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Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues

DigiTrad:
LOCKE HOSPITAL
ST. JAMES HOSPITAL
ST. JAMES INFIRMARY
THE UNFORTUNATE RAKE


Related threads:
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(origins) Tune Req: St. James Infirmary Blues (25)
Help: The Unfortunate Rake (116)
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Lyr/Chords Req: St. James Infirmary (26)
Lyr Add: The Unfortunate Lad (#350 / Rake's Lamen (8)
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Chords Req: St. James Infirmary (6)
Lyr Add: St. Jude's Infirmary (Parody for Spaw) (15)
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Tune Req: St. James Infirmary (7)


Brian Peters 18 Nov 17 - 12:24 PM
meself 18 Nov 17 - 02:56 PM
Lighter 18 Nov 17 - 03:50 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Nov 17 - 04:03 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Nov 17 - 05:17 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 17 - 03:13 AM
Brian Peters 19 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Karen 19 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Karen 19 Nov 17 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM
Brian Peters 19 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM
Lighter 19 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Nov 17 - 10:42 AM
Brian Peters 19 Nov 17 - 10:45 AM
Lighter 19 Nov 17 - 01:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 19 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM
Lighter 19 Nov 17 - 02:00 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Nov 17 - 02:29 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 17 - 04:26 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 17 - 04:48 AM
Brian Peters 20 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Nov 17 - 05:26 AM
Brian Peters 20 Nov 17 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Brian 20 Nov 17 - 08:13 AM
GUEST,Karen 20 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM
Brian Peters 20 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Nov 17 - 09:11 AM
Lighter 20 Nov 17 - 09:35 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM
Brian Peters 20 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Nov 17 - 11:34 AM
Lighter 20 Nov 17 - 03:38 PM
Brian Peters 21 Nov 17 - 05:30 AM
Lighter 21 Nov 17 - 08:23 AM
Lighter 21 Nov 17 - 08:24 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Nov 17 - 11:15 AM
Lighter 21 Nov 17 - 11:36 AM
Lighter 21 Nov 17 - 11:49 AM
Brian Peters 21 Nov 17 - 12:08 PM
Brian Peters 21 Nov 17 - 12:20 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Nov 17 - 01:25 PM
Lighter 21 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM
meself 21 Nov 17 - 02:31 PM
Lighter 21 Nov 17 - 02:53 PM
Richard Mellish 21 Nov 17 - 05:20 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Nov 17 - 07:04 PM
GUEST,Karen 21 Nov 17 - 08:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 12:24 PM

"Great work, Brian. That would have taken me a week."

Thanks. I did get up early, and I was on a bit of a mission...


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 02:56 PM

Brian Peters: I agree with your general point - i.e., that 'St. James' likely had a British origin - but I'd quibble with your statement that "There were well established sea routes across the Atlantic to both North American locations, but it's hard to imagine there was much traffic between the Appalachians and the Canadian Maritimes (1300 miles apart) in the 1910s." There was all kinds of trade and sea-travel all along the east coast of North America (incidentally, a busy trade between Nova Scotia and the Caribbean); all it would take is one singer from the Maritimes meeting one singer from the Appalachians for a song to be passed along (I'll spare you the obligatory colourful description of the imagined meeting ...). Anomalous, but possible.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:50 PM

But multiply the anomaly by the equally long odds that a collector (and a published collector at that) would have encountered one of the very, very few NS singers whose version stemmed from the Appalachians.

The simpler explanation (thus the one to be provisionally preferred) is that the NS version came ultimately from Britain or Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:03 PM

Karen,
You might find it useful to look at the versions of Roud 2 on the Full English search on the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library site at EFDSS, particularly the 4 or so entries that show the info on 'The Unfortunate Rake' and how it somehow got attached to 'The Unfortunate Lad' Kidson noted down the version from Kate Thompson in 1892. At one point 'Rake' tune from Kerr's Merry Melodies is displayed above Kate Thompson's tune. I can't read music so can't comment on any similarities. I can't find any other British versions pre 1900 that mention St James's. As others have stated just as there are lots of Lock Hospitals there are lots of St James's (One here in Yorkshire at Leeds) It's futile trying to pinpoint which one it might refer to.

Was St James by any chance the patron saint of STDs? Baring-Gould would have known.

BTW there is a particularly graphic/gory Sc. version in Greig-Duncan.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 05:17 PM

Was St James by any chance the patron saint of STDs?

Subscriber Trunk Dialling?
Unlikely! he was a fisherman. They use the net to keep in touch.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:13 AM

James the Greater was the patron Saint of arthritis (gawd bless 'im) and other things such as rheumatism; apothecaries; blacksmiths; druggists; equestrians; furriers; horsemen; knights; laborers; pharmacists; pilgrims; rheumatoid sufferers; riders; soldiers; tanners; veterinarians.
Take your pick
Saints Fiacre, George, Saturninus of Toulouse and Symphorian of Autun were all patron Saints of sexually transmitted diseases (not bad for an atheist, if I say so myself!!)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM

"There was all kinds of trade and sea-travel all along the east coast of North America (incidentally, a busy trade between Nova Scotia and the Caribbean); all it would take is one singer from the Maritimes meeting one singer from the Appalachians for a song to be passed along (I'll spare you the obligatory colourful description of the imagined meeting ...)."

