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Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War

Rich_and_Dee 14 Jan 03 - 02:20 PM
JedMarum 14 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM
JedMarum 14 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM
JedMarum 14 Jan 03 - 05:24 PM
Deckman 14 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM
JedMarum 14 Jan 03 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Q 14 Jan 03 - 06:25 PM
masato sakurai 14 Jan 03 - 06:45 PM
TNDARLN 14 Jan 03 - 07:58 PM
Deckman 14 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM
TNDARLN 14 Jan 03 - 09:02 PM
GUEST,Q 14 Jan 03 - 09:25 PM
Deckman 14 Jan 03 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 03:13 AM
Rich_and_Dee 15 Jan 03 - 10:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Jan 03 - 10:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Jan 03 - 10:51 AM
JedMarum 15 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM
Cluin 15 Jan 03 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 12:01 PM
Declan 15 Jan 03 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 15 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM
Declan 15 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 15 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM
UB Ed 15 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 15 Jan 03 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 15 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 15 Jan 03 - 02:50 PM
The Walrus 15 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 03:17 PM
Kim C 15 Jan 03 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 03:32 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Q 15 Jan 03 - 09:10 PM
Declan 16 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM
Uncle Jaque 16 Jan 03 - 08:14 AM
JedMarum 16 Jan 03 - 08:28 AM
JJ 16 Jan 03 - 08:34 AM
JedMarum 16 Jan 03 - 09:44 AM
Uncle Jaque 16 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM
Felipa 19 Jan 03 - 04:14 AM
nutty 19 Jan 03 - 05:22 AM
JedMarum 19 Jan 03 - 11:09 AM
dick greenhaus 19 Jan 03 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Laurie 19 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Laurie 19 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Q 19 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM
masato sakurai 26 Jan 03 - 11:55 PM
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Subject: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Rich_and_Dee
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 02:20 PM

Hi,

There are many references to songs composed and/or popularized during the American Civil War (1861-1865) by Irish immigrants.

Does anyone have examples of songs that may have been well-known to Irish immigrants to the northeastern US just before the start of the Civil War?

To humanize it, in a Boston Irish pub in 1859, if someone called on a singer to sing that old song they grew up with at Cork or Cavan, or wherever, what might that song have been?

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:16 PM

Certainly, COME TO THE BOWER was still popular, and KATHLEEN MAVOURNEEN was very popualr and became a CW "hit" for both sides.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:18 PM

verions of LAKES OF PONCHARTRAIN and the UNFORTUNATE RAKE were almost certainly being sung in many parst of the US, as well.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:24 PM

Harry McCarthy, born in England (1834) of Irish parents wrote one of the most popular songs of the CW, The Bonnie Blue Flag. Versions of this soong were sung by both sides.

John Thomas, (born in Wales) emmigrated to NY was an opera singer. He wrote THE SOLDIER'S RETURN, a popular song during the CW.

Patrick Sarsfield a native of Ireland, emmigrated to the Boston area and wrote WHEN JOHNNY COMES MARCHING HOME (under his psuedonym, "Louis Lambert").

There's probably lots of scholarly stuff on this subject - but these are few bi8ts of info I knew about ...


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

Hi Patrick ... How does "When Johhny Comes Marching Home Again" fit in with the Irish traditional song "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye?" THANKS, Bob


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:07 PM

I don't know if/how "Johnny Comes Marching Home " relates to "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye" - but Sarsfield published "When Johhny Comes Marching Home Again" in 1863.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:25 PM

The American Memory site has a list of "Greatest Hits,: 1820-1860.
Included are "The Lament of the Irish Immigrant" and "Low-Backed Car."
I haven't gone through the entire list. Of course, Kathleen Mavourneen is in it.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: masato sakurai
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:45 PM

The link is Greatest Hits, 1820-60 (Variety Music Cavalcade).


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: TNDARLN
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:58 PM

Deckman-
The two Johnny songs are virtually the same song: "We Hardly Knew Ye" is fairly grisly in describing why we hardly knew ye'!


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM

Is my memory accurate ... now there's a HUGE question ... when I think that "Johhny, I Hardley Knew Ye," was known in Ireland many years before America was born? Thanks, Bob


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: TNDARLN
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:02 PM

I was thinking it was from the 1798 Rebellion, or thereabouts...


