Origins: No Irish Need Apply

Subject: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,still cookieless paddymac
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 10:32 PM

I've been playing with a fascinating song called "No Irish Need Apply." I found it in a Pete Seeger book of labor songs from about 20 years ago (the book, not the songs). I have the lyrics, but am perplexed by a phrase in the third verse - "Millia Murther." The song is allegedly "trad", but - it seems to have something of a cutsy, Tin Pan Alley flavor about it. It's in 6/8 time (1/4, 1/8, 1/4, 1/8). I have a recording of it by Mick Moloney, which has a much more mournful feel to it, but I haven't listened to it for a few years. Can anybody here advise me as to the origin and meaning of "Millia Murther?"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,still cookieless paddymac
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 10:44 PM

I should have mentioned that the lyrics I have from PS are alrady in the DT. What I am seeking is the origin and meaning of "Milia Murther."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,Masato
Date: 27 Jul 03 - 11:06 PM

The phrase has been discussed in this thread: meelia murther - lanigans ball.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 10:34 AM

The original sheet music issue of 1863 can be seen in the Lester Levy sheet music collection, Box 53, Item 009. (See Mudcat's links)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,Masato
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 08:00 PM

See also this informative article by Richard Jensen : "No Irish Need Apply": A Myth of Victimization.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,fag an bealac
Date: 28 Jul 03 - 09:52 PM

See also, additional information at http://www.28thmass.com Seeger's version is missing several verses.

Regards,
Fag an Bealac

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 01:53 AM

The Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads site has these editions:

No Irish Need Apply [title]

No Irish Need Apply [tune]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:37 AM

Thanks for the link to that excellent Jensen article, Masato, you come up trumps again.

I suggest that all my compatriots here read it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,paddymac (yes, still the cookieless one)
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 06:33 PM

Thanks to all for their kindly inputs. And Yes, Masato, a fascinating link. An occasional dose of good scholarship can be refreshing, indeed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 29 Jul 03 - 07:24 PM

Song sheets are also at American Memory:

No Irish Need Apply (Written by JOHN F. POOLE, and sung, with immense success, by the great Comic-Vocalist of the age, TONY PASTOR.) H. De Marsan, Publisher, 54 Chatham Street, New-York. [n. d.]

No Irish Need Apply (Written and sung by Miss Kathleen O'Neil). J. H. Johnson, Stationer & Printer, 7 N. 10th Street, Phila. [1862?]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,Fag an bealac
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 01:46 PM

Hey all:

Be careful of Jensen's conclusions, though. He acknowledges the great power of music. But he seems to draw very near to concluding that the Irish were not discriminated against. I think the evidence indicates otherwise.

He reads Poole's lyrics as indicating that "No Irish Need Apply" newspaper ads were prevalent. When a review of period newspaper ads reveals remarkably few ads using that precise language, he concludes that NINA is a myth. However, there are many ads indicating "Protestant only" and newspaper help wanted ads (like songs) do not reflect the entire universe of thought. At this site http://www.28thmass.com/NINA/no_irish_need_apply.htm
is a transcription of an editorial from the Boston Pilot newspaper almost 10 years after the "Know-Nothing" Nativist party had ended domination of the Massachusetts legislature and 8 years after the party had supposedly been driven from the National scene. It indicates the ongoing existence of the prejudice even at that time. Again, one newspaper editorial does not reflect all of society, but when all the indicators are added up, the prevalence of the anti-Catholic sentiment was real and not a figment of John Poole's imagination.

Tha above site also gives links to the reply to "No Irish Need Apply" in the American Memory collection.

Regards,
Fag an Belac
Gallant Sons of Erin

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: ET
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 01:57 PM

You may have these words now but they are in Mel Bays songs of Ireland page 64.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,still cookieless paddymac
Date: 31 Jul 03 - 08:04 PM

Well said, Fag an Belac. You're dead on with the reference to the Nativist movement. In the decades following An Gorta Mor, the Irish were the largest and most obvious "bloc" of immigrants, especially to the cities of the "New England" area. It is, I believe, foolish to assert that anti-Irish prejudice did not exist in those times and places, and in other times and places as well. It is equally foolish to think that the Irish were the only immigrant group here to experience such treatment, or that such blind bigotry did or does not exist in many other places around the globe to this very day. It's pointless and dangerous to get carried away with "victim-ism." Far better to speak against such stupidity whenever and wherever you encounter it. No need to make a big production of it. Just let the proponent know they bring no credit to themselves by such foolishness.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 04:05 AM

When I commended Jensen's article to fellow-Irishmen and women (including American-Irish!), I saw it more as a useful corrective to our tendency to wallow in victimhood than a refutation of the existence of anti-Irish/anti-Catholic discrimination.

That sort of discrimination continued to be encountered even in Ireland itself long after independence: certain employers even in Dublin were known not to employ Catholics, and even in the Guinness brewery, revered as a "good employer" in the 19th-Century paternalistic tradition, while Catholics could get good jobs as craftsmen, secretaries and lower-middle management, it was not until well into the 1960s that they began to break the glass ceiling that kept them out of senior management jobs.

We wasted a half-century of independence under De Valera's misguided (anti-)economic policies and his picking over the bones of history.   I have a hunch that exposure of young people to the more open, can-do enterprise climate of the US through the J4 visa programme and temporary emigration played a significant part in creating the enterprise culture which has helped Ireland to achieve such amazing economic success in the last decade.

I don't have the stats to prove it, but I think it is generally recognised that Irish emigrants prospered to a much greater extent in the US than in Britain. What is harder to prove is how many of the barriers were imposed by society and how many were in the minds of the emigrants themselves.

Unfortunately, now that the country is so prosperous that it is itself undergoing the novel experience of immigration, too many people seem to be subjecting the immigrants to the sort of hostility that we are so quick to condemn when we were its victims.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:53 AM

A Phluiméar,

I remember, in the mid-60's, eating chicken on a Friday with the first Catholic "brewer" in Guinness', in their staff canteen. I come from a family whose men worked in the brewery for generations. When I was 14 and stayed on in secondary school, there were parts of the family who literally would not talk to me because I had turned down the chance to go in as a "messenger boy"!. As an undergraduate, years later, I worked one summer in what would now be called the Quality Control Lab - and was duly forgiven.

Regards

p.s. Of course, "Protestant" paternalism was infinitely preferable to "Catholic" exploitation, of which there was no shortage.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 10:01 AM

I wonder how many people nowadays would even realise the significance of the detail of eating chicken on a Friday in the 60s. That came pretty close to apostasy. I'm not even sure that Mother Church would have forgiven it on grounds of force majeure in those days.

Another "good" Prod employer was Dockrell's, who were revered in Dublin folklore for giving their jobs back to the men who were interned during the War of Independence. On the other hand, Guinness's, at least up to the time of independence, contributed to the cause of empire by dismissing messenger boys when they reached military age, though I gather they would often employ them again as labourers after a period of service in the armed forces.

Drifting back to the barriers inside our heads, what kept Trinity College Protestant and Anglo-Irish right up to the 1970s was not so much its own policies as the attitude of the Catholic Archbishop of the time, John Charles McQuaid, who forbade Catholics to study there on pain of some sort of reserved sin - or was it even excommunication? That never stopped nationalists from regularly trotting out the fact that the place was set up by Elizabeth I to promote Protestantism in Ireland four centuries ago as vindication for their own bigotry.

