BS: American bashing

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: gnu
Date: 14 May 01 - 05:12 PM

Gee. I wasn't filling in my score card, but I'd say Real Flamerican is waaaaaay behind on points. If he doesn't have a knockout in the late rounds, I'd say he won't even get a rematch. And a knockout is a long shot for a punch drunk fighter.

God Bless America... but not Real Flamerican.

realcanadiangnu

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:35 PM

Game's over. Everybody loses. Now go out and have a beer.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:05 PM

One quick final word for today art: THE BOMB. You are the one with his head in the wrong place. As Robin Williams would say, "Thank you for playing."

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:05 PM

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:02 PM

If pointing out horribly flawed logic in rather graphic (but accurate) terms qualifies as abuse, then you must enjoy being abused since you are sticking around. Now, since you have again failed to produce anything factual or worthwhile, it is time for me to take my leave for today. You have twenty four hours to say something smart.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:00 PM

It is important to note that, if the US "pretty much single handedly" won the war in the Pacific Theater, it was largely because the Commonwealth forces from the region had been committed to the African Theater long before the Japanese entered the war. The Allies agreed that it would be more practical for US naval and ground forces to assume responsibility for the island clearance operations, since we had the assets in place or could move them there more rapidly, and for British forces to concentrate on South Asia, primarily Burma. Anyone who thinks that any one of the WW2 allies could have won, or did win, that war alone or without the active participation of all of the others clearly has his head in rectal defilade.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:57 PM

Alternatively, perhaps you just enjoy abusing people.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:51 PM

You can't find any logic because you seem determined to read them out of context. I doubt that you have even bothered to read this entire thread and hence would grasp the significane of those statements? Sadly typical of many others here. Why don't you obtain a dictionary and look up the meaning of the "insults" that I used in reference to Karen. One could easily make a case for their accuracy given the logic that she has tried to use. I think your time is up unless you can actually muster an intelligent comment.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:43 PM

"Right, I never give a moron the last word. I said "pretty much single handedly," not "single handedly." There is a difference sweetheart. And if you were operating with a rational thought process you would know that it is not an insult to others to point out the accomplishment of one's own nation. I am glad that you are through with this thread because you obviously are incapable of making a substantive contribution to it."

--GUEST, Real American

Other than 'I said "pretty much single handedly," not "single handedly."' And "it is not an insult to others to point out the accomplishment of one's own nation", which really fall more into the category of a correction and an opinion, I can't find any logic or facts in this post. Only insults and condescention.

It seems to me that you could have made those two points quite effectively without the insults and condescention, which leads me to restate my assertion that your behavior has been ill-mannered and boorish.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:33 PM

Using logic and facts evidently qualifies as boorish behavior in your universe. Are you sure that you aren't karen in disguise?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:19 PM

What I find myself wondering, though, is if the fact that the U.S. has made such a significant contribution to the world gives us the right to behave in a way that is ill-mannered and boorish, as our GUEST, Real American is doing, and to do it with impunity.

Even when responding to negative stereotypes about Americans, it seems to me that we perpetuate those stereotypes rather than dispell them when we react in that way. I'm sure there is a diplomatic way to conduct a disagreement such as this one. It just takes a little more effort.

Perhaps it's that sort of behavior that gives Americans a bad name.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real american
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:08 PM

Right, I never give a moron the last word. I said "pretty much single handedly," not "single handedly." There is a difference sweetheart. And if you were operating with a rational thought process you would know that it is not an insult to others to point out the accomplishment of one's own nation. I am glad that you are through with this thread because you obviously are incapable of making a substantive contribution to it.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:03 PM

Well, I wasn't going to write back but, what the hell?, you pissed me off so here goes: first of all, my above-mentioned statement was to point out that the U.S. was not alone in the Pacific so the "single-handed" idea of yours was not valid. Second of all, if you've read my comments you'll find NOT once have I been negative to the U.S. but merely to individuals who happen to insult other nations while waving their own patriotic banners.
Now, I KNOW you are not about to let me have the last word but this thread is over as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:52 PM

John,

Thank you. It would be nice if a lot of people would show their gratitude by NOT trying to perpetuate negative stereotypes about Americans. It only fuels the self-loathing of people like Karen.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: John J
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:47 PM

Dear Real American, I'm sure we're all very gratfull for the help given by America when it's been requested. John J (English)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:45 PM

So, it is "unAmerican" to use facts to combat bullshit. You are the type who would sit there nodding like an idiot while people around you repeat nonsense stereotypes about your country.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:40 PM

Dear UNReal American, I feel sorry for you. After reading what you've written, you make ME want to bash Americans and I'M American!

