tune Req: Dives and Lazarus (variants)

Subject: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,Simon
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:47 PM

Apologies if I'm dim, but...

Loads of references are made here and in various books, to tunes being "varients of Dives and Lazarus."

Some works mention its ubiquity.

I've listened to the DT midi file, and it doesn't sound like anything I know.

Where am I going wrong?

Any pointers to recorded material (net based if possible) would be appreciated.

Thank you

Simon

---

Related threads:

Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
Dives & Lazarus/Brigg fair etc

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,wbo
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:51 PM

Its original tile was "Gilderoy", see also an old thread here on "Star of the County Down". There are many more names for the tune, as you will see in the old thread.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM

You might like to look at these two earlier discussions:

Songs to Star of the County Down
Dives & Lazarus/Brigg fair etc

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:14 PM

There is a good recording of "Dives and Lazarus" by the young Tradition, which you can compare with versions of Gilderoy so see the similarity of the tunes.

My personal favourite 'stretching' of tunes is Greensleeves, from the version everyone knows to the morris "Green Sleeves and Yellow Lace" etc. In fact, a group called the Monkseaton Morris Men used to do a set of about 20 minutes which was all variations of Greensleeves: sung, English Country Dance, Morris, SOlo Jig and probably several others.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:30 PM

Oh, I guess you're talking about tunes. I thought you might be speaking of the Dives/Lazarus story from the Bible.

If you're interested, in the DT is a great song called, as I recall, The Rich Man and the Poor Man. I have known it for about forty-five years, and sing it regularly. I was surprised to find two verses in the DT which I hadn't known before, dealing with what each character does at his final destination.

I disremember whether the DT has the tune.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 04:58 PM

Look up "Divers and Lazarus," Sic! in the DT. It should be pointed out that there are hymn-biblical, white gospel and black gospel versions of the story, and several tunes are used for the latter categories which are not tracable to Gilderoy.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:27 PM

I'm trying (unsuccessfully) to remember where and when I heard Divers and Lazarus. I know that the voice was that of an an oldish, Southern man, and I think with banjo.

Depending on the scansion of the line, "Divers" was sometimes "Diverus". Or actually, the impression I had and have is that it would be "Diverus" and sometimes elided to "Divers" to fit the scansion.

The tune as I learned it was somewhat like but not identical to Star of the County Down.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,wbo
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM

When the tune "Lazarus" is mentioned the reference, whether explicity stated or not, is to the following prototype. I started to copy the verses, too, then noticed at the bottom that the verses given came not from the noter of the tune, but fromNotes and Queries. "Dives and Lazarus" in the DT (Child #56) is very similar

X:1
T:Lazarus
N:English County Songs, by Broadwood and Fuller Maitland, 1893
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C
K:Em
(G/F/)|E2E2 (ED) ((EF)|G2G2A2(GA)|BBBB(AG)E2|\
D3 (GF)|E2E2(ED) (EF)|G2G2A2(GA)|B2B2(AG)E2|\
F3(Bc)|d2B2B2(AG)|A2A2B2 (GA)|BBAG(AG)E2|\
D3 (GF)|E2E2 (ED) (EF)|G2G2A2(GA)|B3BAGE2|\
E3 (Bc)|d2B2B2(AG)|A2A2B2(GA)|BBAG(AG)E2|\
D3 (GF)|E2E2(ED) (EF)|G2G2A2(GA)|B3BAGE2|E3z|]

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:16 PM

June Tabor and the Oyster Band did a great version on "Freedom and Rain" (Ryko,1990).

Michael

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Big Tim
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 01:52 AM

Michael, I was just about to type that in! Yes a corker of a performance by JT and the OB.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 02:25 AM

I haven't tried to translate the abc yet, but-but-but---Star of the County Down is NOT Gilderoy, is it? Gilderoy is Little Beggarman/Red Haired Boy/Old Soldier With a Wooden Leg/et. al.......Isn't Star of the County Down a slow air, and Gilderoy/Little Beggarman a reel?

What am I missing, here?

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:13 AM

Sorcha, try playing Star of the County Down in 4/4 and then start to elaborate on it. It sounds more or less like a version of Gilderoy then.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:33 AM

Isn't Star of the County Down a slow air?