Fair point, 'meself' (I suspected someone here would be more knowledgable than me), but like Lighter I feel the odds are long.

(a) Sharp collected the song over 400 miles from the coast, in pretty remote mountain backcountry.

(b) He collected it only once (compared with 30+ examples for many other British ballads that are older and would have been brought over in the early mass migration), so it seems to have been relatively rare.

(c) I should more precisely have said "well-established migratory routes across the Atlantic" to both Virginia and Nova Scotia, which would represent a more plausible avenue for song transmission than a chance meeting between singers at sea or in port.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

Steve Gardham

Good question about who St James was. I had only got as far as finding out there was more than one. Not big on saints, myself.

Brian Peters

You might be interested to get hold of Robert Harwood's book: he covers the ground you went over, though well done on your own research; it is how I knew about the Fess Williams version and so on. It is also how I know that the tune and similar songs were around before Primrose put in his copyright of his version, and that there was a trial about the ownership to the words St James Infirmary Blues. It appears to have been played by a number of bands criss-crossing the continent. There are musical similarities with a song called 'Dying Crapshooter's Blues' attributed to Porter Grainger and recorded by several artists in the 20s and apparently covered by Blind Willie McTell eg using death marches/type music for comic effect. You can get versions of this in itunes and spotify.
I like the Fess Williams version and also the Martha Copeland, especially the musical jokes eg the Charleston bit.

Re Cecil Sharp

He collected the version with St James in the words in Dewey, within walking distance of a railway station, which is how he got there himself. On the same trip, he collected a version of Loredo/Cowboy's lament in the Appalachians, and this seems to me proof that this area was not cut off musically from the rest of the country, however far inland it may have been.

You can read his diaries for the year here:

https://www.vwml.org/browse/browse-collections-sharp-diaries/browse-sharpdiary1918#recordnumber=2

The original notes for the words are online, but I can't find the link just now. It was Maud Karpeles who took these down: Sharp was the one who took down the music.

On Lenihan

Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)


Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)

The social occasions on which dancing and singing took place were weddings, American wakes, parties for returned emigrants in the summer or at Christmas.

I believe I was criticised for suggesting that County Clare was not a musically isolated community, but I made this suggestion on the basis of publicly available information, some of it directly related to the person in question.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

"Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)"
Sigh......!!!
I defy you to find a single song he learned from an American singer in repertoire
This is arrogance in the extreme Karen
I knew Tom for over twenty years - I recorded him at length talking about his songs, where he got them and how he regarded them
You were not criticised for claiming Clare was not a musically isolated community - it was far from that
The repertoire here was full of songs from Britain which were absorbed into the local oral tradition
You won't find John Henry or Big Rock Candy Mountain or Grand Coulee Dam or Wreck of the Old 97.....
You are virtually calling me a liar to make an academic point
Tom did not learn or sing St James' Infirmary - he learned St James's Hospital which is one of the oral manifestations of 'The Unfortunate Rake'
I ask again - does Tom's rendition sound anything like an American song?   
This is a repeat performance of the John Reilly campaign that set out to claim that a non-literate Traveller must have learned The Maid and The Palmer from print.
It's little wonder that academics have such a bad press.
If you think I am being insulting, I suggest you work out how insulting contradicting 20 years research work is
Jay-sus!
"old ballads derived from European tradition"
I don't know how conversant you are with the oral tradition but many of our Child ballads can be traced back to Scandinavian and other Europesn sources - it doesn't mean their singers learned them from a visiting Canto-Hondo singer
Give us a break!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:09 AM

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, however aggressively it is presented.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

"Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, however aggressively it is presented."
And researched evidence is far more reliable Karen - you really should know that
You are taking a single statement totally out of context, never having met any of the people involved
I ask again - does Tom sound as if he is singing an American song?
Perhaps you can find other songs he larned from 'folk magazines or "the radio"
This becomes tiresome - if not more than a little bizarre
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

"Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, however aggressively it is presented."
And researched evidence is far more reliable Karen - you really should know that
You are taking a single statement totally out of context, never having met any of the people involved
I ask again - does Tom sound as if he is singing an American song?
Perhaps you can find other songs he larned from 'folk magazines or "the radio"
This becomes tiresome - if not more than a little bizarre
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM

"Re Cecil Sharp
He collected the version with St James in the words in Dewey, within walking distance of a railway station, which is how he got there himself.
You can read his diaries for the year here..."


Having spent the last four years researching Cecil Sharp's trips into the mountains, (the results are published in the current Folk Music Journal), I'm well acquainted with his diaries, the kind of communities he visited and the songs he collected. One of my principal arguments is that he and Maud Karpeles noted down a large number of songs that were not 200-year-old British ballads that had come over with the original migrants, so I do realise that the communities were not completely cut off from the outside.

"Walking distance of a railway station" actually turns out to be at least five miles away, if you read Sharp's diary entry for June 4, 1918, and do a few sums. He thought nothing of walking fifteen miles or more in pursuit of singers.

For your interest, there are several photos taken by Sharp of Laura Virginia Donald on the VWML Library website at #AC38.

However, the fact that Mrs Donald lived out in the woods five miles from a railway station isn't really relevant to the balance of probability regarding song transmission to or from Nova Scotia. The chances are tiny compared with the likelihood of the song having arrived independently from the British Isles.

