Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces

Subject: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 11:57 AM

It would seem that the terrorist troika of the Palestinians, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's own Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade will do all that they can to prevent peace talks and a two state solution between Isreal and the Palestinians. Their latest actions, which you can raed about by clicking here are aimed at provoking further retaliation by Isreal. Obviously, the ones who will suffer most because of these terrorists are the Palestinian people themselves.

On Saturday, Hamas met with Islamic Jihad and other radical factions, and participants agreed they would not stop bombings and shootings.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 01:08 PM

Yes, Guest NYC, some things are not likely to change. I also did not see an announcement that the Israeli government had pledged to remove all settlements beyond the Green Line now or when/if peace ever broke out, or to stop destroying the homes of the families of people who were involved or are suspected of involvement in attacks. What, exactly, did you intend by bringing this subject up yet again, other than jerking the chains of some of the Mudcat community's residents (the ones with names) whose opinions on this are well known?

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: mg
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 03:55 PM

How about some respect for all parties trying to do their best, under cultural conditions we can't understand, religious indoctrination that we can't comprehend etc. I think a more accurate title might be some Palestinians aim to destroy peace process while most have some degree of hope for it.

mg

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 07:17 PM

Mary, I might agree about some of the things you say, but not about the title of the thread. The most accurate title is "COME FEED THE TROLL"!

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:45 PM

Well, I certainly hope and pray that this time it will be different. I really do. With all of my heart.

But I don't see any reason why it will be different. The same obsticles still exist and folks aren't talking about them seriously. Yeah, Isreal still wants the Palestinians to submit to Isreal's preconditions and the Palestianians still want the settlers and army occupation forces to leave.

To further comlplicate matters, the US does noe have good working relations with the Aran nations, who are a vital part of success in any Middle East peace, because it invaded and is now occupying Iraq.

Hmmmmmm? I think all we are seeing is some politaical posturing but no real progress toward settling this major human crisis.

I hope I'm wrong, but don't think so. This is more about political polls than leadership, I fear.

Bobert

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 08:33 AM

From today's NY Times.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 10:23 AM

Just heard on the radio that Israel's response to yesterday's terrorist murders has been to begin dismantling its West Bank outposts.

Israel's Sharon, it would seem, is committed to the roadmap to peace.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 10:54 AM

Children shot in third day of Israeli army raids

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 12:52 PM

All the usual parties who are normally opposed to the peace process (or what they may term "appeasement") will continue being opposed to it. This includes militant Palestinians, militant Israelis, arms dealers, religious fanatics on both sides, politicians who stand to gain or maintain power through further conflict, and so on...

This is the same as to say "There are some people in this world who have violent intentions and are dangerous." Yes, indeed. So?

- LH

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Mark Clark
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:10 PM

In his 1954 novel about the Mau Mau uprising, Robert Rurak quotes the following Basuto proverb:

If a man does away with his traditional way of living and throws away his good customs, he had better first make certain that he has something of value to replace them.

From the Palestinian point of view, suppose a determined group of illegal immigrants, claiming to be acting on orders from God, began flooding your country despite your best efforts to stop them. Then suppose those illegal immigrants started performing acts of disruption and terrorism within your country. Then suppose the international community decided your country wasn't yours any longer but now belonged to the illegal immigrants who had been disrupting your social order and was prepared to enforce its decision with military force. Now suppose you are hated and marginalized in what had been your country and wherever you tried to go, the new masters swarmed in and pushed you out. Would you be pissed off? Would you be pissed off enough to kill somebody? Would it make any difference that you couldn't possibly win a military victory or would you still just want to blow somebody up?

Attention, Washington! Is anybody awake?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:46 AM

Mark,

If what you describe as the situation as seen from the Palestinian point of view is correct, it is at great variance to facts that can be easily checked in the records of The League of Nations and its successor organisation, The United Nations.