The amount of mind control that we were subjected to by the extraordinary McQuaid-Dev axis would be absolutely incomprehensible to my children's generation.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 11:38 AM

I remember asking at the time (a bit like the apostle's (?) "Lord, what must I do to achieve eternal life?": What do I need to become a brewer? . The answer was roughly: "Well, you need a degree nowadays - Oxbridge or, in hard years, Trinity will do. Subject doesn't matter - though Classics are good..". The then Brewer-in-charge of the laboratory was an Oxford classicist, as far as I remember. His assistant was actually a biochemist, oddly enough. It always seemed to me that he felt somewhat inferior because of this - and tried to compensate by spending his holidays hunting tiger in the Punjab!

Regards

Subject: Lyr Add: NO IRISH NEED APPLY (Kathleen O'Neil)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Aug 03 - 10:30 PM

Here's a different song with the same title and similar sentiment, transcribed by me from the images at The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music. (Note: the print was so small on my screen, it was difficult to decipher, but I think I got it all, with the exception of the lieutenant's name. I welcome any corrections.

NO IRISH NEED APPLY
"Original song written and sung by Miss Kathleen O'Neil, the Irish vocalist.
CLEVELAND: Published by S. Brainard & Co., 203 Superior St." 1863.

I'm a simple Irish girl and I'm looking for a place.
I've felt the grip of poverty, but sure that's no disgrace.
'Twill be long before I get one, though indeed it's hard I try,
For I read in each advertisement, "No Irish need apply."
Alas! for my poor country, which I never will deny!
How they insult us when they say, "No Irish need apply"!

Now, I wonder what's the reason that the fortune-favored few
Should throw on us that dirty slur and treat us as they do.
Sure they all know Paddy's heart is warm, and willing is his hand.
They rule us, yet we may not earn a living in their land.
O, to their sister country, how can they bread deny
By sending forth this cruel line: "No Irish need apply"?

Sure I did not do the like when they anchored on our shore.
For Irish hospitality, there's no need to deplore;
And every door is open to the weary stranger still.
Pat would give his last potato, yes, and give it with a will;
Nor whisky, which he prizes so, in any case deny.
Then wherefore do they always write, "No Irish need apply"?

Now what have they against us? Sure the world knows Paddy's brave,
For he's helped to fight their battles both on land and on the wave.
At the storming of Sebastopol, and beneath an Indian sky,
Pat raised his head, for their General said, "All Irish might apply."
Do you mind Lieutenant Morey (?), when he raised the battle cry?
Then are they not ashamed to write, "No Irish need apply"?

Then they can't deny us genius, with "Sheridan,"--"Tom Moore,"--
The late lamented "Catherine Hayes," and Sam Lover to the fore,--
Although they may laugh at our "Bulls," they cannot but admit
That Pat is always sensible, and has a ready wit;
And if they ask for Beauty, what can beat their nice black Eye?
Then is it not a shame to write, "No Irish need apply"?

Och! the French must loudly crow to find we're slighted thus,
For they can ne'er forget the blow that was dealt by one of us.
If the Iron Duke of Wellington had never drawn his sword,
Faith they might have "Napoleon Sauce" with their beef, upon my word.
They think now of their hero, dead; his name will never die.
Where will they get another such if "No Irish need apply"?

Ah! but now I'm in the land of the "Glorious" and "Free,"
And proud I am to own it, a country dear to me.
I can see by your kind faces that you will not deny
A place in your hears for Kathleen, and all Irish may apply.
Then long may the Union flourish, and ever may it be
A pattern to the world and the "Home of Liberty!"

Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: NO IRISH NEED APPLY (John F. Poole
From: chico
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:43 AM

[Capo +2] "Written by JOHN F. POOLE, and sung, with immense success, by the great Comic-Vocalist of the age, TONY PASTOR."

         A                                 D            A
  I'm a dacint boy, just landed from the town of Ballyfad; 
     D        A        7     B7             E7
  I want a situation: yis, I want it mighty bad. 
  I saw a place advartised. It's the thing for me, says I; 
           D      7       A              E7             A
  But the dirty spalpeen ended with: 'No Irish need apply' 
             D                            7        A                  F#7
  Whoo! says I; but that's an insult -- though to get the place I'll try. 
         B7                                 E7    
  So, I wint to see the blaggar[d] with: No Irish need apply. 
  
           A             7               D              D#°
  Some do count it a misfortune to be christened Pat or Dan,
         A            7           E7           A   (E7)
  But to me it is an honor to be born an Irishman.
  
  I started off to find the house, I got it mighty soon; 
  There I found the ould chap saited: he was reading the TRIBUNE. 
  I tould him what I came for, whin he in a rage did fly: 
  No! says he, you are a Paddy, and no Irish need apply! 
  Thin I felt my dandher rising, and I'd like to black his eye--
  To tell an Irish Gintleman: No Irish need apply! 
  
  I couldn't stand it longer: so, a hoult of him I took, 
  And I gave him such a welting as he'd get at Donnybrook. 
  He hollered: Millia murther! and to get away did try, 
  And swore he'd never write again: 'No Irish need apply' 
  He made a big apology; I bid him thin good-bye, 
  Saying: Whin next you want a bating, add: No Irish need apply! 
  
  Sure, I've heard that in America it always is the plan 
  That an Irishman is just as good as any other man; 
  A home and hospitality they never will deny 
  The stranger here, or ever say: 'No Irish need apply' 
  But some black sheep are in the flock: a dirty lot, say I; 
  A dacint man will never write: No Irish need apply! 
  
  Sure, Paddy's heart is in his hand, as all the world does know, 
  His praties and his whiskey he will share with friend or foe; 
  His door is always open to the stranger passing by; 
  He never thinks of saying: None but Irish may apply. 
  And, in Columbia's history, his name is ranking high; 
  Thin, the Divil take the knaves that write: No Irish need apply! 
  
  Ould Ireland on the battle-field a lasting fame has made; 
  We all have heard of Meagher's men, and Corcoran's brigade.* 
  Though fools may flout and bigots rave, and fanatics may cry, 
  Yet when they want good fighting-men, the Irish may apply, 
  And when for freedom and the right they raise the battle-cry, 
  Then the Rebel ranks begin to think: No Irish need apply 
  
  [H. DE MARSAN, Publisher, 54 Chatham Street, New York.

The fact that Irish vividly "remember" NINA signs is a curious historical puzzle. There are no contemporary or retrospective

accounts of a specific sign at a specific location. No particular business enterprise is named as a culprit. No historian, 2

archivist, or museum curator has ever located one 3 ; no photograph or drawing exists. 4 No other ethnic group complained

about being singled out by comparable signs. Only Irish Catholics have reported seeing the sign in America—no Protestant, no

Jew, no non-Irish Catholic has reported seeing one. This is especially strange since signs were primarily directed toward

these others: the signs said that employment was available here and invited Yankees, French-Canadians, Italians and any other

non-Irish to come inside and apply. The business literature, both published and unpublished, never mentions NINA or any

policy remotely like it. The newspapers and magazines are silent. The courts are silent. There is no record of an angry youth

tossing a brick through the window that held such a sign. Have we not discovered all of the signs of an urban legend?

Spalpeen: A scamp; an Irish term for a good-for-nothing fellow; often used in good-humored contempt or ridicule.

