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Our Friend the movable B7 chord.

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Rick Fielding 12 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM
GUEST 12 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM
Jon Freeman 12 Mar 01 - 04:32 PM
Rick Fielding 12 Mar 01 - 04:35 PM
jeepman (inactive) 12 Mar 01 - 05:06 PM
Wesley S 12 Mar 01 - 05:22 PM
catspaw49 12 Mar 01 - 05:35 PM
Bert 12 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM
Murray MacLeod 12 Mar 01 - 06:03 PM
Murray MacLeod 12 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM
Matt_R 12 Mar 01 - 06:10 PM
rangeroger 12 Mar 01 - 06:14 PM
Mark Clark 12 Mar 01 - 06:20 PM
Giac 12 Mar 01 - 08:12 PM
Amos 12 Mar 01 - 08:21 PM
John Hardly 12 Mar 01 - 09:19 PM
Mark Clark 12 Mar 01 - 09:23 PM
ddw 12 Mar 01 - 09:32 PM
Rick Fielding 13 Mar 01 - 12:43 AM
Matt_R 13 Mar 01 - 12:48 AM
ddw 13 Mar 01 - 12:59 AM
Mark Clark 13 Mar 01 - 01:57 AM
Rick Fielding 13 Mar 01 - 02:15 AM
Boredatwork 13 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM
CamiSu 13 Mar 01 - 10:37 AM
bflat 13 Mar 01 - 11:44 AM
Rick Fielding 13 Mar 01 - 12:28 PM
Matt_R 13 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 01 - 12:44 PM
Mark Clark 13 Mar 01 - 01:20 PM
GUEST 13 Mar 01 - 02:12 PM
Grab 13 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM
Mooh 13 Mar 01 - 04:10 PM
Rick Fielding 13 Mar 01 - 04:38 PM
Big Mick 13 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Mar 01 - 01:34 AM
granny 14 Mar 01 - 01:04 PM
granny 14 Mar 01 - 01:10 PM
mousethief 14 Mar 01 - 02:50 PM
Rick Fielding 15 Mar 01 - 01:34 AM
GUEST 15 Mar 01 - 09:57 AM
CamiSu 15 Mar 01 - 10:19 AM
Jim the Bart 15 Mar 01 - 10:52 AM
granny 15 Mar 01 - 11:16 AM
Rick Fielding 15 Mar 01 - 11:47 AM
Lonesome EJ 16 Mar 01 - 12:37 AM
Rick Fielding 16 Mar 01 - 12:45 AM
GUEST 16 Mar 01 - 05:59 AM
Rick Fielding 16 Mar 01 - 12:59 PM
Matt_R 16 Mar 01 - 01:09 PM
Roger in Sheffield 16 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM
Roger in Sheffield 16 Mar 01 - 01:43 PM
Steve Latimer 16 Mar 01 - 01:46 PM
GUEST 16 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM
Justa Picker 16 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM
Rick Fielding 16 Mar 01 - 06:42 PM
Matt_R 16 Mar 01 - 06:57 PM
Lady McMoo 16 Mar 01 - 07:12 PM
Matt_R 16 Mar 01 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,marty D 17 Mar 01 - 01:46 AM
John Hardly 17 Mar 01 - 09:56 AM
Peter T. 17 Mar 01 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,marty D 17 Mar 01 - 02:22 PM
Matt_R 17 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM
Justa Picker 17 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,marty D 17 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM
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53 01 Apr 02 - 10:44 PM
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Rick Fielding 02 Apr 02 - 09:31 AM
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Subject: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM

Howdy. Just felt like starting a thread today, and although I considered several options, namely:

"Dollar Stores" are you hooked like I am? (and do you have them in Britain or Oz?)

"Welcome Mav to BUSHWHACKED XXXIV" (that'll get him to take part in your discussion)

"Will this F*****G winter ever end, so Duckboots can start gardening"?

.....I settled on this one which might actually be USEFULL if someone's sittin' around deciding whether to vacuum or mess with their guitar.

*******************

Moving the B7 around to get some lovely sounding chords is pretty automatic for most folks who've been playing for a long time, but if you haven't done it yet, you're in for a treat.

Start with your basic B7 (don't worry about the 6th string) and now slide the whole position up to the 6th and 7th fret. Play all six strings. It becomes a really resonant E7.

Move the whole chord up to the 11th and 12th frets. It's a nice sounding A9th (with a lower "B" note). Lift off the middle finger and it's even more resonant with the open A string.

If you like this kind of noodling around, move your little finger from the 1st string to the 2nd string, and only play the 5th to 2nd strings. You can now move the chord wherever you want for a good 9th chord. Now play it using all six strings. Some frets it works on, some it doesn't. Play it again using the 5th to 1st. Once again some frets will work, others won't. You'll get some great sounds.

Many years ago I saw Joni Mitchell use this approach to come up with very different sounding inversions.

If anyone else has some moveable shapes that sound nice, let's see 'em. I love finding new sounds by accident.

