BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016

Subject: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: The Pooka
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:06 PM

Any Mudcat commentary??
****************************

From The Irish Times:

McGuinness says united Ireland can be achieved in 14 years
By Anne Lucey and Dan Keenan
03/04/2002

Sinn Féin expects to see a united Ireland within 14 years - in time for the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Rising, Mr Martin McGuinness, the Northern Ireland Education Minister, said yesterday.

There had been "a sea change" of attitude all over Ireland and people were fed up with the partitionist approach, Mr Mc Guinness said.

These were exciting times for the island of Ireland, and people were living through "a very important period of Irish history", he said.

The power-sharing institutions in the North were entering a period of new stability. The Ulster Unionist Party appeared to have stabilised itself within these institutions.

There was now equality and power-sharing in the North between nationalists/republicans and unionists.

"I believe a united Ireland is now inevitable. It is only a matter of time . . . it is eminently achievable," Mr McGuinness said.

Asked to put a time-scale on it, he said people could expect to see a united Ireland "by the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Rising."

However, while the unionist veto had been broken, a united Ireland was not something Sinn Féin wanted to bring about by "galloping unionists into a united Ireland", he said.

"We would hope to convince a sizeable section of unionists that it's in their best interests."

Mr McGuinness was speaking during a constituency visit to Tralee in support of the Sinn Féin candidate in Kerry North, Mr Martin Ferris.

Sinn Féin expected to take three seats in the general election - in Kerry North with Martin Ferris and in Dublin South-West with Sean Crowe as well as retaining Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin's seat in Cavan Monaghan.

The party was also confident there were other constituencies where it could do well.

Pro-Agreement unionists criticised the remarks.

The North Down MP, Lady Hermon, dismissed Mr McGuinness's prediction, saying: "That's just silly."

She added: "He is speaking to his own constituency. I don't think it's a secret that there will be a further act of decommissioning, so I imagine that this sort of talk is always repeated when republicans are being told bad news concerning decommissioning - bad news in their terms, good news in ours."

The North's Minister of the Environment, Mr Dermot Nesbitt, said: "Each generation will decide its own history, as Seamus Mallon once said. Martin McGuinness is living in the realm of Europe of the 1930s when they tried to change borders. I don't think it will happen."

Anti-Belfast Agreement unionists also dismissed Mr McGuinness's comments as a "pipe-dream".

The Ulster Unionist MP for Lagan Valley, Mr Jeffrey Donaldson, said republican aspirations were just not realistic.

"They did not succeed in 1916 in achieving an all-Ireland republic and they will not achieve it 100 years later, either. Mr McGuinness is dreaming a pipe-dream.

"The reality is that the greater number of people in Northern Ireland will not vote for a united Ireland," he said.

The DUP's justice spokesman, Mr Ian Paisley jnr, said the Education Minister was "plainly wrong".

"Now we know why Martin McGuinness failed his 11-plus. His maths is plainly wrong.

"He obviously likes to say these things to infuriate unionists, but statements like this only serve to make a united Ireland even more unthinkable and unworkable," he insisted.

© The Irish Times

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:21 PM

United as Ireland or under the Crown?

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:24 PM

I'd be more inclined to put my money on there being a United Ireland by 2016 than there being a British Crown for it to be united under.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: The Pooka
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:29 PM

Mrrzy - Ah HA! Good point there. :) Hmm, wonder if all-Ireland reunification under the Crown is an option provided for in the Good Friday Agreement? Think they might have omitted that one, somehow....& perhaps not exactly what the esteemed Norn Iron Minister of Education had in mind...but food for thought, eh wot?

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:30 PM

United people or geography?
Those arguements have raged for over 400 years and 12 years is a bit shy of a single generation.
It has been said that those that understand the solution (visa vis "the troubles") don't understand the question.
Them wot say it should heed the the adage "if you are not part of the solution you must be part of the problem"
getting communities to talk to each other would be a step on the road, but right now they are still shouting at each other - maybe more quietly but it ain't no whisper yet.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 04:55 PM

"Those arguments have raged for over 400 years." Not really. There was no suggestion of any kind of partition of Ireland until 1911 so far as I have ever heard. Till then the arguments were about the status of a United Ireland - the options being no change, devolution, or independence.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,celtic cousin
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 05:09 PM

