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Origins: Dives and Lazarus-or vice versa(Child 56)

DigiTrad:
DIVERS AND LAZARUS
LAZARUS
LAZARUS
THE RICH MAN AND THE POOR MAN


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Roy Roger Um / Hi Ho Jerum / Hi Ro Jerum (32)
Info: Rich Man and the Poor Man / Hi Ro Jerum (16)
Lyr Req: kafoozalem? kafoozleum? Ka-Foozle-Um (26)
SING OUT Volume 33 - Hi Roger Rum (18)
Hi Roger Rum (11)
tune Req: Dives and Lazarus (variants) (37)
Tune Req: Dives & Lazarus + Brigg Fair (11)
Lyr Req: Hi Rosherum (4) (closed)
Lyr Req: Lazarus: There was a little family... (4)


Scabby Douglas 09 May 02 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Paul 09 May 02 - 12:35 PM
IanC 09 May 02 - 12:36 PM
wysiwyg 09 May 02 - 12:44 PM
greg stephens 09 May 02 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Peter 09 May 02 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 May 02 - 01:02 PM
Ringer 09 May 02 - 01:22 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 01:34 PM
wysiwyg 09 May 02 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 May 02 - 01:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 02 - 02:12 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 02 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 May 02 - 02:45 PM
Wyrd Sister 09 May 02 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Claymore 09 May 02 - 02:50 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 02:51 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 02 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 May 02 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 May 02 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 09 May 02 - 03:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 02 - 03:27 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 03:59 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 02 - 04:26 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 May 02 - 04:27 PM
Noreen 09 May 02 - 04:46 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 May 02 - 04:48 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 05:22 PM
Herga Kitty 09 May 02 - 06:05 PM
greg stephens 09 May 02 - 07:09 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 07:39 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 07:49 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 07:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 02 - 07:59 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 May 02 - 08:39 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 08:48 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 May 02 - 09:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 May 02 - 09:35 PM
wysiwyg 09 May 02 - 09:47 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 May 02 - 09:58 PM
Malcolm Douglas 09 May 02 - 10:31 PM
Herga Kitty 10 May 02 - 02:29 AM
Scabby Douglas 10 May 02 - 04:37 AM
IanC 10 May 02 - 04:57 AM
IanC 10 May 02 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Bill Kennedy 10 May 02 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Pied Piper 10 May 02 - 10:26 AM
Ringer 10 May 02 - 10:50 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 10 May 02 - 11:40 AM
Scabby Douglas 10 May 02 - 12:11 PM
Malcolm Douglas 10 May 02 - 12:32 PM
Uncle_DaveO 10 May 02 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,guest 17 Feb 09 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,CC 18 Aug 09 - 08:30 PM
Gweltas 18 Aug 09 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,MtheGM 18 Aug 09 - 11:22 PM
Joe Offer 17 Feb 10 - 02:15 AM
GUEST,Bedinog 05 Jan 11 - 12:38 PM
Gurney 05 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Meg 12 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM
Jim McLean 13 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM
Will Fly 13 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM
MGM·Lion 13 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Scabby Douglas 13 Jun 11 - 07:54 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM
Darowyn 21 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM
Joe Offer 26 Mar 15 - 02:58 PM
Tradsinger 27 Mar 15 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Dave 27 Mar 15 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,JS 21 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM
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Subject: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:30 PM

I've never knowingly heard this sung - I've got the tune so that's OK, and I've got loads of words so that's fine too..

My questions is:

"Dives" or "Diverus" - would that be pronounced "Dee-vez", "Dee-vess", "Die - vez", Dee-ver-uss? etc.. etc...

Anyone help?

Cheers


Related threads:


Variants of Dives and Lazarus
Dives & Lazarus/Brigg fair etc

Steven


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:35 PM

"Dee-vez" is the correct pronounciation

Paul


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: IanC
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:36 PM

Die-Veez seems to be pretty much the standard. Some traditional singers seem to sing "Diverus" but I'm not sure where that came from. ;-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:44 PM

Biblically it's Die-veez.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 May 02 - 12:44 PM

The only time in my life I met a "source"(as opposed to revival) singer who knew this song(hecouldnt remember it but he referred to it)he pronounced it Di-vees.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:00 PM

Susan,

Curious as to what you mean by:

Biblically it's Die-veez.

Does that mean it was pronounced that way in the original Greek or was said that way by early Christions?

Curious as to how you know that that is the correct pronouciation.

Peter


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:02 PM

it is as stated by most above die-veez, means 'wealthy', which makes sense since it's 'Lazarus at the Rich Man's (Dives) Gate'


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Ringer
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:22 PM

I don't think the "certain rich man" is named in Luke's gospel, is he?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:34 PM

Dives is Latin for rich, a rich man. The Reformed Academic pronunciation is Dee-ves.
The Oxford English Dictionary goes with dee-ves (Oxbridge, upper class), but average Britons are probably taught Die-ves. Church Latin in English-speaking countries mostly goes with die-ves.
Webster's Collegiate goes with Die-ves.
The first printed usage in English is in Chaucer (14th C). How it was pronounced at that time is unknown.

How it would be pronounced in Ancient Greek, Aramaic, or other Biblical-age language is unknown. We know very little about English pronunciation before the vowel shift, let alone how people talked 2000 years ago. The word "dives" would only have appeared in Latin in Biblical times.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:44 PM

Husband is classically trained Episcopal clergy, currently an examining chaplain in Scripture for our Diocese, meaning that he evaluates that part of the GOE (General Ordination Examination) taken by people in our denomination after seminary to determine if they need to do further work before being ordained. Knows his stuff.

