Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 11:15 AM

I'm sorry if this has already been established, but looking through most of the earlier American more learned notes on the song there is constant reference to 'The Unfortunate Rake' tune being the same tune as early versions of The Dying Cowboy and related pieces. Is this just because of the confusion created by Kidson/Broadwood/Sharp or are there real connections between the dance tune TUR and any version of the family, or is this just a red herring created by the similarity of names. I'm not sufficiently musical to opine on this.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:24 AM

Will post Thorp 1908 later today.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 08:23 AM

> which was itself a collation

Precisely.

With a few lines of extraneous poetry intruding in italics!

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Nov 17 - 05:30 AM

"Thorp presents a peculiar problem. He explains in 1921 that he "first heard it sung" in Nebraska in 1886. That's presumably true, but the text he prints in 1921 comes from Lomax 1910."

... which was itself a collation, hence the unusual number of verses?

Sorry, I've been a bit slow on the uptake here.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 03:38 PM

Thorp presents a peculiar problem. He explains in 1921 that he "first heard it sung" in Nebraska in 1886. That's presumably true, but the text he prints in 1921 comes from Lomax 1910.

Thorp's 1908 text - which may or may not be the one he heard in 1886 - is very different.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 11:34 AM

years ago i was in a folk club in Majorca and I heard a version of Street of Laredo sung by a young American ex-pat

AS I was a walking
One day in Majorca
As I was a walking through the Plaza Major
I spied a young tourist sad and crestfallen
drinking champagne sangria and a large fundador.

I see by your camera that you are a tourist
Oh I have a camera and sunglasses too
But I've got diarrhoea, and I caught it here
So now I'm afraid I must dash to the loo

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 10:58 AM

"Maynard evidently told Sires specifically (and without knowledge of this thread) that he adapted his "Dying Cowboy" directly from a version of "The Dying Girl" which included the name "St. James Hospital."

Ker-pow! Another piece of the jigsaw pops into place. Thanks for that.

I've had a look at the Thorp (1921) book that I downloaded this morning. The 'Cowboy's Lament' in there begins 'As I walked out in the streets of Laredo' and was apparently "credited to Troy Hale, Battle Creek, Nebraska... I [Thorp] first heard it sung in a bar-room at Wisner, Nebraska, about 1886"

It's very similar to the Maynard text above, except for the first line, the substitution of 'cowboy' for 'ranger' throughout, and two additional verses, one beginning 'my friends and relations they live in the nation', and another 'swing your rope slowly and rattle your spurs lowly' (in addition to the usual drums and fifes stanza).

Is this likely to be authentic, and if so does it represent another 'new composition', this time based on Maynard's?

The court decision notes: "In March, 1929, the plaintiffs revived the old song under the title 'St. James' Infirmary.' *The infirmary heretofore unidentified was given a name* [my emphasis - L]. They put forward an advertising and publicity campaign to sell the old composition under the new name."

This passed me by the last time you posted it. Do you think it fair to assume that in introducing 'St James' to 'Gambler's Blues' in order to make it a 'new song', the authors were drawing on their knowledge of the old 'Dying Girl' song? Could it possibly be coincidence?

[Al]
"I meant what are the consequences for us as people who sing these songs..."

There need be none, Al. Enjoy the song for what it is, and be bothered about the history only if that sort of thing interests you. Though having said that' I fear it does affect my personal attitude to a song if I find it was cobbled together in the 1960s so, although I enjoy Bert singing his version of 'St James', I'd research a different one to sing myself.

"there are a lot of songs about funerals, Brian. Finnegans Wake, Barbara Allen, Teenage Cremation..... If I add a verse about six pall bearers to these songs do they become related to The Streets of Laredo and St James's Infirmary?"

No, and I'm not sure I'd want to hear 'Teenage Cremation' in the first place....

"Talking of Hamish Imlach - I wonder if you remember how he used to do Black is the Colour - like a blues song, really swinging that Aminor chord. always sounded odd to me."

Didn't sound half as odd as Lizzie Roberts (the original source of the song, from Hot Springs, NC) singing it to Maud Karpeles accompanying herself on a harmonium in a resolutely major key.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:54 AM

Unless those claims can be proved inaccurate or wrong, Jon, I would be very happy to accept that account. What he wrote is sufficiently different to 'The Dying Girl's Lament' to warrant being called a new song and therefore no issue with copyrighting it. At worst it could be called a parody. It also takes 'St James Infirmary' use in the States back to before 1876 which is more relevant to this thread.

I'll have another look at my versions of TDC in respect of variation and see if that throws up any points of interest.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:35 AM

Posted to an earlier thread, but may be of interest here:

The U.S. law journal Northeastern Reporter (1932, Vol. 181, p. 58) acknowledges a 1930 copyright suit concerning "St. James Infirmary."

The court decision notes: "In March, 1929, the plaintiffs revived the old song under the title 'St. James' Infirmary.' *The infirmary heretofore unidentified was given a name* [my emphasis - L]. They put forward an advertising and publicity campaign to sell the old composition under the new name."

The song in question was credited to "Joe Primrose" (actually Irving Mills) of Gotham Music Service. A year later a rival publisher put out a similar song with the same title. Hence the lawsuit.

And from further notes I've made:

Harwood asserts that cowboy Francis Henry Maynard "copyrighted" the cowboy version in 1876. While supporting Maynard's claim, his biography by Jim Hoy, Cowboy's Lament (2010), makes no mention of a copyright, which would seem highly improbable anyway.