Karen, although you have got a really interesting discussion going here, and although I have much sympathy for your argument about the rather reckless approach of sixties folk revivalists to evidence-based research, you seem to have got the cart before the horse. Barry's theory for Irish origins, or Lloyd's on the 'Unfortunate Rake' title or the significance of St. James Hospital, may well be based on incomplete or flimsy evidence, and deserve to be interrogated. However, you seem to be taking the position that everything they said must therefore be untrue, and that evidence that does support those theories must be dismissed - hence the repeated and rather quixotic attempts to airbrush away the pre-1920 'St James' variants of Roud 2, and to disqualify Tom Lenihan's version of the song.

On the subject of TL, you've posted the reference to American migration from his community more than once, as if this proves he got songs from there (in direct opposition to Jim Carroll's first-hand evidence), but that misses the point that his variant of Roud 2 is textually rather unique. If by some remote chance his sister had sent him the record of Armstrong singing 'St James Infirmary' it's highly unlikely he would even have recognized it as a version of the song he knew, never mind incorporating the place name. If that's not what you're suggesting I apologize for misunderstanding you, but if not, what are you trying to prove about the Lenihan version?

When I joined this discussion I was well aware of the longstanding theory that 'Unfortunate Lad' had evolved into 'St James Infirmary', 'Streets of Laredo', etc, etc, but also aware that modern scholars had questioned it. Having done a little digging myself, I've become more convinced that 'St James' is indeed part of the British Isles tradition of the song, even though no-one seems to have found anything pre-20th century as yet.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM

I believe that a mountaineer of 1910 would likely have considered the five miles to the railway station walking distance.

But since people had horses and wagons, the question is moot.

More importantly, I suggest that the presence of railway stations in Appalachia would be more conducive to importing songs (like "The Streets of Laredo" and "The Unfortunate Lad/Girl" *into* the mountains than exporting them to places like Nova Scotia.

Not to mention that there was a far greater cultural affinity between the Southern Appalachians and the cattle country of Texas and the Chisholm Trail, than between the Appalachians and Nova Scotia. Another side issue, to be sure, but of interest.

The most interesting questions raised in this thread (and others) can probably never be answered with absolute certainty. All we can do is look at the evidence and draw conclusions that seem the most probable.
In some cases probability itself may be a matter of opinion.

The alternative is to favor explanations that, while they may be very unlikely, appeal to our romantic or iconoclastic sensibilities.

To each his own.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:42 AM

Jon,
At one end of a spectrum you have incontrovertible facts and opposed to this are fictions and falsehoods with many types of opinions in the middle. Also somewhere in the middle are possibles and probables, and for me, where the first of these are not present possibles and probables can become extremely important but we need to be clear which is which.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:45 AM

I've just checked back on the MacKenzie (1909?) version from Nova Scotia. There are several differences from Sharp / Donald: the victim is female, not male; she asks her mother, not her father, to 'pity my case'; there's an additional verse beginning 'once on the street I used to look handsome'.

There are sufficient similarities to suggest the two variants arose from the same basic stock, but probably at more than one degree of separation. This again militates against transmission between Virginia and Nova Scotia. It also rather argues against another possibility (I'm surprised this one hasn't been advanced yet) that the song was included in some 19th Century songbook (like 'Forget-me-Not', though it doesn't seem to be in there), which was very probably a source for a few of the songs Sharp collected.

Lighter, you're probably right, but I'm still digging.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:34 PM

Steve, I agree completely.

By "To each his own" I'm suggesting ironically (gotta stop that!) that uncritical people will jump to conclusions, or cherry-pick evidence that supports their prior beliefs, and there's not much anyone can do except point it out.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

what exactly are the consequences of this bloke ever having come across an American version of the Unfortunate Rake.

Not knowing a lot about music. I never really understood about how the Streets of Laredo related in any way to St James's Infirmary. They seem on the surface to be unrelated. I sing both songs. The melodies and the words seem different to me.

I think all singers are subject to their environment. Despite there being large numbers of people from the Indian sub continent and middle Eastern folk living in England. So far their ideas haven't filtered into my music. But I suppose it might in future. Singers can't really control the song. Even the most conservative of artforms undergoes changes. It is inevitable.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:00 PM

Brian, Karen, and Steve, are you familiar with the comprehensive collation of cowboy versions in Thorp, Fife, and Fife's "Songs of the Cowboys" (1966)?

Included is a categorization of all the locales the song mentions.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:29 PM

I have Thorp and 2 editions of Fife. I have also done my own studies of all the versions at my disposal not particularly looking at the named locations as I know how fickle these can be in transmission. Looking back at my study apart from adding a few obscure versions I can't really add substantially to the discussions here.

My study is nowhere near as comprehensive as those carried out by Richie, being mainly concerned with similar versions and possible evolutions, but like Richie I do try to categorise different oecotypes using comparisons stanza by stanza and picking out obvious characteristics such as the gender of the main character.
He's about ready to start on a new song family and I could ask him to have a go at this one, but I doubt he'll be able to add any opinions other than those already expressed. He is, however very thorough and if there are any 'St James's' versions earlier than 1900 he's your man to find them.

