Jim Moray....

Subject: Jim Moray....
From: Morris-ey
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:44 AM

....modern saviour of folk music or nerd with a MIDI who can't really sing that well? Discuss.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:52 AM

Check out this thread.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 05:59 AM

a friend of mind read out the programme notes just before I was about to compere him at at festival. The notes read (sort of) 'Jim Moray brings an inovative approach to Folk Music bringing in new sounds to take folk music into a modern dimension' to which my mate said I should add 'but personally I think it's pretenious shite'

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:02 AM

I think he's brilliant!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:10 AM

Personally, Guest, I think it's your friend who is is the pretentious shit.

But as Brian says, check out last summer's thread. No need to trot out all the old stuff again without drastic reworking and new and relevant interpretation. Jim wouldn't.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:36 AM

Well I think he is an excellent folksinger, excellent entertainer, and I have thoroughly enjoyed his live performances. Maybe the notes that Guest mentions are pretentious - but not Jim!
(I know we've done it all before on the other thread - but I can't help saying what I think...)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:38 AM

At last, "the king`s new suit of clothes" open for discussion.
Some months ago I took Mike Harding to task, via an e-mail, for describing a new Jim Moray CD (his words) as "the most fantastic folk music he`d heard in ages". My opinion was that young Jim`s singing would be appreciated by most folk club audiences as a floor spot and , with youth on his side, he has plenty of time to develop a stronger style and better interpretations of the music, but to use the word "fantastic" was very wide of the mark. I also suggested there are so many more singers and players to be heard who should be also considered, many of which are not to be found on CD`s.
I received no reply!!
People`s/Pub/Folk/Session music is alive and well and to be found thriving all over ; it is not in need of being re-discovered for "the yufe", they will learn to love or discard it in the fullness of time as many of us have done.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:52 AM

Modern saviour of folk music?
- no, no one person is going to do that, but he must be making some contribution to the acceptability of folk music in places where it was unappreciated before.

Nerd with a MIDI who can't really sing that well?
- no, a nerd with a MIDI who actually CAN sing well and can produce arrangements that work musically, even though in a different musical language from what most trad folkies are used to.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 06:55 AM

He is not a folksinger ar all, the beauty of folk song is that you can sing or play anywhere, Jim Moray is not much of a singer anyway
and he cant plug his computer in where there is no electric supply or a power cut.
Totally pretentious shite, but if he attracts some people into filk music who then go on to find good folk music, he then perhaps has done a good job.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:05 AM

Erm. He won an unaccompanied singing contest at Bromyard last year. Just saying...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:17 AM

The only entry was he?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:19 AM

....this looks an interesting and potentially libelous thread !!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:28 AM

good init

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:42 AM

His new band - Jim, bass and drums - plays against strange films projected on a screen. I thought the performance was a worthy candidate for the the Turner Prize (I wonder what Turner would say!) or at least a grant from the Arts Council. On the way out I found that the Arts Council had already awarded him a grant.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:45 AM

It is crap isn't it? Come on - it can't just be me?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest - Disgusted of Dagenham
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:50 AM

Left me wondering 'What is this shit'

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:58 AM

He does have some admirers. Nominations for the Radio 2 Folk Awards;

BEST ALBUM
An Echo Of Hooves - June Tabor
Righteousness & Humidity - Martin Simpson
Sweet England - Jim Moray
Underneath The Stars - Kate Rusby

BEST TRADITIONAL TRACK
Early One Morning/Young Collins - Jim Moray
Hughie Graeme - June Tabor
Lord Bateman - Jim Moray
Prickle Eye Bush - John Spiers & Jon Boden

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:59 AM

Why are we subjected to this stuff ?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:39 AM

Evolution!

lets all stay as monkey!

Tolerance

Lets Kill everyone who is not a folkie! (or should it be Non......like ourselves)

Give the man a break - Jim has an appeal - I don't like it too much but it is actually good and well presented.

Lets not all become bigoted and pretentious!

A

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Andrew
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 08:46 AM

Interesting reading this after the current thread -'is modern music shite ?'

I'm in no doubt what sort of music I would like 21 yr olds to develop. Saw him at Bromyard this year and really enjoyed his set, his stage style, his humour - in fact really enjoyed his set. Not sure that I would enjoy a CD as much, maybe i should buy one and decide.

