the features of Domino Sugar over its competitor's and see how we can use them to increase sales!!!! Well sugar is sugar. Even beet sugar is pretty much like cane sugar unless you are boiling it in a closed kettle. SO, I piped up that Domino Sugar was twice as sweet as our competitor's and our customers only needed to use half as much. So even if our price was 20% higher, we actually saved them money. He sighed with relief - his seminar was saved. He could go on for the rest of the day on this tidbit - and he did while we all sat there taking notes and enjoying the joke. A mean trick but he wasted 7 hours of my life and deserved it.

The best (worst??) of these seminars was the ones for pyramid marketing schemes. Anyone ever get invited into one of those. I was at one where the guy burned 4100 bills to impress us with how much money he made. Shined shoes, Rolex, Rolls Royce, etc. LAter learned it was repossessed for non-payment and a warrant was out for his arrest on fraud charges.

Allan has it right. Professional sales people know their products and where to sell them. Success comes from providing a service where it is needed. I have been in salkes my whole life and am proud of the work I do and the services I render. No Rolex; no car; and I wear sneakers to work - God bless the internet.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Gary T
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:42 AM

I'd say what "Bud" was really teaching was "How to be Bud." We all have different personalities, skills, styles, knowledge, etc. Some of this can be learned, and some cannot. Some of what can be learned comes easily to some folks, and only with great difficulty to others.

Given an individual's set of traits, he may be apt to be a good salesman, OR a good musician, OR a good machinist, OR....I think many of these motivational/training seminars consist of folks who naturally take to "whatever" attempting to infuse said "whatever" to all attendees, only a small portion of whom are fertile ground to learn it. We can probably all learn something, but very few are going to become "Bud."

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:52 AM

Rick, this has all the markings of a great parody. "Point and Spin" (Aragon Mills. maybe)

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:00 AM

I've been in sales since I got out of High School. I do pretty well at it but have absoluetly no interest in a Rolex or a Caddy. I've seen so many of these Seminar guys and most make me sick. Their Bottom line tends to be do whatever it takes to make a buck, sell your mom or kids if need be.

My beliefs are very similar to what Rick mentioned. Know your product, know your strengths and weaknesses as a supplier, know the same about your competition, know and be able to present your value to your customer, and most importantly, service, service, service. "I'll know my song well before I start singing".

Sinsull mentioned the guy charged with fraud. Years ago I saw a customer come in with the tailored suit, the Rolex, more gold than Fort Knox. One of the old timers said "I've seen his type before, All flash, no cash".

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:14 AM

"sELL tHE sIZZLE' sTEVE. tee hee

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:18 AM

Yeah.........................

Sorrowfully most of the sales training and motivational stuff is on that level you describe Rick. Kat and Steve both talk of other things and those are far more important as your Dad knew. Selling is not a slimy and sleazy profession as guys like Bud tend to lead us to believe. Product knowledge, especially with focus on benefits and not features, listening for comprehension and not speed, and most importantly, the ability to ask open ended questions and CONTROL the conversation that way (through questions, not statements), are the real skills that the best have learned. Combine that with the precious ability to shut the fuck up and not talk your way OUT of the sale, and you too can do the job.

Spaw

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:31 AM

Oh, yeah, that last bit Spaw said, BiGGEST rule of them all! That and don't forget to ask for the close, i.e. sign the contract, write the check etc.!

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:34 AM

"Spaw, Amen about shut the fuck up and not talk your way out of a sale. That's probably the second biggest mistake I've seen people make in sales. The biggest? Not asking for the order.

I went looking for a TV years ago. Keep in mind that salesmen are the easiest people in the world to sell to. I went to one store, the guy gave me a wonderful demonstration, features, quality of the product vs what else was on the market etc., determined that it was in my price range and then handed me his business card and said to come see him if I came back.

I went down the street to another store, stood in front of the same model. A salesman came up to me and asked if I needed help. I told him that I was interested in this TV (same price as the other store). He said, "yeah it's a great TV, do you have any questions about it?" I told him "no". He said "do you want one?" I said "yes" and was out of the store ten minutes later. I felt like a bit of a schmuck after the fact because the first guy had sold me ON the tv, but realized that the second guy had SOLD me the TV.

I have told that story countless times when I've trained new salespeople. And anytime I'm in a slump I ask myself if I'm asking for the order, usually the answer has been "no".

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:35 AM

You beat me to it Kat.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:37 AM

There are some really interesting gimmicks that are used at some of the sales seminars I have attended. I once sold Discovery Toys (not a bad gig, really). At a the first sales seminar I attended, a woman was introduced as the #1 sales person of the year with a total of four zillion in sales. She held one of the cool little plastic chain links that Dicovery Toys sells. She then asked for a show of hands for those who had sold a half a zillion dollars worth of merchandise this month. She gave a plastic link to each. Then she asked to see a show of hands for a lesser increment in sales, gave each a link, and so on until she finally got down to a number with which I could identify, zero. Then she asked us all to hold our links up high. And in that moment she showed us that we were all equally important parts of the orgainization and that we were all linked together by Discovery Toys. Hooray! Yee Hah!