Only in America is it slow and in 3/4. In Ireland & England it's fast and in 4/4 (although the way I sing it's more like 2/4 - faster than a reel).

WassaiL! V

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 08:51 AM

All the joys of folk music are in this tune, the extraordinary variety of styles, tempos and modes of the tunes that are clearly all versionsof the same one, the huge range of different music that use it, from goodgoing fiddle tunes to the saddest lament, from drinking songs to bad man ballads. And the fact that, so geographically widespread has it become, the sun definitely never sets on it!

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 09:33 AM

Well I'll be damned. I never noticed that.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 10:25 AM

Vaughan Williams wrote an arrangement called "five variants of Dives and Lazarus".Its a greate piece,though I've not disentangled the 5 different tunes (to buisy getting transported by the music).If anyone has the ABC of any other variants I'd appreciate it if you could post them.

All the best PP

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM

In fact I was surprised when I first heard it in 4/4 ( sung by Van Morrison, I think)as I had first heard it on a BBC schools programme in 3/4.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,Walden
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM

The Online edition of the Rev. H. R. Bramley's 1871 book, CHRISTMAS CAROLS NEW AND OLD, has a good scan of the score:
http://www.ccel.org/b/bramley/carols/jpg/0089=84.htm

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: masato sakurai
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 07:42 PM

Also the tune to MURDER OF MARIA MARTIN.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Jim Krause
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 11:07 PM

Somewhere, and I don't remember where exactly, I ran accross another variant of the Guilderoy/Dives and Lazarus tune played as a reel called "Bonaparte Crossing the Rocky Mountains." Tons o' fun to play.
Jim

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 11:33 AM

I remember reading not too long ago that the 5 different parts of Vaughan William's Variations were simply different versions of Dives and Lazarus from different parts of the country. This is a great board you guys have here, it has all the information I came looking for! Thanks for the help.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: denise:^)
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 01:46 PM

We sang a song, back in my school choir days, called "Poor Man Lazrus," which was arranged by Jester Hairston--eveidently an arranger of some renown, who also provided Sidney Poitier's singing voice in "The Lilies of the Field.". It was attributed as an African-American spritual, and had the repeating line:

"Dip your finger in the water,
Come and cool my tongue,
'Cause I'm tormented in the flame."

It was set up as a call and response type song--

Poor man Lazrus, Sick and disabled,
Dip your finger in the water...etc.
He had to eat crumbs from the rich man's table,
Dip your finger in the water...etc.

Rich man Dives, he lived so well,
Dip your...etc.
And when he died, he went straight to hell,
Dip your...etc.

There were more verses than that, but those are the first two that sprang to mind. Neither of the tunes mentioned are anything like the tune we learned, unless there are more than one with the same name, and I'm just not familiar!

It was one of my all-time favorites from junior high school choir.

Denise:^)

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 03:15 AM

There's also The rich man and the poor man, a humorous parody. Haven't sung it for years - I musat brush up on it.

Steve

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From:
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 01:03 PM

Are there any CDs that have traditional, sung versions of the song Dives and Lazarus? I would prefer a simple version, such as those produced by the Folksong Society or recorded by Alan Lomax. I have yet to come upon a CD of English tradional folksongs that contains one or more versions of this song.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Dec 03 - 02:16 PM

Assuming that you mean recordings of traditional rather than revival singers, there seem to be very few. Two are currently listed in the Roud Folk Song Index:

Library of Congress AFS L57: Child Ballads Traditional in the United States: Aunt Molly Jackson, Clay County, Kentucky, 1939. Dives and Lazarus.

Folktracks FSA 129: Blow the Windy Morning: Emily Bishop, Bromsberrow Heath, Herefordshire, 1952. Divers and Lazarus.