Oh, you can bet there will still be a crown. It's in England's best interest to keep it alive. It works in terms of product identification for the tourist industry at the very least. Anybody that's spent time in both Ulster and the Republic can see the obvious parallel to West-East Germany. The Republic is jumping. Like a young buck at first rut. Completely unencumbered by the crown. Ireland's not perfect, but stringing the entire country with fiber-optic cable some years ago, coupled with a cheap labor force has got every cyber-connected outfit in the world ready to invest seriously. I just hope it doesn't become the Japan of the 21st century and over extend. I've said it before in this forum, but a united Ireland, independent Scotland and Wales are just a matter of time. Saxon imperialism has been dead for more than 50 years, they just don't know it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 05:44 PM

Actually - If it was put to the vote in England, Wales and Scotland I think that the results might frighten the Rev Paisley.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 05:54 PM

That's a vote on the Union with the bit of Ulster or about keeping the Crown? I'm pretty certain the first would be to end it, I'm not sure about the other one. A close run thing I'd suspect.

I somehow don't think the significant thing about the difference the two sides of the border is much to do with the Crown as such, as opposed to the Union.

"The Republic is jumping. Like a young buck at first rut." God forbid! You wouldn't want to live in a place that really was like that - and if you live in Ireland, you don't in a place that's really like that . Lively enough, but there's balance in all things.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 06:18 PM

Kevin - A vote on the Union !!!!!!

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,celtic cousin
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 06:32 PM

Sorry McGrath...maybe a bad choice of words. What I meant was there is a sense of optimism that permeates the Republic. It's a good time to be Irish as the music, dance, art and other forms of culture continue to influence the world at large. It's an exciting, youthful vibe brimming with confidence. Certainly, there's some antiquated ideas regarding marriage/divorce, etc., but you can't deny the excitement when you're there. Spent a month on a bicycle tour of my owm design and came away with that impression. I'm self-employed and several of my clients go to Ireland frequently for their merchandise and express the same observation.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 02 - 07:08 PM

I'd agree about Ireland being a great place, and in a lot of ways a better place today than yesterday. Not in everything, but where is? Whether it'll be a better place tomorrow than it is today, that's another matter. Let's hope it won't be worse anyway in the things that matter.

(But I don't see "antiquated" as a relevant epithet - I can't see where chronology comes into it when deciding whether things are good or bad, whether it's music or customs. If it's bad it's bad however new or old it is, and vice versa.)

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:58 AM

My prediction is that McGuinness will neither be totally right nor totally wrong in his prediction. There'll be by then much more (even official) ties between both 'Irelands' than now but there'll be no political union yet.

So both the Unionists and the Nationalists will be able to say that it goes (has gone) their way. Like they do now when they have conflicting interpretations of the same basic facts. Perhaps that's for a considerable time the only viable solution: Agree on something that everybody else sees as a compromise between the positions but allow the two conflicting parties to sell it as a victory to their respective communities. As long as the disagreement on the interpretation is restricted to words most people in Northern Ireland will be happy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:06 AM

wouldnt it be great if devolution in europe gathered sufficient momentum that a term like "United Ireland" (not to mention "United England" or "United Spain") would become a phrase confined to history books. I'd like to see the word United become a typographical anagrammatic error for "Untied".Home Rule for home!

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Big Tim
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:18 AM

He might be right, he might be wrong. It depends on how the people of NI vote at that time. I hope he's right as I feel I can just about survive until then!

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:38 AM

United Ireland means Ireland, nothing to do with Britain or its royalty, of course.

Bet the British would be glad - any political union with Ireland has always been bad for Britain and the British.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,celtic cousin
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:09 AM

Hey McGrath, Once again, I apologize...bad choice of words. Eventually I'll get it right. Meanwhile, you get a chance to feel smug and superior...enjoy!

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:29 AM

It is coming and there is nothing any hardline loyalist can do about it. For too many years they have spouted about democracy and the rights of the majority (albeit a false one). The tide has turned and a united Ireland is no longer a far off dream. If democracy is allowed to work, and if the will of the Irish people is sanctioned by other countries then it is coming. Whether it comes in 2016 or not is debatable, but it will not be too long after that date, that's for sure. When it does come I hope the present loyalist will embrace the new Ireland and I sincerely hope the nationalist will accept them as fellow countrymen. They also have a role to play in the future of the land.