The misleading title 'The Unfortunate Rake' introduced by Kidson/Broadwood and perpetrated by the likes of Bert Lloyd doesn't seem to be relevant here unless the two tunes can be seen to be related.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:26 AM

This entire discussion seems to be based on the idea that, if it hasn't been collected it has never existed.
A widespread and detailed knowledge of our song traditions does not predate the beginning of the twentieth century when field research began in earnest and the researchers insisted that they were dealing with a long term tradition that was on its last legs.
A folk song sung by 'shepherds' was reported as early as 1549, which indicates an oral tradition at least as early as that - that song was still in the oral tradition and being collected into the tatter half of the twentieth century
Hardly surprising that a single location can't be traced.
Our knowledge of the tradition represents a tiny blip of a long-standing and wide-ranging cultural activity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:48 AM

I agree Jim - its the fragmentary nature of our knowledge and insights that, if anything give a mythic power to folksong.

It poses many questions in particular the role of the singer in creating the song. It is easy nowadays to see footage of singers. But even someone as recent and even recorded people like Robert Johnson - we know very little - we can only guess at his techniques and the roots from which he distilled his art.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM

"what exactly are the consequences of this bloke ever having come across an American version of the Unfortunate Rake"

Hi Al,
Perhaps this comment is a timely reminder that when a bunch of specialists get to discussing fine details, then the overall picture may be obscured. I still like to think of Mudcat as a resource for the curious, so, to briefly answer your question:

It's been accepted wisdom for many years in the folk revival that an English song called 'The Unfortunate Rake' was the precursor of 'St James Infirmary' partly because of the funeral arrangements with six pall bearers etc, but also because there were thought to be versions of the English song set in 'St James' Hospital'.

More recently, some researchers like Karen here have disputed this, on the grounds that no English versions of the song actually mention 'St James Hospital', a line that seems to been interpolated into the song by Bert Lloyd, from an Appalachian version.

There is a single Irish version (Tom Lenihan's) that does include the 'St James' line. But this was collected after the Louis Armstrong recording had become a hit, so the possibility arises that 'St James' went into the Irish version from America, not the other way round. There are plenty of examples of traditional singers being influenced by commercial recordings, but in this case there are strong reasons (as Jim and I have explained) to believe otherwise.

I don't know whether or not this will convince you that it's a matter of great import when the rest of the world is falling apart around our ears, but to those of us interested in this kind of stuff it certainly is.

"Not knowing a lot about music. I never really understood about how the Streets of Laredo related in any way to St James's Infirmary."

In many ways you'd regard them as different songs, but the basic plot is that someone has died and a funeral is being arranged. Then compare:

Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin,
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall

with:

Get six gamblers to carry my coffin
Six chorus girls to sing me a song

Too close to be coincidental, I would think. Then you have less well-known versions of the cowboy song that include the line: 'As I passed by Tom Sherman's bar room', which chimes with 'old Joe's bar-room'.

Just because it's a great recording, here's Tom Sherman's bar-room.

And, again because it's a wonderful performance that deserves its own blue clicky, here's Iron Head Baker's version, which includes verses that look like they belong to English, cowboy and jazz versions.

It's not easy to determine the exact sequence of events, but the three songs are very clearly entangled.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:26 AM

"It poses many questions in particular the role of the singer in creating the song"
Plenty of evidence that they did create songs
Dig out the BBC recording of the Hebridean singers creating a song on the spot in praise of Alan Lomax's sexual attributes
We have a description of four men standing at the crossroads of the next village from here, tossing verses at each other until they's made a seven verse song
Another of a group of young, non-literate Travellers sitting on a grassy bank outside a church making a long song about how the wedding that was taking place would turn out

penultimate verse
"Oh the first year were were married was lovely
And the second we couldn't agree
An the third one she put on the trousers
And then made a wreck out of me"

That's why it is nonsense to suggest that singers had to rely on print for their songs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 07:24 AM

"Brian, Karen, and Steve, are you familiar with the comprehensive collation of cowboy versions in Thorp, Fife, and Fife's "Songs of the Cowboys" (1966)?"

No. I did manage to download Thorp's earlier book free, but I can only see the one you're talking about available from US sellers where there would be a shipping issue. I should definitely like to see it, though. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:13 AM

Thank you for this excellent summary.

My own opinion is a) that nobody really knows, and that nobody will ever know 'the whole truth', b) all we can do is make inferences, some of which some people may find persuasive, some not and also, c) without wishing to call anybody a 'liar' (Harwood disagrees that Blind Willie McTell wrote "the dying crapshooter's blues" even though McTell claimed that he did, but does not call him a liar), there is reason to be a tad sceptical about what one reads in early journals, and even in the methods and findings about people collecting in the field.   

I would add that there is also some room for questioning whether there was ever a version of these lyrics specifically entitled by their singers 'The Unfortunate Rake'. The early references to this title are references to what I have learned on this very helpful thread thread may be more than one 'air', or melody, of this name, which also has a number of other names, which seems to have been a dance tune at some point, and whose origin is also obscure. The idea that the words/a version/variant (is there a technical difference in folkloric theory between a version and a variant) of this air at some point were joined up with the song whose 19th century title was mostly The Unfortunate Lad is, I humbly suggest, an inference, and most probably one entrenched in people's minds as a result of the work of A L Lloyd. But one reason for my coming on this thread was to see if anybody could provide me with, say, evidence from the 19th century of the actual use of those words with that title. I hope I have not muddled this up: this is how I understand it.