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:26 PM

The Kiwis and Aussies made some contributions, but i doubt that you can name a single major battle in the Pacific that wasn't won by Americans. And you pretty much make my point for me when you mention the bomb. I will buy into the allied victory as a equal effort, but only if you follow the famous line about some animals being more equal than others.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:20 PM

The bottom line is, Hitler was trying to fight a two front war, and it proved to be his undoing. The allies kicked his ass, and it was a JOINT effort. The Russians were the first to enter Berlin because, according to Geberal Patton, he and his 3rd army were held back. Patton was a fighting S.O.B and a glory hound, but, no matter what, none of the allies alone could have done the job. As the invincible knight at the bridge said in Monty Python and the holy grail, "Alright, we'll call it a draw." Cant we just call it a draw? this sniping at good friends bugs me.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:19 PM

Dear Real American, I'm pretty sure my dad stood elbow to elbow with the good folks from Australia and New Zealand when he fought in the South Pacific. I don't think he believes the U.S. won it "single-handedly". What ended the war in the Pacific was the bomb, no question, and yes, it was dropped by Americans.
Also, since you've mentioned the "you'd be speaking German if not for Americans" twice, did you know Americans almost voted German as the official language back when we were setting up our nation? Not your point, I know, but an interesting tid-bit.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:12 PM

Larry,

It is nice to finally deal with someone operating from an informed perspective. I am familiar with A.B.'s book. However, he is rather conservative in terms of calculating the effects of American aid. In fact, one historian (who I can't remember) notes that so much American artillery ammunition was provided for the Russians that in some battles (even in Stalingrad I believe) they had the luxury of targeting individual German soldiers. Also, the role of Russian air power is neglected by many. Most are unaware that the U.S. supported bases for Russian pilots as well as providing planes, equipment, etc., which did in fact hold up under the Russian winter.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 01 - 02:07 PM

Hi Alex... I agree that one can't judge too harshly in hindsight, however, when one looks at the way some French company's and the French banking industry acted after occupation and before the nazificaiton of French law, you undertand the saying that if everyone who was in the French undergraound after the war was in the French undergraound during the war, the Nazi's would not have been able to stay in France. But Russia does have vast land mass and wether on it's side, as well as fear of state terror, but also real nationalist fervor in resisting the nazis. - Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 14 May 01 - 01:58 PM

InOBU, that's a little too facile. Unlike the French and the Poles, the Russians weren't overwhelmed and inundated from stem to stern by the German army. What was France (or Poland) to do, once their entire territory was overrun by Panzers?

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 14 May 01 - 01:50 PM

Hi Real American:
If you haven't read it, Stalingrad, by Anthony Beevor is a tremendous book. I think you will really enjoy it, if you haven't read it. However, it does show that American aid to the Soviet Union was not overly helpful and did not really turn the tide. We just did not make equiptment for the harsh conditions in Russia and thank God, neither did the Germans. In fact, the great effort of the US, would have been really much harder if the eastern front was not held and collapsing from the extrodinary efforts of the Soviet Red Army. Now, one may argue that without Stalinist purges and such, the Red Army could have been putting more into fighting the Germans, however, on the other hand, it is hard to second guess history, the reality, is unlike France and Poland and so many others, Russians did not capitulate.
all the best
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Real American
Date: 14 May 01 - 01:14 PM

I haven't been watching too many hollywood movies. Evidently, I have actually been reading too much history to be able to rationally converse with many of you. The simple fact is that Americans turned the tide of World War One and World War Two in Europe. To expand the point that I zinged Boab with, the Russians did so well against the Germans because Americans were sending them massive amounts of aid as well. You folks can spin it any way you want, but the fact is that if wasn't for us crappy Americans a lot of you would be speaking German. And many of you seem to conveniently forget that we pretty much single handedly won the war in the Pacific. If it wasn;t for us, there would probably be a lot of Brit POWS dying of old age in Japanese prison camps in Malaysia today. So, if you want to blindly follow the fashionable trend of criticizing Americans, go ahead. If you keep repeating the mantra long enough, you might be able to actually convince yourself that your not full of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Boab
Date: 13 May 01 - 05:31 AM

I don't "bash Americans"---I bash back at miscreants who have a bash at me or mine. I look forward to a visit from a Real Real American before June ends---my much liked brother-in-law Tim, who can tell harrowing tales direct from the Vietnam quagmire. Perhaps the fact that he isn't a hard-right Republican makes him a highly acceptable member of the human race. I am "cheesed" by this wrangle---I will ignore any further sniping from the direction of the White House. Boab

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 01 - 07:12 PM

WOBH Means Whale Oil Beef Hooked. Say it out loud. It is a statement of resignation in Newfoundland.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Shields Folk
Date: 12 May 01 - 06:53 PM

You've just come in from the pub, haven't you?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 01 - 06:50 PM

Any talk about cultural tendencies has to be oversimplified, and I'm sure there are Americans who go in for understatement, just as there are English people who go over the top.