Whether it will be good for the country or not, we will have to wait and see. As the old song says
" We're on the long road, it may be the wrong road, but we're together now, who cares ?'

I may not see it but I will die happy to know that I have seen it on the horizon and my children almost definitely will experience a united Ireland with all political connections to England broken at last. In my will I have the stipulation that if I am dead when it happens, that, as soon as the Union Jack is lowered from the flag posts at Stormont and other buildings throughout the 6 counties, then a bottle if Irish whiskey is to be poured over my grave. I just hope it doesn't pass through anybody's kidneys first.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 11:57 AM

"a united Ireland with all political connections to England broken at last" - that can't be unless either England or Ireloand pull out of the European Union, which isn't going to happen.

What we can look forward to is a healthier connection, between all the regions of Ireland, and all the other regions of Europe, including the ones in England.

And Celtic Cousin - I'm not that picky and smug. Just a little bit antiquated.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: The Pooka
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:10 PM

Jimmy C - LOL! - Despite the old joke, I'm shure no Mudcatter, at least, would so disrespect yer Last Will & Testament as to filter the Jamieson's so crudely! When the Tricolor floats over all Erin's shores, you'll deserve a proper toast. You better just stick around---to be sure! :)

Now me, I dunno. Big Tim, I do share your hope re the outcome; but your prognosis for witnessing it may be better. At a concert in 1966 I heard Paddy Clancy and the boys salute the 50th Anniversary in song and story. 2016--100th Anniversary; unification?---hmm. Seems far off somehow. Well *today* it does, anyway.

Gentlemen: If come the time, the Fourth Green Field is blooming, and I am dead as dead I well may be---well I ain't gonna try to rhyme it; but somebody send me an
e(ternal)-mail Down Below, OK? So I'll know. I believe they've got HOL. (Hades On Line). Of course I'll pass the news to Paisley right away. Thanks. / Oh and as for a toast, just have a Beamish stout--for me, and for Rebel Cork which, y'see, was right all along. :)

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:22 PM

McGrath, You are right of course, what I meant was that the current connection broken, any future association in a Euopean union would be broad banded for all countries within the union, mostly concerned with tariffs, trade etc. I should have said the present English connection brought about by the Act of Union.

Pooka, I might just start toasting the day of deliverance immediately, just in case I'm not here for the blessed event. Thanks for the suggestion. God I'm easily persuaded.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:22 PM

McGrath, You are right of course, what I meant was that the current connection broken, any future association in a Euopean union would be broad banded for all countries within the union, mostly concerned with tariffs, trade etc. I should have said the present English connection brought about by the Act of Union.

Pooka, I might just start toasting the day of deliverance immediately, just in case I'm not here for the blessed event. Thanks for the suggestion. God I'm easily persuaded.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: The Pooka
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 01:38 PM

Jimmy C, HAHAHAHA! *There* ye go. Speakin' (as I did) of Paddy Clancy (RIP):

When I am dead, all my drinkin's over,
I'll take one drink and I'll drink no more....
In case I mightn't get it done that day,
I will take it now, and I'll drink away,
Rud-lee fol the dee.....
-Jug of Punch

(Bit of thread drift here; but all in a noble cause....)

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:14 PM

McGrath of Harlow
Cromwell!

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:17 PM

Battle of the Boyne
marches
Drumcree
there's 200 years and direct connections, and plenty of arguement.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:28 PM

"United"...ummm...that would sort of imply 'national' elections, wouldn't it? With every 'citizen' having one vote as to who leads this great nation?

yeah, right...and the Jews & Palestinians will 'share' the Holy Land under one government, and North & South Korea will patch things up too...and those Afgan warlords will quietly allow a central government to run the country...and the Ethopians will agree "we're all one blood, and shouldn't fight among ourselves"

Who, ME?..cynical?

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 02:51 PM

Well some of those things might take a bit longer. In time, all in good time.

There've been other hatreds and conflicts as bad as any of those, and they have passed into history and the animosity forgotten; and the descendants quite unable to understand what all the trouble was about.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 03:06 PM

In September 1994, when the IRA declared their first unilateral ceasefire, the conventional wisdom was it wouldn't last a week.