Rick

(although I actually WOULD like to know if there are "Dollar stores" outside the US and Canada)


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM

Isn't the version of "Nine Pound Hammer" that Tom Rush did, having rip...I mean learned it from Merle Travis, essentially walking that chord form up the neck?

Peter


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:32 PM

I love the A9th.

Jon (who knows few chords outside the open ones)


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 04:35 PM

Darn right it is Peter. I've stol..er ammended that lick myself for "David and Goliath". Also for "Railroad Blues". Have you ever actually SEEN Merle do that lick? I saw it on an old black and white film. The man was SMOOTH!!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: jeepman (inactive)
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:06 PM

Thanks Rick. I will leave my newly re-worked capo off and try this. Jman


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:22 PM

I love sliding a basic E formation up 5 frets until you get some sort of A2. Nice and open sounding.

Also your basic C chord with the pinkie picking up the G note on the third fret on the high E string makes for an easy E flat if you slide it up 4 {?} frets. Not the best E flat chord but it will do in a pinch. Esp. if you're doing "Baby Let Me Follow You Down".


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:35 PM

Wes, that "slid-up E" works real well on Dylan's "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues."

The B7 is pretty cool Rick......mucho grassyass

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 05:54 PM

Dammit Rick! that B7 was bad enough BEFORE you started moving it around.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 06:03 PM

Playing a normal G chord, and sliding up four frets so you get a nice fat B on the bass string as well as a nice treble one on the first string, then changimg to C, works well on a lot of songs, and has almost become my trade-markrk cliche. You have to mute the fifth string, of course.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM

And yes, we do have dollar stores in Britain, Rick, (or we did when I lived there) I think they were called "Poundstretcher"

Murray


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 06:10 PM

Sliding the basic E shape from it's normal position, up to the 5th fret, down to the 4th, down to the 3rd, and back to normal is the chord progression used for the acoustic guitar lines from Creed's "In America".


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: rangeroger
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 06:14 PM

I love playing the blues in E using a B7 at the 6th and 7th frets as a base. An E7 formation at the same place gives the A7,then slide that up two frets for the B7.

Works real well with 2 guitars when the other one is playing standard E7,A7,B7.

rr


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 06:20 PM

Thanks for this thread, Rick. I'm still at the office and need to run home and pick up a guitar in order to join in the fun.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Giac
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 08:12 PM

Thanks, Rick, just what I needed for a rainy day, or two, or all week ...


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 08:21 PM

That full C7 formation on the 5th fret gives you a great shot at a rocking bass by alternating your ring finger on the A and E strings. A good starting point for some Motown or similar bluesy numbers like Walking the Dog, Mojo Working, and Seventh Son.

LOVE them choons.

A


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 09:19 PM

Fm7,Am7 work in several places.

Nice thread and tips, Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 09:23 PM

Wesley almost hit this one before I got to it. It's a movable seventh based on the standard 1st position C7 chord. Make a C7 using the four "inside" strings. Now move your fourth finger (pinky) over to G on the E string as Wesley described. Now move your ring finger over to play Bb on the G string---the position your pinky just vacated. Now for the fun part... use your thumb to catch both the G on the bass E string and C on the A string. Viola [sic]! A movable seventh chord.

In the film Rick mentioned (I imagine it's the same one), you'll see Merle using that seventh chord instead of a straight C as he plays "Nine Pound Hammer" in (thumbed) G. You'll also find this chord, at the 5th-7th frets, working as an E7 chord as the very first chord in "Deep River Blues" the way I remember Doc Watson playing it.

Blind Gary Davis used this chord a lot and Ike Everly, in the short bits from the Everyly Brothers Reunion video, seemed to use it quit a bit. Very handy for thumb pickers and finger pickers because it lets you maintain your bass line.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: ddw
Date: 12 Mar 01 - 09:32 PM

Rick,

You asked for "slidable" chords, so I tho't I'd jump in with one of my favorites — the D. Slide it up to the 7th fret and you've got G, up to the 9th and you've got A. You can vary things nicely with the "long" A (barring the first four strings and getting the 5th fret A note) or A7 (bar 1-4S, G note on the 1S) configurations. Sliding the long A up to the 7F and 10F gives you a D and dropping the 10F note down to the 8F gives you a D7. I don't do it, but you could throw your moveable B7 to the 9&10F for another G form. Lots of picking potential up there.

david


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:43 AM

Damn!! This is what I love about the guitar. You can play it for umpteen million years and you still don't exhaust the possibilities. I've picked up two tricks from the thread already!

Here's one we've talked about before but it's still a good'un.

Take a standard "D" chord...but..play it on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings....doesn't sound like much. Now slide it up to the 5th and 6th frets....Voila! Robert Johnson's A7th. It's the unison on the 1st and 2nd string that makes it. Simple eh? Took me twenty nine years to learn it (by accident) Now move it three frets higher. Bit of a discord but sounds great in a blues.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:48 AM

The acoustic guitar intro part of ELO's "Summer and Lightning" has the sliding D shape...from normal position D, to 9th fret, to 7th, and back to 9th. A really fun chord progression to play!