Sure some songs I enjoyed more than others but name an artist that that doesn't apply to - could that be a new thread ? And my son who is 19 enjoyed it too. That's worth something as it isn't old farts like me that will keep the folk tradition going. Good on ya Jim.

And his dad is very proud of him ! Quite right too


Andrew

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:10 AM

The Folk Scene does need new blood, you are right Andrew and there some fine folks around 422, Ola, the Pack, Harriet Bartlett, Kate Rusby et al are all there and others whilst us sad old gits zimmer frame onto retirement. True Jim is innvative and what he's doing is unique but it's not for me and in saying that I'm not being a luddite, I'm just expressing my own view that however well created his music is, it just didn't do it for me.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:13 AM

Guest ? he probably got all his nominations from Mike Harding.
He describes every single thing he plays in superlatives, no one can
love everything that much.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:18 AM

Thanks heavans for this thread. I thought it was only me.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:25 AM

I'm sorry that I missed Jim Moray at Preston recently, but it must be said that the publicity does set the hackles up. You know that when this kind of blurb is used, the prospect is of a load of pretentious crap: the prejudices are thus established before giving the man himself a fair chance. Presumably the argument is that enough people who like p.c. waffle are attracted to overcome the money lost from those put off.

There's a long tradition of criticising new musical approachs into folk - however good or bad they were, they acted as magnets for people who (for whatever reason) needed to "grow" into the hard core stuff rather than loving it at first encounter. Good luck to Jim Moray, it sounds as if he is doing something interesting, and (whether you or I like what he does or not) the effect can only be good for the folk "cause".

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:09 AM

Hi folks,

JM seems to be one of those artists who provoke extreme reactions when they first appear on the scene. But once their initial impact has been absorbed, such performers rarely seem as bad as their detractors have claimed - or as good as their supporters have asserted. Only time will tell.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that JM has great potential, but still has some way to go before discovering what his strengths are, and how he can make best use of them. Meanwhile, if people are willing to buy his records and attend his concerts, then he has an incentive (as well as a democratic right) to carry on experimenting. And listeners who have doubts about his experiments should wait a while before condemning him and all his works in perpetuity.   

Of course, it's possible that some other performers are sore because JM has gained so much attention in such a short time, while their own worthy efforts have remained ignored or undervalued for years.   If so, they should stop griping and start learning.   However high our ideals, and however "pure" our repertoire, if we charge people money to hear us sing and play, then we are in show business. And to thrive in show business, we must either learn to give the public what they want, or persuade the public to want what we have to give. Either way, promotion is essential:

"He who whispers down a well about the goods he has to sell
Will not make as many dollars as he who climbs a tree and hollers." (Anon)

So far, JM appears to have made a very good job of promoting his career. In due course, we may be able to reach an informed consensus on the lasting value of his contribution. But for the moment, let's give him some time to work out what he can do best, and avoid subjecting him to a flood of excessive praise, or a barrage of over-harsh criticism.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:47 AM

I am all for innovation and so on, and I really do wish Jim Moray well. I am not sure his music is as innovative as Fairport, Steeleye, Fotheringay for example were innovative in their day. Certainly every aspiring rock musician has no problems recording material in their bedroom as Jim did so nothing new there. I suggest that Jim has been at the receiving end of some excellent publicity and I suggest that that publicity has been cleverly orchestrated. No objections again - just that publicity does not equal talent and I reckon the jury is out on that one.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Jackie O
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:32 PM

Whilst I was quite dissappointed that this thread had been started again, after the occassionally hurtful nature of the last one, I've just used Mike of Northumbria's quote in my uni essay...so thanks for being so insightful!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Another view
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

Folkiedave, I have seen many references over the last few months that refer to 'hype' 'publicity machine' 'purchased promotional success' 'orchestrated publicity' in the same context as Jim Moray. As someone who works in the music industry I'd like to take the chance to dispel a few myths about how people get coverage in the press.