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:25 PM

Harry McCarthy did not compose "Bonny Blue Flag" until 1861. Like "When Johnny---," it doesn't fit the request. Several of those we think of first don't meet Rich and Dee's conditions.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Deckman
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 09:31 PM

I'm quite certain that "Johnny I Hardly knew, Ye," predates "when Johhny Comes Marching Home Again" by many decades. Bob


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:02 AM

Deckman- Yes, "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" should be included.
There is a copy in the Bodleian on the same broadside as "The Wearing of the Green," dated ca. 1863-1885, which is interesting. Presumably that song came over as well before the War (Ballads Catalogue 2806 b.10(218), H. Such, London).


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:13 AM

Wearing of the Green- 1841 in a magazine; see thread.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Rich_and_Dee
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:31 AM

Hi,

It's interesting to me how Irish assimilation in the USA seems to begin with the legendary valor of the Irish troops during the Civil War.

When I first asked myself what songs these post-famine, pre-Civil War immigrants might have sung in Boston, NY or Philadelphia, the first
songs that came to mind were all written during or just after the War.

By 1852, Thomas Moore was dead, leaving behind tons of great songs.
Broadsides had been popular for ages as well. Still, when I informally try to think as far back as I can, I always begin with the Irish Brigade.

I haven't located, for example, songs originating during the famine years, or songs sung immediately after and referring to those years. We start seeing famine songs nearly a generation later. Interesting.

Rich


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:39 AM

DTStudy "Clares Dragoons" dated to circa 1840. see the thread for details.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:51 AM

The Wearing of the Green appears twice in the DT
Wearing of the Green
The Wearing of the Green (2)
And, as mentioned above, has been referred to in its own (short) thread. Help: Wearing of the Green Which merely refers the reader outside the 'Cat

Nigel


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

This is a new song based upon my research about the famine period - a civil war song. CLICK To LYRICS.

I have read a lot about the Irish in the Civil War. This was the experience of some of my Irish Catholic ancestors ... why did so many oin and fight so hard for a country to which they were not native?? There are a number of credible answers, I suppose - but the irish Catholics (in fact ANY Catholics) were exactly welcomed with open arms but pre-CW America. Some believe this helps explain their deep commitment to the US Civil War; they wanted to prove their value as US citizens.

Anyway - the new Irish arrivals fought fiercely, in great numbers, on BOTH sides.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 11:43 AM

It's by the hush, me boys...


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:01 PM

The "Wearing of the Green," printed by Such and in the Bodleian
Library (2806 b.10(218), is not the "Paddy, dear" song which I think is post-Civil War, nor the other version in the DT.
It has been posted by Gargoyle (24 June 99) in thread 11774, but never added to the DT, although it is, I think, the only pre-Civil War song of that name.
See: Wearing of the Green and other comments on that thread.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Declan
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:05 PM

This song dates back to the first half of the 19th century, although I have no idea whether it would ever have been sung in America. Reference to Ireland as 'there' may be an indication that it was being written/sung from a distance.

Shamrock Shore

The thread that this links to, which I hadn't seen before, I think is a good example of Mudcat at its best and most helpful, although a number of the major contributors had a bit of a gripe about the length of the list, and the delay in getting feedback they certainly produced the goods on most of the requested songs.

While there are many good songs on that thread I don't think many of the others are relevant to this thread - some are very recently composed songs.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM

The melody of "Bonnie Blue Flag" originally came from another song called "The Irish Jaunting Car."


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:14 PM

"Johnny Has Gone For a Soldier, Shool Agrah!" appeared in an American broadside (Marsan) in about 1860-1864. I believe it existed prior to that date. (Haven't gone to the threads on this, yet)


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Declan
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 12:48 PM

Napoleonic songs would probably still have been current with the Irish leaving for USA in the 1840s. A few examples are :

Bonny Bunch of Roses
Bonny Light Horseman
Plains of Waterloo


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:03 PM

Johnny Is Gone For A Soldier is the same as Buttermilk Hill (from 18th c.) which derives from Siul a Run.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:40 PM

No evidence for Buttermilk Hill being that old. See threads. But Siul a Run (pick your own spelling), is a golden oldie.