The initial acts of disruption and terrorism you refer to were instigated by one, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in 1920, 1929 and between 1936 and 1939. These were all Arab initiated revolts involving attacks against the Jewish population at large, moderate Palestinian leaders who expressed any view regarding reaching some form of accommodation with the Jews, and the British Mandate Authorities. The pretext for the revolts were based on rumours of attacks on Arabs by Jewish settlers. In every instance, investigations by the British Authorities and by Representatives of the League of Nations, proved conclusively that no such attacks had occurred, they were, in short, complete fabrications.

After the 1920 riots, Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, was arrested, tried and sentenced to 15 years hard labour for his involvement in the riots. He was "allowed" to escape to Syria, and he reappeared in Jerusalem in 1922 where he was proclaimed Grand Mufti by the British Authorities (He was the son of the former Mufti of Jerusalem).

The 1929 riots were basically a re-run of 1920, the only difference being that the Jewish population had, in the wake of 1920, now created a militia organisation for self-defence (The Haganah).

Alerted to his totally uncompromising anti-Zionist stance, the British removed the Grand Mufti during the 1936-1939 Arab Revolt. Muhammed Amin al-Husseini actively advocated support for Nazi Germany and finally fled to Germany were he remained until the end of the Second World War. After the war Muhammed Amin al-Husseini lived in exile in Egypt, where he was Yasser Arafat's mentor.

The international community did not give the country to the illegal immigrants. What the international community did do was to restrict Jewish settlement to an area of around 20% of the total land area of Palestine. This restriction only applied to Jewish settlement, the Palestinians were free to live anywhere in the Mandate Territory. This was accepted by the Jewish community, but rejected by the Arab Council.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:49 PM

Teribus,

I didn't mean to be writing or re-writing history. I was only trying to point out what the conflict looks like from a Palestinian point of view. Palestinians aren't a bunch of towel-headed, camel jockeying, sand n****rs, they are an ancient and vital people who have been seriously f***ed over by the rest of the world for at least as long as the Jewish people have been f***ed over. Niether group is derserving of the hatred often aimed at them.

Your historical examples, while accurate by themselves, are a couple of incidents in a much bigger picture. Your examples contain facts but I find them somewhat lacking in truth. For a surprisingly neutral albeit high-level account of events in the history of Palestine, check out some of the articles on the history of Palestine at Arab.Net and especially, the article entitled Jewish-Arab Conflict. These articles aren't the ravings of mad terrorists but studied and reasoned accounts by professional journalists in the Middle East.

To be sure, the Israeli-Pelestinian conflict is extremely complex and probably won't find a just and lasting solution in our lifetime or our children's children's lifetime. One idea that people everywhere need to let go is the idea that God likes some people more than others or supports particular political causes. Another idea that isn't helpful is the largely American fantasy that every problem can be reduced to good guys and bad guys.

The present situation was largly created by the world community and isn't going to be solved without help from the world community. But to take sides in the conflict or simply permit the extermination of one group by the other is not the way to peace.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:11 PM

So, Teribus, are any people whom you happen to feel a natural affinity for in any given conflict "without sin"...and therefore justified in casting the next stone? Or has there been a series of errors on all sides?

What will correct those errors? More fighting...or forgiveness and compromise and mutual accommodation?

You know, it all comes down to very basic stuff like money, firepower, and strong allies...those who have such things are lording it over those who don't, and the ones presently on the bottom of the pecking order are blowing themselves up in marketplaces. All these grandiose pretensions of moral justification and "defence" that you hear from Israel, the USA, or Hamas are just propaganda and window-dressing to whip up the emotions of the voters and foot soldiers. Those voters and foot soldiers will always believe that the other side cast the first stone.

It doesn't matter anymore who cast the first stone! That is not the problem here. The problem is that people are still doing it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:13 PM

Well some people sure seem to be doing their damnnest to stop any peace process. Israel launches fresh Gaza strike

"Three Palestinians from the same family were killed and at least 30 people wounded in the latest attack near the town of Jabaliya"

Surely that is terrorism by any standards, and it has to be intended to torpedo any hope of getting a ceasefire.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:25 PM

If this were boxing match, the Palestianians would be the ones hopelessly trapped in the corner, taking blows after blows. Like I've said before, when you have one side that is so superior in fire power, it is that party whose ear you must get first.