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: ddw
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:59 AM

That D chord up the neck sounds even better in a drop-D tuning, but the G at the lower end is a little hinkey to get into. You have to play the 1&2S at 3F, 3S open, 4S 4F, 5&6S 5F. It's very similar to a 6-string C chord, only you fret the 1S at the 3F.

Great thundering bass, tho'.

david


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 01:57 AM

Great stuff here for sure. I'll have to maintain a pointer to this thread for future reference.

You can take the F#7 chord that Rick mentioned ("Take a standard "D" chord...but..play it on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings....") but use your second, third and fourth fingers to make it. This will leave your index finger free to add the F# on the bass E string. The A string is damped out by touching it with the index finger. This gives you a great sliding or movable 7th chord. Here it is one fret higher as a G7 chord. Very closely related to this fingering are the movable sixth and movable Maj7 chords.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 02:15 AM

Should have mentioned that on tonight's radio show, we had Darcy Wickham, one of Canada's premiere fingerstylists. Since we both teach as well as perform, we got talking about the continuing process of learning...and simply what fun it is. We've both picked up a lot from our students along the way. Darcy's got a neat new album out, but I'm not sure if it's available in the States or Britain yet. If I can con him into visiting Mudcat he'd be a good addition to the "tech-nurd" threads.

He has an interesting tuning method. Seems complicated but it ain't. I'll try and get him to spell it out.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Boredatwork
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM

Okay... Try this 'un...

Make a regular Barre F chord form but instead of holding down the 1,2 & 6 strings with a full barre, hold down just the 6th string, leaving the B and high E open. It sounds nice at several places along the neck, particularly frets 3 & 5.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: CamiSu
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 10:37 AM

Wonderful! Now I have to go get my guitar and try all this out, tho Mark C's suggestion about bringing your thumb aroundwouldn't work for me as I have fairly small hands and a big neck on my guitar. Oh well.

BUT!!! It's snowing again! school is alread not getting out til June 20! Much as I've loved this winter full of white stuff, I'm ready for MUD!

There, Rick, now we've covered 3 of your topics!

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: bflat
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 11:44 AM

Great thread. I'm studying classical and don't spend much time working on my chords. This is an incentive to get back equally to that effort and play my steel stringed guitars. Keep it comin' and a huge thanks.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:28 PM

Hi CamiSu. The whole "thumb on the 6th string" thing has been one of my favourite obsessions over the years. Lemme explain a bit.

First of all, if you CAN use your thumb, it gives you a number of options that simply aren't available in "full barre" position. I sat with somebody once who uses only "correct" barre chords, and he insisted that anything I could do with "Clutch chords" (using the thumb on the bass, he could do the standard way). He was way more advanced than I in the use of "classical figures, and positions" and certainly managed to replicate many of my positions using his style, except where speed and a moving bass line was needed. The big problem simply was that I really love blues and ragtime music where a syncopated bass line can be crucial, and that wasn't his thing at all. He wasn't familiar with the playing of Blind Blake, Blind boy Fuller, Reverend Gary Davis, Jorma Kaukonen, merle Travis etc. and these players are some of my favourites. I've adapted aspects of their styles to use in all of my music....while at the same time, I'm not familiar enough with how Julian Bream, Bola Sete, Luis Bonfa, John Williams etc. to use some of their tricks...and he is. For us to have actually accomplished something with our little mutual challenge, he'd have to have WANTED to play "St Louis Tickle" (for example) and I'd have to have WANTED to play "Girl From Ipanema" etc.

So bottom line is that His style worked for him and mine works for me......BUT.........

It has nothing (in 90% of cases) to do with how big or small your hands are (or even whether you have a big guitar neck). I have smaller hands than most of my students, and can easily manage fretting the sixth string (and often the fifth...although that took work!) even on a classical guitar. It's a matter of "hand angle" and gaining wrist flexibility. Getting your hand to (sort of) "slide back and forth" around the neck. Takes a bit of work, but not that much really (nowhere near as hard as learning that first "F" chord! The biggest obstacle I've found is having the person allow (if were using an "F" chord, with the thumb on the sixth string) themselves a couple of days of "muffled messy sounding Fs". By the third day, you hand will start to adapt, and by about the fourth, it'll sound fine, and you'll have added not only a six string full sounding "F", but by making it a movable chord, you'll have F#, G, Ab, A, and Bb, all from one position. That's when you go out for a celebratory drink!!

Now my problem today, is that I've got to get some work done but I'm gonna get the guitar out and start workin' on some of these neat positions. I think it's safe to say that all of us in this thread should have been born wealthy with huge amounts of time to lay around and play guitar!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM

Anyone with me in nominating this for PermaThread status?