First and foremost you cannot 'buy' press coverage. To get a press agent you must first convince the agent that your music will interest and warrant attention from the press. He or she does not want to look an idiot presenting something second rate to the press on whom he or she relies for his or her business. Also he or she does not want to be in the position of taking a client's money and delivering no press coverage. This also would be bad for business. So right from the start something of quality must be there in the music.

The agent will then present the artist and music to the press. While a great press release can be interesting to read, in the end it is once again the music that will convince the journalist, who understandably doesn't want to be seen to promote something that the rest of the world will not rate.

So Jim can pay a press agent but cannot buy reviews. He also cannot control what a journalist writes, good or bad, no more than he can control what you put on this messageboard.

If he gets great reviews it is because the people whose job it is to find great music, believe in what he is doing. While I know that Jim is hugely embarrassed by some of the compliments paid to him in the press, I would have to say that if those guys think there is something of merit in what he is doing then it might be worth giving it a second listening.

You might ask yourselves how much of the attention for Jim has been earned by paid for advertising. The truth is, almost none to date. So before you have a pop at Jim over the 'hype' take a look at what everyone else is doing.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 02:52 PM

I agree with Mike of Northumbria. I went to a concert at the Ham Marquee in Sidmouth with Dr Faustus followed by Jim Moray. My opinion might have been coloured by the hardness of the seating, but I found Jim's vocal style left me cold. Might grow on me later though.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:30 PM

So Kitty, didn't you stay for the closing act, the Demon Barber Roadshow? I nominated the entire concert in the 'Best Live Act' category for the BBC Folk Awards. Dr Faustus, Jim and the Demons - what an amazing combination!

And yes, thanks to Mike of Northumbria and 'Another View' for putting what has become the 'Moray phenomenen' into perspective. No-one is paid/bribed/coerced to attend his gigs nor to praise a performance in which they fail to see merit.

So you prefer to listen to other things? Then go ahead. Just don't criticise what you don't understand, as another often misrepresented artistic genius said.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Helen
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 03:41 PM

It is my opinion that even aside from the electronic stuff, Jim is a fantastic musician. Properly, really, inferiority-complex-generatingly-good. I think that anyone who can come up with arrangements like he does, however contraversial, deserves considerable credit. And just because they don't fit into people's interpretation of what is 'usual' doesn't mean they are not relevant, or are bad. OK, they might shock your ears if you're unused to people doing something different, but then, so do the tunings of, say, Javanese Gamelan, when first heard by the western ear. So do many modern classical compositions. So did composers such as Shostakovich and Vivaldi, in their day. Just because something is different to what you're used to, it isn't necessarily wrong.

For another thing, this way of rather publicly slagging someone off over the internet is a bit low, isn't it? It's like walking on stage during someone's gig and insulting them in front of their entire audience, their family, their next door neighbours and their dog. I bet none of you would dare do that.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:29 PM

To "Another View"

I think that is all very well in theory. In fact of course many journalists will use what they are given and if it is presented as new and innovative then they tend to bite.

If they know little about (for example) folk music do they go out and find out if what the publicity machine says is true? Err........I sincerely doubt it.

As for the judgement of music journalists.......don't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

"He's just twenty-one but he's single-handedly turning the English folk music world on its head".

"I think what I do is just folk music from the point of view of someone that has heard hip-hop and The Smiths and Ligetti and Joseph Taylor and Radiohead and S-Club, and doesn't differentiate past whether its good or not".

"The finished album 'Sweet England' is unlike anything else from the folk world". ( All taken verbatim from his website).

Well Jim and his publicity machine may believe those are truthful recommendations. I am afraid I don't.

Let me repeat what he does is great, he is a good singer. I do not have any objection to any of this, just that I like to see what the publicity says about Jim tested for truth. I remain to be convinced.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Singer
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 07:45 PM

I saw his unnacompanied performance at Bromyard, he did the Bonny Black Hare. It was different to say the least. I thought he was taking the p*ss!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 09:12 PM

Countess Richard

I originally went to the Ham Marquee because I wanted to see the Demon Barber Roadshow. I left because I didn't want to hear any more of Jim Moray. But like I said, he might grow on me later. I was talking to somebody at Herga on Monday who said she'd seen Martin Carthy 3 times and she didn't rate him. It's all pretty subjective.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:05 AM

I tend to agree with that last bit.

