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Guitars and Bridge Pins
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Subject: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Justa Picker Date: 24 Aug 01 - 04:40 PM I'd really like to get some comments and opinions going on this subject. I've been researching fossilized ivory pins for a while. Before I go to the considerable expense of getting them for all my guitars, I'd like to know - aside from all the hype - if they really do make a signifcant and noticeable difference to the overall tone of a guitar? I've tried ebony pins (hated them) and currently use slotted Martin plastic "red-eyes" which I like the look of and the guitars I have sound fine with them. Are fossilized ivory pins worth the money? And if so, is the overall tone really improved that much, to justify dropping $120.00 per set? (Thanks in advance for the responses.) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Clinton Hammond Date: 24 Aug 01 - 05:15 PM Nuts and saddles maybe, but I have a hard time imagining that the tonal differences between regular pins and fossilized ivory would be noticeable to anything but the most sensitive of scientific equipment... And at 120 buck for 6 little pins??? I can think of much better places to spend that scratch.... Just my opinion... |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: John Hardly Date: 24 Aug 01 - 06:15 PM Almost everyone I've heard on the subject agrees with CH. Hard to believe it could influence the sound by much. On the other hand, You didn't like the ebony. Was that because you thought they sounded differently? By the way, fossilized ivory LOOKS very cool. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: GUEST,Steve N. Date: 24 Aug 01 - 06:49 PM Twenty-five years ago someone gave me a set of carved ivory pins, which I used on my D-28. They certainly are more beautiful than any others. When my luthier Larry Brown built me a new bridge, the guitar came back with standard plastic pins. He didn't like my ancient ivory pins, but I think his opinion was "aesthetic" (they don't "belong" on a mid-40s guitar) rather than "acoustic". I played with the plastic pins for a few months, re-installed my pretty ivory ones, and never noticed any difference in sound either way. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Justa Picker Date: 24 Aug 01 - 07:13 PM John, In answer to your question I didn't like the ebony ones because I felt they mellowed the sound (mind you they looked good on my Collings.)But I like my axes as cutting and bright sounding as possible. If I want mellow, I'll use my palm and dampen the lower strings. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: catspaw49 Date: 24 Aug 01 - 08:18 PM (Bright? Use brass.) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 24 Aug 01 - 08:36 PM The pins can make a difference because they do transmit vibrations to the body. I have spoken to a number of people who, like spaw, find that brass pins give a brighter sound. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Justa Picker Date: 24 Aug 01 - 08:37 PM Well.....maybe not that bright, 'Spaw :-) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: John Hardly Date: 24 Aug 01 - 10:02 PM Well, you probably answered your own question. If you see a discernable difference between ebony and plastic then you might assume you could tell the difference with an even harder material. If you don't want to spend that much you might try the experiment I did and order some bone pins from Elderly's. They're not expensive and I'll bet they would do a decent approximation of ivory.
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: bigchuck Date: 25 Aug 01 - 08:48 AM There's been a lot of discussion of this issue on the flatpick list (interminable, actually). I replaced the ebony pins on my Taylor with bone ones and did hear a rather noticeable difference in sustain and punch. Both bone and FWI pins will tend to sharpen a guitar's sound, but not always in a good manner. I suspect rosewood boxes might benefit more than mahogany or maple from such a change, being made a bit less "muddy". I also think that dreads are better candidates than smaller bodied guitars. My 0-18 got rather harsh sounding with the bone pins when I tried them out. YMMV of course. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Willie-O Date: 25 Aug 01 - 09:59 AM Here's to pinless bridges! OK, they pull up every few years...but I've always found pins to be a pain in the ass. Never tried different types. Is there any particular material for them that, tonal qualities aside, stays in the hole better? I spose a little krazy glue would do it... |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Justa Picker Date: 26 Aug 01 - 02:17 PM (refresh) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Murray MacLeod Date: 26 Aug 01 - 02:29 PM Fossilised ivory pins are not going to make a huge difference to the sound of a factory Martin. However if you invest in a truly hand-built instrument, then you WILL notice an immediate and profound difference in tone according to the pin material, and experimenting with different pins can indeed be a way to achieving your desired sound. Murray