Meagher's men (see www.mindesign.net/Ninth_Corps/meagher/meagher2.html and Corcoran's brigade were Irish Catholic combat

units raised in New York City in 1861—62. (see http://members.tripod.com/~Shaung/164thny.html After Lincoln issued the

preliminary Emancipation Proclamation on Sept 22, 1862, support from Irish Catholics fell off drastically, suggesting that

the lyrics were written before then. At the battle of Fredericksburg in December, 1862, Meagher's brigade, comprising six

all-Irish regiments from New York, Massachusetts and Pennsylvania, suffered 45% casualties and the Irish enthusiasm for

fighting drastically declined. Craig A. Warren, "'Oh, God, What a Pity!': The Irish Brigade at Fredericksburg and the

Creation of Myth," Civil War History (2001) 47:193—221. For the Irish mood see Bernstein, The New York City Draft Riots;

Frank L. Klement, "Catholics as Copperheads during the Civil War," The Catholic Historical Review (1994) 80:36—57.]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:29 PM

Paddy Mac, Mil=destroy and of course murther= murder.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: GUEST,Sam Burrello
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM

There were signs of NINA on doors of business and I saw them. My father being Italian and could not find a job in the 40's pointed one out to me and said it ment No Italian Need Apply as he along with the Irish were not being hired. Many changed their name to Americanize it to get by ethnic discrimination against both Irish and Italians. It was burned into my memory that the sign NINA printed in bold red letters on an employemnet outside door on the southside business area in Indianapolis, Indiana, was to keep certain people from being hired. I was very young but still remember this sign. My father was Italian and my mother is of German, Scotch Irish background.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: 'No Irish Need Apply'
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:51 PM

BTW, GUEST's gloss on "millia murther" is unlikely. The first syllable is invariably pronounced with an ee sound - suggesting it derives from the Irish word for "thousand". Even turns up in Ulysses - but doesn't everything?!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:41 PM

Two versions of the same song!

I couldn't stand it longer: so, a hoult of him I took,
And I gave him such a welting as he'd get at Donnybrook.
He hollered: Millia murther! and to get away did try,
And swore he'd never write again: 'No Irish need apply'
He made a big apology; I bid him thin good-bye,
Saying: Whin next you want a bating, add: No Irish need apply!

The "Millia murther" has to do with the attack on him!

The MALE version is aggressive, while the FEMALE is gentle.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: mg
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 08:37 PM

I think it is impossible that such signs did not exist. Ted Kennedy had some from somewhere..maybe he printed it in printshop. DOn't know. But it is very very unlikely that a song could have been written in 1863 out of thin air. I am so distrustful of these "scholars" who say something never happened..I don't think anyone short of a fool would say there was no discrimination against the Irish..they certainly would admit that..wouldn't they?

And I don't think the "urban legend" is of newspaper advertisements but rather signs on windows etc. mg

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 12:17 PM

The author (Jensen) doesn't claim that the Irish were not discriminated against - just that there is no evidence of such signs IN AMERICA. On a quick scan of the article, he accepts they existed in 19 C. England and believes that claims they existed in the US are, in effect, a "false memory".

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 12:38 PM

Hi Martin,
"he accepts they existed in 19 C. England"
A bit later than the 19th century Martin - as a MacAlpine's worker my father encountered them regularly in the 1940s/50s - "no dgs, no blacks, no Irish".
I believe I had one of them pointed out to me as a child in (of all places) Liverpool, but I either was unable to read or did not understand their significance.
Have actually worked as an electrician in pubs in London where Irishmen have been asked to leave - this would have been in the early to mid 1970s
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Aug 12 - 12:40 PM

Hi Jim

Yes - I agree completely re modern usage. My summary was in the context of Jensen's analysis of how the "myth" (his term) of their occurrence in 19C. America may have arisen.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:46 AM

Have actually worked as an electrician in pubs in London where Irishmen have been asked to leave - this would have been in the early to mid 1970s
That is not the same thing at all Jim.
At that time pubs full of people were being slaughtered indiscriminately by Irish Republicans in the name of Ireland and the Irish people.
It is an extraordinary testament to British tolerance that there was no backlash against the Irish community, and so few examples of hostility such as you mention.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:51 AM

There were pubs in Kilburn (London) where collections were taken for IRA and English were not welcome.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:05 AM

"There were pubs in Kilburn (London) where collections were taken for IRA and English were not welcome. "
And there are pubs throughout England - London featuring largely, where the BNP and before them, the National Front take collections, hold their meetings, sell their newspapers and where anybody not white or British are not welcome - not a thing of the past but still one of out 'quaint English customs'.
The Blade Bone in North East London was well known as a fascist pub and possibly still is - saw Colin Jordan there once.
"No Travellers Served" is a common notice throughout Britain
You seem to be doing the rounds to spread the right message ('right' being the operative word).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:11 AM

"No Travellers Served" is a common notice throughout Britain
No it is not.
It would be illegal and would lead to a prosecution every time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 05:31 AM

As a disclaimer, I'm pretty far left in my politics. But as a man in his mid-40s (living near Manchester) I don't remember ever seeing a sign in a pub referencing a refusal to serve Travellers. I remember in the late 1980s and early 1990s I very occasionally saw signs about 'Crusties' and specifically *New Age* Travellers but not Travellers per se.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 07:17 AM

"No it is not."
Yes it is - Travellers mounted a campaign in the late 80s to outlaw the practice and were partially successful, but it has slipped back to the old days.
If you care to examine the notes of our CD 'From Puck to Appleby' on the Musical Traditions site it carries a photograph of such a notice saying 'Travellers by appointment Only'.
Despite the evidence proving Traveller groups to be ethnically unique, this ongoing practice is not considered racist.
"As a disclaimer..."
Sorry - Manchester as well - saw several of them a few years ago when we wee speaking at the Working Men's Library in Salford.
In Ireland it is ten times worse.
When Travellers are in the area the police visit the pubs and 'warn' the owners that Travellers are around and they should keep their doors locked and only let in people they know. Should they serve them they will not be entitle to police protection if any trouble breaks out.
Get it right lads.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 07:39 AM

Meant to say thet the photograph was taken by Pat of a pub on the Balls Pond Road in North London in the Late 90s
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,Wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:02 AM

Jim, out of curiosity, where were these signs? What pubs? Regarding the Police warning landlords &c., is that in Ireland or Manchester? It's not clear from your post. Again, it's not something I've seen, at least where I am, despite Travellers appearing sporadically near places I've drunk.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,keith A
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 08:11 AM

Jim, you said it IS a common notice.
It is not.
I have never seen one and do not believe there are any.
Perhaps you are thinking of where you live.
Many thousands of our Travellers are refugees of persecution in Ireland.
Please name and shame a pub in Britain with such a sign, but be prepared for legal action by them for slander.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 09:54 AM

Wyrdolafr
"Jim, out of curiosity, where were these signs?"
Sorry - don't know that area any more - completely changed since I lived in Manchester - somewheree near Eddie Frow's Working Class Library.
We had a Traveller with us at the time and had to visit three pubs before we could get served.