I'll ask him to post more about Dives when he gets a chance.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 01:44 PM

he is unnamed, just 'a certain rich man', in Luke, but has become known as Dives, I think because by misunderstanding the meaning of the Latin noun became the Proper name. We might call it the story of Rich and Lazarus if we were rewriting it in today's idiom. And maybe come up with a name that, like Lazarus, means 'helpless', or 'helped by God', Theo---something, if we went the Greek route.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:12 PM

"Never say die", they tell you. But in this case, always sing it. Whatever it might say in any dictionary, for the song and the tune it's pronounced Divees (or Diverus in some variants - I imagine that would have been to match Lazarus).


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:14 PM

I think that when you're talking biblical Latin, the "correct" pronunciation would be the one I learned in a Roman Catholic seminary, since the Roman church is the one that used Latin on a regular, day-to-day basis. We called it the "Italian" or "ecclesiastical" pronunciation of Latin, as opposed to the so-called "classical" or "academic" pronunciation taught in the UK and in upper-class schools in the U.S. I suppose you could say that Paul is right in saying that "DEE-vez" is the correct pronounciation, since that's the pronunciation used by people who actually read the Bible aloud in Latin. As Dicho says, "DEE-vez" is also approximately the correct pronunciation in the classical-academic realm.

But, as said above, "Dives" is not actually a name used in the Bible, which refers only to "a certain rich man" (which in Latin is "dives," with a lower-case "d"). "Dives," with a capital "D" is a name given by English-speaking preachers to the unnamed rich man.

When English-speaking people use Latin, they ordinarily massacre the pronunciation. The English pronunciation of Latin "scientific" names has very little relation to actual Latin pronunciation, and I think you could say the same for the way that preachers and singers pronounce "Dives." I've always heard it "DIE-vees," and I suppose that's the way it's sung.

Are there instances anybody can document when it's authentic to sing it "DEE-vees"?

I studied Latin for 6 years and I'm familiar with both the Italian and "classical" pronunciations. When I'm speaking English, I suppose I'm wrong if I try to pronounce Latin names according to correct Latin pronunciation. The "correct" way to use Latin words in English is to slaughter them like all the other English-speakers do.

So, I guess I'd have to say that the "correct" way to pronounce Dives is to pronounce it incorrectly.

Got that?

In short, I'd go for "DIE-vees", even though it's wrong.

-Joe Offer, winner of the coveted Auxilium Latinum award-


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:45 PM

what Joe said! except HE is not pronouncing it wrong, all the English Church people are! - I also have had at least 6 years of Latin, Secondary School, College and church Latin at an earlier age, - Cassell's has it pronounced (not spelt) as 'die-ves', and it is sung 'die-vees' and to me it is 'die-vees'. Folk process can make it whatever it wants, Divarus, for example. But foreign words in use in the US, especially for town names, were picked out of books, and are hopelessly mispronounced though correctly so by their inhabitants. Kay Row, Illinois, My Lin, Ohio, (and Burr' Lin, Ohio, which was pronounced correctly at first but the pronunciation of consciously changed at the onset of the First World War, I am told), for example, you all can think of hundreds others, i'm sure


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:47 PM

My latin teacher would have had us say Dee-ways. Norma Waterson sings 'Brother Diverus', I can hear it in my head but can't remember which recording. I think it's just to help the scansion in some verses.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:50 PM

I care not for the debate, since I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do wish to point out that the whole symphony, by von Williams, was built around the old song, "Star of the County Down", which appears in a slow majestic theme throughout.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:51 PM

WYSIWYG, as noted above, Reformed Academic and English Church Latin pronunciations usually are different. The vowels are not the same, neither are the vowel combinations.
Reformed Academic a, e, i, o, u = aah, ay, ee, oh, ooh.
To go on to the combinations, oe is pronounced as in toil in Reformed Academic but generally pronounced as in bee in traditional English or church English.
Consonants vary as well; c in R.A. as adopted by classical scholars is always pronounced as in cat (centum is always Kentum, etc. Cae is ky, Caesar is pronounced Kaiser. In other words, there is a split in pronunciation.
Having worked in systematic botany and paleontology, I use Reformed Academic. I would presume your husband would not use these pronunciations since they would confuse the congregation.


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Subject: ADD: Dives and Lazarus (English Carol)^^^
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 02 - 02:59 PM

Dang, Claymore, you're right. I forgot about Vaughn Williams. His arrangement of the hymn is here (click) in the CyberHymnal. How is "Dives" pronounced in THAT hymn, and how did he pronounce it for his symphonic "Five Variants of Dives and Lazarus"?
I'll betcha it's still DIE-vees, but I guess we'd better ask the UK people about that.
-Joe Offer-

DIVES AND LAZARUS


Words: Traditional English carol, possibly from Herefordshire.

As it fell out upon one day,
Rich Divès made a feast,
And he invited all his friends,
And gentry of the best.

Then Lazarus laid him down and down
And down at Divès’ door:
“Some meat and drink, brother, Diverus,
Bestow upon the poor.”

“Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus,
That liest begging at my door;
No meat, nor drink will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.”

Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
All under Divès’ wall:
“Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
For hunger starve I shall.”

“Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus,
That liest begging at my gate;
No meat, no drink will I give thee,
For Jesus Christ His sake.”

Then Divès sent out his hungry dogs,
To bite him as he lay;
They hadn’t the power to bite one bite,
But licked his sores away.

Then Divès sent to his merry men,
To worry poor Lazarus away;
They’d not the power to strike one stroke,
But flung their whips away.

As it fell out upon one day,
Poor Lazarus sickened and died;
There came two angels out of heaven,
His soul therein to guide.

“Rise up! rise up! brother Lazarus,
And go along with me;
For you’ve a place prepared in heaven,
To sit on an angel’s knee.”

As it fell out upon one day,
Rich Divès sickened and died;
There came two serpents out of hell,
His soul therein to guide.