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Subject: Lyr Add: JOHNNY I HARDLY KNEW YE
From: UB Ed
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:50 PM

I couldn't find this in the DT (hope the breaks work!):

While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy, hurroo, hurroo
While goin' the road to sweet Athy
A stick in me hand and a drop in me eye
A doleful damsel I heard cry,
Johnny I hardly knew ye.

2. With your drums and guns and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo
With your drums and guns and drums and guns
The enemy nearly slew ye
Oh my darling dear, Ye look so queer
Johnny I hardly knew ye.

3. Where are your eyes that were so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your eyes that were so mild, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your eyes that were so mild
When my heart you so beguiled
Why did ye run from me and the child
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.

4. Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run, hurroo, hurroo
Where are your legs that used to run
When you went for to carry a gun
Indeed your dancing days are done
Oh Johnny, I hardly knew ye.

5. I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home, hurroo, hurroo
I'm happy for to see ye home
All from the island of Sulloon
So low in flesh, so high in bone
Oh Johnny I hardly knew ye.

6. Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg, hurroo, hurroo
Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg, hurroo, hurroo
Ye haven't an arm, ye haven't a leg
Ye're an armless, boneless, chickenless egg
Ye'll have to put with a bowl out to beg
Oh Johnny I hardly knew ye.

7. They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again, hurroo, hurroo
They're rolling out the guns again
But they never will take our sons again
No they never will take our sons again
Johnny I'm swearing to ye.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:57 PM

No evidence of Siul-Shool in America prior to the Civil War. But I would speculate that it came over with the immigration of the 1840s-1860s.
There is a parody, printed in Dublin in 1867. If I get time, I will put it in one of the Shul-Johnny has gone threads.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:03 PM

http://www.contemplator.com/folk/shulagra.html

http://www.contemplator.com/folk/johnny.html


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:35 PM

As I said before, there is no evidence that Buttermilk Hill is old; Contemplator has no evidence for it (nor has anyone else).
Again, no evidence of Shul in America before the Civil War, although I would guess that it was.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:47 PM

Guest,Q: thanks for the correction on 'wearin o' the green'; I would have cross-reff'd that thread if the spelling had matched, but I searched amd found a different thread.

How about joining us as a member, to allow PMs (personal messages).

CHEERS
Nigel


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 02:50 PM

Well, then, Q, you're going against an awful lot of people who have published books and made recordings, who say otherwise, including Alan Lomax, as referenced in another thread. Johnny/Buttermilk is generally regarded as being a variation of Siul a Run, which is generally regarded as going back to the late 17th century. Where do you reckon all these people got that idea, if there wasn't a smidge of truth to it?

You are probably aware that oral tradition can be very hard to document, especially in a time period where there were no recording devices. The manuscripts and broadsides we wish we had, sometimes simply don't exist. Take Soldier's Joy for instance. Like the song in question, it is believed to go back a couple hundred years - but I've never seen any period manuscripts for it. Does that mean it wasn't around?


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: The Walrus
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:06 PM

"Garryowen" predates the ACW by quite a time, as does "Savourneen deelish" (sp?) and any Irishman who'd served in the British Army during or after the Crimea and before the ACW would have heard "Cheer Boys, Cheer" (although they would probably have changed the words slightly (I can't see Irish emigrants singing "Farewell England, much as we may love you").

I hope these fit your criteria.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:17 PM

As I said before, Siul-Shule-- is old, but use of the word "Buttermilk" is not. Probably put in because some 20th century singer preferred it to "Younder" or "Portland" or whatever.
Oral or anecdotal tradition is just that. If the gap is large, it must be taken with a cellar of salt. If a song was popular, there is usually some evidence of it.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:24 PM

Okey dokey, fair enough.

Someone already mentioned Thomas Moore - "Endearing Young Charms" would be a good one.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:25 PM

"Soldier's Joy" - See Olson, Scarce Songs 1. An 18th century version is there. Several threads on it.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:32 PM

Nigel, I was a member. But I must have ticked someone off, because I received six days of messages with a virus. I was protected, so no damage, but I changed my email address, my passwords, etc., and vowed never again to join a group.
There are advantages- I do miss the PMs- but not again. There may be someone out there who is smarter than my viral protection.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:28 PM

I have added two more versions, one a "parridy," of Shule Agrah to thread 7985: Shule Agrah


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 09:10 PM

No one has mentioned "Over There" ("Over here"), or "Oh! potatoes they grow small over there!" This song was printed in 1844- See Thread 13830, where it was posted by Joe Offer (20 Sep 99) from the Levy Collection. See: Over There . No author, printed by Atwill, NY. This song is often taken as referring to the famine in Ireland, which it could do. Sometimes "praties" is used for potatoes, making it sound more Irish.