"I have never seen one and do not believe there are any."
So the photograph on the Musical Traditions site is a forgery.
We worked with Travellers for thirty years in London, Bristol Birmingham, Swindon and Norwich and regularly encountered them right up to when our last singer, Mikeen McCathy died.
Mikeen was part of the London Roadside Travellers group that campaigned in Hackney for their removal for pubs there.
They were still around in Britain four years ago.
That you choose to ignore photographic evidence placed before you is typical of the dishonest way you argue.
Now if you have nothing articulate to say on the matter, please piss off
Jim Carroll

From not a million miles away from Hertford
http://www.leicestershiretogether.org/gypsy_travellers_the_truth.pdf
Gypsies and Travellers can experience unequal treatment from the police. They cite stories of being arrested without due cause, unfairly barred from public venues, or repeatedly stopped and questioned. The CRE in 2004 pointed out that some forces are working to improve their equality strategies and practices, but in many areas there is a long way to go.
There are still 'No Travellers' signs in some pubs and shops, where Gypsies and Travellers face suspicion and extra scrutiny by security guards. Evidence also points to Gypsies and Travellers being prevented from entering cinemas and facing discrimination at fast food/restaurants and other retailers. In July 2008, Travellers also alleged that they were turned away from the Royal Windsor Horse Show.17 There can also be problems with getting taxis to drop off at sites. Gypsies and Travellers can and do meet outright public hostility and racism. Gypsies and Travellers are often the target of racist incidents, which can include verbal abuse, inappropriate jokes, damage to property, physical assault and even murder.18 Chants at football matches that equate players with long hair to living in caravans remain common to this day, whilst other stereotypically offensive and racist chanting has largely disappeared from UK football stadia. Leicestershire's Hate Incident Monitoring Project is a good source of information on hate incidents, including those of a racial nature.19

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:20 AM

Jim, that's not my side of Manchester (or Salford, for that matter) but aren't there a load of fields near the WCL? Were there Travellers there at the time? Maybe there'd been some kind of altercation or incident?

I don't dispute the fact that these kinds of things existed at all, just the notion that they're actually "common". I'm no alcoholic, but I've been in plenty of boozers up and down the country over the years and the closest I've ever seen to anything like, are the 'No Crusties' (quite often in pubs that were otherwise open to 'alternative cultures') and 'No New Age Travellers' signs. The latter getting it from all sides during the 1990s (not 'real' Travellers, not part of wider society either &c).

There's been two different ad hoc camps near me in the last 12 months and whilst I won't deny any suspicion/resentment within the local community, I've genuinely not seen a sign like you mention.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:34 AM

"No Travellers Served" IS a common notice throughout Britain

No it is not.
It would be illegal and would lead to a prosecution every time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:42 AM

"No it is not. It would be illegal and would lead to a prosecution every time."
This becomes stupid - you have evidence from Gypsies, you have our experiences, you even have a photograph.
Fuck off!!
"Maybe there'd been some kind of altercation or incident? "
Now you're making excuses - if I get drunk and cause trouble I expect to get barred out - not my family, not my neighbours, not every white male I associate with.
It was common practice enough in east London to get the support of several sympathetic solicitors.
It is a fact of Travelling life throughout the time we recorded them.
You seem to be following the idiot you are sharing this thread with in denying what is a well-known fact.
Listen to Sheila Stewart talking about it in Scotland, read some of the horror stories of the ethnic cleansing that is taking place in Ireland.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:49 AM

It is illegal here to display such a sign.
Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 10:52 AM

"It is illegal here to display such a sign."

Although race relations legislation has been in force in the United Kingdom since 1965 and has developed considerably to protect against increasingly subtle forms of discrimination, Gypsies and Travellers are still experiencing discrimination of the most overt kind: '˜No blacks, no Irish, no dogs'™ signs disappeared decades ago, but the '˜No Travellers'™ signs, used intentionally to exclude Gypsies and Travellers, are still widespread, indicating that discrimination against these groups remains the last '˜respectable'™ form ofracism in the United Kingdom. This is supported by the findings of a 2003 Mori poll conducted in England in which 34 per cent of respondents admitted to being personally prejudiced against Gypsies and Travellers.
In 2004, Trevor Phillips, the former Chair of the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE) and now the Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), compared the situation of Gypsies and Travellersliving in Great Britain to that of black people living in the American Deep South in the 1950s and, in 2005, Sarah Spencer, one of the CRE'™s Commissioners, drew further attention to their plight in an article entitled '˜Gypsies and Travellers: Britain'™s forgotten minority'™:
The European Convention on Human Rights '¦ was a key pillar of Europe'™s response to the Nazi holocaust in which half a million Gypsies were among those who lost their lives. The Convention is now helping to protect the rights of this community in the United Kingdom '¦ The majority of the 15,000 caravans that are homes to Gypsy and Traveller families in England are on sites provides by local authorities, or which are privately owned with planning permission for this use. But the location and condition of these sites would not be tolerated for any other section of society. 26 per cent are situated next to, or under, motorways, 13 per cent next to runways. 12 per cent are next to rubbish tips, and 4 per cent adjacent to sewage farms. Tucked away out of sight, far from shops andschools, they can frequently lack public transport to reach jobs and essential services. In 1997, 90 per cent of planning applications from Gypsies and Travellers were rejected, compared to a success rate of 80 percent for all other applications '¦ 18 per cent of Gypsies and Travellers were homeless in 2003 compared to 0.6 per cent of the population '¦Lacking sites on which to live, some pitch on land belonging to others; or on their own land but lacking permission for caravan use. There follows a cycle of confrontation and eviction, reluctant travel to a new area, new encampment, confrontation and eviction. Children cannot settle in school. Employment and health care are disrupted. Overt discrimination remains a common experience '¦ There is a constant struggle to secure the bare necessities, exacerbated by the inability of many adults to read and write, by the reluctance of local officials to visit sites, and by the isolation of thesecommunities from the support of local residents '¦ But we know that theseare communities experiencing severe disadvantage. Infant mortality is twice the national average and life expectancy at least 10 years less than that of others in their generation.'™
.
Race Relations Act
English Gypsies and Irish Travellers – Today, both English Gypsies and Irish Travellers are recognised as distinct ethnic minority groups in law because they are recognised as members of a community with a share history stretching back over hundreds of years. As such they are granted the full protection of the Race Relations Act.
New Travellers - New Travellers are not a legally recognised ethnic minority group because their history only goes back to the early 1960'™s. However, all individuals and groups are granted protection under The Human Rights Act.
.
Types of Discrimination
The Traveller community faces harassment and discrimination on a daily basis as a result of negative stereotypes and deeply ingrained cultural prejudges. Unfortunately, many instances of harassment and discrimination go unchallenged because they are subtle and indirect. However, there are ways to counter harassment and discrimination and there are specific instances when it can be successfully challenged.
Direct Discrimination – Direct discrimination happens when and individual or body (such as a brewery, shop or a service provider, etc'¦) openly discriminates against an individual or group because of who they are. Examples of this would be things like a pub or shop putting a sign on the door say '˜No Travellers.'™
Indirect Discrimination – Indirect discrimination happens when a service provider such as a local authority, health authority, school, etc'¦ excludes an individual or group or restricts their access to services because of who they are. Examples of this would be a local authority housing department refusing to put a Traveller on a housing waiting list because because they have not been resident in the housing authority'™s area for more than six months. Because Travellers face continuous eviction and are often forcibly moved from one area to the next, it is often impossible for them to be resident in one specific locality for a sufficient length of time. The Traveller concerned would have to show that they had remained in the general area (i.e., the county) and had local links (such a children attending local school or a history of employment).
.
http://www.gypsy-traveller.org/your-rights/law/harassment-and-discrimination/

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:01 PM

Jim Carroll; "Now you're making excuses - if I get drunk and cause trouble I expect to get barred out - not my family, not my neighbours, not every white male I associate with"

It's not "excuses", it's a question born out of the fact that I've never actually seen a 'no travellers' sign in any pub I've drunk in since I first chanced my arm when I was still at school.