“Rise up! rise up! brother Diverus,
And come along with me;
There is a place provided in hell
For wicked men like thee.”

Then Divès looked up with his eyes
And saw poor Lazarus blest;
“Give me one drop of water, brother Lazarus,
To quench my flaming thirst.”

“O, was I now but alive again
The space of one half hour!
O, that I had my peace again
Then the devil should have no power.”


(almost the same lyrics as "Divers and Lazarus" in the Digital Tradition)^^^
The two versions in Child (#56) are also very similar.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:03 PM

just occurred to me you might want to hear it sung! June Tabor does it on Freedom and Rain, and on June Tabor and the Oyster Band; It's also on Nic Jones recently released 'Unearthed' double cd; and earlier, if you can find it, on 'Young Tradition' with Peter Bellamy, Heather Woods and ? can't remember; I'm sure others would have other suggestions for listening as well


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:06 PM

actually, I think star of the county down lifted the tune from Dives and Lazarus, which goes back a ways, and I think you probably know it is Ralph (pronounced Rafe) Vaughan Williams, not to be snooty, just to be helpful


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:14 PM

and since Vaughan Williams couldn't even pronounce Ralph correctly, what did he do with Dives?!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:27 PM

At school they taught us what the official classical pronunciations were, so we'd know what they were - and they always sounded bloody silly: "wayni, weedy, weaky" for "veni, vidi vici," and so forth.

But the correct way to pronounce it, of course, was the Church Latin way. After all, that was the only place where it was still a living spoken language, and that's what matters in these things.

Is there any reason to think the academic pronunciations are any closer to the way the Romans actually spoke the language?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 03:59 PM

Joe, it depends on where Vaughan Williams went to school, where he went to church, and his own personal preference. I would guess that he pronounced it Die-ves, since I don't believe he was Oxbridge, but since he is dead, we can't ask him.
Dives and Lazarus is Child # 56, so I guess we are safe in calling it traditional- but I can't find it in the DT under Dives. Child attended Harvard, so I would guess he pronounced it Die-ves. I have posted a Negro spiritual version (thread 9673) which shows in the threads. Lots of songs about low dives, however. If I enter Dives, or Dives and Lazarus, I get the Murder of Maria Martin (now is she Ma ree a or Ma rye ya? - I pick the former).
Putting Lazarus in the Forum turns up "'Divers' and Lazarus" (which seems to be var. #5, Diverus and Lazarus, in Child). A spelling check is needed here. Since Vaughan Williams died in 1958, his arrangement of the old song is still probably copyrighted somewhere.


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Subject: ADD: Dives and Lazarus - Child #56 A & B
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 02 - 04:26 PM

A while back, MMario e-mailed me what he said were all of the texts for all of the songs in Child. Seems appropriate to post #56 A & B here, even though they're all caps. There is one version in the Digital Tradition, Divers and Lazarus, but it's quite different.
-Joe Offer-
Dives and Lazarus

CHILD 56A

a. Sylvester, A Garland of Christmas Carols, p. 50, from an old Birmingham broadside. b. Husk, Songs of the Nativity, p. 94, from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century.

AS it fell out upon a day,
Rich Dives he made a feast,
And he invited all his friends,
And gentry of the best.
Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
And down at Dives' door:
'Some meat, some drink, brother Dives,
Bestow upon the poor.'
'Thou art none of my brother, Lazarus,
That lies begging at my door;
No meat nor drink will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.'
Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
And down at Dive's wall:
'Some meat, some drink, brother Dives,
Or with hunger starve I shall.'
'Thou art none of my brother, Lazarus,
That lies begging at my wall;
No meat nor drink will I give thee,
But with hunger starve you shall.'
Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
And down at Dive's gate:
'Some meat, some drink, brother Dives,
For Jesus Christ sake.'
'Thou art none of my brother, Lazarus,
That lies begging at my gate;
No meat nor drink will I give thee,
For Jesus Christ his sake.'
Then Dives sent out his merry men,
To whip poor Lazarus away;
They had no power to strike a stroke,
But flung their whips away.
Then Dives sent out his hungry dogs,
To bite him as he lay;
They had no power to bite at all,
But licked his sores away.
As it fell out upon a day,
Poor Lazarus sickened and died;
Then came two angels out of heaven
His soul therein to guide.
'Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus,
And go along with me;
For you've a place prepared in heaven,
To sit on an angel's knee.'
As it fell out upon a day,
Rich Dives sickened and died;
Then came two serpents out of hell,
His soul therein to guide.
'Rise up, rise up, brother Dives,
And go with us to see
A dismal place, prepared in hell,
From which thou canst not flee.'
Then Dives looked up with his eyes,
And saw poor Lazarus blest:
'Give me one drop of water, brother Lazarus,
To quench my flaming thirst.
'Oh had I as many years to abide
As there are blades of grass,
Then there would be an end, but now
Hell's pains will ne'er be past.
'Oh was I now but alive again,
The space of one half hour!
Oh that I had my peace secure!
Then the devil should have no power.'

56 B

From memory, as sung by carol-singers at Christmas, in Worcestershire, at Hagley and Hartlebury, F. S. L., in Notes and Queries, Fourth Series, III, 76.