I wouldn't discount Minister McGuinness' suggestion. The fact is, it will likely become one of the main political goals for Sinn Fein in elections in the coming decade, both sides the border.

It will certainly put the other so-called nationalist parties on the spot to come up with a plan for reunification, now won't it?

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:04 PM

Guest, SF is keen to win seats in the Dail so I can't see unification featuring high on its agenda south of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:13 PM

No, it isn't featuring high on the agenda. Yet.

But Minister McGuiness' statments suggest that it might now be be ON the SF agenda both sides the border. McGuiness doesn't make statements like that solely for the benefit of the folks in Ardoyne.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:24 PM

Hi all,

Am I wrong in thinking that Protestants in the Republic are doing pretty well and don't live lower quality lives that their Catholic (and other) neighbors? My world almanac (1995) states that 3% of the Republic's population is Anglican. If their fairing pretty well, one would assume that the 2/3 majority of N.I. should survive fine if they become part of the Republic, shouldn't they?

Sure, the 2/3 majority of N.I. don't really care about that, but it's kind of interesting.

Also - another question. How many people emmigrate from N.I. to the Republic each year. Are people even allowed to?

pax yall and thanks for a wonderful series of pretty positive comments on this topic. It's pretty rare around here.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:42 PM

"How many people emmigrate from N.I. to the Republic each year. Are people even allowed to?"

Any national of any country in the European Union has the right to live and work in any country in the Union.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:54 PM

I don't have the numbers of people who have emigrated from NI to the Republic. But I would suggest many more people have emigrated from NI to the Republic than vice versa in the past 30 years, largely to get away from the Troubles. This will have been particularly true in the past 10 years, when the Republic's economy took off, while the North's economy largely stagnated because of the destruction to infrastructure from rioting, that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:59 AM

Oh what a wonderful thing it would be to see a united Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:32 AM

As for emigration which is something else than just working in another country for a couple of years, the CAIN-website has figures for the '90s.

Roughly 13,000 leave Northern Ireland permanently each year, but more than 90% of them for some other place in the UK (why the CAIN-website calls that 'emigration' I don't know). The remaining less 10% are not specifies any better than 'outside of the UK. But even assuming unrealistically that all of them leave for the Republic of Ireland that is not a big figure.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 08:52 AM

There's an awful lot of green tinted wishful thinking going on here. If the IRA could cause such chaos and remain undefeated (just about) for 30 years how do you think the unionists will react if forced into a shot-gun marriage? I doubt they'll say "Oh so Martin wants a United Ireland, let's just give him one, nice and quietly and peacefully. We've opposed it since 1609 but Sinn Fein has now convinced us, sorry about the slight delay".

If it happens it MUST be by agreement. Besides, the Border is just a state of mind: I crossed it recently and only realised that I was out of Britain and into Ireland when I saw the potholes on the road.

PS Good luck to the first new recruits to the PSNI announced today. They'll need it. I see Sinn Fein are still not happy. Once the police were too Protestant, now they are too middle class!

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:06 AM

As you say, going ahead towards a United Ireland will have to be done carefully, even when there's a majority in favour. On the other hand, as soon as there is a majority in favour, the UK government is not going to hang about before ending the Union with Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:10 AM

May I remind you, Big Tim, that this has nothing to do with "green tinted wishful thinking" as you suggest. In 1994, none of the unionists would recognize (or even shake the hands of) the Sinn Fein leadership.

In less than a decade, they are now sharing power with them. And everyone's criticism was "the Unionists will never allow it".

But in a true democracy, it isn't up to "the Unionists" it is up to the people who vote. THAT is the major change in the North. Democratic grassroots change that the Unionists have been pretty powerless to stop. And still are.

It isn't up to the Unionist politicians and their UK cronies to decide whether or not the North will cede, and unite with the Republic. It is up to the people who vote.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:02 PM

To the guest who said McGuiness doesn't make statements like that solely for the benefit of the folks in Ardoyne, I think you'll find that he sometimes does. His remarks on this occasion were entirely to appease his own potential supporters, with an eye to a forthcoming statement on further decommissioning. (I make no criticism of him for doing that.)

Big Tim - first class points. My only argument with your post is about those potholes! They still signal when you've crossed the border, but now it's the other way round. Cash has been poured into the republic's infrastructure while the UK has ben underinvesting (against European norms) for 30 years. If you ride a motorbike, believe me, the difference is noticeable.