But I think there is some truth in what I said there - and it wasn't meant to be critical of the difference, the reverse in fact. The important thing is to spot the clues which tell you when someone is understating, and when they are overstating, because that way we can avoid putting in the wrong compensation and getting it hopelessly wrong. A bit like adjusting the sights on a rifle.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Shields Folk
Date: 12 May 01 - 05:11 PM

Bad gene? English? Understatement? Monty Python? Marmite? OOH ER MISSUS

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 01 - 04:42 PM

What does WOBH stand for?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 12 May 01 - 03:03 PM

Where I live, New England, we also have a habit of understating. Must have been a bad gene that we inherited from the English ancestors! WOBH

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 May 01 - 12:51 AM

Alex, you asked, I replied. Politely and concisely, much as is your wont.

Peg, I appreciate your endorsement, and I have always admired your forthrightness and courage in the face of adversity. But trust me, you wouldn't like my grumpiness in the mornings .................*G*

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:05 PM

McGrath, continuing along those lines of 'differentness' I once read that the English have the curious (to USA) habit of saying things like, 'I have been given a truly dreadful haircut' and then turning around and saying, 'There's been a spot of trouble- it seems the train derailed'.

Literal-minded people like me are probably the most likely to misunderstand- and I agree that that is my problem, not yours. However, as in the example you gave above, there will always be the potential for harm and mischief.

Education, education, education... seems like everything always comes down to education. In 'foreign' countries, we carry phrasebooks and dictionaries and books with helpful hints. I suspect we take much less care in English-speaking countries, tending to assume that there will be no difficulty in negotiating one's way. Ironically, because of the similarity of language, there is probably greater danger of offending our hosts in this case than we do in countries with different languages where, on both sides, more slack is cut.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Peg
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:45 PM

Murray Macleod I think I love you.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:31 PM

Are we really like that Mac? Look at my post, th second one right up there at the top. Everyplace has ways and things about it that are a product of it's history and indeed, our history is quite short by all comparisons. Perhaps we as a country are guilty of overstatement but we have little history and therefore have oft gotten by on bravado. I think as a nation we may be getting passed that. Oh, it's still there, but not nearly strong as it used to be.

It's hard to make generalizations about any country or culture but the US is especially tough because of the numbers who have come here from so many places in so short a time and settled over a broad land.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:21 PM

I can't somehow see how an invasion of Europe could have been launched across the Atlantic without a launching pad this side. I imagine if there'd been a surrender or whatever in 1940, and the offshore islands had been occupied by the Germans, it would probably have come down to Atomic Bombs on Berlin, and likely enough New York and a lot of other places. Unless the Russians managed to fight their way through in time.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:15 PM

Gosh, Murray, feeling particularly nasty today, or are you seriously stupid enough to think I don't know what those words mean? Take a chill pill, dude. Don't be one of those nasty people you've met in cyberspace.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:08 PM

Real American expresses a continuing mythology that we (the US) won The War. D-Day would've turned out a lot differently (and may not have happened at all) had the Russians not taken on the brunt of the German army, giving as well as receiving staggering losses, and defeating them at Stalingrad. Other countries made enormous contributions ... the Battle of Britain comes to mind. Real American has probably seen too many Hollywood war movies.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:52 PM

You are right Larry, and I need to go back to New York.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: InOBU
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:47 PM

Hi Joe... The reason you never met Irish reds, is found in the statement you never left the country. I completely endorce the idea that Americans should travel, quietly, though not with a big stick, but with open eyes. If you found yourself in say, Belfast, a few years ago, facing NATO guns, you'd meet lots of Irish reds. Nice cuddly Irish reds who you'd really like.
As to my Celtic brother Murray... the good luck or good sense you show is that you came to New York, not only a bastion of liberality in the states... but... welll... (here we go spaw...) THE HOME OF SORCHA DORCHA!
THE HARDEST WORKING CLETIC BAND!!!
AS SEEN ON SORCHADORCHA.COM!
BRINGING THE BEST OF RED IRISH MUSIC TO A STAGE NEAR YOU!!!
The plug-o-matic strikes again!)

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:44 PM

See what I mean? Seriously, I think the American hypersensitivity is in fact an indication that they really are not as arrogant as they sometimes come across as.