By the way, I have nothing against "Bert" Lloyd. I never met him, but it is said in literature I have found that he was likeable. He obviously managed to get on good enough terms with the English Folk Dance and Song Society. But some of his 'politics' strike one as almost wilfully naive with the wisdom of hindsight. I am thinking of a passage from his book on English Folk Song, a book which demonstrates to me a lack of ability to keep to the topic as opposed to going off at tangents, and does not feel to me look remotely 'academic'. Reading it after the horrors of the break up of the former Yugoslavia, not to mention the demise of British coal mining, I found this:

Things have changed a bit in the last few years. In some parts of Europe, and particularly in the folkloristically rich South-east the general democratic trend has set a different pattern in what Americans like to call the 'collector-informant context'. A Balkan collective farm peasant is no longer daunted by the man in collar and tie, any more than a Durham miner by the fellow from the BBC. The increase of working class self confidence offers new and more favourable conditions for discovering the full physiology of musical folklore, blood, flesh and wounds, and not merely its anatomy."

I hadn't seen Thorp Fife and Fife. Thanks for the reference. On cowboy versions, Harwood gives the name of a man who claimed to have copyrighted it in the 19th century: cannot just recall it now. That's another story from Harwood. Definitely a good read. Actually, I find him more readable than Lloyd.

Have a nice day, everybody.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

Tarn it!

I got muddled up and put the wrong name in the 'From' box, when I was just thanking Brian for his summary of where we are at.

Very sorry for any misunderstandings that may follow.

The man who is said to have copyrighted cowboy's lament was Frank Maynard.

:0


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

Thank you, Karen.

"I would add that there is also some room for questioning whether there was ever a version of these lyrics specifically entitled by their singers 'The Unfortunate Rake'. "

As far as I can see, most traditional singers titled their songs by first line or chorus. It was the collectors who allocated titles according to Child's nomenclature or their own invention, and tried to stick to them to identify variants as members of a family, rather as Steve Roud's numbering system has done for us more recently (and a lot more reliably).

For instance, Cecil Sharp insisted on calling Appalachian examples of Roud 15 'Cruel Ship's Carpenter' when I suspect the locals called it 'Pretty Polly'. But that did at least mean he placed it in the same bracket as the English song of that name.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM

Thankyou Brian. That's very good of you to explain that.

When I said - what are the consequences, I don't mean the consequences for mankind.

I meant what are the consequences for us as people who sing these songs...

there are a lot of songs about funerals, Brian. Finnegans Wake, Barbara Allen, Teenage Cremation..... If I add a verse about six pall bearers to these songs do they become related to The Streets of Laredo and St James's Infirmary?

Talking of Hamish Imlach - I wonder if you remember how he used to do Black is the Colour - like a blues song, really swinging that Aminor chord. always sounded odd to me.

if we had the all important DNA tests and St James's infirmary is proved to be Irish. What are the consequences - shall we add a verse about hurling, drop a few begorrahs into the lyrics....?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:11 AM

There are 2 ways of looking at umbrella titles from a researcher's point. They can get in the way of accuracy if misused as seems to be the case with 'The Unfortunate Rake'. However, in everyday discussion
it would be impractical if not impossible to keep referring to Child 295B or Laws P27a or Roud 27798 or ODNR 364, so to counter this I use my own Master Title index alongside these 4 systems. This is based upon the most frequently used published title. When I'm studying a particular ballad and comparing all of the versions, if a particular version comes without the singer's title and only gives an umbrella title I leave it blank to avoid inaccuracy.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:35 AM

Posted to an earlier thread, but may be of interest here:

The U.S. law journal Northeastern Reporter (1932, Vol. 181, p. 58) acknowledges a 1930 copyright suit concerning "St. James Infirmary."

The court decision notes: "In March, 1929, the plaintiffs revived the old song under the title 'St. James' Infirmary.' *The infirmary heretofore unidentified was given a name* [my emphasis - L]. They put forward an advertising and publicity campaign to sell the old composition under the new name."

The song in question was credited to "Joe Primrose" (actually Irving Mills) of Gotham Music Service. A year later a rival publisher put out a similar song with the same title. Hence the lawsuit.

And from further notes I've made:

Harwood asserts that cowboy Francis Henry Maynard "copyrighted" the cowboy version in 1876. While supporting Maynard's claim, his biography by Jim Hoy, Cowboy's Lament (2010), makes no mention of a copyright, which would seem highly improbable anyway.

Maynard published a booklet of his verse titled "Rhymes of the Range and Trail" (1911) which included the following:


THE DYING COWBOY

As I rode down by Tom Sherman's bar-room,
Tom Sherman's bar-room so early one day,
There I espied a handsome young ranger
All wrapped in white linen, as cold as the clay.
"I see by your outfit that you are a ranger,"
The words that he said as I went riding by,
"Come sit down beside me, and hear my sad story,
I'm shot through the breast and I know I must die.

Chorus:
Then muffle the drums and play the dead marches;
Play the dead marches as I'm carried along;
Take me to the church-yard and lay the sod o'er me,
I'm a young ranger and I know I've done wrong.