Blackcatter, any regime can afford to be relaxed about a minority of three per cent. The minority in the north (catholics) started out at more than 30 per cent and has been rising ever since. Put yourself in the protestant mindset, and that's quite a threat. And history has shown us how the protestants reacted to that perceived threat.

Equally if you remove the border, Ireland suddenly has a protestant minority of nearly one in four, and a significant element of that minority would be coming into the equation recklessly belligerent from the outset.

The republic's economy is rocking. Why would they want to spoil it with all the mayhem of private armies and intransigent Orangeism that comes with the north? That's why SF will not be giving high priority to a united Ireland in their campaigning south of the border.

My feeling is that the less it's sought, the more likely reunification will be. And I certainly don't rule it out by 2016. But if it doesn't happen, it's no big deal. My real dream is that petty nationalism - British, American, Irish and the rest - will be a thing of the past by then.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:11 PM

I for one have no objection to a "United Ireland" on one condition.

Ireland has to keep the bloody Orangemen too!

(Paisley in the Dail, now *THAT* I would pay money to see).

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:36 PM

There's a distinction between maintaining the Union, and a United Ireland. Once there ceases to be a majority in Northern Ireland in favour of staying in the Union, the rest of the UK is free to exclude Northern Ireland. Nothing can stop that - it's not possible to bomb yourself into union.

On the other hand a sizeable minority opposed to going into a United Ireland would be able to make life very difficult.

I envisage that some kind of federal structure is most likely, as the only hope for squaring the circle.

Ian Paisley would go down great in the Dail. If he could bring himself to enter it. He'd be getting on a bit by 2016 though.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:49 PM

Ian Paisley is a very old man, who is now an isolated, marginalized politician with a very tiny constituency.

And like I said, regardless of the conventional West Brit wisdom being put forth by some Irish posters, I don't see how the Northern Unionists or the UK Tories and Unionists, can stop reunification. As soon as Sinn Fein gets it on the political agenda--and they will do so non-violently--it will get addressed by nationalist politicians both sides the border.

And that will be a damn lot more entertaining than more loyalist foaming at the mouth. Been there, seen that. It will be much more interesting to watch self-proclaimed Irish nationalist politicians explain why they are against a united republic of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 01:53 PM

Typical biased rubbish from Big Dim, potholes on the road when he crossed the border!, Tim were you heading North?. The Republic is light years ahead of the SICK SIX, the Unionist population here are green with envy at the Republics economic miracle, I know I live here. When you visited the Republic you must have seen the advances,Surely you can`t be that twisted?. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:21 PM

Calm down Ard: we want you to live to see re-unification. The Republic, of which I'm a citzen, has of course done great in terms of economic and social advancement. The standard of living is now equal that in Britain. The potholes reference was just me being, typically, a bit rogueish!

Some interesting stats from David McKittrick's "Making Sense of the Troubles" (2000), unionist-nationalist voting

1921 NI Parliament, U - 66.9% of total, N - 32.3% 1982 Assembly Elections, U - 58.4%, N - 31.6% 1989 Local Elections, U - 54.6%, N - 34.4% 1999 European Elections, U - 52.3%, N - 45.4

Even allowing for a higher nationalist turnout in 1999 if this trend continues Martin, who is incidentally a distant cousin of mine, will be celebrating before 2016. What do the psepologists think?

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:28 PM

Sadly Paisley's influence, though in decline, is still considerable, guest. I wish it were not so (or that his extraordinary gifts had been channelled into some less destructive cause), but it is. And your own cause still has some way to go when you can't even put your name to your own arguments.

As for Irish nationalist politicians, they know there are no votes in the diaspora, and will have not the slightest difficulty saying whatever their constituents want to hear.

Peter Kirker (aka Fionn)

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Big Tim
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 02:47 PM

How can anyone say that Paisley's influence is in decline. The DUP has continually increased its share of the unionist vote, almost putting Trimble out at the last General Election, and causing him to have to back track on conciliation, for example, his recent statement that the Republic is "sectarian".

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: PeteBoom
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:03 PM

Nah - yer all wrong. The name of the United Republic will be "Federal Republic of Europe", probably 2020 or so...

Don't think so? Anyone else old enough to remember when the EU was the EEC and they were making all kinds of promises to not disrupt the member nation's internal workings?