And I have also over the last two years been consistent in my belief that both parties need to stop fighting.

And I have also satted over anfd over that the US holds the power to make it happen and as long as it doesn't happen, I hold the uS as accountable as either of the parties.

Now T-Bird is going to give me some dumbass home work assignment here as a destration but we all know that the US, if it wished acn broker this deal. It just going to take courage and the setting aside of powerfull lobbies that want the conflict perpetuated...

Bobert

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace process
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 06:51 AM

"ArabNet is owned by ArabNet Technology (ANT), part of the Saudi Research and Marketing Group, publisher of the leading newspapers and magazines in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia including Asharq Al-Awsat. The managing director of ANT is Mr. Yasser El Dabbagh, who welcomes all feedback."

And this is what Mark Clark offers up as;

"a surprisingly neutral albeit high-level account of events in the history of Palestine, check out some of the articles on the history of Palestine at Arab.Net and especially, the article entitled Jewish-Arab Conflict. These articles aren't the ravings of mad terrorists but studied and reasoned accounts by professional journalists in the Middle East."

I am sure that the world and it's uncle are aware of the fact that freedom of the press is of paramount importance in Saudi Arabia. The, "neutral albeit high-level account of events", detailed in the link referred to are over-simplistic and broad brushed to the point idiocy.

The solution to the conflict requires that both sides face up to, and acknowledge, the lies and errors of the past - that exercise is an essential part of reconciliation.

The examples I gave are accurate accounts of what transpired as deduced from numerous investigations. The riots were instigated on the basis of completely unfounded lies and fabrications - that is not only fact, it is accurate, it is the truth. That has to be acknowledged by the religious and political leadership of the Palestinians and they must ensure that their people know that and are taught that.

Bobert says above that, "we all know that the US, if it wished can broker this deal." - Hell as like Bobert, there is not an Arab on this earth who would ever regard the United States as an honest broker regarding this conflict. The UN can broker this deal with the wholehearted support of the United States - that is a completely different matter and would stand some chance of success.

Mark Clark is perfectly correct when he says, "The present situation was largly created by the world community and isn't going to be solved without help from the world community." The operative word is help, no solution can be imposed, the parties immediately involved have to come to the realisation that they do live in the same area and that their best interests are served in adopting, and maintaining, peaceful co-existence with each other. The State of Israel is an established fact, its existence is recognised by the United Nations. The Palestinians must universally recognise that as an unassailable fact. The Jews are not going to be driven back into the sea, the Palestinians are not going to recover the land they held in 1947 - and its about time that realisation was brought home to all and accepted once and for all.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:01 AM

Unless you forgot, the Bush administration stuck a stake in the heart of the United Nations when it attacked Iraq. The United Nations now needs to be overhauled before it will have any credibility and the overhaul has to begin with the US making it painfully clear that it's policy of pre-emption is a thing of the past. Either the US is going to be a partner and obey international law or it isn't. Can't have it both ways and as long as it isn't then forget the UN as a body that negiotiate or mediate a danged thing....

Bobert

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:09 AM

First of all, I did not make the posting of 09 Jun 03 - 10:54 AM. Someone was obviously trying to discredit my position by providing a link, under my handle, to an anti-Israel publication. Unfortunately, the computer that I use is unable to accept cookies, hence I cannot sign in and am vulnerable to unethical parties who post here.

Secondly, what McGrath describes as terrorism by the Israelis was, in fact, a military retaliation. The Israelis retaliated for the latest terrorist hits on Israeli soldiers and civilians, by attempting to assassinate Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a senior leader of the terrorist organization Hamas. They did this several days after the new Palestinian premier, Mahmoud Abbas, publicly declared that he would "under no circumstances" act against Hamas, and after Hamas itself had publicly pledged to continue terror strikes on Israel. From his hospital bed, Rantisi repeated his call for the extermination of all "criminal Zionists" -- an expression which in the Hamas lexicon means all those Jews not descended exclusively from Arab forebears (who would thus be entitled to "dhimmi" or protected minority status in return for paying special taxes under an Islamic theocracy).