"Go bear a message to my grey-haired mother
Go break the news to gently to my sister so dear,
But never a word of this place do you mention,
As they gather around you my story to hear.
Then there is another as dear as a sister,
Who will bitterly weep when she knows I am gone,
But another more worthy may win her affection,
For I'm a young ranger ? I know I've done wrong."

Chorus

"Once in my saddle I used to be dashing;
Once in my saddle, I used to be brave;
But I first took to gambling, from that to drinking,
And now in my prime, I must go to my grave.
Go gather around you a crowd of gay rangers,
Go tell them the tale of their comrade's sad fate,
Tell each and all to take timely warning,
And leave their wild ways before it's too late."

Chorus

"Go, now, and bring me a cup of cold water,
To bathe my flushed temples," the poor fellow said.
But ere I returned, the spirit had left him,
Had gone to is Giver ? the ranger was dead.
So we muffled the drums and played the dead marches,
We bitterly wept as we bore him along,
For we all loved the ranger, so brave and so handsome,
We all loved our comrade, although he'd done wrong.


Maynard told a journalist in 1924:

"During the winter of 1876 I was working for a Grimes outfit which had started north with a trail herd [from Texas]...We were wintering on the Salt Fork of the Arkansas river on the border of Kansas....

"One of the favorite songs of the cowboys in those days was called 'The Dying Girl's Lament,' the story of a girl who had been betrayed by her lover...

"I had often amused myself by trying to write verses, and one dull winter day in camp to while away the time I began writing a poem which could be sung to the tune of 'The Dying Girl's Lament.' I made it a dying ranger or a cowboy....

"After I had finished the new words to the song I sang it to the boys in the outfit. They liked it and began singing it. It became popular with boys in other outfits ...and from that time on I heard it sung everywhere on the range and the trail."

Not long after this interview, Maynard told song collector Ina Sires that "he wrote the words to fit the tune of an old song that used to be sung by the cowboys called 'The Dying Girl's Lament,' which was the story of a girl dying in a hospital, and which began like this:

"'As I walked down by St. James Hospital, St. James Hospital so early one day, etc.' The song was accepted by the cowboys."


Maynard evidently told Sires specifically (and without knowledge of this thread) that he adapted his "Dying Cowboy" directly from a version of "The Dying Girl" which included the name "St. James Hospital."

While Maynard was apparently responsible for *one* adaptation of "The Dying Girl's Lament," there's no way to know if he was truly the first (or the only one) to adapt the song to the American West. No "cowboy" text before Thorp's very different (and oddly "literary") one (1908) seems to survive.

Lomax's extensive conflation (1910) suggests that by then the song was well known in various texts.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM

Unless those claims can be proved inaccurate or wrong, Jon, I would be very happy to accept that account. What he wrote is sufficiently different to 'The Dying Girl's Lament' to warrant being called a new song and therefore no issue with copyrighting it. At worst it could be called a parody. It also takes 'St James Infirmary' use in the States back to before 1876 which is more relevant to this thread.

I'll have another look at my versions of TDC in respect of variation and see if that throws up any points of interest.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM

"Maynard evidently told Sires specifically (and without knowledge of this thread) that he adapted his "Dying Cowboy" directly from a version of "The Dying Girl" which included the name "St. James Hospital."

Ker-pow! Another piece of the jigsaw pops into place. Thanks for that.

I've had a look at the Thorp (1921) book that I downloaded this morning. The 'Cowboy's Lament' in there begins 'As I walked out in the streets of Laredo' and was apparently "credited to Troy Hale, Battle Creek, Nebraska... I [Thorp] first heard it sung in a bar-room at Wisner, Nebraska, about 1886"

It's very similar to the Maynard text above, except for the first line, the substitution of 'cowboy' for 'ranger' throughout, and two additional verses, one beginning 'my friends and relations they live in the nation', and another 'swing your rope slowly and rattle your spurs lowly' (in addition to the usual drums and fifes stanza).

Is this likely to be authentic, and if so does it represent another 'new composition', this time based on Maynard's?

The court decision notes: "In March, 1929, the plaintiffs revived the old song under the title 'St. James' Infirmary.' *The infirmary heretofore unidentified was given a name* [my emphasis - L]. They put forward an advertising and publicity campaign to sell the old composition under the new name."

This passed me by the last time you posted it. Do you think it fair to assume that in introducing 'St James' to 'Gambler's Blues' in order to make it a 'new song', the authors were drawing on their knowledge of the old 'Dying Girl' song? Could it possibly be coincidence?

[Al]
"I meant what are the consequences for us as people who sing these songs..."

There need be none, Al. Enjoy the song for what it is, and be bothered about the history only if that sort of thing interests you. Though having said that' I fear it does affect my personal attitude to a song if I find it was cobbled together in the 1960s so, although I enjoy Bert singing his version of 'St James', I'd research a different one to sing myself.

"there are a lot of songs about funerals, Brian. Finnegans Wake, Barbara Allen, Teenage Cremation..... If I add a verse about six pall bearers to these songs do they become related to The Streets of Laredo and St James's Infirmary?"

No, and I'm not sure I'd want to hear 'Teenage Cremation' in the first place....

"Talking of Hamish Imlach - I wonder if you remember how he used to do Black is the Colour - like a blues song, really swinging that Aminor chord. always sounded odd to me."