I think it's a matter of style - the English, and to a lesser but real extent their neighbours in the offshore islands have a tradition of understatement - "I'm not feeling too great today" means "I feel like I'm at death's door", "I didn't do too badly" means "I think I was brilliant". Being used to it, people adjust their understanding.

My impression is that Americans tend to go the other way, and overstate things - and presumably adjust their understanding to take account of that.

The room for misunderstanding here is that if you apply the adjustment up or down to people from the other culture, you get a grossly distorted understanding. Americans are likely to come across as arrogant, the English as grovellingly (and clearly dishonestly) self-deprecating.

There was the classic case in the Korean War which was reported recently, where the English commander of the Gloucesters under attack said that things were "a little sticky", meaning they were desperate, and that support was urgently needed - and the Americans assumed he meant that things were reasonably satisfactory, and that support was not urgently needed. And the Gloucesters were cut to pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Jande
Date: 11 May 01 - 08:37 PM

Kendell...

Jo said at the beginning of this thread:

"OK not really American bashing, but I thought that'd get the attention of all the US cats. " [italics mine]

An unfortunate title for a thread, IMHO.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: kendall
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:56 PM

What is the point in all this sniping?

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:21 PM

hello hit the wrong button before.I just wanted to comment on a few of the other posts as well. Larry the only Irish reds I have heard of before were beers. All the true Irish I know even the non catholic ones proudly refer to the color green. I know what you mean by working class poor there is much of it here in the states. I would have to say though why those who hate communisn do so is because it was also accompanied by a dictatorship in there country which will always happen because some will always strive to be of the elitist group. Murray Macleod Are you originally from the Isles or are you a highlander? I Have lived here in the USA all my life and have never traveled overseas. I have to tell you though where I live is pretty quiet to when I lived in Florida but I can assure you in my experience there are rude people everywhere and if you look or happen to be unfortunate enough you will eventually meet them no matter what their social rank.I work with a few guys who seem to get there kicks off of making other people miserable and they are blue collar just as I am Well thats enough for now just remember look at the person for whom they are and not what they are

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Jande
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:19 PM

Guest,Joe... "I have also noticed shrinks have more problems then the people they are suppose to help so why would I want to pay someone to solve my problems when they can't fix their own."

Ah, you see... there's the rub...

The shrink's joob is to NOT solve your problems but to remind you that it is human to err, that we are all f*cked up together so have a little compassion, and be nice/good to ourselves, first.

Once we get that lot out of the way (can take two to ten years, btw) we can then start seeing ways to solve our own problems creatively.

I'd rather have a shrink that's "been there" anyday to those weird jerks that act more like missionaries and {{{shudder}}} social workers.

If anyone wants the number of a bona fide "been there and back again" counsellor who does phone work (and who doesn't charge you an arm, a leg, and your firstbornmale child), PM me and I'll give it to you. This guy is amazing! (I've known him for over 15 years)

Anyway to get back on topic. I moved here to the US of A in August of last year. I'm ashamed to say that I didn't realise how prejudiced I was by the media depictions of Americans. I hurt someone very close to me by expressing what I saw as "the world's view of Americans".

Having lived here for a number of months now, I can honestly say that the folks I've met here in the states are simply that --folks. The same as anyone anywhere. They have prejudices like every other nationality. But given a chance they are as human, humane, compassionate and sensitive as any other nationality, too.

I've learned my lesson, I hope. Now I tend to feel embarrased whenever I read or hear something that lumps all the american people together, especially if my sweet, sensitive (american)partner is present to hear it.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:15 PM

It's better to travel out of London a bit to stay. I've just eaten in the restaurant of a new hotel which was offering rooms for the night at £45. I don't know what they're like, but probably, from the look of the place, standard ensuite double rooms with TV, hot drinks etc. Not characterful, but the food is definitely good. There's lots of this sort of thing, catering for business during the week, but cheaper at weekends. This one is part of a cluster about ten minutes from a station which is 45 minutes from the centre of London. It's not a great location - the bridge view isn't a patch on San Francisco's - but it shows you can do things cheaper. And out further there's bed and breakfast places, which are characterful, and even cheaper, and you get to know the people.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:45 PM

"Social" , " rank". Check your dictionary Alex. Both words are in there.

Perhaps I should have added that the only assholes I have encountered in this country have been in cyberspace.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: American bashing
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:39 PM

Hello well about the whole clerk thing ok it might have been a bad reference in the way I put it but You got my point on how they keep bothering you til you want to buy something sort of like a missionary until you want to speak with God. Of course you don't need them to do so. I have also noticed shrinks have more problems then the people they are suppose to help so why would I want to pay someone to solve my problems when they can't fix their own.See how someone who is a little anal retentive can turn a simple joke into a whole spew of words Hahaha