The terorist murderers of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's Alqsa Martyrs Brigade, and their puppetmasters like Abdel Aziz Rantisi, choose to hide themselves like cowards among innocent civilians. Israel cannot not go after such murderers and Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Arafat's Alqsa Martyrs Brigade know that. They need the rage of the Palestinian masses for their support, so they commit actions that they know will fuel that rage.

Israel will not stop retaliating for terrorist hits. Nor, for that matter, will they be stopped from dismantling West Bank settlements, if they can see the prospect of something in return. In yesterday's case, there was nothing in return: for Mr. Abbas had already declared he wouldn't himself act against Hamas.

Israel will not stop retaliating for terrorist hits. Nor, for that matter, will they be stopped from dismantling West Bank settlements, if they can see the prospect of something in return. In yesterday's case, there was nothing in return: for Mr. Abbas had already declared he wouldn't himself act against Hamas.

The Israelis will make hard decisions, but not suicidal ones, and granting an open season on Jews to Palestinian terrorists would be suicidal.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:03 AM

I don't know why people should post to this because all it does is causes tension between people, and I think that Guest New York City (TROLL) should stop posting these horrible posts. And people shouldn't answer them because all they do is cause trouble.
So do us all a favour and stop posting on them.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:04 AM

I hope that makes sense.
I don't mind people given out their opinions however there is a time and a place for them.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:04 AM

PS.
And the Jews don't

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:15 AM

It seems there are Mudcatters who, when they don't want to debate their opinions on the merits of information, label those they disagree with as TROLL as busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland does above.

Then busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland stoops to using an anti-Semitic slur. That says a lot more more about you than anything I could say.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:26 AM

From the link supplied by MGOH:

"Mr Rantissi, who was lightly wounded, said Hamas would avenge the attack and continue to fight Israel until every last "Zionist" was gone."

There is not one jot of difference between this statement and the views openly expressed by Muhammed Amin al-Husseini eighty-three years ago when he deliberately spread lies to initiate attacks against unarmed Jewish settlers.

Talks between the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist groups are at a stand-still. Under such circumstances the following comment by the Israelis is understandable, even although it is undesireable at a time when restraint would be more effective;

"A senior Israeli military source told the BBC that more attacks could be expected against Hamas leaders - both political and military - as long as the group continued attacking Israelis."

Also from the link supplied by MGOH:

"The attack in Jabaliya came after Palestinians fired rockets at Israel from across the border in Gaza,..."

To use Kevin's own words - "Surely that is terrorism by any standards, and it has to be intended to torpedo any hope of getting a ceasefire."

Bobert's comment - "..the Bush administration stuck a stake in the heart of the United Nations when it attacked Iraq." - over-dramatic clap-trap Bobert. The credibility of the United Nations will be restored the instant the UN demonstrates that when confronted by a rapidly deteriorating situation that it can act with purpose and resolve.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:05 PM

Just heard on the news, two Hamas suicide bombers have killed 15 Israelis and wounded at least 70 more today in Jerusalem.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:06 PM

Another person that can't take any critisim, The Jews are just as bad as the Arabs.

Are you a Jew, or unlike do you support in what the jews are doing to the Arabs.

IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO

There people like me who wants to see Peace in the middle east but until the jews and the Arabs stop fighting and sit down and talk, then there will never be peace in the middle east.

That's all I have to say on the matter, I shall leave you alone, and as I said do not reply to this message please.

Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:11 PM

Well, well, well. busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland certainly does show his anti-Semitic and anti-Arab racism in the above post.

Yes, I can take criticism. Attempting to shut down debate by calling someone a troll, or resorting to anti-Semitism is not, as you call it, "critisim." (sic)

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:11 PM

The Jews and the Arabs should treat each other as fellow human beings, because after all Abraham was the father of the two that strated the Arab and Jewish relgions, Issac and Ishmeil.