I don't know whether or not you can still get Library of Congress records, but for what it's worth the sleevenotes can be seen online: Child Ballads Traditional in the United States: Dives and Lazarus

I think that the Bishop set also appeared on The Folk Songs of Britain, Vol. 9. Songs of Ceremony (Topic Records in the UK, Caedmon in the USA), but that is long out of print. You can get copies of material that Peter Kennedy recorded in the '50s from his Folktrax label; sometimes the compilations have been given different titles since those listed by Roud. Emily Bishop's set appears on two:

FTX 129: COUNTRY SONGS & CAROLS: EMILY BISHOP OF BROMSBERROW

FTX 504: THE BITTER WITHY: EARLY FOLK CAROLS

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,M. R. Anderson
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:57 AM

Here are a few other places that I've come across the tune. Vaughan Williams adapted it to lyics written by Louis F. Benson for a song called 'O Sing a Song of Bethlehem', found in the United Methodist hymnal. The tune is identified as Kingsfold at the bottom of the page. V. Williams used it again in Seventeen Come Sunday, the first movement of his Folk Song Suite. Listen to the bass line (low brass). Williams reportedly first came across the tune in 1893 when he got hold of the publication English County Songs, edited by Lucy Broadwood and J.A. Fuller Maitland. Catherine O'Connell uses the melody for a song called 'Turning of the Canticle', from her release 'I Arise Today'. And lastly, guitar virtuoso Phil Keaggy plays the tune for a song entitled 'I Feel the Winds of God Today',from his cd 'Beyond Nature'.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: masato sakurai
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 06:36 AM

See also Tune Kingsfold.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST,m. r. anderson
Date: 10 Nov 04 - 10:19 PM

A NICE VERSION OF STAR OF THE COUNTY DOWN CAN BE FOUND ON A CD CALLED 'CUP OF TEA' BY THE GROUP GOOD COMPANY. THEY ALSO DO A SPLENDID VERSION OF GALWAY BAY.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Francy
Date: 11 Nov 04 - 12:59 AM

Rick Lee from Natick, Massachusetts has a fine version of the song on his Waterbug cd "there's Talk About A Fence".....WBG 0047......

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jan 07 - 11:24 PM

Denise. I also sang that version of "Poor Man Lazarus" in school. I would love to find all the verses for my Sunday school class to sing. Any info would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 02:10 PM

denise:

Josh White (Sr.) did a wonderful bluesy version of "Dip His Fingers in the Water". Words slightly different from yours, but not greatly. I recommend it highly.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Gurney
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:18 PM

Steve's version is the one that Sean Cannon did, although, from memory, it has one more verse than Sean's.

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:25 PM

Here's a link to a video clip of "Dives & Lazarus" from YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXlmfCnuKzQ

Added August 17, 2006; From piqquam

"Vilma Pääkkö singing Dives and Lazarus in Pori Folk 2006"

Subject: RE: Variants of Dives and Lazarus
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Jan 07 - 11:44 PM

Here's a YouTube link to a rendition of Poor Man Lazarus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyQj1W6UG_s

Added November 12, 2006;From zanebeima
"Women's Chorale - Poor Man Lazarus in th Women's Chorale - Poor Man Lazarus in the Riverside Church in Manhattan"

[note: the visual and sound quality of this video isn't good, but you can tell that the tempo of this song is much faster than the Dives & Lazarus song that I just posted.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dives and Lazarus (variants)
From: GUEST,Tiane
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:40 PM

I really appreciated the link to a performance of Dives and Lazarus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXlmfCnuKzQ). Here's another sound clip you might appreciate, of another song using the tune. http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/mp3/5/0/6/50699.mp3 It's titled 'If You Could Hie to Kolob' and is sung in my husband's church. VERY beautiful, though I don't think this version does it justice.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dives and Lazarus (variants)
From: The Doctor
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Nic Jones sang it, and it appears on both 'Unearthed' and 'Game Set Match'. Martin Simpson recorded it on 'The Bramble Briar', repeated on the 'Definitive'. The words appear in 'The Oxford Book of Carols', set to another tune, but with a reference to the 2nd tune of 'Come all you worthy Christian men', and that is the tune in question. It appears in many hymnbooks set to the words 'I heard the voice of Jesus say'.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Dives and Lazarus (variants)
From: Darowyn
Date: 02 May 07 - 04:52 PM

It was common in classical stories to name characters after their stock characteristics. An example of a stock character would be Miles Gloriosus- the boastful soldier.
Literally from Latin, Dives and Lazarus means "A rich man" and "A leper"

I love the rocked-up version that June Tabor and the Oyster Band do on the "Cold Open Fields" album.
Cheers
Dave