AS it fell out upon one day,
Rich Diverus he made a feast,
And he invited all his friends,
And gentry of the best.
And it fell out upon one day,
Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
He came and laid him down and down.
Evn down at Diverus' door.
So Lazarus laid him down and down
Even down at Diverus' door:
'Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
Do bestow upon the poor.'
'Thou art none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my door:
No meat, no drink will I give thee,
Nor bestow upon the poor.'
Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
Even down at Diverus' wall:
'Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
Or surely starve I shall.
'Thou art none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my wall;
No meat, no drink will I give thee,
And therefore starve thou shall.'
Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
Even down at Diverus' gate:
'Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
For Jesus Christ his sake.'
'Thou art none of mine, brother Lazarus,
Lying begging at my gate;
No meat, no drink will I give thee,
For Jesus Christ his sake.
Then Diverus sent out his merry men all,
To whip poor Lazarus away;
They had not power to whip one whip,
But threw their whips away.
Then Diverus sent out his hungry dogs,
To bite poor Lazarus away;
They had not power to bite one bite,
But licked his sores away.
And it fell out upon one day,
Poor Lazarus he sickened and died;
There came two angels out of heaven,
His soul thereto to guide.
'Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus,
And come along with me;
There is a place prepared in heaven,
For to sit upon an angel's knee.'
And it fell out upon one day
Rich Diverus he sickened and died;
There came two serpents out of hell,
His soul thereto to guide.
'Rise up, rise up, brother Diverus,
And come along with me;
There is a place prepared in hell,
For to sit upon a serpent's knee.'


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 04:27 PM

Maria Martin (Ma rye ya, usually) was commonly sung to one of the tunes that also carried some versions of Dives (and a great many more songs, the earliest known being the Scottish Gilderoy). Star of the County Down is an early 20th century composition set to the same tune.

Re the "new" Latin pronounciation: the re-assessment was based on a detailed analysis of Classical literature. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons for believing that Romans in the classical period pronounced v more-or-less as w is that there were a lot of Classical Latin puns which depended on that being the case. Medieval Latin was pronounced rather differently, of course.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Noreen
Date: 09 May 02 - 04:46 PM

The Vaughan Williams piece is pronounced Die-veez too (here in the UK).

Nic Jones's song on Unearthed is entitled Dives and Lazarus, but he sings about Die-verus.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 04:48 PM

Child 56A was taken from Joshua Sylvester's A Garland of Christmas Carols, ancient and modern, including some never before given in any collections, London, 1861. Sylvester cited "an old Birmingham broadside" as his source. Under 56A Child also cites a text in Wm. Henry Husk's Songs of the Nativity (London, 1870s), derived from "from a Worcestershire broadside of the last century", and specifies the relatively minor particulars in which it differs from the main text.

There are a number of broadside texts at Bodleian Library Broadsides, including four printed in Birmingham.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 05:22 PM

Medieval Latin causes scholars to tear at their hair. The middle European area especially spawned usages that are untranslatable and words whose meanings are questionable. Increased interest in old music and performance of old secular music means that a "best interpretation" has to be made. We are fortunate in that most of the old, classical period Latin that has been preserved is not vulgar- the common people could not write it and heaven knows what their speech was like.
Of course, Academic or so-called classical Latin pronunciations are an interpretation just as those of long dead Englishmen.
Malcolm, although in sciences, during the summer I filled out the school year with literature courses. One young instructor, hired from England and teaching his first year at Univ. Texas, had his problems with our pronunciation. One book we studied had a character named Sophia- which we pronounced as So-phee-ya and often shortened to So-phee. In that region, the Sophias we knew were either Spanish or from the large central Texas German settlements. He was as interested in our language as we were in his, so we had a lot of discussions that had nothing to do with the literature we were be dissecting. Of course, we only had Ma-ree-yas in classes there. But drunks picked up by the police rode to jail in the "black ma-rye-ah"

Joe, thanks for posting the Child versions of Dives and Lazarus and filling that gap. A version of 56A starts out "As it fell out on a light dully day." Apparently this means a bright holiday. If I find a good, different version from the States, I will post it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 May 02 - 06:05 PM

The YT certainly sang it as Die-verus (none of these finicky divas).

Mc Grath should remember his 1066 and all that. After Julius Caesar pronounced that all the Britons were weeny, weedy and weaky, they lost heart and fled.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 May 02 - 07:09 PM

Fascinating the number of people who have opinions on the "correct" way to pronounce it. I can't help feeling that my recollection of how an old guy down a lane in Essex, living in a shack and putting condensed milk in his tea actually DID pronounce it: well, it means more to me than any theories.His name was David Francis. he had a fund of songs, he was getting on and he couldnt remember all of them very well. vaughan Williams (bless his soul) loved very deeply what he got from people like that. So do I.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 07:39 PM

I couldn't help wondering where the tale came from, and got a partial answer from the Catholic Encyclopaedia. Jeremias, a "prophet" who lived at the end of the 7th and the early part of the 6th Centuries BC, from near Jerusalem, wrote some of the story. He said it was an Egyptian Folk Tale of the journey of Si-Osiris, the son of Setme Chamois to the underworld, which concludes with the words: 'He who has been good on earth, will be blessed in the kingdom of the dead.' Alexandrian Jews brought this story to Palestine, where it became very popular as the story of the poor scholar and the rich publican Bar Ma'Jan. In a dream, the fate of these two men in the next world was seen. A few days after both men were buried the scholar was seen in gardens of paradisal beauty, watered by flowing streams. Bar Ma'Jan the publican was seen standing on the bank of a stream and trying to reach the water, but unable to do so.
Both Jesus and the Pharisees would have been familiar with this folklore, according to Jeremias.

The arrangement by Holst, using the tune "Kingsfold," is more pleasing to me than the Vaughn Williams arrangement. The verses and the midi are at: Dives (Holst)
The Holst arrangement can be heard on the Hyperion cd "This I Have Done For My True Love," sung by the Holst Singers.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 07:49 PM

Error: Not Jeremias, but the writer of the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia, stated that the story would be familiar to Jesus and the Pharisees. See: Rich Man


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 07:56 PM

Don't see my error: http://courses.nmu.edu/bl425gl/stu-not-2000/ma-lk16_19-31.htm.
Or type Jeremias into Google and select Catholic Encyclopedia.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 02 - 07:59 PM

"We are fortunate in that most of the old, classical period Latin that has been preserved is not vulgar"

Well, I call that unfortunate. I don't mean that less of the literary stuff should have been preserved, but it's be great to have the vulgar stuff that the ordinary people spoke as well. The stuff that the Roman equivalents of the kind of people who made the songs we like singing would have used. The kind of stuff our own equivalents in Roman times would have spoken to each other in.