Didn't sound half as odd as Lizzie Roberts (the original source of the song, from Hot Springs, NC) singing it to Maud Karpeles accompanying herself on a harmonium in a resolutely major key.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:34 AM

years ago i was in a folk club in Majorca and I heard a version of Street of Laredo sung by a young American ex-pat

AS I was a walking
One day in Majorca
As I was a walking through the Plaza Major
I spied a young tourist sad and crestfallen
drinking champagne sangria and a large fundador.

I see by your camera that you are a tourist
Oh I have a camera and sunglasses too
But I've got diarrhoea, and I caught it here
So now I'm afraid I must dash to the loo


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:38 PM

Thorp presents a peculiar problem. He explains in 1921 that he "first heard it sung" in Nebraska in 1886. That's presumably true, but the text he prints in 1921 comes from Lomax 1910.

Thorp's 1908 text - which may or may not be the one he heard in 1886 - is very different.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:30 AM

"Thorp presents a peculiar problem. He explains in 1921 that he "first heard it sung" in Nebraska in 1886. That's presumably true, but the text he prints in 1921 comes from Lomax 1910."

... which was itself a collation, hence the unusual number of verses?

Sorry, I've been a bit slow on the uptake here.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:23 AM

> which was itself a collation

Precisely.

With a few lines of extraneous poetry intruding in italics!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:24 AM

Will post Thorp 1908 later today.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 11:15 AM

I'm sorry if this has already been established, but looking through most of the earlier American more learned notes on the song there is constant reference to 'The Unfortunate Rake' tune being the same tune as early versions of The Dying Cowboy and related pieces. Is this just because of the confusion created by Kidson/Broadwood/Sharp or are there real connections between the dance tune TUR and any version of the family, or is this just a red herring created by the similarity of names. I'm not sufficiently musical to opine on this.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 11:36 AM

From Jack Thorp's 1908 booklet, "Songs of the Cowboys," including all misprints:

                         COW BOYS LAMENT

'Twas once in my saddle I used to be happy
'Twas once in my saddle I sued to be gay
But I first took to drinking, then to gambling
A shot from a six-shooter took my life away.

My curse let it rest, let it rest on the fair one
Who drove me from friends that I loved and from home
Who told me she loved me, just to deceive me
My curse rest upon her, wherever she roam.

Oh she was fair, Oh she was lovely
The belle of the Village the fairest of all
But her heart was as cold as the snow on the mountain
She gave me up for the glitter of gold.

I arrived in Galveston in old Texas
Drinking and gambling I went to give o'er
But, I met with a Greaser and my life he has finished
Home and relations I'll never see more.

Send for my father, Oh send for mother
Send for the surgeon to look at my wounds
But I fear it is useless I feel I am dying
I'm a young cow-boy cut down in my bloom.

Farewell my friends, farewell my relations
My earthly career has cost me sore
The cow-boy ceased talking, they knew he was dying
His trials on earth forever were o'er.

Chor. Beat your drums lightly, play your fifes merrily
Sing your dearth march as you bear me along
Take me to the grave yard, lay the sod o'er me
I'm a young cow-boy and I know I've done wrong.


My guess is that this is somebody's (Thorp's?) idiosyncratic rewrite of a more conventional text; it is based, perhaps, on a desire to approximate the original song from a faulty recollection.

Thorp commented elsewhere that collecting songs fro cowboys was difficult because few of the singers knew all the words!


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 11:49 AM

Steve, the two best-known tunes to "The Cowboy's Lament" (one often associated with the "Streets of Laredo" words" and the other with "Tom Sherman's Barroom") bear no resemblance that I can hear to "Rake" tunes I'm familiar with.

The exception is MacColl's "Trooper Cut Down in his Prime," which is clearly the "same" as "The Streets of Laredo" (and "The Bard of Armagh").

However, there are some less familiar tunes to variants of the "Lament" that I can't comment on offhand except to say that one or two are modal in nature.

I'm I right in recalling that the "Streets of Laredo" tune used for one of the "Dying Girl" texts on the Folkways album?


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 12:08 PM

Steve, I think I may have what you're looking for:

Exhibit A: Unfortunate Rake in the Traditional Tune Archive, version #1 from Ryan (1883).

Exhibit B: 'The Doctor' from Henry Adams, coll. George Gardiner 1906. This goes with a a recognizable Roud 2 text (with some interesting idiosyncracies).

The first bar is identical, and the shapes of the two tunes are sufficiently close that I would say they are clearly related, though obviously the song has half the number of bars.

Anyone agree with me?

Thanks for the Thorp text, Lighter.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 12:20 PM

The tune as printed for 'The Wandering Harper' in Crosby's Irish Musical Repository, linked previously by Karen, has the A and B parts of the tune reversed, as in TTA #2, which is why I didn't recognize it at first.

Looking at some of the other English tunes to Roud 2, none of them is as close a fit as the Adams one, but several are of that ilk. Others, like Harry Cox's, are straight major, rather than Dorian, and it's harder to see more than a vague resemblance there.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 01:25 PM

Brian, that's interesting as the Adams version is a 'Young girl cut down' variant. Somewhat bizarrely I used this tune myself as the B music of a tune I put together in jig time and had only heard it sung as a waltz before. I actually collected a full version of 'The Sailor Cut Down' to that tune.