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Justa Picker Date: 26 Aug 01 - 02:39 PM Murray, When you say "factory" Martin, are you referring to ones built within say, the last 10 or 20 years?...or all Martins regardless of when they were built? Mine range in age from 22 years to 54 years old. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: John Hardly Date: 26 Aug 01 - 04:05 PM More to the point. Murray, Why would a hand made instrument proportionately see any more improvement (Difference) than a factory guitar? The parts of a guitar that come into play are relatively the same. I was going to raise the point that some pins actually do fasten down the string in a little different way. For instance, I was up at Elderly yesterday and a friend and I noticed that the string slot in front of the hole is considerably pronounced in the Gibsons I saw, whereas, the Martins, Collings, Bourgeouis, Larrivee's etc are essentially a string hole. the pin itself MUST be grooved in the one case, not so much in the other. One might guess that with increasing age in the guitar (with the pin holes slowly but surely increasing in size), the hardness of the pin might matter less, as it does less "pinching" and more just holding in place. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 26 Aug 01 - 05:52 PM This makes sense, I guess, 'cause the different materials are of varying hardness, and will be partial to different frequencies... Harder the Higher, Softer the Mellower, and so on. However, I think this is way over my head, and I've never considered it before... My problem is chiefly this... the pegs vibrate at the frequency of the little stretch of string between the saddle and the pins. this length does not vary very much, mostly a value of string 'TENSION' change. As with a H-Dulcimer, the string on the other side of the bridge, vibrates at it's own frequency, though it was not struck. See what I mean? I just don't understand how it matters...ttr |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Bert Date: 26 Aug 01 - 06:09 PM I really can't believe that the pin material makes THAT much difference. Any pin that fits properly and does it's job should be OK. I could see that, maybe, a badly fitting pin or a soft pin that allows the string to move might be a bad thing but the pin's job is to stop the string from slipping out of it's groove and if it does that properly then there should be no noticable difference between materials. The vibration should be transmitted mainly through the string resting on the saddle with a minor amount transmitted through the ball where it is seated on the underside of the bridge. Regarding brass pins sounding brighter, I would suspect that brass, being a harder material, might make it easier to ensure that the string is fitted correctly because it would be less prone to binding on the string and stopping the end from being seated correctly. In that respect the harder the the material the better. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Kaleea Date: 26 Aug 01 - 11:32 PM My old 1964 Gibson J-45 came to me with plastic pins. With the bridge being the old rosewood adjustable, it eats up much of the vibrations, therefore making a more "mellow" sound. Recently when I had fretwork done, some of the old pins cracked & broke off in the holes. At the request of a friend who is a guitar repairman, I tried brass, and bone & ebony pins. We did not notice enough of a difference to make me come up off the big bucks. I replaced the original pins with plastic ones from Gibson. You just have to try them & you make the decision based on what sounds good to you. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: mooman Date: 27 Aug 01 - 06:28 AM I think I agree with Bert on this one. In my experience the nut and saddle materials are far more important in overall tonal quality that the pin material. There are very many fine sounding guitars (cf. Willie-O's and my Flambeau/Lowdens) that have pinless bridges! In my repair box I have many dozens of sets of bridges pins in many different materials: bone, ebony, rosewood, plastic, with and without inlays. I have never however felt the urge to splash out the equivalent of 120 dollars on a set of fossilized ivory pins however beautiful they may be! Unless the customer has a specific requirement I usually install what 1) provides a snug but not tight fit and 2) what seems aesthetically most pleasing in relation to the overall characteristics of the guitar. I usually avoid using cheapo plastic pins in repairs although some fearfully expensive guitars seem to come supplied with them as original equipment which seems excessively mean on the part of the manufacturers/luthiers in my humble opinion! Best regards, mooman |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: GUEST,Guest Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:40 AM Modification and experimentation with bridge pins is ill advised and deemed as a desperate, inexperienced user's approach to achieving proper tone. Here's the plain-English story. The vibrations collected and transmitted through the saddle, bridge and wood top of your guitar (amplified by the back and sides (body) give you your tone. Tampering with bridge pin material is creating a scenario where you are introducing increased conflicting, out-of-sync vibrations into the bridge from a point other than the saddle and therefore, interferring with the guitar's natural inherent tonal characteristics. The brighter sound you think you may be hearing is not necessarly an improvement, but rather an out-of-sync series of vibrations being introduced (transmitted) into the guitar body creating the illusion that you have made an enhancement, when in reality, what you've really achieved is you've compromised the acoustical balance and harmonics of your instrument. Ask yourself... is this really the direction I want to go in, especially with a higher-end guitar? |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Sep 06 - 01:24 AM I used to use brass for quite a while, but Steve Clark, the luthier put me onto beechwood ones, and they are the best i have ever tried. I have tried ivory - which Rob Armstrong put on one of my guitars, and plastic of course. The beechwood ones are only about five quid, but they have improved every guitar that I have put them on. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 Sep 06 - 03:32 AM If Rob Armstrong used ivory, that is quite a recomendation. Brass make an immediately observable difference. I have not tried beechwood but will now seek some out. Ebony is bright but does not jangle like brass. Quite a few people here in Kent are trying EZ-Pegs, which are brass but are also drilled so that the ball end sits behind, not in front of, the pin. I do not find them as enlivening as the cheapo JHS brass ones. However, have you all made sure that your inner bridge plates are in good order? If the ball ends are sitting on a pile of squashed matchwood you will be losing the benefit of a hard contact point (and one of these years the ball end will pull right through). You can, if your inner bridge plate is not too chewed, get little brass plates with holes for the pins and grooves for the strings, to prevent further damage and to brovide a hard bearing surface. It takes a bit of rummaging on the internet to find them though. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: The Vulgar Boatman Date: 07 Sep 06 - 03:37 AM Have a look at TUSQ pins - designed to imitate both the hardness and density of ivory. Try here www.musiciansfriend.com or Google for a couple of well-written technical articles. I tried them more out of curiosity than anything on my 00028, and yes, they did make a difference, albeit small. I wouldn't expect anything really radical, but there is better sustain in the top end and a slightly brighter tone overall. The guitar sounds better balanced than with the factory pins, though again, this is very subjective: fifty-odd year old hearing vs. forty years playing... As they were only around £16 a set, I would say they're worth the experiment. Chris |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Murray MacLeod Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:34 AM From: GUEST,Guest - PM Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:40 AM ...."Here's the plain-English story".... ROFLMAO Plain English ??? |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Grab Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:52 AM The brighter sound you think you may be hearing is not necessarly an improvement The "ideal" tone of guitar is 100% subjective, so everyone has their own idea about what that sounds like. Even the luthier who created your guitar might have had a different idea of the "ideal" tone. What sounds perfect to you might even be regarded as a failure by him - if he was aiming for a fingerpicking guitar tone and came up with a flatpicking tone instead, for example. Bridge pins won't make a huge difference, but like strings they can fine-tune the characteristics of what you already have. Ask yourself... is this really the direction I want to go in, especially with a higher-end guitar? Well since it's 100% reversable, the answer is going to be "hell yes". Why would you think it wasn't? Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Shiplap Structure3 Date: 07 Sep 06 - 05:46 AM Why not just get a Lowden End of story |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Sep 06 - 06:08 AM Rarely have I read such complete tripe disguised as informed fact as that posted by the Guest above. I would copy parts of it but the entire thing is bullshit! So where did you read that crappola or did you make it up all by yourself? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Mooh Date: 07 Sep 06 - 07:48 AM Generally I like wood. The ebony pins on most of my guitars look and feel good, though on one they're pretty chewed up after a zillion string changes but they work as good as new anyway. I personally think the pins should be in good enough shape to do their job and that material is pretty subjective. I DO hear a brightening with brass on some guitars and agree that its not necessarily desirable, but beauty is in the ears (and mind) of the beholder, don't you think? Plastic on a good guitar is kinda like naugahide seats in a Rolls, and ivory pins on a cheap plywood guit-box is a bit like a white wedding for a two bit whore. Either way the vibe is distorted. Vibe that is. Tone, well...prove it to yourself and be happy. Some of the wood choices are nice options, but much like the options I face when staring into my underwear drawer every morning (I did say EVERY morning). So much sound depends more on technique, strings, atmosphere, inspiration and the rest of the guitar's construction that pins are a very minor consideration. However, as much thought is put into every aspect of the guitar's construction by builders through the ages that it's kinda silly to go cheap on the pins on a good axe, and on a lesser axe pins might just be a minor route to improvement, but nut, saddle, strings, set-up, etc come first. Let's debate the relative merits of types of bone next, okay? Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Sep 06 - 08:55 AM the way Rob Armstrong put it to me was, of course ivory's the best. It's organic you see, like the wood, it vibrates just like the wood! |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: redsnapper Date: 07 Sep 06 - 09:33 AM No, they will not make a noticeable difference in sound. RS (luthier) |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Big Mick Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:01 AM Thanks, Mooh. Now that was a straight ahead, informed post. We can always count on you for well thought information. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: GUEST,Clueless rich twat Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:03 AM I only use solid platinum bridge pins. In fact any choice of my most priceless antique luthier guitars, or tone, is completely irrelevent.. ..as long as I can be seen to be using better accessories than anyone else. I also had all my ebony fingerboards stripped out and replaced with extremely expensive compressed fossilised ancient treewood. The famously obscure and secretive craftsman who patented this high cost upgrade, calls this rare fingerboard material Compressed Old Ancient Luthierite.. I'm sure it does improve the tone impressively, but a black residue rubs off on my fingers and hand made silk clothes.. so I dont actually play any of my guitars.. I'm happily content to look at, contemplate, and admire them; and calculate their increasing investment value. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: GUEST,DonMeixner Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:16 AM Spaw, Are you sure we aren't related? (Clueless is probably righter than most in this case.) I have Ebony, Plastic and Brass pins in my guitars. I have switched them around over the years and with the exception of the Brass which give a slightly brighter tone to the sound I hear no difference. I think fit is more important than material. Tight fit, good sound, not so tight, not so good. That being said my Martin 0-16 will hold the strings without the pins and it sounds fine. Also, when people change around pins it is usually when they change the strings. Since we usually change dead strings for new ones the experiment is screwed at the get go in most cases. When I win the lotto I'll buy a case of Elixers and a box each of Brass, Plastic, Mastadon, Ivory, and Ebony and see where the truth lies. Until then thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Don |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: HiHo_Silver Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:21 AM For what it is worth: I have worked on many stringed instruments over the years ( many guitars). I would be highly impressed with any human who had hearing sensitive enough to hear any difference in an instrument by installing different types of bridge pins . Would go so far as to suggest that if is mainly a state of mind rather than hearing. Complete installations of top nut, bridge sadddle and pins do however make a difference but can be better or worse depending on the sound you prefer. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: redsnapper Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:26 PM Completely agree HiHo! I think Clueless RT's post above sums it up nicely. In fact, if my two current guitars used crafted dug-up compressed mastodon's toenail bridge pins (they both have tailpieces) the pins would be worth much more than the guitars themselves (which are used every day)! RS |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Grab Date: 07 Sep 06 - 12:44 PM Since my main guitar is a Lowden and hence is a pin-free zone, I can only speak for my old beater guitar. Ebony pins made a noticeable (although small) difference to the sound. Having said that, they were also a better fit in the holes too. As for the gold-plated bling versions, Clueless is definitely on the money. :-) Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: dick greenhaus Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:09 PM Inasmuch as properly-fitted pins don't vibrate, I'd suspect that any difference in tone comes from increased (or decreased) mass at the bridge. Like using a clothespin to mute a fiddle. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: s&r Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:36 PM Sounds sense Dick Stu |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: number 6 Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:42 PM Dick .... What is more effective in muting a fiddle? A wood or plastic clothespin? sIx |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 07 Sep 06 - 04:43 PM The first time a big truck drives across the bridge, an ivory bridge pin will probably snap. Bridge pins should be made of stainless steel. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: dick greenhaus Date: 07 Sep 06 - 05:51 PM Number 6- The more mass, the more muting. Works on banjos, too. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: GUEST,Guest Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:58 PM catspaw49, You're probably right. Stick with your present approach since it works for you. Fundamentals of vibrations, how they're transfered through an instrument and produce sound CAN be an awfully confusing and difficult concept for some to grasp. Thank you, for illustrating that in your reply. The "magical" sound coming out of that dark, mysterious hole is a matter of physics (what makes things work). What you consider as "tripe" is understood by others as a viable, "scientific" concept that may be worth pondering. Something more than just gut-feelings. Enjoy your bridge pins. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: number 6 Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:08 PM I dunno ... sometimes I think we get all too worked up over the instrument ... after all it is the musician that makes them sing .. my nephew showed up at our doorstep a couple of years ago on his way to Halifax ... he is an accomplished guitarist in his own right .. he had an old beatup Alvarez .. he had a filed down golf tee holding in the 'B' string, that made me shrug when I first noticed it ... regardless when he played that guitar sung ever so sweetly. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Bert Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:26 PM The tone of a guitar is produced by the sound box and the length of string between the nut and the saddle. That dead bit of string between the bridge and the underside of the sound board doesn't really have anything to do with it. Anymore than that bit of string between the nut and the tuning machine. If you want more mass to change the sound just take a few heavy screws and screw them into the sound board. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: number 6 Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:52 PM Better still ... how about some lug nuts bolted into the sound board. sIx |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:44 AM if you want more mass to change the sound.. why not get a solid wood body.. ..ermmm.. then mount some pickups and electronic controls.. and.. errrmm.. |
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Subject: RE: Guitars and Bridge Pins From: Big Al Whittle Date: 08 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM Yes its funny at what point people say - okay this the guitar, this is the sound: maybe if I just tweak it here and there. Personally its always the amplified sound - because I know I'm going to start adding pedals and changing strings and changing amps, etc. That and the feel of the thing. Some people like you say focus on the sound before its plugged in - they focus on construction , etc. Some people think I'm crazy for putting the electronics before the type of wood. i wouldn't like to say who is right. possibly there is no right, we just do what seems right for us. |
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