I always rather resent the years I spent learning Latin, and I never was able to speak it, and one reason for that is, I'm pretty sure, that the Latin they taught us - leaving aside the pronunciation, which isn't that important - wasn't what people used for talking at all. I think they'd have done much better to give us, as a foundation, the corrupted late Latin that it's possible to actually speak in.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 08:39 PM

Pronounciation would be pretty useful if you had wanted to speak it! Classical Latin, as taught, is based on what are considered the "best" exponents of the written language ( Cicero for prose in particular), so it bears the same kind of relationship to (putative) spoken Latin of the same period as polished literary prose of the present day does to the current demotic. Having said that, the main reason why medieval Latin is easier to understand is probably because the word-order and vocabulary more closely resemble the usage in modern European languages. I found Erasmus far easier to translate than Cicero, for example; and a damn sight more entertaining, if it comes to that.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 08:48 PM

You are right, of course, we were taught only literary written Latin. The vulgar is gone. Poorly expressed, my point was that if some scribbles did turn up, we would have a hell of a time trying to put meaning to them. We have odes by well-known Roman writers, some based on folk tales, but no language, poetry or tales directly from the common people of the time. We have only a word or two of the slang of the day and no knowledge of the allusions that were common.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 09:08 PM

I was replying to McGrath's post rather than yours, but the vulgar is not entirely lost. Beside my point about the v/w pronounciation being established by reference to puns (and therefore reflecting common rather than literary practice), there are plenty of Latin graffiti of the period that demonstrate demotic usage, those preserved at Pompeii and Herculaneum (mainly in brothels, if I recall correctly) being particularly amusing, if brief.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 02 - 09:35 PM

I myself don't speak in "polished literary prose", even in English, and I don't even think many polished literary people do.

The thing with Latin it was spoken by all kinds of people across the whole contnent as a second language - rather like English is in most of the places it's spoken. I don't imagine they all spoke it the same way.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 02 - 09:47 PM

Here is Hardiman's view....

~S~

==========================================

Hi everyone,

What a great thread: any of the suggested pronounciations of "Dives" is OK, but I've usually heard "Die-vees."

However you pronounce it, the name is not a proper name found in the Bible. It comes from the Latin, meaning riches---preachers have used "Dives" 'cause it is easier than saying "the rich bastard." :-)

The name Dives has been traditionally used to refer to two presumably distinct individuals from the Bible:
1) the rich man in Luke 16:19 and
2) the young man in Luke 18:18.

Now, Lazarus-- the poor man named Lazarus in Luke 16 is not the same as the Lazarus of John's Gospel. The Lazarus of John 11 was the brother of Mary and Martha, whom Jesus raised from the dead. Lazarus was apparently a common name!

No Dives, two Lazaruses, and here's a mind bender: the name of the penitent thief, crucified with Jesus: also not named in the Bible, but traditionally called St. Dismas. (Just in case you are passing a Saint Dismas hospital somewhere.)

cheers,

Hardiman the Fiddler


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 May 02 - 09:58 PM

Erasmus, writing during the renaissance in the early 16th C, was following rules of grammar and composition that were becoming formalized into the modern Latin language used by scholars and scientists during the 17th C and later.
New species of plants still must have a Latin diagnosis. The changes in Latin at that time certainly made it easier for botanists to deal with their discoveries. The diagnoses now are becoming skeletal as Latin in dropped from most curricula.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 May 02 - 10:31 PM

I see that Joe has added to his earlier post since I provided the provenance for Child 56A. I suppose I'd better do likewise for version B. This is titled Diverus and Lazarus, and is described as "From memory, as sung by carol-singers at Christmas, in Worcestershire, at Hagley and Hartlebury, 1829-39; F.S.L., in Note and Queries, Fourth Series, III, [page] 76."

This was the edition of January 1869; the page in question can be seen online at The Internet Library of Early Journals:

A Worcestershire Carol (1)
A Worcestershire Carol (2)

"F.S.L.", who called the song A Carol of Diverus and Lazarus, commented:

"I forward a copy, from memory, of one of our Worcestershire ballads. This is a carol, or was sung for one, and every village child knew it thirty to forty years ago. I once saw it (about 1833) on a hawker's broadsheet, but have never seen it since; and of late years the clergy have been discouraging carol-singing of this kind..."


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 May 02 - 02:29 AM

For Bill Kennedy's benefit, the third member of the Young Tradition was Royston Wood.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 10 May 02 - 04:37 AM

Wellll!!!............

I logged back in this morning, thinking I'd find one or 2 follow-up posts to my original question... little did I know.

A real big "Thank you" to everyone who has added their weight to the discussion.

My original feeling was that,like some other contributors have said, the traditional English/British way with Latin names or words is to slaughter them without mercy. So I'll probably go with Die-ves. But who knows.. Thanks again for all the other info.. Now all I have to do is to start learning it and singing it..

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: IanC
Date: 10 May 02 - 04:57 AM

Just a small bit of extra information. Elizabeth I, in a wish to control the printing of books and pamphlets (there had been no systematic censorship till then) passed an act (1558 I think) that everything printed in England which was not printed by Oxford or Cambridge Universities was to be licensed by The Stationers Company in London. The fee for the licence of a book was 2d, Ballets and pamphlets were rather less, I think.