So much for families.

As I said please don't post a message to this.

Because i am fed up with it.

Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:34 PM

Well Tom, you may be fed up, but you need to understand a few things.

The word "Jew" is not synonomous with Israel. To slur Jews for what *you* perceive as an Israeli wrong, is anti-Semitic.

Abraham was not "he father of the two that strated the Arab and Jewish relgions, Issac and Ishmeil." (sic) According to the biblical legend, Abraham himself was the first Jewish patriarch. Isaac continued that lineage.

"Arab," as you put it, is not a religion. The Arabs consider themselves to be the decendants of Ishmael. The religion of the vast majority of Arabs is Islam, some are also Christians. The Islamic religion was founded in the 7th century AD, in what is now Saudi Arabia, by Mohammed. Islam was founded approximately 3,000 years after the birth of Judaism and 600+ years after the founding of Christianity.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:37 PM

I was going to tell that I support both the Jews and the Arabs.

But then why should I because you wouldn't listen.

So do me a favour, and don't add to this post and just go away.

Leave me in peace.

Goodbye.

PS
If you think I'm telling lies then that's up to you.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:43 PM

"Who gives the right to tell me or anyone else what to or what not write on the Internet...Well as I say I have the right to say what I want."

That's what Tom or busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland said in the Tony Blair thread on March 22. I guess he believes in free speech as long as its his free speech.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:46 PM

I just wish Someone had told me that, the reason I say Jew and Arab is because I amd not good at spelling.

Thank you guest for that, I am also a Christian.
I only support my fellow human beings and I don't care who they are or what their faith is.

I'm a very simple person who just wants a peaceful life.

Tom

I know that you'll say "if you wanted a peaceful life, then you shouldn't of posted a message onto the post." and you know you're right.
All it was a first was slip of the finger on the mouse.
Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:10 PM

What I meant as 'adding to the post' was don't answer my messages please,
However you can write what you want on the post.

Sorry about that Guest.

Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 01:42 PM

Actually, a military retaliation to an act of terrorism can itself be an act of terrorism, and usually is.

I'll give some historical examples from the frontier period in North America. Whites frequently practiced terrorism on Indians, shooting them down with or without provocation, scalping them for bounty money, raping their women, and burning their villages. Indians frequently practiced terrorism on Whites, shooting them down with or without provocation, scalping them for prestige, raping their women, and burning their cabins and other possessions.

Indians and Whites also practiced terrorism on other Indians and Whites similar to themselves, and on Mexicans, while Mexicans did more of the same on all the above parties at various times.

Most of these acts were considered to be legitimate forms of military retaliation against...terrorism.

Keep in mind that terrorism is simply this: A violent act against an identifiable group of people with the intention of killing them, terrorizing them into submission, having revenge upon them, or driving them off a particular area of land.

Terrorism is practiced by hidden groups of guerilla fighters, by hidden criminal gangs, and by uniformed and official armed forces of nations, and even by uniformed police on occasion.

Governments in the World have tried to dodge this issue by attempting to give the impression through their largely controlled media that only people out of uniform and not acting for a government can be deemed "terrorists".

That's a lie. Plain and simple. All organized killers who seek to terrorize are committing terrorism.

And the only way to stop it is to first stop doing it yourself and then seek a better way of resolving problems with your neighbours.

Endlessly pointing out how evil the "other guy" is will not solve the problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:06 PM

busbitterfraeSaltcoatsScotland,

You can't make provocative statements in a public forum and then demand that no one respond to you. The world just doesn't work that way.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 02:39 PM

Well I'm sorry about that and all those other things that I said, so please forgive me.
And I don't mind you or anyone else answering my messages, I just a simple lad, and I write things that I can understand, I don't mean to upset people, I just say what I think, i sometimes get things wrong and or I write things that some people don't agree with, however that's me, and if I have upset anyone with the messages that I have writing then I'm sorry.

Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 03:10 PM

I seem to be saying sorry to a number memebers and non members on this website.

