BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act

Subject: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: GUEST,Blu
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 03:33 PM

From the ABC News website:

"Over the last three months, the Massachusetts cities of Cambridge, Northampton and Amherst and the township of Leverett, as well as the town of Carrboro, N.C., all passed resolutions that call the USA Patriot Act a threat to the civil rights of the residents of their communities. Congress passed the act in October to give federal investigators sweeping new powers to probe terrorism in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, and soon came under criticism from civil libertarians. The public has been supportive of the measure.

The five municipalities join Berkeley, Calif., and Ann Arbor, Mich., in taking a strong stance challenging the way the Bush administration wants to pursue its war on terror within the borders of the United States."

For the rest of the article, go to:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/usapatriot020701.html

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Click for part 2

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 03:38 PM

Remind us ignorami what the Patriot Act is? I know I ought to know...

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 03:54 PM

The Patriot Act transfers more centralized direct power to the executive branch of government, thereby creating a serrious challenge to the ballence of power, some commentators have refered to as a dictatorship.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 04:14 PM

Leave it to Noho, Amherst and the like to lead the way! Good for them!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 04:22 PM

In my mind four resolutions doesn't exactly equal a "revolt". Do this cities plan to take any action or is this all just talk ?

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: mack/misophist
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 05:43 PM

In the past, I have always disapproved of this kind of thing. In the past, it has always been city councils trying to rewrite US foreign policy. This, however, concerns our Constitution; not Bush's constitution or Cheney's or that of any of their friends. Ours. And if we don't stand up for it, who will? Go, brothers, go!

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 06:00 PM

It's a start. Everything must begin somewhere.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 07:12 PM

Click here for an analysis of the "USA Patriot Act" by the American Civil Liberties Union. With a name like "USA Patriot Act," you know it has to be trouble.
Why is it that the word "patriotism" so often has the implication of repression?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 07:17 PM

the last refuge of the scoundrel,wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: MAG
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:23 PM

No that was anonymity. -- MA

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:44 PM

It's worth remembering that when the Nazis hanged their own folks from bridges, they did not do so for crimes "against National Socialism" but for crimes against "The Fatherland". "Christians" burned heretics alive for the offence they allegedly caused to God. Salman Rushdie was sentenced to death for the offence he allegedly gave to Allah. Oppression is rarely carried out in the oppressor's own name! You all have your own ideas and beliefs about what you feel your country should represent. If you do not stand up for that, the resulting power vacuum will not necessarily be filled by the most scrupulous "patriots".

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:52 PM

RE Anonymity, EPIC noted this recent Supreme Court decision:

"Supreme Court Upholds Anonymity, Free Speech The Supreme Court ruled today that an ordinance requiring door-to-door petitioners to obtain a permit and identify themselves upon demand violates the right of anonymity inherent in the First Amendment freedom of speech. The Court stated that "it is offensive, not only to the values protected by the First Amendment, but to the very notion of a free society, that in the context of everyday public discourse a citizen must first inform the government of her desire to speak to her neighbors and then obtain a permit to do so." In November 2001, EPIC, the ACLU, and 14 legal scholars filed an amicus curiae brief (PDF), arguing that the ordinance implicates privacy, as well as the First Amendment rights of anonymity, expression, and freedom of association. See EPIC's Watchtower Bible Page for more information. (June 17)"

Source: http://www.epic.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: mack/misophist
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:25 AM

I THINK the man's name was Bonhoffer. I believe he was a clergyman in Hitler's Germany. I know he said:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 01:00 AM

Hey Joe! If the American Civil Liberties Union is opposed to it, it's GOT to be right, right? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: TeriLu
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 01:24 AM

The Patriot Game is a wonderful song about the dangers of patriotism. And a great American song is Phil Ochs, "Power and Glory". And for those of you who don't know about Scott Ritter and his message, look him up on the web. We just heard him speak the other night on why the US should not wage war on Iraq, and he is a very powerful and credible speaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 02:05 AM

Doug, I knew you were going to say that [grin].
-Joe Liberal-

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 10:10 AM

What happens, though, is nowadays when a good man tries to do something about evil, somebody starts crying about their rights being violated, or somebody files a lawsuit against him, or has him arrested, or something...

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:07 AM

Hi Kim:
I am not sure I get your point... When I hear that the present occupant of the White House says there are thousands of Al Quada supporters who "don't fit the profile" but facilitate their misdeads, I worry that he means lawyers like Lynne Stuwart, arrested for doing a lawyers job in what we believe to be a democratic republic, and then those, who like my self, defend her. It is begining to look a lot like McCarthism (can be sung to it is begining to look a lot like Christmas to keep this musical...)
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:08 AM

PS when the war was against Communisim, anyone who spoke out about sacred cows was a communisim, now the war is against terrorist Islamics and I am afraind anyone who speaks out for freedom will be branded an Islamic Terrorist or fellow traveler thereof... Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 01:29 PM

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedients, and by parts...the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

No it wasn't Dietrich Bonhoffer who said that first anyway. (Though he may well have quoted it. Here's some more about him, and his murder by the Nazis.