However, I know pubs that have had a policy of 'no skinheads' - as in the skinhead subculture with it's roots in the 1960s - even if they were in suits and shoes rather than boots and braces. I know this from my own personal experience - I was refused a drink from places I'd never been in before. Also, my Dad used to tell me stories about how teddy boys &c similarly sometimes barred wholesale from various places he knew of.

Whilst you might argue that all this is 'different' (although, whilst skinheads and teddy boys are quite easy to spot, I'm unsure as to how aesthetically 'distinctive' a traveller is for a landlord to pick them out from a crowd) the basic point remains. Blanket bans can exist and it's not specific to Travellers.

Landlords &c can be discriminating and I've not doubted this at all or even doubted that Travellers are refused entry. My only point has been about how common these signs are.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:15 PM

Can't say I've ever seen a sign barring entry to travellers.
I've been kicked out of a club for wearing plimps (converse - new ones)
My Irish grandfather was once kicked out of a nightclub, not for being Irish (though I've heard that did happen) but for not wearing a tie; he (so the story goes) went to the bog next door and composed himself a tie of loo paper and was subsequently admitted.
I've seen plenty of notices banning kids over the years.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 02:24 PM

Everyone who lives in Britain knows that it not a "common notice" as you claim.
Like wyrdolafr, I have never seen one.
To display one is a criminal offence, and conviction would carry a heavy fine.
Any Traveller who was refused entry as a Traveller would be able to make a claim against the offender for discrimination.
Far from "common" they are extraordinarily rare, and I still do not believe they exist at all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:03 PM

Following the potato blight in Ireland, many thousands came to the U.S. and Canada. They were Catholic, hence were dammed for Popery from the Protestant pulpits of the time. The Irish already had come in large numbers before the Famine, and strife between them and Americans was common.

".....dreadful riots between the Irish and Americans have again disturbed the public peace. The mayor (NY) arrived with a strong body of watchmen, but they were attacked and overcome, and many of the watchmen were severely wounded." Philip Hume, diary, 1834.

A newspaper comment:
"......nearly all from Ireland. The number expected to come to Canada and to the States is estimated by some as high as 100,000..... New York Herald, 1845.

They were called "White niggers" and regarded by some as subhuman.

"The popish countries of Europe are disgorging upon our shores, from year to year, their ignorant, superstitious, and degraded inhabitants, not only by tens, but by hundreds of thousands, who already claim the highest privileges of native citizens, and even the country itself." From tract, "American Protestant in Defence of Civil and Religious Liberty against Inroads of Popery," 1843.

The path to discrimination was evident early; Samuel Adams writing in the Boston Gazette, 1768: "There is a variety of ways in which POPERY, the idolatry of Christians, may be introduced into America.... Yet, my dear countrymen, suffer me at this time to warn you all, as you value your precious civil liberty, and everything you call dear to you, to be on your guard against POPERY."

In 1834, Samuel F. B. Morse (the inventor) wrote: "In thus tolerating all sects, we have admitted to equal protection not only those sects whose religious faith and practice support the principle on which the free toleration of all is founded, but also that unique, that solitary sect, the Catholic, which builds and supports its system on the destruction of all toleration. Yes, the Catholic is permitted to work in the light of Protestant toleration, to mature his plans, and to execute his designs to extinguish that light, and to destroy the hands that hold it."

Certainly, in the Protestant businesses in the U.S. and Canada, the sign, if not posted, in fact but in practice was common, and the song was well-known.

Quotes above from Lyndsay Faye, 2012, "The Gods of Gotham," Amy Einhorn Books (Putnam-Penguin).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:24 PM

American printings in American Memory, Library of Congress:

-H. De Masran, NY
-J. H. Johnson, Philadelphia
-Parody to same tune: "No Puppies Need Apply"
Sheet music, 1862, composed by Kathleen O'Neil
Song sheet by De Masran, John Poole listed as composer.

Song sheets, Bodleian Collection
Song sheet, H. Such, London. No author listed.
Song sheet, G. Ingraham, London. No composer listed
(Also American song sheets)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 03:37 PM

"Everyone who lives in Britain knows that it not a "common notice" as you claim."
I'm beginning not to believe the level of imbecility you seem to be sinking to to defend racial abuse in Britain
You've seen reports of such abuse.
You've been shown a copy of a report from the Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)
You've seen the photograph.
You haven't called me a liar yet, but I have a feeling you're about to (do you think all these are nonsense as well wyrdolafr?
You've had a report from these events taking place not far from where you live.
You have proved yourself a racist moron - yet again, underlined by the fact that the only defence you have put forward to contradict the researched and anecdotal evidence put before you "I have never seen one."
I MUST HAVE SEEN OVER 100 the last being in 2005
Yes, it is illegal to discriminate against gypsies. It is also extremely worrying that the events describe take place because it means that the police and the authorities either are incapable of carrying out their duty or - more worrying and, in my experience, more likely, they are part of that persecution by turning a blind eye to what is happening.
Following the Stephen Lawrence murder the police were found to be institutionally racist.
They have tried, not very successfully, to clean up their act regarding black and Asian communities.
They yet to make a start with Gypsies.
In the late eighties I discovered from a workmate that his brother-in-law and his neighbours were planning a firebomb attack the following week-end on a Gypsy site in South London (20 families who had moved on as a protest that there were no official sites in the area)
I reported it to local activist Roy Wells, who reported it to the police.
I also informed my workmate what I intended to do.
The police took no action, even though they had the names and addresses of the the would-be arsonists.
Three weeks later I got a visit from the police who asked me what I was doing hanging about with "Pikeys"
Tosser - once again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM

Jim, I'm not sure how much clearer I can put it. I find wholesale discrimination pretty bewildering. My politics are left wing. I'm anything but racist. I've been a member of the Anti-Nazi League in the past and have gone toe-to-toe with right wing boneheads in my youth more times than I care to remember. My better half is the daughter of East European immigrants. I'm not sure what else to say really. Why the hell I'm explaining half of this to satisfy a stranger on the internet, I don't know.

However, the fact remains, I've genuinely not seen one of these signs and I'm not aware of anyone in my social circle having seen one (it would have been a talking point and probably a reason to even leave the pub in the first place).

Also, given you've not seen one yourself since 2005 - that's a full 7 years - either you've stopped drinking in pubs or perhaps they're not really as common (now) as you've claimed. I'm not denying these things have never existed, and I've not said anything that could be reasonably interpreted as such, all I've queried is how 'common' they actually are.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 02:23 AM

I am only challenging your claim that "No Travellers Served" IS a common notice throughout Britain
It is not.
I am arguing no other point, and despair that you have hijacked another thread, and this time a music one, to push your agenda.

Subject: Lyr Add: NO IRISH NEED APPLY + WHAT IRISH BOYS CAN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 03:08 AM

You've both had enough evidence to sink a ship - if you don't accept it - tough (didn't expect K to anyway, doesn't suit his moronic grand plan)
It remains one of the facts of life among the Travelling communities of these islands and will remain so while ignorance and maliciousness prevails

Back to the subject
From Wrights, 'Irish Emigrant Songs and Ballads'

-526-NO IRISH NEED APPLY

Oh 'twas yesterday that I was led on such a wild goose chase,
I read an advertisement and went out to get a place,
But when the mistress saw me, says she "why, by the by,
Did you not read the words there "no Irish need apply?"
"If to my Country you object, just tell the reason why,
But don't print such a heartless line, "no Irish need apply."