Maynard published a booklet of his verse titled "Rhymes of the Range and Trail" (1911) which included the following:


THE DYING COWBOY

As I rode down by Tom Sherman's bar-room,
Tom Sherman's bar-room so early one day,
There I espied a handsome young ranger
All wrapped in white linen, as cold as the clay.
"I see by your outfit that you are a ranger,"
The words that he said as I went riding by,
"Come sit down beside me, and hear my sad story,
I'm shot through the breast and I know I must die.

Chorus:
Then muffle the drums and play the dead marches;
Play the dead marches as I'm carried along;
Take me to the church-yard and lay the sod o'er me,
I'm a young ranger and I know I've done wrong.

"Go bear a message to my grey-haired mother
Go break the news to gently to my sister so dear,
But never a word of this place do you mention,
As they gather around you my story to hear.
Then there is another as dear as a sister,
Who will bitterly weep when she knows I am gone,
But another more worthy may win her affection,
For I'm a young ranger ? I know I've done wrong."

Chorus

"Once in my saddle I used to be dashing;
Once in my saddle, I used to be brave;
But I first took to gambling, from that to drinking,
And now in my prime, I must go to my grave.
Go gather around you a crowd of gay rangers,
Go tell them the tale of their comrade's sad fate,
Tell each and all to take timely warning,
And leave their wild ways before it's too late."

Chorus

"Go, now, and bring me a cup of cold water,
To bathe my flushed temples," the poor fellow said.
But ere I returned, the spirit had left him,
Had gone to is Giver ? the ranger was dead.
So we muffled the drums and played the dead marches,
We bitterly wept as we bore him along,
For we all loved the ranger, so brave and so handsome,
We all loved our comrade, although he'd done wrong.


Maynard told a journalist in 1924:

"During the winter of 1876 I was working for a Grimes outfit which had started north with a trail herd [from Texas]...We were wintering on the Salt Fork of the Arkansas river on the border of Kansas....

"One of the favorite songs of the cowboys in those days was called 'The Dying Girl's Lament,' the story of a girl who had been betrayed by her lover...

"I had often amused myself by trying to write verses, and one dull winter day in camp to while away the time I began writing a poem which could be sung to the tune of 'The Dying Girl's Lament.' I made it a dying ranger or a cowboy....

"After I had finished the new words to the song I sang it to the boys in the outfit. They liked it and began singing it. It became popular with boys in other outfits ...and from that time on I heard it sung everywhere on the range and the trail."

Not long after this interview, Maynard told song collector Ina Sires that "he wrote the words to fit the tune of an old song that used to be sung by the cowboys called 'The Dying Girl's Lament,' which was the story of a girl dying in a hospital, and which began like this:

"'As I walked down by St. James Hospital, St. James Hospital so early one day, etc.' The song was accepted by the cowboys."


Maynard evidently told Sires specifically (and without knowledge of this thread) that he adapted his "Dying Cowboy" directly from a version of "The Dying Girl" which included the name "St. James Hospital."

While Maynard was apparently responsible for *one* adaptation of "The Dying Girl's Lament," there's no way to know if he was truly the first (or the only one) to adapt the song to the American West. No "cowboy" text before Thorp's very different (and oddly "literary") one (1908) seems to survive.

Lomax's extensive conflation (1910) suggests that by then the song was well known in various texts.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:11 AM

There are 2 ways of looking at umbrella titles from a researcher's point. They can get in the way of accuracy if misused as seems to be the case with 'The Unfortunate Rake'. However, in everyday discussion
it would be impractical if not impossible to keep referring to Child 295B or Laws P27a or Roud 27798 or ODNR 364, so to counter this I use my own Master Title index alongside these 4 systems. This is based upon the most frequently used published title. When I'm studying a particular ballad and comparing all of the versions, if a particular version comes without the singer's title and only gives an umbrella title I leave it blank to avoid inaccuracy.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 09:06 AM

Thankyou Brian. That's very good of you to explain that.

When I said - what are the consequences, I don't mean the consequences for mankind.

I meant what are the consequences for us as people who sing these songs...

there are a lot of songs about funerals, Brian. Finnegans Wake, Barbara Allen, Teenage Cremation..... If I add a verse about six pall bearers to these songs do they become related to The Streets of Laredo and St James's Infirmary?

Talking of Hamish Imlach - I wonder if you remember how he used to do Black is the Colour - like a blues song, really swinging that Aminor chord. always sounded odd to me.

if we had the all important DNA tests and St James's infirmary is proved to be Irish. What are the consequences - shall we add a verse about hurling, drop a few begorrahs into the lyrics....?

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

Thank you, Karen.

"I would add that there is also some room for questioning whether there was ever a version of these lyrics specifically entitled by their singers 'The Unfortunate Rake'. "

As far as I can see, most traditional singers titled their songs by first line or chorus. It was the collectors who allocated titles according to Child's nomenclature or their own invention, and tried to stick to them to identify variants as members of a family, rather as Steve Roud's numbering system has done for us more recently (and a lot more reliably).

For instance, Cecil Sharp insisted on calling Appalachian examples of Roud 15 'Cruel Ship's Carpenter' when I suspect the locals called it 'Pretty Polly'. But that did at least mean he placed it in the same bracket as the English song of that name.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

Tarn it!

I got muddled up and put the wrong name in the 'From' box, when I was just thanking Brian for his summary of where we are at.

Very sorry for any misunderstandings that may follow.

The man who is said to have copyrighted cowboy's lament was Frank Maynard.