It was Edmund Burke MP. Who was, as it happens, a conservative - and he wouldn't have recognised a lot of people who use that term today as having anything in common with his political philosophy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:21 PM

Hi Larry - I wasn't referring to anyone specific. I guess probably a better way to explain it is to use the old adage, no good deed goes unpunished, and to say that maybe some good people are reluctant to attempt to triumph over evil, because they might get their pants sued off.

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: GUEST,A G.I. JOE
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 04:04 PM

Why don't these dis-satisifed REVOLTING people just leave the BAD OLD U.S. of A. ?
and become citizens of another country with more to offer than the U.S. of A.!

After all, the U. S. Of A. is a FREE COUNTRY
and you are FREE TO LEAVE ANYTIME!

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 07:18 PM

Not by me, Larry. :>) Joe: I'm glad I didn't shock you. :>) DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 09:36 AM

Hi DougR, You know I don't think you are of that ilk, though our guest GI Joke may well be. The folks I worry about are the ones with the power to bring charges against lawyers doing their jobs. As to the love it or leave nonsence, you have heard all the responces about good citizens being the ones who work to perfect our society - and the good parent analogy about the good parent recognising when the child is misbehaved, but jeeze, when you hear the same old hardhat bull from the same tired old voices, can't you come up with a new arguement G I Joke? Damn, that's getting old, face it, we have heard that shite ever since Goebles came up with it in 1933!
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:23 PM

Those who have the "Love it or leave it" attitude about America are often the ones who speak most proudly of America as the "land of the free."

Of course, if you want to exercise that freedom they cherish so dearly, they want to expel you from the country or put you in prison. I'm glad we have an American Civil Liberties Union. They may seem extreme at times, but remember that the ACLU did not write the Bill of Rights. It just works to remind the courts to enforce the rights guaranteed by our Constitution.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: BALLAD OF WILLIAM WORTHY (Phil Ochs)^^^
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 01:08 PM

Mmmmm ! Free to leave ?? Go to another country ???

BALLAD OF WILLIAM WORTHY
(Phil Ochs)
Well, it's of a bold reporter a story I will tell
He went down to the Cuban land, the nearest place to hell He'd been there many times before, but now the law does say
The only way to Cuba is with the CIA

CHORUS:
William Worthy isn't worthy to enter our door
Went down to Cuba, he's not American anymore
But somehow it is strange to hear the State
Department say
You are living in the free world, in the free world you must stay

Five thousand dollars or a five year sentence may well be
For a man who had the nerve to think that travelin' is free
Oh why'd he waste his time to see a dictator's reign
When he could have seen democracy by travelin' on to Spain?

CH.

So, come all you good travelers and fellow-travelers, too
Yes, and travel all around the world, see every country through
I'd surely like to come along and see what may be new
But my passport's disappearing as I sing these words to you

Well, there really is no need to travel to these evil lands
Yes, and though the list grows larger you must try to understand
Try hard not to worry if someday you should hear
That the whole world is off limits, visit Disneyland this year

CH.

Recorded on "All The News That's Fit to Sing"
Elektra EKL-269

With thanks to the Catter who posted these words about this time last year !!!

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: NicoleC
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 01:28 PM

That "Love It or Leave It" nonsense always pisses me off. I always want to tack a copy of the Constitution to the idiot's head who hides in refuge behind jingoism instead of mustering a decent arguement.

America has never been a great country because we are perfect -- our greatness lies in the fact that we continually question ourselves and strive for an perfectionist ideal that we may never reach. It is our civic duty to never cease questioning, assessing and criticizing our government and the actions that are taken in our name. It's called a "democracy." Silencing dissent tears away at the very foundation our our government.

Love it our leave it, i.e. agree with the government or else, is called a "dictatorship" or an "oligarchy."

N.

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 02:32 PM

Of course if that GI Joe approach had been applied back in the 18th Century - get out if you don't like the system - you Americans would still be subjects of the Queen of England (except she'd probably be called the Empress of America and would be resident in North America).

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 07:16 PM

McGrath beat me to it... I was sitting on a wooded hill today, in the Quaker grave yard, where we have a meeting for buisness once a year, and thinking of the graves going back to the 17th century and was reminded that we came here because we were religious non conformists, religious dissidents, as were most of the groups that made up this experiment, well, after a time, we seem to have attracted the same small minded conformists that we fled in England, and Holland and Germany, and now they are telling us get out. What else is new?
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Cities Revolt against US Patriot Act
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 07:53 AM

Couple of things:

Larry, it's interesting to think of how the ancestors of the people in Massachusetts treated your ancestors. Not quite in keeping with their latest resolution, was it?

GI Joe, maybe the people who are the most patriotic Americans are the ones who want Dubya to leave and live somewhere else - but I can assure you we don't want him here.

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Click for part 2