On the other hand, it could be totally American, the "Over There" referring to the next county or whatever. The ballad is called "One of the Olden Time," but no indication as to what this means.

Skibbereen" is about the famine, but doesn't seem to exist before 1915 (1910?). See thread 30772: Skibbereen
Nevertheless, it is beautifully sung by Sinead O'Connor in the cd "Long Journey Home."


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Declan
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 05:32 AM

Ub Ed,

Don't want to be picky, but the lyrics added above are Johnny I hardly knew you, and not When Johnny comes Marching Home which is another song to the same tune.

I don't know about the background of it, but from what I've heard of Johnny Comes Marching Home it was a song used in/by the army and would not have featured verses about the state in which many people arrive home from war. This particular Johnny couldn't have marched home because he "hasn't a leg".


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:14 AM

Quite a few of the traditional Fife tunes used in the Martial Field Musics (Fife & Drum Corps)of the US Military prior to and throughout the American Civil War (1861 - 5)had their origins in Irish Folk / fiddle Tunes of the period.

A few examples in the repitoire of the 3rd Maine Volunteer Infantry
Co. "A", 3rd MAINE VOLUNTEERS
Regimental Field Music (Reenacting)
Third Maine REGIMENTAL FIELD MUSIC

include:

Minstrel Boy

GarryOwen (Favorite of General Custer of the 7th US Cavalry, and unofficial theme song of the US Cavalry to this day)

My Lodging's on the Cold, Cold, Ground (Melody used for "Endearing Young Charms"). That was part of the US Army's official "Retreat" or "Tattoo" cerimony during and probably before the ACW.

"Low-Backed Riding / Irish Jaunting Car" - Tune later applied to "Bonny blue Flag", previously mentioned.

Remember, if you will, that melodies and lyrics didn't really marry one another all that often back then, and the better ones tended to have lots of intriguing affairs.

"Paddy On A Handcar"; a catchy little ditty. Has anyone ever seen lyrics to that one?

"College Hornpipe", better known as "Sailor's HP". I think that's Irish(?)

"Wearing of the Green", of course, as well as some others I can't specifically recal at the moment, and can't seem to locate my reprint of the 1863 Field Music Manual by Bruce and Emmitt (the same Dan Emmitt of Minstrel Fame).

"Danny Boy". Is that Scots or Irish; I forget... of course there was probably some musical / cultural overlap between the two. We do a somewhat "jazzed up" arrangement to a marching cadence, as well as a traditional slow air for Tattoo.

Several other Traditional Fife Tunes of Irish origin may be found by a perusal of the "Company Of Fifers And Drummer" Collection @:

Fife & Drum Music OnLine

And for all you Fiddlers out there; most Fife Music is written in one or two sharps ("D" or "G") which we understand is familiar to Fiddlers as well as Fifers.

As far as "Civilian" popular music goes, don't forget that "The Last Rose Of Summer" was around just before the War and was fairly popular for a while there. If that wasn't written by an Irishman, the early Irish seem to have taken to it fairly well, and it is best, i think, when sung by an Irish Tenor.

Someone mentioned Prof. Andre Crouch's "Kathleen Mavourneen" written in Ireland in the 1840's, about which I think there has been at least one MC thread in the past.
Used in the Movie "Gettysburg" (a snippet thereof) it is a lovely piece when done well...and that is not an easy task.
If you want to sing it credibly, you'd better be able to hit about 3 octaves and do some vocal gymnastics while you're at it.
It's one I like to attempt while taking a shower or driving (alone) just to see if I can. I sing Baritone, so have to transpose it down a notch so as to fit it all in to what range I've got - I think that it was written with a Tenor in mind, though.

I don't suppose that such "Composed" popular pieces really qualify as "Folk Music" per se., but it seems to me that after the passage of a Century or more there may be a certain modicum of cross-over.
What do you think?