I was totally knocked out by a number of artists on hearing them for the first time. Martin Carthy was not amongst them - loved the sound but hating the constant tuning up. As a non-guitarist and pretty un-musical person I never realised he was changing the tunings and thought it was an irritating affection!

If anyone wants to hear another way that folk music can be treated innovatingly I reckon the Guichen Quartet are as good as anything - though they are Breton/Irish.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Morris-ey
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:19 AM

Personally I quite like the "treatments" he gives to the songs but cannot get on at all with his voice which drives me up the wall.

Nor do I think the music press (and folk music pundits in particular) do him any favours with the hype they broadcast. What he is doing is not new or particularly innovative - even in folk circles. I doubt that he will have any influence at all in bringing non-folkies into the fold despite his youth and electronic wizardry but good luck to him anyway.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:47 AM

Knocking Martin Carthy doesn't make Jim Moray any better.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:41 AM

If I have given the impression that I was knocking ANYONE then let me withdraw. I am not enamoured with Jim's publicity and I remain to be convinced the hype is true. His singing is fine.

I certainly was NOT knocking Martin Carthy who remains to my mind one of the most influential post-war singers. I was saying that the first time I saw him I found his constant tuning up (as I, in my ignorance thought it was) an irritation.

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 06:54 AM

Helen, are you seriously suggesting that an internet discussion board, devoted to folk music, should not permit people to say what they do and don't like about performers, their art and their publicity? Why ever not?

There's no comparison to interrupting a live performance. I could comment on people who walk in and out to the bar/their seats in the middle of songs, which I think very bad manners.

OK, on the net sometimes things are not phrased in the most tactful manner, and perhaps would not be said in quite the same way to the artist face-to-face. I think most of us are grown-up about that, and do make some allowance in what we read.

The bottom line is that a performer is making a public display of himself, and the public are entitled to comment on it.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:16 AM

Surely to goodness if Moray and his crew wish to court publicity they shouldn't be surprised that not everybody is falling over themselves to say how wonderful Moray is! He's a very ordinary singer with a grasp of technical know-how and a good publicity machine. He is not the saviour of folk music or any other music come to that although obviously intending to use the poor put upon folk world as a spring board to a more commercially viable genre.

And its no good Countess Richard leaping down peoples throats just because they express an opinion that is not in line with her own!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:29 AM

I only said nobody's forcing you to listen, Guest. Play what you like, go to whoever's concerts you like.   So long as it's what YOU think. Though it sounds as though you base your opinions on what a mate said....

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:42 AM

What gives you that idea? And having looked Jim Moray up via the knowledge search I see the Countess to be very prominent as regards Jim Moray publicity on this forum.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:44 AM

Well said Santa. It is patently obvious from the response to the original question that the jury is still out regarding JM and what he has to offer but if he clever he will listen to the deserved criticisms, take them on board as all professionals should do, as all and react accordingly.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:49 AM

The fact that he has got you all taking and arguing quite vociferously means he is making you think so already has one huge success to chalk up!

My 16 yr old daughter worhips both him and his music - she can wear a CD out in 2 Days. Look at the ageist comments on the folk awards threads!

give hiom space - he'll sink or swim or praps just float for a while bu it is a pleasure having him there and see him making an impact in so many ways - all useful.

A

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:06 AM

Guest, I got it from your original post. And no, I'm not on Jim Moray's payroll.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Jason King
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:31 AM

Santa, I think you've missed the point in Helen's comments somehow.

Yes this site is devoted to folk music and it is great that it allows people to express their opinions but in this case the musical criticism is getting totally mixed up with criticism of Jim in general. Even if people don't like his music, it is not fair to use terms such as 'nerd' and suggest he can't sing, as they do not know anything about him other than what is presented through the distorting nature of the media.

The folk music world is a lot smaller and more personal than other genres and so the artists themselves, and their families and friends do read what is being written about them and are going to get upset and hurt by it. Why should anyone have to take slagging off such as this from people who have no real reason for saying it?

This messageboard has already had a go at ripping Jim apart once, I think its time to leave him alone to get on with doing what he does. He is a musician who has come to recieve the success he has through musical talent and is making a public display of himself for the music alone.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 08:51 AM

OK, fair's fair, I went back and re-read what Helen said. No, I don't think I did misunderstand.