In the Register of the Company of Stationers July 1557-July 1558 (written up in July 1558) is an entry of payment for licence to print the "Ballet of the Ryche Man and Poore Lazarus". This is probably Dives and Lazarus.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: IanC
Date: 10 May 02 - 07:40 AM

As usual, my memory for dates is a bit vague ... resulting in a simplistic and slightly inaccurate post. Here's the info. re; the Stationer's Company (compressed from various sources).

In 1534, Henry VIII granted letters patent to the Chancellor of the University of Cambridge to appoint three printers who, within the University, could print and publish any books of which the Chancellor and three doctors approved. This is a very early example of a licence being granted to one or more persons to determine whether works were fit to print and, further, to be able to print them. After some time the King realised that there was the possibility of making money out of the printing process if an appropriate monopoly was put in place. Thus, in 1547 Edward VI granted a monopoly to the King's printer over a number of specific categories of material. The monopoly was granted over Acts of Parliament, books of the rights and services of the resettled Church of England, Bibles and testaments, law books and year books, almanacks, educational works and Latin grammars. This monopoly in favour of the King himself was, some years later, followed by what we might call an industry self regulation scheme if it was established today.

In 1557 the Stationer's Company was established by royal charter (it had originally been a book trade guild formed in 1403 by the association of scriveners, limners, bookbinders and stationers), and this charter was confirmed in the first year of Elizabeth's reign (1558). In 1566 an ordinance was passed by the Star Chamber for the censorship of the press. The effect of the Stationer's Company charter and the ordinance of the Star Chamber was that the Stationer's Company was given a monopoly over printing and broad powers to enforce it. For example, the ordinance of the Star Chamber prohibited any person from printing any book against the force and meaning of any ordinance, law, injunction or letters patent and the Stationer's Company was authorised to enter onto premises and inspect a printer's printing operations to ensure compliance with these regulations as well as to act as customs officials to intercept trade in books.

This is quite important because The Stationers Company register is often the source of earliest dates for many songs and, later, becomes useful for establishing first printings.

As a note of caution, though, it's worth reading this thread about song forgeries.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 10 May 02 - 09:10 AM

Thanks, Herga, I would have remembered eventually, but much too late to add it to this thread, and everyone interested would have already found it somewhere else by then! One thing not mentioned is that Lazarus' name was/is much more common in its Hebrew form, Eleazer. Lazarus was/is the Latin form, and not many were named such, but there were plenty of Eleazer's, at least into the late 19th c.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Pied Piper
Date: 10 May 02 - 10:26 AM

"the whole symphony, by von Williams, was built around the old song, "Star of the County Down", which appears in a slow majestic theme throughout."Sorry Claymore the tune was stolen by the Irish you can find the English original in Bronson.All the best PP


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Ringer
Date: 10 May 02 - 10:50 AM

If you look at Luke 16, you see that Dives & Lazarus is basically 2 parables: first "The poor go to heaven, the heedless rich go to hell" (I simplify) and second: "The (Jewish) law is enough; it doesn't need the dead to be raised to life to confirm it."

The version sung occasionally at a session I attend is basically Child-56B as given by Joe above, but with 2 extra verses which roughly correspond to the second parable:

Then Dives laid him down and down, even down in Hell's deep pit.
"Some water, Brother Lazerus, just a drop from your fingertip."
"I may not, Brother Dives, I may not give it thee;
You've earned yourself your place in Hell, a-sitting on a serpent's knee."

"Then go, I pray, Brother Lazerus, unto my brothers seven
And tell them what has befallen me, lest they too fail of heaven."
"I may not, Brother Dives, I may not." Lazerus said.
"For if they pay no heed to the law, they'll pay no heed to the dead."

Anyone else come across them?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 May 02 - 11:40 AM

It would be interesting to know how this old tale from the Alexandrian Jews (and originally(?) the Egyptians worked its way down through time. Are there any any Sephardic or other Jewish songs with this tale that predate the English versions?


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:11 PM

I believe that the existence of the English song comes directly from the Bible or the Apocrypha, as do some other songs, notably "The Bitter Withy" and "The Well Below The Valley"

I'd also be intrigued to hear about versions of this or other songs in other languages...

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:32 PM

F.J. Child had this to say on the subject:

"The subject could not escape the popular muse: e.g. Socard, Nöels et Cantiques imprimés à Troyes, Histoire de Lazare et du Mauvais Riche, p. 118 ff; 'El mal rico', Milá, Romancerillo, p. 16, No. 16, A-F; 'Lazarus', Des Dülkener Fiedlers Liederbuch, p. 53, No. 63; 'Lazare a bohatec,' Sušil, Moravské Národní Písne;, p. 19, No. 18, Wenzig, Bibliothek Slavischer Poesien, p. 114; Bezsonof, Kalyeki Perekhozhie, I, 43-47, Nos. 19-27.

There is a very beautiful ballad, in which the Madonna takes the place of Lazarus, in Roadside Songs of Tuscany, Francesca Alexander and John Ruskin, 'La Madonna e il Riccone,' p. 82."

These are not relatives, as such, of our Dives and Lazarus, but different songs on the same subject.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 May 02 - 12:53 PM

Scabby Doug, another song from the Apocrypha is The Cherry Tree Carol, from I believe False Mark.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 05:19 AM

Does anybody have the chords to the above song as song by Martin Simpson? Be great if we could all play it.
guest, palmer


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,CC
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:30 PM

As an Oxford educated Anglo-catholic priest I always rather thought the convention was 'dee-wes' but I guess we'll never know entirely.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Gweltas
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:42 PM

In my 5 years of Latin study in a convent school in Ireland we were taught to pronounce Dives as "DEE-ves"


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,MtheGM
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:22 PM

Surprised that none of all you classically educated has pointed out that the reason Latin V was taken in "Reformed Pronunciation" to be pronounced like our W is that it was just a conventional way of writing our U: so that "Claudius" on an inscription would appear as "Clavdivs"; so before a vowel it would be pronounced as W. Hence some people's theory that "Dee-wayz" would have been correct for "Dives". But that theory is of early 20C origin — A P Herbert had some sarcastic things to say about it in the 1930s; so is unlikely to have appealed to source singers of 18-19C.