I was truly impressed. I felt that I was important. I felt empowered. I went right home and sold something! But by the end of the following week, my enthusiasm had waned and I needed another "fix" of sales spirit. It wasn't going to be available for at least a month. And so my sales career quietly fizzled. Again.

But I got to keep my samples kit! My kids grew up with some of the world's finest toys!

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:53 AM

I have always loved to "play" with salespeople. The guy Steve first described is typical........"Here's everything I know about this product" happens a lot because training often emphasizes product knowledge. The question really is, "What do you want this thing to do?" Why tell me more than I want to know? Then close early and often.

I LOVE the ones who have learned the script!!! We had a fellow come in selling vacuum cleaners and they are classic demo/script guys! Before he got into anything, I said, "I've heard a lot of good things about these, I think we'll take one.".........NEVER batted an eye, just continued on with the pitch! Every few minutes I'd make some "we'll take it" kind of comment and it never stopped him. Finally I said, "Uh, just when are you going to asked for the order?"...........His "punch" line was a beaut!!! Are you ready??......He said:

That comes at the end.

Spaw

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 10:58 AM

"That comes at the end". Hysterical> Yeah I play with those guys too. But I sure appreciate a professional and will return time and time again to someone who won't waste my time.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:03 AM

I know what you mean Steve. I had an especial appreciation for a car salesman whose first question was, "Do you have any money?" It may have put a few people off I suppose, but it led him (and me) directly into the sale.

Spaw

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:20 AM

The great "sales seminar Massacree" of '73 (as described) happened to late to have an effect on my abortive "Door to door Encylopaedia salesman" carreer. That lasted two days, and resulted in no books sold.

Other carreers suggested to me by the aforementioned lady:

Cosmetician

Artificial nail installer

Pizza delivery boy (to learn the Pizza "biz")

Music store owner (I actually DID that for ONE day!)

Private School music teacher

Hot dog and corn on the cob vendor at the corner of Yonge and Dundas st.

hairdresser.

If I didn't still know several people who were around during that time, I'd have trouble believing it really happened.....but it did! Who WAS that guy?! To be fair, her motives were pure. Her Daddy had been a musician who drank away her family's money.

Rick

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:23 AM

Rick,

I just can't see you as a cosmetician or a hairdresser.

Steve

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:29 AM

Well I HAD seen the movie "Shampoo" with Warren beatty, and figured if the customers looked like Julie Christie.....

R

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:37 AM

Well Rick, you're one helluva' picker, so maybe you could have gotten into "Lice Management".............

Spaw (slinking away for that awful excuse for a joke)

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:40 AM

Hate to break it to you Rick, you ain't no Warren Beatty.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:44 AM

Well, one of my many side careers is, I'm a Mary Kay gal. No I don't drive a pink Cadillac and don't especially want one. My approach is, I sell this stuff, it's really good, if you want it great, if you don't great. I never shove because I hate when people do that to me. I don't do scripts because you can always tell when someone's doing a script. (Now, some people are really good at the script thing, and that's fine for them.)Even with that very laid-back approach, I have paid for vacations, Christmas shopping, etc., and get all my own stuff at a discount. Not bad. Plus my skin has really cleared up! :)

Sales is a skill just like any other. Unfortunately a lot of companies don't realize this and will hire anyone who's breathing, and give them little to no training. -sigh- It just don't work that way...

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:48 AM

Oh yeah Rick, Music store owner for one day? There's a story there, care to share it?

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Metchosin
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 12:03 PM

Maybe the car thing still carries some weight in some circles but....... I was at a social gathering last summer which included a number of my husband's clients and possible prospective clients, some from here and some from down in the States, when an American gentleman approached me and suggested that I should convince Jim that he should get a more appropriate car, as his current vehicle might not be confidence inspiring. He obviously didn't realize that most of the people there were already customers, despite the Columbo cruiser.

My husband is sort of oblivious to his mode of transport as long as it runs and he can continue to use it as a mobile office, garbage can and paper storage bin and if he has to transport a customer, he just clears a space in the mound of debris and somehow they cope. His current vehicle is now 29 years old and there are a few rust spots poking out through the dirt.

We have other money pits (two daughters in post secondary education) so a new car is currently not a priority and we also have always had more work than we can sometimes handle comfortably, while still maintaining a commitment to service and basically a one man show.