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 12:44 PM

C9 at the first position (i.e. C,E,A#,D,G - with the A#,D,G as a "mini-barre" made with the ring finger bent back at the first joint on the third fret) is a moveable chord all up and down the neck, used in lots of blues tunes...

You can get really twisted and play the C9 with your little finger making a mini-barre on the fourth fret across the bottom two strings(some sort of augmented ninth?)...theoretically moveable but kind of hard to get all four of your fingers (especially the pinky) to move in sync up and down the neck...

Same twisted deal with barre F7 at the nut: make F7 and stretch the pinky to the fourth fret and make a mini-barre across the bottom two strings. Don't know what this is called, either...maybe "weird F blues chord" - again, theoretically moveable, but hard to get the pinky to cooperate... The good thing about this chord is it gets easier to make the further up on the neck you go...


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 01:20 PM

Thread creep alert.

I found a link to Dave Van Ronk's "St. Louis Tickle" and thought some folks might be interested. Thanks, Rick, for reminding me of that one. The page begins with "The Entertainer" but be patient, you'll find SLT at the bottom... eventually.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 02:12 PM

...And still other weird moveable chords found in modern electric blues tunes:

starting at the fifth fret play open fifth string A; G (4th string, 5th fret); C# (3rd string, 6th fret); F# and B (ring finger makes a mini-barre across the bottom two strings at the 7th fret)...I mash my index and middle fingers across all the strings below - it seems easier to make this chord this way than trying to note each individual string, and it doesn't affect the mini-barre at the 7th fret...don't know what this one is called either, but this "bastard A" can be moved up two frets to make a "bastard B", and you can reach around with your thumb and catch B on the sixth string at the 7th fret(and not playing the open A string) ....move this mess up to the 12th fret and you have a "bastard E" playing open E sixth string or noted at the 12th fret again with your thumb (again not playing the open A string)... "bastards" E-A-B make for a "bastard" I-IV-V progression...

Minor sixths sometimes show up in the classier blues tunes. Here's a moveable (inverted?) minor sixth, starting at the nut, Gm6: A#(fifth string, 1st fret); E (fourth string, 2nd fret);A#,D,G (mini-barre made with the ring finger at the 3rd fret across the bottom three strings). Moveable up and down the neck...

Bored rhythm players must invent these twisted chords while comping behind some white hot guitar solos....


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Grab
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM

My fave is x2323x - like a diminished chord shifted one string down. That works in several positions, and it sounds lovely. Don't ask me what it's called though. Come to that, diminished chords are about the ultimate movable chord anyway, aren't they?

Grab.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 04:10 PM

There's so many examples of this it would be hard to nail 'em all down.

The standard tuning open position Dm, when moved up two frets becomes Em with the root on the open 6th string. Similarly the D and D7 chords. Avoid the 5th string unless you like the sound of it.

The standard tuning open position C, when moved up two frets becomes a D. Avoid the third string unless you want the Dsus4 inversion thing happening. Avoid the first string unless you want a 9th sort of thing, or fret it at the 5th fret.

The B7 example of Rick's is good. I've always used that chord shape at the third fret for a C#7, and at the 6th for E7, and at the 9th for G7.

Speaking of G's, move that C I mentioned to the eighth fret and you've got G, then add your pinky to the first string tenth fret.

If you've a cutaway, or are more acrobatic than most, moving open chords up a full octave exploits the range of the guitar, a pseudo 12 string.

The trick is to take any chord and move it around, experimenting with various strings to find something tone-worthy, or simply play the fretted notes for another alternative. Breaking a chord into upper and lower halves and playing it with the remaining strings sounding open will be useful. Various 5 (power) chords among others work well this way.

Don't discard a chord until you've heard it strummed, arpeggiated, fingerpicked, flatpicked, bottlenecked, etc. Often a chord shape will work best for you one way but maybe not another.

Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 04:38 PM

Thank you Matt.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

As the senior Big Mick in these parts, I second the nomination of this to Permathread status as my little brother Matt R has suggested. Most of the time when Rick does one of these types of discussions I just sit back and learn. Such is the case here. I have had the advantage of listening to great players teach old Mick some great stuff. I'm with you on this one, Matt. GREAT STUFF, RICK

All the best,

Big Mick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:34 AM

I've thrown this one out before, but I REALLY love it, so what the hell....

Al Cromwell's A9th.

Put your ring finger on the 5th string fourth fret, and your index finger on the 4th string 2nd fret. Strum all 6 strings. A HUGE A chord. use it occasionally as a substitute for A7th or in blues in E. (as a replacement for A7th)

Al Cromwell was one of the most neglected musicians who ever lived. A Black Canadian with a smooth guitar style, great voice and VERY suspicious of recording Company executives! He passed on much too early.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: granny
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:04 PM

What a lot in this thread. I'm just stumbling around the Mudcat, thought I'd say, "Thanks" to Rick Fielding for that great information. My daughter plays guitar more often than I do, so I'm going to copy that and give it to her.

I play a little, but I've had some problems with painfully dry/cracking skin if I start playing much guitar. I think I prefer keyboard, anyway, and I enjoy my accordion.