As I said I say things and write things the way I see them, I might be putting my views over all wrong, as I'm just a simple lad, I don't much brain power that some of you have, and also I don't use big words when small words will do. So please forgibe me and when you are talking to me, please write in a way that I can understand.

thanks
Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 03:26 PM

Tom, we're saying, I think, that if you don't want others to answer your statements, don't make them. If you do make them, others have as much right to answer as you have to make them. Freedom of speech works both ways.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 07:14 PM

This book by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal has the best analysis of the history of Israel I have seen. You can read a review of it by clicking here

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 08:26 PM

True enough, there's a difference between an atempt to assassinate someone who is directing terrorist attacks and an attack aimed directly at civilians. But I suspect that an attempt by Hamas to assassinate Sharon would probably be viewed as terrorism.

This won't stop till one side refuses to retaliate. And it seems to me that, so far as the present leaders of the terrorist organisations are concerned, that is the last thing they want to see happen. I'd see that as including the most powerful of those organisations, the current Israeli government.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:22 AM

Sorry Kevin, but you just cannot equate the two (Israeli Government and Hamas, et al).

The Palestinian terrorist groups are not the elected representatives of the Palestinian people, they are self appointed guardians of what they perceive to be the best interests of the Palestinian people (that normally coincides with what happens to be in their best financial interest as well - if you doubt that take a look at Arafats bank balance)

The Palestinian terrorist groups almost invariably mount totally indescriminate attacks specifically aimed at Israeli civilians - they very rarely take on the IDF, for good cause, any time they have they have come off decidedly second best.

The Israeli Government is the democratically elected representatives of the people of the state of Israel, and as such have a sworn duty to protect the citizens of that state.

Throughout the term of the current Intifada the Israeli Government has always been prepared to talk - on the sole condition that terrorist attacks stop.

The Palestinian Terrorist Groups on the other hand have never come out with a similar statement. They are consistant in their demands and in their ultimate goal - the destruction of the state of Israel - And that is not going to happen. For any progress to be made it is this side of the conflict that must move first.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 02:56 AM

Thank you for telling me.

As I said I'm sorry, I now know that Freedom of Speech works both ways.

Thank you for clearing that up

Tom

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM

Actually, Teribus, it had appeared a couple days ago that Sharon was willing to make concessions even before the cessation of terrorist attacks. The scale of yesterday's violence may threaten that.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 11:19 AM

A couple of Guardian articles today:

Oona King article

Is Sharon to blame? Israelis wonder

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 03:23 PM

Some important questions about America's war on terrorism and pictures of yesterday's terroristic Hamas suicide bombing can be seen here.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 06:42 PM

I didn't "equate" the two organisations, I said that they are both engaged in terrorism.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 07:20 PM

Don't apologize to these pro-Israeli turds, Tom. Israel is the biggest terrorist state in the Mid East and doesn't WANT peace. Israel helped FOUND their biggest terrorist enemey, Hamas, so the fighting could go on. You're apologizing to people who KNOW all this, too. The Jews who promote a continuation of violence against Arabs are anti-Semites (Arabs are semites, too), and the Jews who try to play that 'race card' against you are resorting to underhanded methods name-calling because they can't justify their support of murder in any rational way.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,native
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 08:03 PM

BOBERT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MAKES SENSE> I WAS IN PALISTINE WHEN THERE WAS JEWISH TERRORISTS

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: Tam the bam fraeSaltcoatsScotland
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 11:05 AM

Thanks Guest.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST,Helen S
Date: 14 Jun 03 - 05:46 PM

Don't get upset period Tom. A state of peace goes against the agendas of some Iraelis some Americans some Arabs and some Palestinians. It's not complicated to state but awfully messy to solve. Of course the majority want to live without the threat of gunpowder. The emotional poster who starts all these threads under different names and often from different stated locations just seems to get a kick out of the constant exposure.

One reason that Mudcat works is that sometimes posters remain anonymous in hot button threads so as not to get into personal spats.

Subject: RE: Palestinians aim to destroy peace proces
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 03 - 01:37 PM

Israel's new Army