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Subject: ADD Version: Dives and Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 02:15 AM

I was looking for a version of Dives and Lazarus with a chorus, and couldn't find one at Mudcat. I DID find a pretty good one at http://www.anglocatholicsocialism.org/singing.html, but I'm still looking for others. The tune, of course, is Kingsfold (Star of the County Down).
Any other versions with choruses?
-Joe-

Here's the version from anglocatholicsocialism.org (love that URL):

Dives and Lazarus

       As it fell out upon one day,
       Rich Diverus he made a feast;
       And he invited all his friends,
       And Gentry of the best.
       And it fell out upon one day,
       Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
       He came and laid him down and down,
       Ev'n down at Diverus door.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.


         Then Lazarus laid him down and down,
         Ev'n down at Diverus gate,
         Some meat, some drink, brother Diverus,
         For Jesu Christ his sake.
         Thou are none of my brother Lazarus,
         Lying begging at my gate,
         No meat, no drink, will I give thee,
         For Jesu Christ his sake.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.


         Then Diverus sent his merry men all,
         To whip poor Lazarus away.
         They had no power to whip one whip,
         But threw their whips away.
         Then Diverus sent out his hungry dogs,
         To bite poor Lazarus away;
         They had not power to bite one bite,
         But licked his sores away.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.


         And it fell out upon one day,
         Poor Lazarus sickened and died.
         There came two angels out of Heav'n,
         His soul thereto to guide.
         Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus,
         And come along with me.
         There is a place prepared in Heav'n,
         For to sit upon an angel's knee.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.


         And it fell out upon one day,
         Rich Diverus he sickened and died.
         There came two serpents out of hell,
         His soul thereto to guide.
         Rise up, rise up, brother Diverus,
         And come along with me.
         There is a place prepared in hell,
         For to sit upon a serpent's knee.

                And it fell out upon one day,
                Poor Lazarus he was so poor,
                He came and laid him down and down,
                Ev'n down at Diverus door.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Bedinog
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 12:38 PM

he voice of Ralph Vaughan Williams is heard on the Tony Parker film documentary about his life, and RVW specifically days 'Die-vees' when referring to his music. I think the composer knows what he's calling his own music irrespective of the scholarly views, and he did attend an 'Oxbridge' college- Trinity College, Cambridge.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Gurney
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:23 PM

So, the conclusion is,
everyone has an opinion,
opinions are all different,
it doesn't matter,
no-one knows,
various authorities are also out-of-date,
and we have to be guided by some-one dead who pronounced 'Ralph' as 'Rafe.' (In the English manner.)

Very edifying! :-)

I'll go go on singing it my own way, rhyming with 'hives.'


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:54 PM

Oh, the dives he visited-


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Meg
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:07 PM

can anyone tell me why Michael Raven left out the last verse of this Ballad in his "Songs from Ross workhouse? I would like to be able to introduce itwith a little history history at a concert next week but have not been able to explain why he leaves it out (He doesn't include the chorus either.)


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:07 AM

It has been mentioned that the melody used for Dives and Lazarus, LAZARUS from English Country Songs by Lucy Broadwood and Maitland, 1893, is also The Star of the County Down. I did some research on the tune family Lazarus, which has already been pointed out, includes the very old Gilderoy. The oldest variants of the tune I found were a Gregorian chant, En Gaudeat, 12th Century, a Latin Carol called Congaudeat, 1582 which takes us to Gilderoy then Lucy Broadwood's Lazarus and finally The Star of the County Down.
This is of course a quick summary .


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:14 AM

Thanks for that info, Jim. I did a recording of "Lazarus" from the score in Broadwood and Maitland, and it's interesting to hear the differences in the melodies and harmonic backgrounds between that and the "Star of the County Down".

"Lazarus" is actually quite a melancholy and thoughtful tune, while the "Star" is usually taken at a rollicking pace - two different slants to the same basic melody.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM

Pedantically ~~ the Broadwood & Fuller Maitland book is actually English County [not 'Country] Songs.

Of course it's the Star Of County Down tune ~~ surely Cathal Garvey will have been well aware of that when he wrote his famous song so memorably covered by the great Count John McCormack.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Scabby Douglas
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 07:54 AM

This thread popped up, and I was interested in it... then I was surprised to see that it had been me who originally created it.

Thanks again to all who contributed ...

Really intriguing and useful.

Just what Mudcat does best


Regards



Steven


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Jun 11 - 05:25 PM

In fact similarity of this tune to Star of County Down has oft been noted. Following e.g. from OP of an old thread~~

···Subject: Star of the County Down
From: Paul Stamler - PM
Date: 18 Feb 98 - 02:41 AM
Hey, folks: How many songs do you know that use the tune "Star of the County Down", aka "Dives and Lazarus"?···

There are also frequent refs which can be found by googling the two titles together in the Roud Index e.g. ~~

···Dives and Lazarus (Roud 477; Child 56)
24 Feb 2011 ... The tune is related to the Irish air of Star of the County Down···

and in sleevenotes by Bert Lloyd.

~M~

shall refresh that old thread to show how many other songs share this air.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Darowyn
Date: 21 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM

Although there seem to be plenty of people who know that Dives means 'rich', nobody yet has picked up that Lazarus is also an adjective prior to being taken as a personal name.
"Dives atque lazarus' could be translated as "The Rich Man and the Leper"
I don't know enough Hebrew to know if the same is true of Eleazer, though it would not surprise me, since there is a trace of the same word root there.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: DT Correction: Dives & Lazarus
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 02:58 PM

I don't think your perception is quite correct, Darowyn. It's my understanding that "Lazarus" (Greek "Lazaros") is a Latinization of the Hebrew "Eleazar," which means "God is my help." The beggar Lazarus, who was covered with sores and was quite possibly a leper, later came to be regarded as the patron saint of lepers. The association with leprosy comes from this story, but does not pre-date this story.