:0

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 08:13 AM

Thank you for this excellent summary.

My own opinion is a) that nobody really knows, and that nobody will ever know 'the whole truth', b) all we can do is make inferences, some of which some people may find persuasive, some not and also, c) without wishing to call anybody a 'liar' (Harwood disagrees that Blind Willie McTell wrote "the dying crapshooter's blues" even though McTell claimed that he did, but does not call him a liar), there is reason to be a tad sceptical about what one reads in early journals, and even in the methods and findings about people collecting in the field.   

I would add that there is also some room for questioning whether there was ever a version of these lyrics specifically entitled by their singers 'The Unfortunate Rake'. The early references to this title are references to what I have learned on this very helpful thread thread may be more than one 'air', or melody, of this name, which also has a number of other names, which seems to have been a dance tune at some point, and whose origin is also obscure. The idea that the words/a version/variant (is there a technical difference in folkloric theory between a version and a variant) of this air at some point were joined up with the song whose 19th century title was mostly The Unfortunate Lad is, I humbly suggest, an inference, and most probably one entrenched in people's minds as a result of the work of A L Lloyd. But one reason for my coming on this thread was to see if anybody could provide me with, say, evidence from the 19th century of the actual use of those words with that title. I hope I have not muddled this up: this is how I understand it.

By the way, I have nothing against "Bert" Lloyd. I never met him, but it is said in literature I have found that he was likeable. He obviously managed to get on good enough terms with the English Folk Dance and Song Society. But some of his 'politics' strike one as almost wilfully naive with the wisdom of hindsight. I am thinking of a passage from his book on English Folk Song, a book which demonstrates to me a lack of ability to keep to the topic as opposed to going off at tangents, and does not feel to me look remotely 'academic'. Reading it after the horrors of the break up of the former Yugoslavia, not to mention the demise of British coal mining, I found this:

Things have changed a bit in the last few years. In some parts of Europe, and particularly in the folkloristically rich South-east the general democratic trend has set a different pattern in what Americans like to call the 'collector-informant context'. A Balkan collective farm peasant is no longer daunted by the man in collar and tie, any more than a Durham miner by the fellow from the BBC. The increase of working class self confidence offers new and more favourable conditions for discovering the full physiology of musical folklore, blood, flesh and wounds, and not merely its anatomy."

I hadn't seen Thorp Fife and Fife. Thanks for the reference. On cowboy versions, Harwood gives the name of a man who claimed to have copyrighted it in the 19th century: cannot just recall it now. That's another story from Harwood. Definitely a good read. Actually, I find him more readable than Lloyd.

Have a nice day, everybody.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 07:24 AM

"Brian, Karen, and Steve, are you familiar with the comprehensive collation of cowboy versions in Thorp, Fife, and Fife's "Songs of the Cowboys" (1966)?"

No. I did manage to download Thorp's earlier book free, but I can only see the one you're talking about available from US sellers where there would be a shipping issue. I should definitely like to see it, though. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:26 AM

"It poses many questions in particular the role of the singer in creating the song"
Plenty of evidence that they did create songs
Dig out the BBC recording of the Hebridean singers creating a song on the spot in praise of Alan Lomax's sexual attributes
We have a description of four men standing at the crossroads of the next village from here, tossing verses at each other until they's made a seven verse song
Another of a group of young, non-literate Travellers sitting on a grassy bank outside a church making a long song about how the wedding that was taking place would turn out

penultimate verse
"Oh the first year were were married was lovely
And the second we couldn't agree
An the third one she put on the trousers
And then made a wreck out of me"

That's why it is nonsense to suggest that singers had to rely on print for their songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 05:08 AM

"what exactly are the consequences of this bloke ever having come across an American version of the Unfortunate Rake"

Hi Al,
Perhaps this comment is a timely reminder that when a bunch of specialists get to discussing fine details, then the overall picture may be obscured. I still like to think of Mudcat as a resource for the curious, so, to briefly answer your question:

It's been accepted wisdom for many years in the folk revival that an English song called 'The Unfortunate Rake' was the precursor of 'St James Infirmary' partly because of the funeral arrangements with six pall bearers etc, but also because there were thought to be versions of the English song set in 'St James' Hospital'.

More recently, some researchers like Karen here have disputed this, on the grounds that no English versions of the song actually mention 'St James Hospital', a line that seems to been interpolated into the song by Bert Lloyd, from an Appalachian version.

There is a single Irish version (Tom Lenihan's) that does include the 'St James' line. But this was collected after the Louis Armstrong recording had become a hit, so the possibility arises that 'St James' went into the Irish version from America, not the other way round. There are plenty of examples of traditional singers being influenced by commercial recordings, but in this case there are strong reasons (as Jim and I have explained) to believe otherwise.

I don't know whether or not this will convince you that it's a matter of great import when the rest of the world is falling apart around our ears, but to those of us interested in this kind of stuff it certainly is.

"Not knowing a lot about music. I never really understood about how the Streets of Laredo related in any way to St James's Infirmary."

In many ways you'd regard them as different songs, but the basic plot is that someone has died and a funeral is being arranged. Then compare:

Get six jolly cowboys to carry my coffin,
Get six pretty maidens to bear up my pall

with:

Get six gamblers to carry my coffin
Six chorus girls to sing me a song

Too close to be coincidental, I would think. Then you have less well-known versions of the cowboy song that include the line: 'As I passed by Tom Sherman's bar room', which chimes with 'old Joe's bar-room'.

Just because it's a great recording, here's Tom Sherman's bar-room.