By the time of the ACW, the Irish culture was having a significant impact on American art, culture and music - so sorting it out may not always be easy. Perhaps one of the richest gifts the Irish brought to a young and tempestuous America besides their Music, was their PASSION. Civilization just isn't much fun without some passion, now, is it?

It seems that a lot of that raw primal passion was most eloquently expressed in the Songs they brought over with them.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:28 AM

Kathleen Mavourneen is a simply beautiful melody. It is no wonder it was so popular with the soldiers.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JJ
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 08:34 AM

There is a bizarre moment in "Gangs of New York" (the 1863 part) when the band, bid by Bill the Butcher to play something at a Nativist rally -- the Nativists hate the Irish literally to death -- strikes up "Garryowen."

I don't know if this is commentary or a whopping error.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:44 AM

I believe it was NOT an error. The Butcher was a conflicted and ignorant guy. He would not have known the song's origin and would not have suspected ...


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 01:04 PM

... Another indication of what a powerful social factor Music has been for probably about as long as Homo Sapiens has been schlepping around on this Planet.

I have yet to see the "Gangs" flic, but intend to.
The subtle cultural reversal of "GarryOwen" as alluded to here reminds me of a story i saw on TV (supposedly true) of a Scots Piper who was captured at a Castle his Clan was trying to hold while the rest of the Clan was out looting & plundering or whatever.
His Captors forced him to play from the tower as his Clan's fleet sailed back in so as to lure them into a trap; he instead played an air that his friends recognized as a warning, and escaped.
The infuriated foe cut off the Pipers hands in retaliation, and he died a few days later. A skeleton was recently discovered at the Castle with it's hands missing, which tends to lend credence to the ledgend.

The communicative power of Music is one of those things I think we oftimes overlook.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: Felipa
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 04:14 AM

see messages in Siúl a rúin thread for arguments that versions of the song were song in America since time of American revolution.

someone mentioned Lakes of Pontchartrain. not an Irish song, I think - though recorded by Paul Brady both in English and in (recent)translation to Irish Gaelic


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: nutty
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 05:22 AM

The Music for the Nation (American Sheet Music) site .....especially the section 1820-1860 may provide you with some clues ...... this site does include folk songs as well as others

sheet music


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:09 AM

While it was most likely a US song in origin, there are musicologists who claim Lakes of Pontchartrain is an Irish melody, whether it was composed in Ireland or not. It is certain that it was sung by the Irish sailors and immigrants - travellers between the countries (US and Ireland). There is no doubt it was sung by Irish on both sides of the Atlantic for generations.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:30 AM

Jed-
I know at least three completely different melodies to Lakes of Pontchartrain. One that's popular today is a variant of Tramps and Hawkers (Scottish), but I have no idea of what it was sung to back then.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Laurie
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:16 PM


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Laurie
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 12:26 PM

In 1807-08 Thomas Moore published a number of poems set to old Irish airs in a set of volumes titled "Irish Melodies". Among the more popular songs were "Believe Me if All Those Endearing Young Charms" and "The Minstrel Boy". I wonder how old songs like "Cockles and Mussles", "The Holy Ground" and "I Know Where I'm Going" are? They are usually listed as "traditional".


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 19 Jan 03 - 01:53 PM

The first published date for "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" is 1863, sheet music and broadsides at American Memory. "Words and Music by Louis Lambert," pseudonym for Patrick Sarsfield, 1829-1892.
As Declan says, it is a welcome song, meant to be gay, only the tune re-used.


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Subject: RE: Irish/USA songs before USA Civil War
From: masato sakurai
Date: 26 Jan 03 - 11:55 PM

These books may help:

William H.A. Williams, 'Twas Only an Irishman's Dream: The Image of Ireland and the Irish in American Popular Song Lyrics, 1800-1920 (Univ. of Illinois Press, 1996) [esp. section 2: "Romantic Irish Popular Songs in Antebellum America"]

Charles Hamm, Yesterdays: Popular Song In America (Norton, 1979) [esp. chapters 3 ("Erin, the Tear and the Smile in Thine Eyes; or, Thomas Moore's Irish Melodies in America") and 8 ("Come Back to Erin: or, More Gems from the British Isles")]

Robert R. Grimes, S.J., How Shall We Sing in a Foreign Land?: Music of Irish Catholic Immigrants in the Antebellum United States (Univ. of Notre Dame Press, 1996)

~Masato


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