But, for the heck of it, I'll mention my crazy 'book,' Three Matrices For Eartraining (copyright 1998 by Ruby S. Really a.k.a. me). It tough reading and probably only means something to me, but, I put it on the web anyway (it don't matter if people think it's crazy; I was labeled crazy a long time ago...I've earned the right).

I'm going to re-post it soon at Themestream.com where I write articles, at least at this time (we'll see if they really do send me that check...), but for now it's here:

http://musicsnake.homestead.com/musicsnake.html

--at least, start there, you'll see the links.

It's applicable to any instrument, but it's weird music theory, not practical moves, really. Anyway, you might get some thoughts from it.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: granny
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 01:10 PM

And, yes, there's dollar stores around here. I recently bought some great little doll furniture at one, really cute little wooden chairs, rockers, etc.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Mar 01 - 02:50 PM

Winter end? When will the damned thing START, you mean?!


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 01:34 AM

Hi Ruby, being a "closet inventor" I'm always coming up with ideas that make total sense to me but may not be as clear to others......having said that I'm trying to figure out your "system". Hey, it's beats crosswords! Thanks for the stuff.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 09:57 AM

Regarding "correct" barre chords versus "thumbing the bass string(s)"....

Barre chords would be a lot less trouble if we were born with perfectly smooth slide bars on our hands instead of these damned wrinkledy fingers! When I make a barre F chord form "properly", the B string often winds up in the crease of my second knuckle resulting in inadequate down-pressure and a buzz. This is not a real problem when playing rhythm with a flat-pick because all the damping, vamping and chopping make the tone of a single string a non-issue. But if I'm playing with fingerpicks where each string is supposed to be heard individually, that buzzy string really calls attention to itself! So, when fingerpicking I always use a regular 5 string F chord form and catch the bass note with my thumb. It doesn't look as "classical" but it sure sounds cleaner.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: CamiSu
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:19 AM

Thanks Rick, I'll give it a try as I have NEVER been able to fully barre the F. And I don't mind sounding funny for a while. I usually sound funny. (Do you ever make it to the Clearwater Hudson River Revival? I'd love to see you if you were there.)

Alex, come visit me. I have lots of winter here, although the sugar weather is finally starting. However, I do wish it would stop snowing EVERY DAY!!!!!

CamiSu


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:52 AM

Thanks, Rick. You da man.

I was needing something new to nudge me out of a late winter-induced guitar funk and this did it! Thanks to all youse udder guys, too.

If you're lookin' for Bart, he's off wood shedding. . .


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: granny
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:16 AM

Hey, Rick, I just now posted an article at http://www.themestream.com/articles/384980.html

that may clarify my stuff. I just last night learned how to do an HTML table!! So, I had to try it.

The article is called 'My Music Theory Charts/Wendy Practices HTML.'


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:47 AM

Hi Camisu. Yeah, you'll sound "muddy" for a bit, but you'll get it. It's a case of getting the hand/wrist "used" to the new position. All those little muscles have never been used in that way, and they'll protest VIOLENTLY, but they'll come around. I've played a number of the Festivals in New England, but so far, "Clearwater" hasn't asked. Hope they do, someday.

Guest. hear you about the index finger. Me too. That's why i first started exploring the Thumb/Merle travis approach.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:37 AM

To barre F I usually roll my barring finger so that I'm pressing with the side rather than the bottom. THis seems to eliminate the buzzing.

Thanks to Boredatwork for the moveable barre F suggestions. Very nice!


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:45 AM

Peter T. discovered a LOVELY chord I've never heard before in open D tonight. I hope he posts it. Our Peter doesn't usually throw out tricks and tips in threads like these but his chord is a winner.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:59 AM

Rick, Peter, it wasn't the one Durante was looking for was it?
RtS (no-chord wonder)


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:59 PM

Very good Roger.

Well until Peter volunteers his chord (he may be saving it for marriage), here's one I love:

Substitute for simple G7th

Middle finger on 6th string, 3rd fret. Index on 5th string, 2nd fret. Ring finger on 4th string, 3rd fret.

The lower 7th is nice and the high E adds a sixth wich sounds "just a little different.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:09 PM

Damn that's a fine chord, Rick. If you can get it in progression before a Cmaj7, it's absolutely heartbreaking. ELO uses this same chord in the opening instrumental "Prologue" (with narration) from the Time album.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:43 PM


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:46 PM

Roger,

Yours are the first two posts I understand. Thank you.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM

You can catch the D note with your pinky on the 2nd string 3rd fret if you want the interval of the fifth in Rick's G variant chord...it then becomes a G7add13.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:54 PM

Okay since we're creeping into other interesting chord formations, I'll toss in one of my favourites - except it isn't "mine". I stole it from Merle Travis. It's a wonderful chord to finish any tune off in the key of E, and it's actually an E6th/13th. (It's the very last chord you'd play in a song in E.)