And, again because it's a wonderful performance that deserves its own blue clicky, here's Iron Head Baker's version, which includes verses that look like they belong to English, cowboy and jazz versions.

It's not easy to determine the exact sequence of events, but the three songs are very clearly entangled.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:48 AM

I agree Jim - its the fragmentary nature of our knowledge and insights that, if anything give a mythic power to folksong.

It poses many questions in particular the role of the singer in creating the song. It is easy nowadays to see footage of singers. But even someone as recent and even recorded people like Robert Johnson - we know very little - we can only guess at his techniques and the roots from which he distilled his art.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 17 - 04:26 AM

This entire discussion seems to be based on the idea that, if it hasn't been collected it has never existed.
A widespread and detailed knowledge of our song traditions does not predate the beginning of the twentieth century when field research began in earnest and the researchers insisted that they were dealing with a long term tradition that was on its last legs.
A folk song sung by 'shepherds' was reported as early as 1549, which indicates an oral tradition at least as early as that - that song was still in the oral tradition and being collected into the tatter half of the twentieth century
Hardly surprising that a single location can't be traced.
Our knowledge of the tradition represents a tiny blip of a long-standing and wide-ranging cultural activity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:29 PM

I have Thorp and 2 editions of Fife. I have also done my own studies of all the versions at my disposal not particularly looking at the named locations as I know how fickle these can be in transmission. Looking back at my study apart from adding a few obscure versions I can't really add substantially to the discussions here.

My study is nowhere near as comprehensive as those carried out by Richie, being mainly concerned with similar versions and possible evolutions, but like Richie I do try to categorise different oecotypes using comparisons stanza by stanza and picking out obvious characteristics such as the gender of the main character.
He's about ready to start on a new song family and I could ask him to have a go at this one, but I doubt he'll be able to add any opinions other than those already expressed. He is, however very thorough and if there are any 'St James's' versions earlier than 1900 he's your man to find them.

The misleading title 'The Unfortunate Rake' introduced by Kidson/Broadwood and perpetrated by the likes of Bert Lloyd doesn't seem to be relevant here unless the two tunes can be seen to be related.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 02:00 PM

Brian, Karen, and Steve, are you familiar with the comprehensive collation of cowboy versions in Thorp, Fife, and Fife's "Songs of the Cowboys" (1966)?

Included is a categorization of all the locales the song mentions.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:49 PM

what exactly are the consequences of this bloke ever having come across an American version of the Unfortunate Rake.

Not knowing a lot about music. I never really understood about how the Streets of Laredo related in any way to St James's Infirmary. They seem on the surface to be unrelated. I sing both songs. The melodies and the words seem different to me.

I think all singers are subject to their environment. Despite there being large numbers of people from the Indian sub continent and middle Eastern folk living in England. So far their ideas haven't filtered into my music. But I suppose it might in future. Singers can't really control the song. Even the most conservative of artforms undergoes changes. It is inevitable.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 01:34 PM

Steve, I agree completely.

By "To each his own" I'm suggesting ironically (gotta stop that!) that uncritical people will jump to conclusions, or cherry-pick evidence that supports their prior beliefs, and there's not much anyone can do except point it out.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:45 AM

I've just checked back on the MacKenzie (1909?) version from Nova Scotia. There are several differences from Sharp / Donald: the victim is female, not male; she asks her mother, not her father, to 'pity my case'; there's an additional verse beginning 'once on the street I used to look handsome'.

There are sufficient similarities to suggest the two variants arose from the same basic stock, but probably at more than one degree of separation. This again militates against transmission between Virginia and Nova Scotia. It also rather argues against another possibility (I'm surprised this one hasn't been advanced yet) that the song was included in some 19th Century songbook (like 'Forget-me-Not', though it doesn't seem to be in there), which was very probably a source for a few of the songs Sharp collected.

Lighter, you're probably right, but I'm still digging.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:42 AM

Jon,
At one end of a spectrum you have incontrovertible facts and opposed to this are fictions and falsehoods with many types of opinions in the middle. Also somewhere in the middle are possibles and probables, and for me, where the first of these are not present possibles and probables can become extremely important but we need to be clear which is which.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 10:23 AM

I believe that a mountaineer of 1910 would likely have considered the five miles to the railway station walking distance.

But since people had horses and wagons, the question is moot.

More importantly, I suggest that the presence of railway stations in Appalachia would be more conducive to importing songs (like "The Streets of Laredo" and "The Unfortunate Lad/Girl" *into* the mountains than exporting them to places like Nova Scotia.

Not to mention that there was a far greater cultural affinity between the Southern Appalachians and the cattle country of Texas and the Chisholm Trail, than between the Appalachians and Nova Scotia. Another side issue, to be sure, but of interest.

The most interesting questions raised in this thread (and others) can probably never be answered with absolute certainty. All we can do is look at the evidence and draw conclusions that seem the most probable.
In some cases probability itself may be a matter of opinion.

The alternative is to favor explanations that, while they may be very unlikely, appeal to our romantic or iconoclastic sensibilities.

To each his own.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:38 AM

"Re Cecil Sharp
He collected the version with St James in the words in Dewey, within walking distance of a railway station, which is how he got there himself.
You can read his diaries for the year here..."

Having spent the last four years researching Cecil Sharp's trips into the mountains, (the results are published in the current Folk Music Journal), I'm well acquainted with his diaries, the kind of communities he visited and the songs he collected. One of my principal arguments is that he and Maud Karpeles noted down a large number of songs that were not 200-year-old British ballads that had come over with the original migrants, so I do realise that the communities were not completely cut off from the outside.