If a stranger goes to Ireland, he's treated like a lord,
True hospitality there is found, just take poor paddy's word,
They'll treat you to their potheen, and welcome you with joy,
So pray blot out those heartless words, "no Irish need apply."
Oh don't throw stones for fear you hit your father in the eye,
I With such a flinty missile as "no Irish need apply."

At Balaklava, Inkerman, and through the Russian War,
Didn't Irishmen fight bravely as they've often done before?
And in this War their loyal arms have made the rebels fly,
So pray blot out forever, that "no Irish need apply."
If you wan a second Wellington, to get one never try,
While still you write the foolish words, "no Irish need apply."

Of Generals brave, and Statesmen, old Ireland too can boast,
Her Poets still are everywhere a universal toast;
There's Goldsmith, Curran, Grattan, Moore, and Lever yet to try, 1
What may be done by genius when Irishmen apply.
Sure Sheridan the brilliant, and Campbell, by the by,
Would never have been known if then "no Irish did apply."

Ah surely you may speak kindly now, if you could not before,
When you think of manly Corcoran, who alas, is now no more;
The Union to preserve, he with both hand and heart did try,
So don't offend his brothers with, "no Irish need apply."
When you think of Catharine Hayes and Clonmel long gone bv.
You surely can't repeat that line, "no Irish need apply."

So let us all united be, and true men all around,
And let no petty feelings yet in any heart be found;
But strive for that great Haven, where all happiness doth lie,
And State or Creed no object is, and all nations may apply;
And let us join both heart and hand, and this the reason why,
We all should meet in Heaven, where all nations may apply.

-527-
WHAT IRISH BOYS CAN DO. ANSWER TO NO IRISH NEED APPLY. Ms by WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, author of "Columbia's Glorious Banner."

hey insult an Irishman and think nought of what they say,
They'll call him green, an Irish bull, it happens every day;
Now to these folks I'll say a word—to sing a song I'll try—
And answer to those dirty words, "No Irish need apply."
So, if you'll give attention, I'll sing my song to you,
And the subject of my song shall be, "What Irish boys can do."

If you'd come to Ireland they'd treat you well, I'm sure;
Pat would share his last potato with the destitute and poor;
If you were sick and weary, and had no place to rest,
The bed you'd get, though poor perhaps, would be Pat's very best.
He'd nurse you, too, he would that, and give you whisky, too,
And you cannot find a nobler act than Irishmen can do.

Did you ever know an Irishman from any danger flinch?
In fighting, too, he'd rather die than give his foe an inch.
Among the bravest in the world are the sons of Erin's green isle,
Sure the Iron Duke of Wellington was a native of the soil.
And didn't he badly whip the French on the plains of Waterloo,
Which plainly showed to the whole world what Irishmen can do.

Old Ireland's had her warriors, who fought both true and brave;
Pat's assisted every nation, on the land and on the wave:
And poets, too, she's had—yes, many and many a score,
Where can you find much brighter stars than Lover or Tom Moore?
Old Ireland's had her actors, and authors not a few,
And things of wit and humor the Irish all can do.

Did you ne'er hear tell of Sheridan, or of lamented Catharine Hays?
Did you ne'er see fun in Irish songs, or laugh at Irish plays?
Old Ireland's had her statesmen—their fame the wide world rings!
She's likewise had musicians, to tune her old harp strings!
Not all Irish girls are beautiful, but then they're always true,
And for faith and generosity the Irish girls will do.

And then, too, in the present war between the North and South,
Let no dirty slur on Irish ever escape your mouth.
Sure did you ne'er hear tell of the 69th, who bravely fought at Bull Run,
And Meber, of the seven days fight, that was in front of Richmond?
With General Shields, who fought so brave for the flag red, white and blue
And anything like a bayonet charge the Irish boys can do.

Then why slur upon the Irish? why are they treated so?
What is it you have against them is what I want to know?
Sure, they work for all they get, and that you can't deny!
Then why insult them with the words, "No Irish need apply."
If you want to find their principles, go search the wide world through,
And you'll find all things that's noble the Irish folks can do.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:41 AM

"either you've stopped drinking in pubs or perhaps they're not really as common (now) as you've claimed"
Moved to Ireland in 1998 where Travelling life is as I described above - on ethnic cleansing levels.
2005 was the last time I worked with Travellers in England - since then only a couple of short visits to central London.
When I lived in Manchester I saw a crowd of Travellers including piper Felix Doran, thrown out of a pub in Chorlton-Cum-Hardy.
Don't believe me that they're common - take the word of experts.
'˜No Travellers'™ signs, used intentionally to exclude Gypsies and Travellers, are still widespread, indicating that discrimination against these groups remains the last '˜respectable'™ form ofracism in the United Kingdom." (from above report)
Don't know which particular brand of 'left' you are, but it's always been my experience that the left in general have always been ignorant of racist Traveller abuse.
If neither of you have to anything to refute these facts apart from the somewhat braindead "I've never seen it" - for the sake of this thread - leave it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 05:56 AM

Jim, rather than "enough evidence to sink a ship", you say yourself that you haven't seen one for 7 years and you appear to have been used to going in the kinds of places that would have had them up.

Also, again, I raise the issue as to how bar staff would know that all these people were Travellers if they just turned-up to a pub. If all the pubs in and around Manchester refused to serve people with Irish accents, names etc., then half the pubs would be closed through lack of custom: you're undoubtedly aware of how many people have some kind of Irish heritage up here.

Again, I'm not disputing that these signs don't exist or have never existed, just the definition of 'common'. You having not seen one at all for 7 years and me not seeing one at all (or, for that matter, Keith who lives in the other end of the country) might suggest that 'common' might have been the wrong word or at least should have been qualified with 'some areas' or something.

I'd like to think that the reason why we're not seeing them is because they're being reported as quick as they're going-up.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,wyrdolafr
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 06:22 AM

Nothing "braindead" about personal experience, Jim. You've used personal experience to back-up your own posts here, or was that "braindead" of you too? Or is it just "braindead" when someone else (who is otherwise generally sympathetic to what you're writing about) writes from personal experience?

My personal experience here is that I've not seen one, another 'guest' here hasn't seen one, Keith (who seems to share some history with you I'd rather not get dragged into) hasn't seen one either.

As I keep saying, I'm not doubting these signs exist at all or haven't existed in greater numbers at one time. I'm not suggesting that you've photoshopped a photo to prove your point either. However, I've no reason to lie about not seeing them, and I don't see why other people might lie about not seeing them either. And yet here you are with snippy comments about my politics, calling people imbeciles, braindead and the like.

I'm not going to post on this any more as you're more chippy than I can be arsed with on a Sunday morning or indeed any other morning.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 08:14 AM

"Nothing "braindead" about personal experience, Jim. You've used personal experience to back-up your own posts here"
THERE IS WHEN IT IS TO PROVE A NEGATIVE "I've never seen it" and when you use it to contradict documented research such as the of the Commission for Racial Equality.
My "experience" was interviewing Travellers over thirty years, the first ten of those virtually four nights a week, seeing the notices, being refused service in the pub because I was in their company, and being part of the activity of The London Roadside Travellers Group in photographing the notices and trying to get them removed.
WWhen the GLC existed, before Fscist Thatcher abolished it, Ken Livingstone met regularly with Travellers and worked with them - that stopped when it was abolished.
If you have anything other than "I've never seen them" feel free, otherwise you have no case.
I have not suggested that you have lied about not seeig them, can't say I took any notice of them before Travellers became an important part of our lives.
Incidently, the Oxford Library report on Traveller/settled relations describes them not only "widespread" but "commonplace".
I said I hadn't seen them in England because I don't visit England often (will be there next week), in which case, I have to rely on documaneted evidence.
My "braindead" remark was not so much aimed at you, who hasn't claimed the notices don't exist, but at Keith, who has calimed just that and once again attempts to mount an attack on yet another ethnic group.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 12 - 08:29 AM

If they were "common" we would have seen some.
We have never seen ANY, and we live here.
That is a neutral statement of fact.
Sorry if you find that honest observation unacceptable.
I would certainly notice such a controversial and illegal thing if I ever did see one.