Note that the beggar Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is a character in a parable. Lazarus of Bethany (Gospel of John, Chapter 11), brother of Martha and Mary, was the one who was raised from the dead.

-Joe-
I'm working on the lyrics of "Dives and Lazarus," and the lyrics I was given to start with were the ones from the Digital Tradition. To my mind, the DT's coupling of couplets into four-line verses is unfortunate. The usual tune is identified in hymnals as "Kingsfold" (I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say). On most recordings I've listened to, the "B" part of the melody is used on the "answer" verses ("Thou art none of my brothers" and "Rise up, rise up.") The other verses generally get the "A" part of the melody.


DIVERS AND LAZARUS (DT Version)

As it fell out upon one day rich Divers made a feast
And he invited all his friends and gentry of the best
The Lazarus laid him down and down and down at Divers door
"Some meat, some drink, brother Divers, to bestow upon the poor"

"Thou are non of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my door
No meat nor drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor."
Then Lazarus laid him down and down and down at Divers' gate
"Some meat, some drink, brother Divers, for Jesus Christ's sake"

"Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my gate
No meat nor drink will I give thee for Jesus Christ's sake"
The Divers sent out out two merry men to whip poor Lazarus away
They had no power to strike at all but threw their whips away

"Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, That lies begging at my wall
No meat nor drink will I give thee, but with hunger, starve you shall"
Then Divers sent out two hungry dogs to bite him as he lay
They had no power to bite at all, but licked his sores away

As it fell our upon one day, poor Lazarus sickened and died
There came two angels out of Heaven, his soul therein to guide
"Rise up, rise up, brother Lazarus, and come along with me
For there's a place prepared in Heaven to sit on an angel's knee"

As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers sickened and died
There came two serpents out of hell, his soul therein to guide
"Rise up, rise up, brother Divers, and come along with me
For there's a place prepared in Hell, from which thou canst not flee"

Then Divers looked up with his eyes and saw poor Lazarus blessed
"Give me one drop of water," he said, "To quench my flaming thirst
Had I as many years to live, as there are blades of grass
Then I would find some peace secure, and the devil would have no part."

Child #56
@religion
filename[ DIVRSLAZ
TUNE FILE: DIVRSLAZ
CLICK TO PLAY
TUNE FILE: STARDOWN
CLICK TO PLAY
recorded by Roberts and Barrand on Nowell Sing We Clear
SOF


This is what I've come up with for submission to Rise Again. What think ye?

Dives & Lazarus

[AAB] As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers made a feast
And he invited all his friends & gentry of the best
Lazarus laid him down & down, & down at Divers’ door
“Some meat, some drink, Bro. Diverus, do bestow upon the poor”
“Thou art none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my door
No meat nor drink will I give thee, nor bestow upon the poor”

[AB] Then Lazarus laid him down & down, & down at Divers’ gate
“Some meat, some drink, Bro. Diverus, for Jesus Christ, his sake”
“Thou’rt none of my brothers, Lazarus, that lies begging at my gate
No meat nor drink will I give thee for Jesus Christ, his sake”

[AA] Then Divers sent out his merry men to whip poor Lazarus away
They’d not the power to strike one stroke, but flung their whips away
Then Divers sent out his hungry dogs to bite him as he lay
They had no power to bite at all, but licked his sores away

[AB] As it fell out upon one day, poor Lazarus sickened & died
There came 2 angels out of Heaven, his soul therein to guide
“Rise up, rise up, Bro. Lazarus & come along with me
For there's a place prepared in Heaven to sit on an angel's knee”

[AB] As it fell out upon one day, rich Divers sickened & died
There came 2 serpents out of hell, his soul therein to guide
“Rise up, rise up, Bro. Diverus & come with us to see
A dismal place prepared in Hell, from which thou canst not flee”

[AB] Then Divers looked up with his eyes & saw poor Lazarus blessed
“Give me one drop of water, Bro. Lazarus, to quench my flaming thirst
O, was I now but alive again the space of one half hour!
O, that I had my peace again, then the devil should have no power.”

trad. (English, Child ballad #56)
Tune is the same as “Star of the County Down”.
In Oxford Bk of Carols


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Mar 15 - 05:17 AM

If you want to hear a version from a source singer, here is Emily Bishop of Bromsberrow Heath.

http://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C0604X0098XX-0001V0

She sings the song at about 47min 20 sec into this recording. And she pronounces it "Divers" - just to add to the debate!

Tradsinger.


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 27 Mar 15 - 09:59 AM

Kingsfold, which is Vaughan Williams' arrangement of this tune (not Holst's as someone above seemed to be saying) is used as a tune for at least 53 hymns, the two most popular being "O sing a song of Bethlehem" and "I heard the voice of Jesus say". Its use as a hymn tune goes back to 1906, so probably predates "Star of the County Down" (but definitely not Gilderoy, and probably not Maria Marten). Vaughan Williams got it from Broadwood and Maitland, as others have said, but knowing his conventions he would probably have done so after first hearing it sung in a pub in the village of Kingsfold, Sussex. His "Five Variants..." were composed much later.

http://www.hymnary.org/tune/kingsfold_english


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Subject: RE: Help: Dives and Lazarus - or vice versa
From: GUEST,JS
Date: 21 Apr 15 - 07:12 AM

I like and would recommend the improved A & B settings as suggested above (26 Mar). It has tripped me up a time or two in the past and this makes the intent of the lyrics much clearer.


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