"Walking distance of a railway station" actually turns out to be at least five miles away, if you read Sharp's diary entry for June 4, 1918, and do a few sums. He thought nothing of walking fifteen miles or more in pursuit of singers.

For your interest, there are several photos taken by Sharp of Laura Virginia Donald on the VWML Library website at #AC38.

However, the fact that Mrs Donald lived out in the woods five miles from a railway station isn't really relevant to the balance of probability regarding song transmission to or from Nova Scotia. The chances are tiny compared with the likelihood of the song having arrived independently from the British Isles.

Karen, although you have got a really interesting discussion going here, and although I have much sympathy for your argument about the rather reckless approach of sixties folk revivalists to evidence-based research, you seem to have got the cart before the horse. Barry's theory for Irish origins, or Lloyd's on the 'Unfortunate Rake' title or the significance of St. James Hospital, may well be based on incomplete or flimsy evidence, and deserve to be interrogated. However, you seem to be taking the position that everything they said must therefore be untrue, and that evidence that does support those theories must be dismissed - hence the repeated and rather quixotic attempts to airbrush away the pre-1920 'St James' variants of Roud 2, and to disqualify Tom Lenihan's version of the song.

On the subject of TL, you've posted the reference to American migration from his community more than once, as if this proves he got songs from there (in direct opposition to Jim Carroll's first-hand evidence), but that misses the point that his variant of Roud 2 is textually rather unique. If by some remote chance his sister had sent him the record of Armstrong singing 'St James Infirmary' it's highly unlikely he would even have recognized it as a version of the song he knew, never mind incorporating the place name. If that's not what you're suggesting I apologize for misunderstanding you, but if not, what are you trying to prove about the Lenihan version?

When I joined this discussion I was well aware of the longstanding theory that 'Unfortunate Lad' had evolved into 'St James Infirmary', 'Streets of Laredo', etc, etc, but also aware that modern scholars had questioned it. Having done a little digging myself, I've become more convinced that 'St James' is indeed part of the British Isles tradition of the song, even though no-one seems to have found anything pre-20th century as yet.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

"Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, however aggressively it is presented."
And researched evidence is far more reliable Karen - you really should know that
You are taking a single statement totally out of context, never having met any of the people involved
I ask again - does Tom sound as if he is singing an American song?
Perhaps you can find other songs he larned from 'folk magazines or "the radio"
This becomes tiresome - if not more than a little bizarre
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:25 AM

"Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, however aggressively it is presented."
And researched evidence is far more reliable Karen - you really should know that
You are taking a single statement totally out of context, never having met any of the people involved
I ask again - does Tom sound as if he is singing an American song?
Perhaps you can find other songs he larned from 'folk magazines or "the radio"
This becomes tiresome - if not more than a little bizarre
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 09:09 AM

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal evidence, however aggressively it is presented.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:55 AM

"Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)"
Sigh......!!!
I defy you to find a single song he learned from an American singer in repertoire
This is arrogance in the extreme Karen
I knew Tom for over twenty years - I recorded him at length talking about his songs, where he got them and how he regarded them
You were not criticised for claiming Clare was not a musically isolated community - it was far from that
The repertoire here was full of songs from Britain which were absorbed into the local oral tradition
You won't find John Henry or Big Rock Candy Mountain or Grand Coulee Dam or Wreck of the Old 97.....
You are virtually calling me a liar to make an academic point
Tom did not learn or sing St James' Infirmary - he learned St James's Hospital which is one of the oral manifestations of 'The Unfortunate Rake'
I ask again - does Tom's rendition sound anything like an American song?   
This is a repeat performance of the John Reilly campaign that set out to claim that a non-literate Traveller must have learned The Maid and The Palmer from print.
It's little wonder that academics have such a bad press.
If you think I am being insulting, I suggest you work out how insulting contradicting 20 years research work is
Jay-sus!
"old ballads derived from European tradition"
I don't know how conversant you are with the oral tradition but many of our Child ballads can be traced back to Scandinavian and other Europesn sources - it doesn't mean their singers learned them from a visiting Canto-Hondo singer
Give us a break!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 08:16 AM

Steve Gardham

Good question about who St James was. I had only got as far as finding out there was more than one. Not big on saints, myself.

Brian Peters

You might be interested to get hold of Robert Harwood's book: he covers the ground you went over, though well done on your own research; it is how I knew about the Fess Williams version and so on. It is also how I know that the tune and similar songs were around before Primrose put in his copyright of his version, and that there was a trial about the ownership to the words St James Infirmary Blues. It appears to have been played by a number of bands criss-crossing the continent. There are musical similarities with a song called 'Dying Crapshooter's Blues' attributed to Porter Grainger and recorded by several artists in the 20s and apparently covered by Blind Willie McTell eg using death marches/type music for comic effect. You can get versions of this in itunes and spotify.
I like the Fess Williams version and also the Martha Copeland, especially the musical jokes eg the Charleston bit.

Re Cecil Sharp

He collected the version with St James in the words in Dewey, within walking distance of a railway station, which is how he got there himself. On the same trip, he collected a version of Loredo/Cowboy's lament in the Appalachians, and this seems to me proof that this area was not cut off musically from the rest of the country, however far inland it may have been.

You can read his diaries for the year here:

https://www.vwml.org/browse/browse-collections-sharp-diaries/browse-sharpdiary1918#recordnumber=2

The original notes for the words are online, but I can't find the link just now. It was Maud Karpeles who took these down: Sharp was the one who took down the music.