Passing comment on a web-page is nothing like "walking on stage during someone's gig and insulting them in front of their entire audience, their family, their next door neighbours and their dog". I think I mentioned that some people go over the top on the net, but the term "nerd" is in fairly common use for someone who is heavily into computers/electronics, and that does seem to fit here. My daughter treats the term as a compliment. You should hear her on "townies"....

As for "no real reason", I think that a love of anything can generate a lot of emotion for its protection, clearly folk music enthusiasts are no different there. People should rise up in defence whenever they see something good under threat. Whether Jim's music actually threatens anything is another matter - I'm not going there until I've heard it.

I find this discussion has been informative, but agree that it doesn't seem to be going anywhere new, people are beginning to repeat themselves.

Mind you, anyone who takes their dog to a concert of amplified electronic music deserves all the criticism they get. (Joke. OK?)

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Dear me
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:17 PM

FolkieDave admits he is 'un-musical' and Santa admits he hasn't heard the music yet but is quite happy to join in a slagging match nevertheless. I think everyone who joined this discussion who is a folk musician jealous of Jim's success should hold their hands up now! Where's Mike of Northumbria, a sane voice in a world, when you need him.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Santa
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 02:54 PM

dear me, Dear me.

I'm not slagging his music, maybe his publicity; nor am I a folk musician, nor ever likely to be one. There are more points made in this discussion than those just limited to mere music. It's about people and their peculiarities, a never-ending source of interest.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:30 PM

When I say I am un-musical I mean I don't read music and didn't understand the technicalities of guitar playing at that time. The folk scene needs people who will run folk clubs and festivals and use organisational skills as well as it needs musicians. They are entitled to thier opinion regarding artists capabilities and talents especially as they are often backing it with hard cash.

Since Jim's defenders/supporters seem unable to read carefully what people write, let me say again I think Jim is a good singer. I do not think his record is as innovative as the publicity claims. I am happy to stand by both of those statements.

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Dead Ant
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:44 PM

Glad we are keeping you amused Santa.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:51 PM

'I'm interpreting traditional songs in my own way, he [Jim Moray] says, 'But I don't even feel it's innovative. I just make music that's influenced by everything around me.' Uncut, current issue.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 04:55 PM

'I'm interpreting traditional songs in my own way,' he [Jim Moray] says, 'But I don't feel it's innovative. I just make music that's influenced by everything around me.' Uncut, current issue. Not innovative, different and worth a listen I say, but hey if you don't like it go listen to something else as Countess Richard says. I'm sure no-one will mind.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 05:43 PM

"He's just twenty-one but he's single-handedly turning the English folk music world on its head."

Opening words of his biography on his website. I disagree.

'I'm interpreting traditional songs in my own way,' he [Jim Moray] says, 'But I don't feel it's innovative. I just make music that's influenced by everything around me.' Uncut, current issue. Not innovative, different and worth a listen I say,

So do I!!

Regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 05:54 PM

I'm really astonished at all these guest-type people about. A mere 5 months ago, I joined Mudcat to throw in my 2p worth at a collection of folkier-than-thou, blinkered and insensitive contributors who took it upon themselves to attack and malign an artist who I knew slightly and admired greatly.

I joined because I couldn't quite see how to sign in as a guest and because some things needed to be said in defence of Jim Moray who wasn't even in the country at the time to speak for himself. Since then, I have contributed to a number of discussions, meanwhile observing with a certain amount of horror the narrow-mindedness and petty venom of some people associated with this forum towards any artist whose approach did not accord with their bizarrely narrow conception of what traditional music actually is.

Really, I just don't understand why some of you are here when you are so unprepared to welcome and encourage brilliant new artists with approaches to music that may not have occurred previously to you. I have in mind here not just this thread and its equally acrimonious predecessor, but also that on the Young Folk Awards running concurrently on this forum.

I'm convinced that some of you actually want the music to die with you. I predict that you'll be disappointed...and I really don't care.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 03 - 07:33 PM

At his Preston concert, Jim got out his acoustic guitar and said, "Before I alienate you..." Alas, it was too late.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:24 AM

In addition to all my other faults, it seems I'm unable to distinguish between nerds and geeks. So I apologise to all uber-geeks in the audience, and especially grovel to Alpha Geek herself.

