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A chord by any other name..

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GUEST 29 May 03 - 12:49 AM
C-flat 29 May 03 - 03:40 AM
Steve Parkes 29 May 03 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,Songster Bob 29 May 03 - 12:50 PM
M.Ted 29 May 03 - 03:20 PM
M.Ted 29 May 03 - 03:28 PM
GUEST 29 May 03 - 09:09 PM
Steve Parkes 30 May 03 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,Banjoman 30 May 03 - 05:50 AM
Steve Parkes 30 May 03 - 10:18 AM
Frankham 30 May 03 - 08:15 PM
GUEST 30 May 03 - 10:03 PM
M.Ted 30 May 03 - 10:41 PM
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Subject: A chord by any other name..
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 03 - 12:49 AM

I was learning a blues-based tune the other day and ran across a new way - for me - to play a familiar chord (B7). 5th sring = D#; barre across the 4th, 3rd and 2nd strings at the fourth fret; 1st string = A. What I am wondering is this:

a) in technical terms, is this an inverted chord? Or is it just a B7 in a position other than nut position?

b) If it's not an inverted chord, what - in layman's terms - is the definition of an inverted chord?

c) Is there a methodical way to discover these kinds of chords, aside from randomly hunting for various combinations of (in the case of B7) B;D#;F#;A all over the fretboard?

d) do you have a favorite alternate fingering for a particular chord that you'd like to share with the group today?

Now back to your regularly scheduled program, and Thanks!!


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: C-flat
Date: 29 May 03 - 03:40 AM

What you've done is to play a typical A7 shape(normally played x02223) and raised it two frets to a B7. If you were using a capo then all six strings would be raised a tone, enabling you to play the 5th string as the root note (B). As it is, this shape is OK provided you don't hit the open 5th or 6th and is a simple but effective step up and down from A7 to B7.
Any chord that contains few open strings can be moved up and down the neck to create other chords. The D chord (xx0232) played two frets up at the 4th becomes E ,at the 7th=G, etc.
The key to getting the most from these new chords is to find a way to include the missing bass notes.(sometimes impossible!)
Another nice chord to move around is C7 (x32310).As you go up the neck it creates a couple of sweet sounds, (076750)is a ringing E chord).
Changing this shape slightly (and getting more complicated) opens up yet more doors.
Using the basis of the C7 chord but changing the fingering around to play the 2nd string at the third fret (x3233x) and leaning the little finger across to catch the 1st string (x32333) gives you one of the best and most moveable jazz/blues chords you'll ever use!
The root of the chord is on the A string so if the chord is played at the 5th fret, A string played at the 5th fret = D, Your chord is Db9.


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 29 May 03 - 05:35 AM

And I'll try and explain "inversion". If you play the notes C E & G on a piano (which has one key for each note -- dead simple!), then the chord -- C major -- starts on the first note of the scale of C maj. If you play (in ascending order of pitch) E G C, it's still a C maj chord, but an inversion of it; so is G E C. [I'm running out of technicalterms here, but someone will come and give you the correct inversion numbers.] On a guitar, it's not quite so simple, as you may find you can't get all the notes in sequence: for instance, you might play G C E G C E, or you might play E (open) C E G C G; or you might play a barre A-shape at the third fret G C G C E C. Or ... well, it depends how many frets you have on your fingerboard! You can choose a chord that gives you just the sound you want at that point in the song/tune, or you can choose the chord that fits in best with the fingering either side in the tune; it depends on a number of things, such as the style you play -- melodic, strumming, pattern-picking, and(when all's said and done) what you're hapiest with.

Steve

BTW, we're all friends here, so what would you like us to call you?


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 29 May 03 - 12:50 PM

Right. All chord positions are inversions, in a way, and in fact, there are only three (per type of chord -- major, minor, etc.). To elucidate:

C major is C,E,G. On the guitar, the basic chord inversion for C is GCE (first three strings only). That has the tonic note -- C -- on the second string, with the 5th below (G) and the 3rd above (E).

In tablature, that's 010 (3rd string to 1st).

If you find the G note on the 1st string, the E note on the second, and the C note on the third, you get CEG (553), where the tonic note is on the third string.

All that remains is to find a position where the tonic is on the 1st string, and that occurs at the 8th fret, where you get EGC -- 988, in tab. If you've played guitar very long at all, you'll notice that these three positions (I'll use tab notation for all of them, now) are:

010 / 553 / 988

But the forms look like "other chords" you know. That high one is the top of the "F" position, the middle one is an "A" position raised 3 frets, and the first one is actually the "D" position DOWN two frets. So the three "inversion" positions are the D, A, and F positions, moved about on the fingerboard to give you the C chord. Note, however, that the F position is really an E, moved up by one fret, so the main inversions of all major chords are simply A, D, and E, moved about the fingerboard to where they're needed.