When you come over, report every one you see and get them prosecuted.
Tell us how you get on.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 04:48 AM

hasn't claimed the notices don't exist, but at Keith, who has calimed just that

No I have not.
I said I do not believe they exist.
I also said they are not common, which I know to be true from my own observation, having never seen one in my whole life.

once again attempts to mount an attack on yet another ethnic group.

TWO lies there Jim!
My comments here can not be construed as an attack on anyone, and I have NEVER attacked ANY ethnic group.

(whereas your posting here is motivated by your hatred of the British people, who are actually among the most tolerant in the world.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 05:06 AM

"having never seen one in my whole life."
You mean you haven't looked up the one on the Musical traditions site - typical?
"I have NEVER attacked ANY ethnic group."
You descibed all male Pakinstnis as having a culturally implanted tendency which makes them pervs
Now will you **** off and let people have their thread back
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 06:20 AM

You descibed all male Pakinstnis as having a culturally implanted tendency which makes them pervs

Will you never stop telling this lie about me, just because you have no reply to what I actually do say?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 12 - 03:08 PM

You are saying nothing except "they don't exist becaause I haven't seen them"
"No it is not. It would be illegal and would lead to a prosecution every time."
"Will you never stop telling this lie about me"
Which do you want, the quote or the thread reference, or both maybe - take your pick
Byee
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 04:46 AM

I am saying I don't believe they exist because I have never seen one.
I know they are not "common" for the same reason.

Re the 18 month old smear, why do you have to try and smear.
Why not just discuss.
Because you have no replies?

The view you ascribe to me is not held by me and never was.
I have never made such a ludicrous claim.
I have refuted it many times on many threads Jim.
Must we do it again??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Aug 12 - 03:32 PM

Ted Kennedy has a sign that says exactly that and I think he said it was old..can't confirm.

There is a nice little song called Murphy's Homemade still I think written by George Millar of Irish Rovers..it is on youtube..mentions the phrase. It is very similar to When I mowed Pat Murphy's Meadow..probably was in his subconscious.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 02:18 AM

"Ted Kennedy has a sign"
Interesting episode of the British detective series 'George Gently' last Sunday dealing with racial prejudice spilling over into violence in a English North Eastern town in the 1960s.
It depicts the landlady of a boarding house displaying a notice reading 'No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs'
The episode shows a news clip of Enoch Powell making his 'Rivers of Blood speech so if the programme researchers have done their job properly the signs were still to be seen in Britain on 20 April 1968.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 04:31 AM

I saw that Jim.
The detective tells her to take it down or be arrested for it.
Britain led the world in anti discrimination legislation.
We also saw black and white dancing together in a club.

Are you now visiting UK Jim.
How many of those common "no travellers" signs have you seen so far?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 05:12 AM

Another one for you to ignore
Jim Carroll
Click here

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 05:39 AM

Or a Government's eye view of Travellers
Click here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 06:13 AM

Jim, those links produce pages and pages of text.
Please indicate the parts relevant to this, because no-one is going to wade through all that stuff.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 07:56 AM

The article refers throughout to plans to illegally exclude and persecute Travellers
ll of the following contain references to the practice of illegal exclusion and discrimination
Your point has been throughout that such noticed don't exist because they would be illegal - suggest you read particularly the Eric Piclkes article carefully and tell us why a senior govenment figure is indulging in practices designed to target an ethnic group.
You have aleady been given researched evidence evidence that such pracices not only exist but are common - you have chosen to ignore my experiances and the evidence put in front of you
I suggest you take a look for evidence that they don't exist, which is your claim, once again supporting racism, this time by denying it exists, rather then the actual supoort yu have given it in the past
I asked did you want me to put up your exact Pakistani quote for you saying you believed all British male Pakistanis have a cultural implant..... you didn't reply
Jim Carroll

http://citynewyorkstatenisland.academia.edu/PeterKabachnik/Papers/870967/To_choose_fix_or_ignore_culture_The_cultural_politics_of_Gypsy_and_Traveler_mobility_in_England

http://www.c-s-p.org/flyers/9781847181275-sample.pdf

http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Gypsies-Served-Miriam-Wakerly/dp/0955843219

http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/downloads/TT39_27052009165255.pdf

http://www.leicestershiretogether.org/gypsy_travellers_the_truth.pdf

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 09:10 AM

I did not claim the notices don't exist.
I said I do not believe they do.
Never having seen one in my life, I am yet to be convinced, but they are certainly NOT common.

Re the stuff from a year and a half ago, I think you mean this 3 sentence post.
The first sentence makes clear that I did not claim what you have accused me of claiming ever since.
The second sentence gives my belief (not claim) and why I believed those people whose view it was (NOT mine).
The third sentence asked why anyone would dismiss the views of those people. Still waiting for an answer to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things (Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing.).

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 09:25 AM

I suggest you take a look for evidence that they don't exist, which is your claim, once again supporting racism

What evidence would you like Jim?
A picture of an English scene without a notice?
Not very convincing.
You state and claim that they are common, but you can't find one either.
Now, how does any of that constitute "supporting racism" ?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 09:35 AM

"I did not claim the notices don't exist. I said I do not believe they do."
How stupid can this get - it si exactly the same thing - if you do not believe they exist then you are claiming thet do not exist, jus as when you said you, believe "I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" you are claiming that all male Pakistanis have a culturally implanted tadency - the subject was underage sex.
You have not even bothered to refer to the evidence you have just been presented with - game set and match.
How about this
.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 09:51 AM

"I did not claim the notices don't exist. I said I do not believe they do."
How stupid can this get - it is exactly the same thing - if you do not believe they exist then you are claiming that do not exist, just as when you said "I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" you are claiming that all male Pakistanis have a culturally implanted tedency - the subject was underage sex.
You have not even bothered to refer to the evidence you have just been presented with - game-set-and-match.
How about this I DO NOT BELIEVE FOR ONE MINUTE THAT YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE OF THESE NOTICES BUT ARE ONLY CLAIMING YOU HAVEN'T BECAUSE YOU ARE A FLAG WAVING NATIONALIST WHO IS PREPARED TO LIE, DISTORT AND DISPUTE FACTS PRESENTED TO YOU IN ORDER TO COVER UP BRITAIN'S ESTABLISHMEN IGNORING OF ILLEGAL RACISM
THIS CONVERSATION IS NOW OVER.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 11:23 AM

It is NOT exactly the same thing at all Jim.

I believe the weather forecast, but it is not my view.
It is that of the Met. Office.

I do not believe in ghosts, and I can state that I have never seen one, but I do not claim their non-existence.
Just yet to be convinced.
(I do know a lot of people who think they have seen a ghost, but none who think they have seen a "No Travellers" notice!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 02:17 PM

This thread has degraded into childish name-calling by two participants- please take your argument to PM. The rest of us don't give a damn.