Then BOTH sides can scream about being sold out and find something in common.

Pete

Subject: Lyr Add: GALAXY SONG (Eric Idle & John Du Prez)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 03:21 PM

THE COSMIC SONG

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard or tough,
And people are stupid, obnoxious or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite enough,

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour.
It's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
'Round the sun that is the source of all our power.
Now the sun, and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day,
In the outer spiral arm, at fourteen thousand miles an hour,
Of a galaxy we call the Milky Way.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars;
It's a hundred thousand light-years side to side;
It bulges in the middle sixteen thousand light-years thick,
But out by us it's just three thousand light-years wide.
We're thirty thousand light-years from Galactic Central Point,
We go 'round every two hundred million years;
And our galaxy itself is one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

Our universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
In all of the directions it can whiz;
As fast as it can go, that's the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!

(line breaks added by a Joeclone)

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Big Tim
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:19 AM

The EU does seem to be juggernauting in that direction. A world government may even be down the line, way down the line. However it will make no difference to the Little Irelanders.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 08:57 AM

The question of a united Ireland also won't have much to do with Irish nationalism either, IMO. It will, rather, have to do with assimilation into the EU, and with eliminating duplicate bureaucracies interfering with one another's work.

It will be practical matters, not nationalism, which will result in the reunification--just as it has been practical matters, not nationalism or unionism.

As to Paisley's and the DUP's influence, I stand by what I said. He and his party have influence in one tiny part of Europe, and they are irrelevant every place else. Totally irrelevant.

On the other hand, with Sinn Fein and progressives like the Greens, a handful of Labour party members, etc. forcing the political agenda more towards integration with Europe and the US, how relevant does British unionism remain? Answer: not very. Not in Ireland, not in Britain, and certainly not in Europe and the international community, where Paisley, the DUP and British unionism is seen as the dying dinosaur it is.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 08:59 AM

Sorry--second paragraph above should have ended with "just as it has been practical matters, not nationalism or unionism, which has resulted in the interim power sharing arrangement the north has now."

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 02:42 PM

Big Tim, Why do you keep referring to the fact that you are a distant cousin of Martin ?, what significance has this?, I knew a man who was a distant cousin of Josef Locke and he couldn`t sing a note.Ard Mhacha

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Big Tim
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 06:14 AM

Sad Sacka: try sticking to the facts, difficult though it may be for you. In about a year on Mudcat I've made about 700 comments and mentioned my family's distant relationship to that of Martin McGuinness exactly twice, 0.0028% of the time. If that's your idea of "keep referring" it shows just how tenuous indeed is your grip on reality.

You must be a great singer to be able to say Joseph Locke "couldn't sing a note". Incidentally, is it OK to mention this? my family is also distantly related to the family of Joseph Locke, real name Joe McLaughlin, of Derry. Sadly I am not related to Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 07:26 AM

Sure I knew oul Joe Mclaughlin ex RUC man was Josef Locke. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 01:11 PM

Now if he'd said Joseph Locke couldn't it was clearly the distant relative of Joseph Locke who was said not to be able to sing a note.

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 10:53 PM

United to suit the Irish people, or united to suit McGuinness and his murderous associates?

Subject: RE: BS: McGuinness: united Ireland by 2016
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 09:36 AM

The IRA has just announced it's second round of decommissioning arms, confirmed by de Chastelain's decommissioning body, and welcomed by Unionist David Trimble and both governments.

I think the time for invoking the word "murderous" in association with Sinn Fein is past. If the rest of the world can accept the war in the North is over, that is good enough for me.

Sinn Fein, the IRA, and the peace process don't need the approval of loyalist and unionist facsists to succeed. Sinn Fein isn't the politically isolated party now, it is the DUP and the loyalist paramilitaries refusing to adhere to the ceasefire, and decommission their weapons.

With marching season being upon us again, we'll see if the DUP/loyalist paramilitaries have learned anything from their recent fiasco bombing and harrassing 6 year old girls and their parents walking to school. They were condemned by the entire world.

How anyone can claim that the IRA is still the villan here, I'll never know. The world sees clearly now who the real terrorists are in the north, and they aren't pointing a finger at Martin McGuiness anymore. That tired old game is only played by loser loyalist fanatics.