On Lenihan

Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)


Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)

The social occasions on which dancing and singing took place were weddings, American wakes, parties for returned emigrants in the summer or at Christmas.

I believe I was criticised for suggesting that County Clare was not a musically isolated community, but I made this suggestion on the basis of publicly available information, some of it directly related to the person in question.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 06:10 AM

"There was all kinds of trade and sea-travel all along the east coast of North America (incidentally, a busy trade between Nova Scotia and the Caribbean); all it would take is one singer from the Maritimes meeting one singer from the Appalachians for a song to be passed along (I'll spare you the obligatory colourful description of the imagined meeting ...)."

Fair point, 'meself' (I suspected someone here would be more knowledgable than me), but like Lighter I feel the odds are long.

(a) Sharp collected the song over 400 miles from the coast, in pretty remote mountain backcountry.

(b) He collected it only once (compared with 30+ examples for many other British ballads that are older and would have been brought over in the early mass migration), so it seems to have been relatively rare.

(c) I should more precisely have said "well-established migratory routes across the Atlantic" to both Virginia and Nova Scotia, which would represent a more plausible avenue for song transmission than a chance meeting between singers at sea or in port.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 17 - 03:13 AM

James the Greater was the patron Saint of arthritis (gawd bless 'im) and other things such as rheumatism; apothecaries; blacksmiths; druggists; equestrians; furriers; horsemen; knights; laborers; pharmacists; pilgrims; rheumatoid sufferers; riders; soldiers; tanners; veterinarians.
Take your pick
Saints Fiacre, George, Saturninus of Toulouse and Symphorian of Autun were all patron Saints of sexually transmitted diseases (not bad for an atheist, if I say so myself!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 05:17 PM

Was St James by any chance the patron saint of STDs?

Subscriber Trunk Dialling?
Unlikely! he was a fisherman. They use the net to keep in touch.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 04:03 PM

Karen,
You might find it useful to look at the versions of Roud 2 on the Full English search on the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library site at EFDSS, particularly the 4 or so entries that show the info on 'The Unfortunate Rake' and how it somehow got attached to 'The Unfortunate Lad' Kidson noted down the version from Kate Thompson in 1892. At one point 'Rake' tune from Kerr's Merry Melodies is displayed above Kate Thompson's tune. I can't read music so can't comment on any similarities. I can't find any other British versions pre 1900 that mention St James's. As others have stated just as there are lots of Lock Hospitals there are lots of St James's (One here in Yorkshire at Leeds) It's futile trying to pinpoint which one it might refer to.

Was St James by any chance the patron saint of STDs? Baring-Gould would have known.

BTW there is a particularly graphic/gory Sc. version in Greig-Duncan.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:50 PM

But multiply the anomaly by the equally long odds that a collector (and a published collector at that) would have encountered one of the very, very few NS singers whose version stemmed from the Appalachians.

The simpler explanation (thus the one to be provisionally preferred) is that the NS version came ultimately from Britain or Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: meself
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 02:56 PM

Brian Peters: I agree with your general point - i.e., that 'St. James' likely had a British origin - but I'd quibble with your statement that "There were well established sea routes across the Atlantic to both North American locations, but it's hard to imagine there was much traffic between the Appalachians and the Canadian Maritimes (1300 miles apart) in the 1910s." There was all kinds of trade and sea-travel all along the east coast of North America (incidentally, a busy trade between Nova Scotia and the Caribbean); all it would take is one singer from the Maritimes meeting one singer from the Appalachians for a song to be passed along (I'll spare you the obligatory colourful description of the imagined meeting ...). Anomalous, but possible.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 12:24 PM

"Great work, Brian. That would have taken me a week."

Thanks. I did get up early, and I was on a bit of a mission...

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 12:21 PM

"Speaking as one with some knowledge of the Southern Appalachians (pronounced "Appa-LATCH-uns, unlike those in the north)"

Yes, I should have specified 'Southern', since the chain runs right up through New Brunswick!

Over we Brits tend to say "Appa-lay-shuns" with a soft 'ch'. I was quickly disabused of this the first time I visited West Virginia.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 11:28 AM

Great work, Brian. That would have taken me a week.

>hard to imagine there was much traffic between the Appalachians and the Canadian Maritimes...in the 1910s

Speaking as one with some knowledge of the Southern Appalachians (pronounced "Appa-LATCH-uns, unlike those in the north), there must have been roughly none.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 09:52 AM

Several singers, including Walter Pardon, said that singers were reluctant to sing it publicly because of its content
I wonder how general that was.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 09:43 AM

Ah, checking back I see that Lighter posted the Ironhead Baker Youtube link ten days ago, and commented that this "version seems almost like a missing link between the broadsides and "The Streets of Laredo."

My feelings exactly. And it is a little odd that the first line (transcribed by Lomax as 'It was early one mornin' as I passed St. James Hospital') isn't on the recording. The tune, incidentally, sounds to me very like Texas Gladdens 'The Bad Girl's Lament'.

Thinking some more about the 'St James' business while cycling to the shops, I reckon that the two 'St James Hospital' texts that predate 1920 and were collected as far apart as Virginia and Nova Scotia constitute good evidence - albeit circumstantial - that this line originated in the British Isles. There were well established sea routes across the Atlantic to both North American locations, but it's hard to imagine there was much traffic between the Appalachians and the Canadian Maritimes (1300 miles apart) in the 1910s. If someone knows different, feel free to correct me.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 08:20 AM

**Lengthy post alert** I've whiled away the entire morning on this...

"versions of what became known as the jazz standard were widespread prior to the release and copyrighting by Irving Mills of that version, and in saying that I was relying on the research of Harwood."