If you learn how to play these three positions, using barre chords, you'll never get very lost on the guitar fingerboard.

Similar examination will reveal that the minor chords have the same three basic positions, and that Em, Am, and Dm will suit as your starting positions wherever you need 'em. Ditto for the 7th positions.

And if you're in a situation where the whole chord is not needed, you can use the top three strings and play whole songs with just ONE position, moved up or down as required (provided you don't need the dominant chord to be a 7th). It can be boring, yes, but it will be musically correct.

Now, the other kinds of chords one encounters, especially diminished and augmented, have different inversions. The diminished chord, for example, has only ONE inversion, but that one position has FOUR names for each fret it sits on. To wit: 2323 is, simultaneously, an Edim, Bbdim, C#dim, and Gdim. Move it up three frets and you get the same three chords! Try it with the "and then ... and then ... and then ..." from "Along Came Jones" (an old r 'n r song). Play the starting position, and move up three frets for the next "and then ..." and do it four times in one octave.

The augmented position has only three notes, not four, and repeats itself every four frets, if I recall. I don't have my guitar here at work to check myself, but I think I'm right. Try 4332 for this one.

Now, have I confused every one?



... Then my work here is done.


Happy picking!

Bob Clayton


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 May 03 - 03:20 PM

If SongsterBob hasn't frightened you away, let me add a couple things--

First: yes, the thing you have listed is an inversion,--

Second--, as to the names of the inversions:

Major and minor chords have three notes in them. (To make it easier to see the relationships, chord structure and music theory are generally explained in the key of "C" ) A "C" chord from low to high, is C-E-G, which is called the triad, the first inversion makes the C the highest note: E-G-C, and the second inversion moves the E above as well: G-C-E--The first inversion is sometimes called a 6/3 chord, and the Second inversion is sometimes called a 6/4--Seventh chords, or dominant seventh chords, have four notes, and it is assumed in the naming that the seventh step falls at the top--

Third--In naming chords and inversions, it is always assumed that all the notes of the triad fall within an octave(close harmony) which allows no duplication of notes--this is often impossible on the guitar, because of the peculiarities of string placement, so guitar chords are often "open" harmony--

Fourth--Guitar "Chords" can have up to six notes in them, so they actually contain several inversions--technically, these are "voicings" rather than merely chords or inversions--

Your chord contains both the First and Second inversions in an open voicing with with the seventh on top--


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 May 03 - 03:28 PM

To be clear about the seventh chord and it's inversions(in the key of C, the seventh chord is a G7):

G7: G-B-D-F
Ist:B-D-F-G
2nd:D-F-G-B
3rd:F-G-B-D

As you can see, your chord isn't really there--to create it, you'd have to take the second inversion and put the F on top, then add the third below that. Easy to do, harder to explain==


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 03 - 09:09 PM

Steve - call me ...enlightened! Thanks 2 all for their input.


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:12 AM

Guest, if you learned it from me, it's not enlightenment but a new dimension of ignorance!

Steve


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 30 May 03 - 05:50 AM

Great thread - well done to those of you who were able to write in such clear terms. As for myself, I always was a three corder and learnt at a very young age to move them around a lot. Works pretty well on the banjo although the advantage is being in an open cord tuning (makes life easier.
Thanks again for interesting info


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:18 AM

Ah, the banjo is an excellent instrument for that: only four string (one for each finger) and lots and lots and lots of frets.


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: Frankham
Date: 30 May 03 - 08:15 PM

Hi,

(a) both. It's a B7 chord with the third in the bass and the seventh on top. It's used in blues by Big Bill Broonzy and others.

(b) See (a)

(c) The way the notes are distributed in the chord is referred to as the "voicing" of the chord. These are represented by various chord shapes over the neck of the guitar. Some of these "shapes" are more usable than others depending of course on the style of music. The usuable chords can often be found in some chord "dictionaries". Theoretically any combination of B,D#,F# and A will spell a B7 chord regardless of the order of the notes (voicing) or the position of the fingers on the guitar neck.

One thing you might consider as well is a uke book which tends to show usuable seventh chords on the top four string of your guitar.
Then match the same voicing on the 2,3,4,and 5 strings of the guitar.

Here's one problem, the chord that you picked is only really usable in the position that you have it. If you were to try to play the same chord using the 2,3,4,and 6 strings, it would be a difficult shape to play. That's what I mean by usable chords.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:03 PM

Yeah, But playing it on the 1-5 strings as I had originally posted, I can slide that sucker all up and down the neck like nobody's business! I'll leave 2,3,4, and 6 to the pretzel twisters... Thanx Frank.


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Subject: RE: A chord by any other name..
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:41 PM

With all due respect, guest, that chord is kind of sour sounding--good for a passing chord, but with the third on the bottom you've got a real noticable augmented fifth/minor6th sound--


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