I think I already hinted at this but all of the earlier British 'Young Girl cut down' variants have no mention of any hospital until we get to the Somerset version collected in 1936 which has 'Bath Hospital'. I think there would be a lot to learn from a detailed study regarding the likely transmission routes. It is interesting how the songs have passed almost freely between genders.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 01:43 PM

New Orleans "Daily Delta" (May 29, 1862), p.1:

"HEADQUARTERS MILITARY COMMANDANT'S OFFICE, New Orleans, May 27, 1862.

"General Orders No. 5.

"...II. The Medical Director at St. James Hospital will cause a consolidated report of the sick in his charge to made daily at these headquarters, to be sent in at 9 o'clock A.M."


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: meself
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 02:31 PM

I believe that would have been in close proximity to the House of the Rising Sun. Discuss.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 02:53 PM

Joan O'Bryant sings "Tom Sherman's Barroom" to a modal tune slightly resembling Iron Head Baker's song on "America Ballads and Folksongs" (Folkways, 1958). She learned it from a singer in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

Hear the tune:


https://www.amazon.com/American-Ballads-Folksongs-Joan-OBryant/dp/B000S96POS/ref=sr_1_2?s=dmusic&ie=UTF8&qid=1511293773&sr=1-2-m


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:20 PM

I've now read the Harwood book, apart from the appendices, but it has left me pretty confused, partly because a lot of the information seems very peripheral, if relevant at all, such as the words of some entirely unrelated songs. Maybe I'll do better if I read it again.

Harwood does offer one suggestion for making sense of the "Let her go" verse, but I can't tell how seriously. He points out that the clothing requested for the funeral was characteristic of two types of men, gamblers and pimps. So he combines them: "Our gambling man is a pimp. His baby, so sweet, so pale, and so dead, was one of his girls. He, of course, is the best of pimps. He cares for his women. He keeps them off the streets. And though they might search far and wide, they'll never find a sweeter pimp than he".

I can see at most three common features between the St James Infirmary / Gambler's Blues family and the Unfortunate Rake family, and two of those are tenuous. The only strong one is the funeral requests. But we are quite familiar with floating verses that crop up in songs that are otherwise distinct. Drawing the line is tricky with songs that consist mostly of such, but (for example) we don't say that every song with a verse about a rose entwining with a briar must really be a version of Barbara Allen. So the description of the desired funeral could be borrowed and re-used in a song that is otherwise entirely separate, not a descendant.

The "St James" name seems to belong in only a very few "Unfortunate Rake" versions, and again could have been borrowed.

And there is the frame, where someone (the singer) goes somewhere (a bar room, an infirmary, The Royal Albion, The streets of Laredo / etc) and sees a son/daughter/friend/sweetheart either dead or dying.

As I said, I'm still confused!

It would be helpful to have the words of enough versions together in one place. A few days ago Brian said "what we really need is Richie Matteson on the case." There are a few posts from Guest Richie way up thread.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 07:04 PM

****Drawing the line is tricky with songs that consist mostly of such, but (for example) we don't say that every song with a verse about a rose entwining with a briar must really be a version of Barbara Allen.****

Hi, Richard, I will be raising this very point on Saturday at the Sheffield Broadside TSF meeting.


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Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:38 PM

Brian
20th Nov 8.55
Agree that some people have used 'blanket' titles, as you say. Obviously not a mortal sin, but if you aren't aware of this, maybe because they aren't explicit, it can cause confusion, and I say this on the basis that I have been confused. It's a good point to flag up, as you did.
Another thing that can get confusing is when people don't specify whether they are referring to a tune or to words, or, perhaps to both. I think there is some confusion in discussion online (not necessarily this thread) because, I am realising, one and possibly more than one tune called "The Unfortunate Rake" was used for/with unrelated lyrics.


******

Nice point made above about uncertainty and the mystique of folk.

*****
It is true that various unrelated songs end with funerals.

There are also some unrelated old songs about 'clap'. I think there was one in Samuel Pepys' collection of ballads. A US uni, forget which now, but it could be googled, has indexed these and digitised some.

At this point I will hazard a 'theory' as opposed to constitional scepticism, happy for it to be shredded, maybe we have so many late 19th century lock hospital songs because of the Contagious Diseases Acts, which were passed, I believe because the military was losing so many sick days to it. It was a big issue in the Crimean war. At first the laws allowing them to forcibly take in prostitutes only applied in selected towns with barracks, including I think, but this could be checked Cork and Dublin. I think there were some hospitals created at the time. I'm guessing most folk tried to buy over the counter quack cures,even if they were sure what they had. Hospital cost money and many would not let infectious people in. Not claiming the song did not exist prior to that, but it seems to have been printed all over at the
I conjecture only.

I wonder whether this would have been sung by the squaddies of those times, who no doubt sang all sorts when 'in their cups'?

Another marginal point is the pipe and drum: these were mainly battlefield signalling instruments, the pitches suitable to carry over noise. I know you get them in marching bands. I don't think you were allowed a military funeral for dying of the pox. Somebody mentioned the death march, and you guessed it, several composers wrote one.


I have certainly got some new and interesting ideas from this discussion.

Thank you


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