Karen's timely reminder of the Harwood research led me back to the Walker article posted by Stewie on August 9
That has led me down some interesting pathways, and shown me that I was quite wrong in suggesting that the Armstrong hit was a one-off rewrite. As luck would have it, someone gave me a copy of Snadburg at a pub music session a few weeks back, so I had two of the key versions sitting on my shelf all along.

There are two versions of 'Gambler's Blues' that predate the Armstrong / Irving Mills recording in Sandburg's 'American Songbag' (1927). Here they are:

A
Given by Henry McCarthy of the University of Alabama

It was down in old Joe?s bar-room
On a corner of the square
The drinks were served as usual
And a goodly crowd was there

On my left stood Joe McKenny
His eyes bloodshot and red
He gazed at the crowds around him
And these are the words he said

As I passed by the old infirmary
I saw my sweetheart there
All stretched out on a table
So pale, so cold, so fair

Sixteen coal-black horses
All hitched to a rubber-tired hack
Carried seven girls to the graveyard
And only six of 'em coming back

Oh when I die just bury me
In a box-black coat and hat
Put a twenty-dollar gold piece on my watch chain
To let the Lord know I'm standing pat

Six crap shooters as pall bearers
Let a chorus girl sing me a song
With a jazz band on my hearse
To raise hell as we go along

And now you?ve heard my story
I?ll take another shot of booze
If anybody happens to ask you
Tell them I've got those gambler's blues


B
Given by Jake Zetlin and Jack Hagerty of Forth Worth and Los Angeles

Went down to St. Joe's infirmary
To see my woman there
She was layin' on the table
So white, so cold so fair

Went up to see the doctor
She?s very low, he said
Went back to see my woman
Good God, she's layin' there dead
[spoken] She's dead!

Let her go, let her go, God bless her
Wherever she may be
There?ll never be another like her
There?ll never be another for me

I may be killed on the ocean
I may be killed by a cannonball
But let me tell you buddy
That a woman was the cause of it all

Seventeen girls to the graveyard
Seventeen girls to sing her a song
Seventeen girls to the graveyard
Only sixteen of 'em comin' back

O sixteen coal-black horses
To carry me when I'm gone
O flowers on the coffin
While the burial's carried on

Sandburg prints one tune for both texts, which is substantially the same as Armstrong's.

NB: Jacob Israel Zeitlin (1902-1987) was a bookseller, poet and book reviewer in Ft. Worth, Texas before moving to Los Angeles (1925). Make of that what you will.

There?s another pre-Armstrong recording on Youtube, by
Fess Williams and His Royal Flush Orchestra (1927)

There's also a version recorded by Jimmie Rodgers in 1930, which is not a cover of Armstrong and may well predate it.

What do these alternative versions of 'Gambler's Blues' tell us?

First, that the text is quite variable between all the versions. Sandburg's A and B have a lot of differences between them, in terms of the substance of the stanzas, as well as details.

The 'let her go' stanza in the Armstrong hit, which contributors above have struggled to rationalise, makes a lot more sense in Sandburg B ('there'll never be another for me').
Sandburg B mentions 'flowers on the coffin', which harks back to the roses or lavender in English texts.
The name of the bar owner could be 'Old Joe', 'My old friend Joe', or 'Big Kid'. Fess Williams' subsidiary narrator is 'my old friend Sam Jackson', instead of 'Joe McKenny'.

Crucially, in not one of them is the hospital called 'St. James Infirmary'. It is, variously, 'the old infirmary', 'St Joe's Infirmary', 'the infirmary' and 'the big infirmary'.

The more I look at the history of this song, the more impossible it becomes to divorce it from 'Streets of Laredo' and 'Dying Cowboy'. There are five variants of this in Cox's 'Folksongs of the South', all from 1916/17. None of them mentions a hospital, but they are clearly related to 'Unfortunate Lad' by the verse describing beating of drums and playing of fifes. Otherwise, there are several added stanzas, describing letters to the cowboy's mother, and a glass of cold water. Then there is the following:

Once in my saddle I used to go dashing,
Once in my saddle I used to ride gay;
But I just took up drinking and then to card-playing,
Got shot by a gambler, and dying to-day

Compare that with Mary Doran's Irish version (1952), mentioned by Jim Carroll above:

When I was on horseback wasn't I pretty?
When I was on horseback wasn't I gay?
O wasn't I pretty when I entered Cork City
When I met with my downfall on the fourteenth of May?

Two out of the five cowboy versions in Cox set the action in a bar-room, either Tom Sherman's or McFinegan's.

I?ve only just realised that MacKenzie was collecting in Nova Scotia much earlier than I'd thought (pre-1910 as far as I can work out). His book contains a 'Bad Girl's Lament' very similar to the British texts and with a 'St James' reference, and a 'Dying Cowboy' very much like the ones in Cox.

I'm sure there are many more versions out there - what we really need is Richie Matteson on the case. However, it seems to me that we can conclude that a strain resembling 'Unfortunate Lad', with the location 'St James' hospital' was circulating in both the US South and Nova Scotia after 1900 and before 1920 (though the fact Sharp found it only once suggests it wasn't very common).