Thread should be closed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 02:24 PM

"This thread has degraded into childish name-calling by two participants"
Couldn't agree more - though I hope the thread won't be closed
Apologies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 12 - 03:41 PM

Look again Q.
You will find not one example of name calling by me, or anyone else except Jim.
He claimed the notices were common, and I disagreed.
That is what happens when anyone disagrees with Jim.
I had moved the debate below the line before your post Q.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 06:16 AM

Here's the entry on this song from the Traditional Ballad Index:

No Irish Need Apply

DESCRIPTION: "I'm a decent boy just landed From the town of Ballyfad; I want a situation, yes, And want it very bad." He applies for various jobs, but is told time and again, "No Irish need apply." (At last he attacks one of the bosses and gains a job)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1922 (Dean)
KEYWORDS: emigration discrimination Ireland nonballad work fight
FOUND IN: US(MW)
REFERENCES (5 citations):
Dean, p. 65, "No Irish Wanted Here" (1 text)
Greenway-AFP, pp. 41-42, "No Irish Need Apply" (1 text, 1 tune)
Darling-NAS, pp. 364-366, "No Irish Need Apply" (1 text)
Silber-FSWB, p. 292, "No Irish Need Apply" (1 text)
DT, NOIRISH*
Roud #1137
RECORDINGS:
Pete Seeger, "No Irish Need Apply" (on PeteSeeger07, PeteSeeger07a, AmHist1)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "An Irish Laborer" (subject)
cf. "The Honest Irish Lad" (subject)
cf. "What Irish Boys Can Do" (subject)
NOTES: This is a bit of a conundrum, because this song seems to occur in two fairly distinct forms, which we might call "No Irish Need Apply" and "No Irish Wanted Here." In many of the former versions, the Irishman attacks the prejudiced employer. In some of the latter, there is none of that; the worker appeals to the work the Irish did in the Civil War to save the Union.
I was seriously tempted to split the two. But they have common lyrics; while I suspect a deliberate rewrite somewhere along the line, it is not really possible to tell where to draw the line. - RBW
File: DTnoris

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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Dec 14 - 07:15 PM

I believe that Pete Seeger acknowledged his creation of the song as it is currently song by combining elements from broadsides.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST,Chris Simmons
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 08:41 PM

The non-J.L. Poole "No Irish Need Apply". was originally sung in the U.S. by Kathleen O'Neill. It was originally written as a Music Hall song in Britain by (possibly)a Mrs.F. R. Phillips (in both a "ladies" and "gentlemans" versions). Mrs. Phillips seems to have been the first vocalist to sing it. In the U.S. Kathleen O'Neill was responsible for the introduction of the song. Kathleen was born in Dublin in 1833. She began her stage career in the provincial Music Halls of Ireland, then moved to London and sang in a the principal Halls. Coming to the States during the American Civil war the song was "Americanized" for her. Kathleen retired and moved to Muskegon, Michigan in 1877 and died there in 1905.   Early Music Hall Irish comedian Sam Collins also sang a "No Irish Need Apply" but I am not clear yet whether he sang O'Neill's version (in perhaps it's original "gentleman's" version) or someone else's composition. The Kathleen O'Neill version was recorded on New World Records THE HAND THAT HOLDS THE BREAD: Progress and Protest In The Gilded Age.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 01:59 PM

Mick Moloney has recorded the Seeger version with two further stanzas from Poole's original that Seeger deleted.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 07:27 PM

Tommy Makem has also recorded it...I think twice.get back to ye!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Feb 21 - 09:19 PM

While floating downriver on big rafts there are occasional shouts of All Irish Reapply! and all the white folk put on more sunscreen.

Subject: RE: Origins: No Irish Need Apply
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 06:41 PM

Thread #171611   Message #4151031
Posted By: MartinNail
26-Aug-22 - 05:49 AM
Thread Name: People's Song Bull - No Irish need apply
Subject: People's Song Bull - No Irish need apply

I see from Joe Offer's Index: People's Songs Bulletin thread that Pete Seeger published his version of 'No Irish need apply' in People's Song bulletin Vol III no 4 (1948). This doesn't seem to be online at The People’s Songs Archive, so does anyone know if this specific publication is available elsewhere, or how I might be able to get a scan of it?

Obviously, this version has been published and recorded many times since then but what I am interested in is this initial publication. A better place to post information about its subsequent history is here: Lyr Req: No Irish Need Apply.

Subject: RE: Origins: No Irish Need Apply
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 22 - 06:54 PM

The lyrics in the Digital Tradition are almost the same as what I found on pages 70-71 of the Second People's Song Book. Here is a comparison, with the differences from the DT lyrics noted in italics.

NO IRISH NEED APPLY (DT Lyrics) I'm a decent boy just landed From the town of Ballyfad; I want a situation, yes, And want it very bad. I have seen employment advertised, "It's just the thing," says I, "But the dirty spalpeen ended with 'No Irish Need Apply.' " "Whoa," says I, "that's an insult, But to get the place I'll try," So I went to see the blackguard With his "No Irish Need Apply." Some do count it a misfortune To be christened Pat or Dan, But to me it is an honor To be born an Irishman. I started out to find the house, I got it mighty soon; There I found the old chap seated, He was reading the Tribune. I told him what I came for, When he in a rage did fly, "No!" he says, "You are a Paddy, And no Irish need apply." Then I gets my dander rising And I'd like to black his eye To tell an Irish gentleman "No Irish Need Apply." Some do count it a misfortune To be christened Pat or Dan, But to me it is an honor To be born an Irishman. I couldn't stand it longer So a hold of him I took, And gave him such a welting As he'd get at Donnybrook. He hollered, "Milia murther," And to get away did try, And swore he'd never write again "No Irish Need Apply." Well he made a big apology, I told him then goodbye, Saying, "When next you want a beating, Write `No Irish Need Apply.' " Some do count it a misfortune To be christened Pat or Dan, But to me it is an honor To be born an Irishman.

NO IRISH NEED APPLY (2nd Peoples Song Book) I'm a decent boy just landed From the town of Ballyfad; I want a situation, And I want it very bad. I have seen employment advertised, "It's just the thing," says I, But the dirty spalpeen ended with 'No Irish Need Apply.' "Whoa," says I, "but that's an insult, Tho' to get the place I'll try," So I went to see this blackguard With his "No Irish Need Apply." Some do count it a misfortune To be christened Pat or Dan, But to me it is an honor To be born an Irishman. I started out to find the house, I got it mighty soon, There I found the old chap seated, He was reading the Tribune. I told him what I came for, When he in a rage did fly, "No!" he says, "You are a Paddy, And no Irish need apply." Then I gets my dander rising And I'd like to black his eye To tell an Irish gentleman "No Irish Need Apply." Some do count it a misfortune To be christened Pat or Dan, But to me it is an honor To be born an Irishman. I couldn't stand it longer So a-hold of him I took, And gave him such a welting As he'd get at Donnybrook. He hollered, "Milia murther," And to get away did try, And swore he'd never write again "No Irish Need Apply." Well he made a big apology, I told him then good-bye, Saying, "When next you want a beating, Write `No Irish Need Apply.' " Some do count it a misfortune To be christened Pat or Dan, But to me it is an honor To be born an Irishman.

Recorded by Seeger, also Moloney/Keane/O'Connel on Green Fields of
Amerikee.
@Irish @work @discrimination
filename[ NOIRISH
TUNE FILE: NOIRISH
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