On the 12th fret, bar with the ring finger, the 1st and second strings. With the index finger, bar all of the strings on the 11th fret, except the 6th string (low E). Leave the low E string open. Now play the chord. Nice eh? (Merle had taste. *G*)


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:42 PM

Indeed it is Matt. I'm very familiar with "prologue".

Now cut that out Steve!! Just get out that geetar and start fingerin'!

If you take that chord with "Guest's" addition and move it up five frets, you've got a nice C7.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:57 PM

WOW RICK!!! I never would have thought you'd known that!! But then again, I SHOULD have known...yer the smartest guitar guru I know!!!

Just on the border of your waking mind
There lies a place
Where darkness and light are one
And as you tread the halls of sanity
You feel so glad you cannot go beyond
I have a message from another time...

Big ice tea glass cheers to you!


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:12 PM

This is all fascinating and excellent stuff. Makes me really feel like introducing my guitars back to normal tuning after all these years to try some of these.

A permathread is a good idea. Maybe we could share some chord tricks too with some other tunings like DADGAD?

mcmoo


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:28 PM

Heck DADGAD, I need Rick to explain to me how a (from low to high) FA#D#G#CC tuning is possible!!!


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:46 AM

Hey guys and gals, good thread after a hard weeks work. I'm just starting to get into open tunings so the first one is open E.

Matt, what kind of tuning is that? Do you need to re-string your guitar?

Martin


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: John Hardly
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:56 AM

Well, I've probably come in past the point of interest but I do so because perhaps the easiest has been omitted,

002200,004400,005500,006600(the previous two you will hear Lightfoot's "Beautiful",007700,009900,00[11][11]00.

knock yourself out with some haunting "new age" music.

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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 11:24 AM

Open tunings, open for business, please help! here! yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:22 PM

I'm just starting to get my head and fingers around some of these. Grab, that diminished is a nice sounding chord. Justa, thanks for that 'funny chord'. I've heard Doc play it. As you know I came to Mudcat to try and get into some Doc Watson music and I've found that not all of it is hard. You just have to listen to the people who've already learned it. Then you steal from THEM.

I have a question. WHEN do you substitute these 'fancy' chords for the simple ones that most of us mere mortals know?


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:34 PM

Whenever you can!!

Ok, since that tuning up there is INSANE, I dropped it down to FADGBB. It's working now. This, BTW is the tuning for Placebo's haunting "Without You I'm Nothing". I can see why they needed they weird tuning...it's definately spooky.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM

Marty,
The simplest way to work in a new chord or a new lick/riff/whatever (and what has always worked great for me) is to devise a little song or excerise around the new chord/lick, etc. Then it makes practising and working in the lick or chord, fun.

Once you've accumulated a few alternate ways of playing a given chord, then it's a matter of your ears and own personal taste to decide as to where the substitutions of these "fancier chords" would be appropriate. After a while, you should be able to tell instinctively whether they work or fit, in a given song or chord pattern.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,marty D
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:49 PM

Blimey, Justa in the flesh!

So if I'm playing something like 'freight train' or 'railroad bill', where is it appropriate to throw in a 'fancy' chord?

Matt, you may be an earthbound entity, but I'm afraid you're light-years ahead of me with tunings like THAT! How long have you been playing?

Martin


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Matt_R
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:58 PM

Well Marty, it was 7 years on January 12th. I started out as a classical guitar player for 5 years, but them when I got here to BIG university, dreams of a classical guitar minor were dropped, so now I'm pretty much steel string all the time, but I still play it like a classical guitar a lot of the time. Not wanting to bust the strings on my steel string, I'm doing the alternate tunings on my dusty, rusty-stringed classical guitar...the very first one I learned to play guitar on. Now I have a good concert guitar for all my classical, but my 2 old ones (and inexpensive, I might add) are gaining a new life as the subjects of wacky tuning experiments. Love those rust stains on my fingers!


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:11 PM

Well there's this thing about taste Marty. Freight Train (and Railroad Bill) have a certain intended sound to them, and i.m.h.o. are meant to be played close to the way their originators performed them. That's part of the allure of those tunes. Again, i.m.h.o. it would not be appropriate to "fancy them up" and alter the basic sound and flow of them. I suppose though you could do it just to check out how they'd sound, but you'd be creating something entirely different than what you started out with. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different, and maybe you'd learn a thing or two in the process. Course this altering of songs and putting our own unique imprint or twist on them, is also how one develops their own "style".

On the other hand, if you were playing something like Doc's "Deep River Blues" there's lots of opportunity for playing around with substitutions, as long as you do it during soloing sections. Hell I even wrote a bridge to it, just so it wouldn't become so redundant playing it over and over again. Here is a prime example of a tune you can take and kind of have fun with it. I mean Doc starts out and plays it pretty straight. Then around the 3rd or 4th pass, he introduces some cool cross picking into it (actually reverse banjo rolls) and then brings it back more simply and then out. I often play this tune with a very typical bluesy ending, following by the Merle chord (I described previously in another post) as the final chord of the song. My peers usually say "very nice" when they hear it.