A related, but distinct strain, 'Dying Cowboy' or whatever, was already well established before 1920, retaining the funeral (and the 'saddle' verse) but often relocating the action to a bar-room. I have seen an online claim that this dates back to 1855 but can't find documentation. Anyone?

A third strain, 'Gambler's Blues' was established by the 1920s, incorporating alternative funeral details and, in some cases, setting the action in a bar-room as per 'Dying Cowboy'.

Just to confuse things further, Ironhead Baker's 'St James Hospital', recorded by the Lomaxes in 1933, looks more like 'Unfortunate Lad' than anything else, but includes bits of 'Dying Cowboy (e.g.the 'Once in my saddle I used to go dashing' stanza), and a list of mourners ('six young gamblers to carry my coffin, sixteen young whore-gals to sing me a song') that looks like an unexpurgated version of Armstrong.

As far as the location 'St James Hospital' goes, the above suggests that the links with 'Unfortunate Lad' are considerably stronger than with 'Gambler's Blues', though I accept that we have nothing concrete apart from Tom Lenihan (and nothing predating 1900) to show that 'St James' was part of the song in the British Isles.

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 08:19 AM

Whoops
About fallen women, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 06:39 AM

Incidentally
This song would not have been one Tom ever sang publicly - he learned them because he like them, not because he wanted to entertain people
Singing songs sympathetic to 'fallen women' at a time when the Church and the State were colluding to lock such women as criminals so that society forgot them would definitely have been a no-no
You may have read about the riots at the Abbey theatre at the premier of 'The Plough and the Stars' because O'Casey suggested that there were such things as 'prostitutes' in Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 05:49 AM

There isn't a songs=that dated back centuries Karen - as Ihave said, but there is evidence of a number of hospitals bearing the name 'St Jameses' specialising in the treatment of venereal diseases, the earliest being the one that preceeded St James's Palace
I know what Tom's repertoire was (backwards) and I knew how he learned them
- none were adapted from pop songs or the blues
As far ias the latter was concerned, Tom was a devout, if unassuming Catholic who would be very influenced by this when he was learning his songs
BISHOPS STATEMENT
His sister sang songs she had learned before she left Irland and sent the words of the ones Tom hadn't back to him
You may take my word for it - Tom probably never heard a blues singer in his life, let alone took songs from them
Do you honestly think Tom's version can be realated in any way to a blues version?
For crying out loud Karen - are you really surprised that people are rude to you?
You are trying to fit a very squate peg into a very round hole
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 05:16 AM

Interested to hear any credible evidence that St James Hospital Westminster is the hospital referred to in any song with 'St James' in the title. Interested to hear how and via what route such references were 'traced back' to this hospital, and the source of the idea that this hospital treated the clap. First known version of this idea comes from a Folkways LP, which cites an article by an American called Lodewick. Neither provides any evidence apart from the name.


Although Tom was a deep well of all sorts of folklore, he was primarily known as a singer. ?In addition to songs of Irish origin he performed old ballads derived from European tradition, along with local ditties and music hall songs; all were grist to his unbiased mill.? (Munnelly)

his repertoire came from many sources, including broadsheets and gramophone records, but was mainly acquired through oral channels.

The social occasions on which dancing and singing took place were weddings, American wakes, parties for returned emigrants in the summer or at Christmas.

http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/people/tom_lenihan.htm

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:35 AM

Can I just take up the cudgels of Lloyd while I'm in the mood?
I knew Bert slightly (I think everybody who knew him did so slightly)
While I often found him infuriating, I had the greatest respect for him as a researher
In response to n enquiry he once told be on a car journey that he was a messy keeper of notes and relied as much on his memory as he did those
As a short-lived editor of a club magazine, I shipped off a friend to interview Bert for our club - he spent a pleasurable few hours doing so and the following day received a phone call asking that several things he said be omitted as he wasn't sure of them.
In those days, Bert, like the rest of us, was operating without the benefit of computers and the net.
One of Bert's main problems seem to have been that he never really decided whether he was a singer or an academic.
"Ever since I learned that Lloyd wasn't always singing authentic versions straight from the 19th century, listening to him leaves me with mixed feelings."
There was nevar an obligation that any singer should sing "authentic versions" - if there had been there would be no such thing as "versions"
Bert was often obscure about his sources, but that's another matter.
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: Origin: Saint James Infirmary Blues
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Nov 17 - 03:17 AM

"Although I don't share Jim's scorn for deskbound research "
Neither do I Brian (presuming the "Jim" isn't me, of course!
I Use desk-bound research for everything I am unsure of
My "scorn" is reserved for the desk-jockeys who regard their own researches as unassailable and that of those who disagree "romantic rubbish" - especially those who speak in a form of folk 'Freemasonese' in 'a language that the stranger does not know' via books most of us can't afford.
I locked horns with one of those once who I recently read as having claimed that "most Irish folk songs started life on broadsides.
"Insulting"
Karen - at first I found the idea that Tom Lenihan learned his 'St James' Hospital' somewhat risible - when it was repeated after my denying it, I found it downright insulting - to me and to Tom's memory
We befriended and recorded Tom over a period of twenty years, much of that time interviewing him.
If we couldn't have spotted hims as being a covert blues fan we might as well have folded our microphones and taken up macrame.
My point remains as stated in the beginning
I traced the 'St James's reference back to a hospital in London run by charity nuns catering for leprosy patients and demolished to make room for St James' Palace
The article made the point that clap patients were included for 'the sake of the oud dacency' pertaining at the time
I have since believed that the 'St James' Hospital' reference predates the blues versions by several centuries.
Jim Carroll