My husband guiding principal....be a good listener.....tell the truth.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 12:10 PM

The basics are easy 1) know your product 2)know your customer 3)Sell the customer what he's needing, not what you need to sell him 4)Follow up...if you say you'll do something, do it and on time 5) Never guess....if you don't know, admit it, tell the customer you'll find out the answer, and get it

I left sales because, no matter how good you are, you're only as good as your last year. Also, my company, as it became more successful, became more and more confident that it knew what was right for the customer. The salesman's job then became teaching the customer that this product is what he needed. This leads to what I call top-down selling, and is the kind of selling characterized by the speil, very counter-productive, and setting the stage for someone who listens to what the customer wants being put in a strong position. This is why older, successful companies are often easy prey for the up-and-comers.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM

Actually Leej, you're only as good as as yesterday!! Its true that a lot of sale managers have a favorite line----"What have you done for me lately?"

Your numbered list reminded me of one of my favorite movie lines as well where selling was summed up in a list like that. Have you seen "Used Cars?" Kurt Russell explains selling to one guy by saying, "Its easy. Get their friendship, get their confidence, get their trust, get their money!" Always cracked me up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: dwditty
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 12:28 PM

Hey, but us travelling salesmen sure got some stories.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:11 PM

Anyone ever see the movie "Tin Men" starring Danny DeVito and Richard Dreyfuss?

Everyone thought it was a comedy. I couldn't find the humor in the lengths the salesmen had to go to to make a living, and found myself in tears from sadness, not laughter.

Wouldn't be a salesperson for anything...I'd be sure to starve to death...

Lin

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:30 PM

Used Cars, Tin Men, Glengarry, Glenross and Death of a Salesman are the most accurate portrayals of the variuos types of salespeople and their lives that I've seen.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Kim C
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:36 PM

I enjoyed Tin Men. Haven't seen it in a long while. My favorite part is when Danny DeVito ties Richard Dreyfus up and pelts him with eggs and tomatoes. :)

Also I love the car salesman in Fargo and the go-round about the clearcoat.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:56 PM

Glengarry is a great send up of the high hustle sales business-ok to rape the customer because once the deal's done you'll never see them again. This reflects the general public's sstereotype of the slick salesman. I don't think I could survive doing that, or the mega-rejection modes, like door-to-door or telephone sales. But an on-going sales relationship with a client whom you trust, and who trusts you, is very enjoyable. However, even at that, having a relationship with a friendly,"A" account customer is somewhat like dating the girl that everybody else wants to sleep with....you got to stay on your toes all the time.

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 03:26 PM

One year, just before Christmas, my radio advertising sales manager lit a fire under us to get on the phone and sell some cheapo holiday greetings spots to our clients. This was long before anyone had ever heard the term "telemarketing."

I'd just had surgery so was grounded to the office for a couple of weeks anyway, so I went like a house on fire and racked up several thousands in those little couple hundred dollar packages. He was so impressed, he was going to create a strictly phone sales position for me, but I quit right after that, for other reasons.

Sure stood me in good stead, though. Years later when I contracted at an arts center, they needed to get some response from a mailer they'd sent out asking members for $100 donations. I said why don't you let me call a few. They were horrified at first, treating these high-rollers with kid gloves, never dreaming of being so gauche as to call and outright ask for money.

Fianlly, they let me have a list of ones they thought wouldn't go completely bonkers, I called, said have you received our request and may I put you down for $100. By the end of the day, I'd brought in about 20 of those, the most they'd ever seen in a day and they were just astounded. It was stupid, simple easy for me, but fun to dazzle 'em! **BG**

Loved your story Steve. It always amazes me when sales people don't go for the kill.

Spaw, hard to imagine anyone being that rigid about a script! Sheesh!

Oh, Rickee...my hair needs a good shampooing and I'll bet with those instrument-sensitive fingers of yours, you'd give a much beter massage than Warren ever dreamed of! **BG**

kat

Subject: RE: My Sales Seminar Massacree
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 03:52 PM

OK, so I'm no Warren beatty. But I could give NED BEATTY a run for his money! ("squeal like a pigggg!!")

Not a whole lot of story in the "Music Store owner for a day", Steve. My security-conscious ex partner decided I'd LOVE to own my own business and encouraged me to:

Lease a store.

Get a business license.

Build shelves and make a sign ("Acoustic Workshop")

Order inventory from music suppliers.

Announce a "Grand Opening" date.

After two days and nights of worry and no sleep I decided:

Shopkeepers have to get up at 7am.

They have to be there EVERYDAY!

They have to know how to keep books.

They have to really BELIEVE in what they're doing (I didn't)

so:

On the night before opening day, I got every Bluegrass musician I knew together and we had a LOUD jam until 2 am. Several other tenants in the building complained mightily to the landlord. He told me "there'd be no more of that kind of thing". I told him "There sure would"! He cancelled my lease the next day. I went home and got yelled at by Nancy....but oh boy did I sleep well afterward.

"Glengarry glen Ross and Tin men (and Fargo) are some of my favourite American films ever. Maybe I secretly WANT to be a salesman! Just call me "Biff".

Rick