Certain tunes need to be kept simple. Others lend themselves to "fancying up". Experience, growth as a player, getting together with other players and listening to their ideas, are part of the education and evolution, in determining taste and developing an intuitive sense of how far you can stretch the boundaries of a given song. This is how "innovators" are sometimes born. You need to have a sense of what the rules are in order to learn how and when to break them. *G*


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 11:08 PM

Here is an Ab chord form that you can use anywhere on the neck of the guitar. It's pattern is 431111 and it's fingered with a short barre together with the third and fourth fingers on the fifth and sixth strings; the middle finger isn't used. It provides a complete bass line for the chord that comes in handy for thumb pickers. As an example of how the Ab chord is used, I've provided a few bars of "Bye Bye Blues" in tablature form.

This example also serves as an HTML template for sharing tablature in Mudcat threads. Just be sure your editor is set to use a fixed width font and be sure to test it before posting. It will look double spaced when you test but that's okay, Max strips out the hard returns from our posts and adds the proper HTML tags so we won't have to.

      - Mark


Bye Bye Blues

                      C                                   Ab              
E | 0 | | |
B | | | |
G | | 0 | 1 |
D | 2 2 | 2 2 | 1 1 |
A 0 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 |
E 3 | 3 | 3 | 4 |

                      C                                   A               
| 0 | | |
| | | |
| | 0 | 2 |
1 1 | 2 2 | 2 2 | 2 2 |
3 | 3 | 3 | 0 |
4 | 3 | 3 | 0 |


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 08:06 PM

Mark said:

"You can take the F#7 chord that Rick mentioned ("Take a standard "D" chord...but..play it on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings....") but use your second, third and fourth fingers to make it. This will leave your index finger free to add the F# on the bass E string. The A string is damped out by touching it with the index finger. This gives you a great sliding or movable 7th chord."

I like that chord too - actually Willie-O showed it to me - but the only problem is that the high E string isn't accounted for, so it isn't fully movable. But if you finger it like this, it is:

Thumb on 6th string at second fret, and dampening 5th string.
Index barring strings 1, 2, 3, and 4 at second fret.
Another finger (your choice) on 3rd string, third fret.

(an F#7 in this example - the tonic is on the 6th string.)

Another movable 6-string dominant 7th shape is a variation on the Bb6 described in the opening post of this thread.

The tonic is on the fifth string, so for a B7 the spelling would be:

Thumb on 5th and 6th string, second fret.
Ring finger barring strings 1, 2, 3, and 4 on the fourth fret (try pressing down the middle finger right behind it to make it easier).
Pinkie on 1st string, 5th fret.

Marion

PS It's ironic - we're talking about chords that can be slid around sideways, but if you learn enough of them, then you can play all the chords of a song in any position without moving your hands sideways at all...


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: 53
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:44 PM

Play the D chord, then go to the 4th fret and then to the 7th fret for the intro of 8Days aWeek by the Beatles.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Genie
Date: 01 Apr 02 - 10:53 PM

Rick,
Years ago I was looking for a chord to go with the "journey" at the end of the second line of "Sentimental Journey," and by experimentation, I discovered a neat chord (some kind of diminished chord) that consists of lifting the entire B7 finger pattern and moving it down one string, so that it uses strings 2 through 6, instead of 1 through 5.
I could take a while and figure out what the chords is, but probably someone out there with more music theory than I have had (nearly anybody, that is) could tell you in an instant.
Whatever it is, it's a really neat, moody sounding chord--and as easy to play as B7.

Thanks for the tip on moving the B7 up the neck!

Genie


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: C-flat
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:16 AM

A nice chord to work in with Rick's moveable B7 or rather the flattened9th version with the little finger on the B string is this; 5x566x. Try the B7 shape at the 7th fret then this shape at the 5th, now the B7 at the 5th and the new one at the 3rd, and so on. It's a nice jazz sounding turn-around. I nicked it from Martin Taylor. I always refer to the B7 shape played with the little finger on the B string as the "all purpose Django chord" as he used it all the time. In fact I think he may have been the one who discovered it as, due to his damaged hand, he played mostly in triads. Another way to use the 5x566x shape is to substitute it for an Am in the turn-around sequence; C,Am,F,G. Play barre C(x35553),then 5x566x,now play the B7 shape at 5th fret, then 3x344x for a great jazzy sound.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Genie
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 02:55 AM

Rick --and guest,
Size does matter. So does joint flexibility.
Not to minimize the importance of improvising, practice, etc., but ceteris paribus longer fingers and the ability to bend a finger backward at one or more joints is a real advantage--and there are some chord positions that are physically impossible for some people's hands.

I know, I know, Segovia had short stubby fingers, and he did o.k. But sometimes folks with reallyshort fingers [even for a woman] and finger joints that bend only one way have to find alternatives to the methods others can use for playing some chords. [I, for one, simply cannot hold down two strings with one finger--except, of course, for the barre finger--unless they are at the edge of the neck.] As "guest" suggests, "these damned wrinkly fingers" sometimes make the theoretically ideal positions rather unattainable.
I love the C9 chord, but I cheat it, holding down only the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings, because my fingers are not double jointed. Thus, it sounds fine as a C9 but is not moveable to all positions on the neck.

Mooh and Rick
I really like sliding b7 up to the next fret for a modified C7 and back.

Justa,
I'm gonna have to try that Merle Travis E6th/13th thing as soon as I unpack my guitar tonight.

Genie


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 09:31 AM

Howdy. I've started a continuation thread (thanks to genie's input) here size&flexibility

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 12:01 PM

Just have to say this - I think this is yet another thread that has changed my life. I saw it when it was new, and put it aside for another day; I'm really reading it for the first time now.

For the past month or so I've been obsessed with getting a cello and learning to play it, but as I read this thread, that desire almost totally faded away, because this is so cool. I should learn to play the guitar instead!

Marion


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 02 Apr 02 - 01:31 PM

Matt Clarke (or anybody)

Anychance of getting that great tune "Bye Bye Blues" in a 5-string banjo tablature ??

It would sound great .

beach


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Mark Clark
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 12:59 PM

I'm guessing that I am the one beachcomber referred to as “Matt Clarke” since it was I who posted a few bars of the requested tune. Sorry Beach, I don't have any banjo tabs. I don't know whether he ever recorded the tune but I can just hear Don Reno playing that one.

Marion, Nice call on the fingering. I use that fingering too sometimes. I didn't mean to leave the treble E string unaccounted for, that was just an oversight. When I use the four-note chord you saw, I actually damp out the treble E with the root joint of my index finger. The four-note version of the chord is mean to be used with similar four-note fingerings I've posted elsewhere. One can move from a 6th to a 7th to a Maj-7th while holding two fingers and swapping the other two (but not the same two).

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:13 AM

I was recently organizing my guitar notes, and I discovered that between Mudcat, lessons, and my own extrapolations from other chords, I know eight different ways to play dominant sevenths that are fully movable (i.e. six strings either noted or muted).

Mind you, I'm counting Rick Fielding's 7th chord for masochistic showoffs (see this post)as one of them, but I have some masochistic showoff tendencies myself... and I think seven ways is pretty impressive too.

And I got the cello anyway. There's nothing sweeter than the life of an underemployed musician.

Marion


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: allanwill
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:46 AM

That was/is a great thread. Is GUEST still around; I thought his/her input was excellent.

Allan


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:22 PM

Well if yer gonna do "The world's hardest masochistic showoff" chord (see Marion's blue clicky) you better grab it while you're young. I just tried it on my reasonably new Martin D-41, and it sounds like total sh*t.

The chord is a joke of course, but I actually USED to be able to play it instantly.

On the other hand, I ALSO used to be able to:

Throw a fastball past the finest Little league batters.

walk ten miles a day (and visit music and pawn shops at the same time)

Remember EVERY cast member of The Great Escape and the Magnificent Seven.

Today I'm happy to be able to finger this G Maj7.

From 6th string.

3X5432

It's a great voicing though.

Cheers

Rick


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 07:26 PM

Maybe it works better on a shorter scale length machine, Rick? Say, a 24.75" Gibson?


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 09:35 PM

Rick - Thanks for the tip about hookin' the thumb over to catch the low G on that G Maj7. I had always just played XX5432. The bass note really fills it out, particularly for fingerpicking.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 10:07 PM

I play those 9th chords which are basically the B7 but barre the E, B and G strings. That's a C9 at the second fret,D9 at the 4th,D#9 at the 5th,and E9 at the 6th.
Now take your middle finger from A string and move it to the low E, keeping your short barre, and that sounds nice too, I don't know what that is called though.
I also play a movable C7 up and down the frets.
I like threads like this, thanks Rick and all! I feel like I'm playing right along with you.
Peace, Rustic


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:10 AM

While you're playing the B7 shape on the 6th/7th frets as an E7, you can play another variation of the shape as a nice high A7:

0-0-11-12-10-0

(It may look quite a bit different and be fingered different but it's the same sort of inversion as the B7 and C7 shape.)

Hammer on and pull off your pinky on the two top strings at the 12th fret for some ornaments. Do the same thing with your pinky on the same two strings when you go back to the 7th fret E7.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 08:27 AM

Rick, we have "pound stores" here in Britain where everthing costs one pound (except, it seems in the January sales when everything is half price!)Poundstretcher is not the same, they are a chain of "cheap and cheerful" shops which sell all sorts of things at low prices.


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Subject: RE: Our Friend the movable B7 chord.
From: Marion
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:34 AM

Followup thread: 13 movable seventh chords

Rick, maybe you need to buy a new guitar.

Cluin, thanks for the A7, I hadn't noticed that one.

Marion


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Mudcat time: 28 October 4:11 PM EDT

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