Otherwise unrepentant, I query what "being out of the country" has to do with comments on the internet? For what its worth, Mudcat is a US-based website, with contributors from Australia to Guam (even if that it doesn't look far on my school atlas).

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 04:35 AM

The so-called "controversy" on this thread seems to vanish when you look at it. All seems rather reminiscent of Nic Jones related threads a year or so ago, which turned into squabbling very quickly: not by general argument, but by artfully inserted inflammatory statements. Well, it certainly helped generate publicity.
What we have on this thread is a lot of people who like Jim Moray, a lot who dont, and some inbetweenies. Hardly an unusual or inflammatory state of affairs. The only strange factor is one person who calls her or his opponents blinkered, insensitive, narrow-minded, petty, venemous etc etc.
    It is difficult ignoring this sort of thing, but those of us who want to discuss an interesting topic have to do the best we can to recognise, and thenm ignore, the stirring.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 11:17 AM

Hello again!

Guest_DearMe asks "where is Mike of Northumbria…?"

Well, Mike has a day-job, a family, and various time-consuming hobbies … but he still visits the Mudcat occasionally. So, a few more thoughts from the Deep North...

Perhaps it might help to resolve this argument if we tried to separate two issues which keep getting tangled up here. One is that contributors to this thread have widely differing estimates of the quality of JM's work. The other is that a number of our correspondents are seriously annoyed by JM's promotional material, and by some of the media comment on him.

On the first point. Those who like what JM does are free to attend his concerts and buy his records - those who don't are free to stay away, and spend their pocket money on other people's CDs. Both groups are entitled to express their opinions (though I'd be happier if some of those opinions were expressed less aggressively). But while discussion and analysis may change what people think, they rarely change how people feel. At some stage, we can only agree to differ, and move on to other subjects.

On the second point. I don't think the journalists and radio presenters who made extravagant claims for JM's significance were bribed or coerced. I believe they were making honest value-judgements (even though I may not share their values). As to the publicity material distributed by JM and his management – well, they are engaged in a commercial venture. If they have made good choices, they will prosper: if not, they won't. The market will decide. That's show business, folks.   Those of us who don't like the hype are free to mock it, or to ignore it. Eventually the tides of time will wash the dross away, and leave the gold for posterity.

And my own opinion? Well, I think that JM is a promising new talent, who deserves encouragement – and some constructive criticism where appropriate. Praising him as folk's new messiah, or slagging him off as a worthless poseur, are equally unjust, and equally unhelpful. So far, most of what I've heard from him sounds more like work in progress than the finished article. But he clearly has something fresh and interesting to contribute, and I'm sure he will continue to evolve and improve. Meanwhile he is giving quite a few people a lot of pleasure. Good luck to him say I.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,another disillusioned guest
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 11:53 AM

I am not an old fogey, I am not anti the technical and electronic gadgetery of Mr M's performance.... I simply do NOT like his singing voice which I find intensley irritating and the thought of being subjected to a whole album of it makes me cringe!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,doh
Date: 12 Dec 03 - 08:36 PM

Another Disillusioned Guest, have you read a single word of the message above? If you have nothing constructive to say....

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: black walnut
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 10:00 AM

I like Jim Moray in live performance and on CD, and when I played the CD in the car for my folk-ballad hating 19 year old son, he asked me to give him a copy for Christmas.

There's not only one way to do something well.

~b.w.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: John Routledge
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 10:12 AM

Spot on b.w.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 10:19 AM

GUEST COMMENTATOR, you will never get a reply from Mike Harding if you criticise him, only if you complement him.
I sent him quite a few emails and only got a reply from his producer Jon Leonard, however he did write an article for the Living Tradition magazine and slagged me off publicly.
eric

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Lidy
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 03:00 PM

I have issues with Mr Moray as a person but I will still stand up in his defence as a musician: I put on his records and I am amazed. It's just nice to have something a bit different in the record collection. Forget the hype, he's only human, and Black Walnut's right. Maybe we should just create a new genre for him and then we won't all have to get so het up about what he's doing in folk. As for whether he's a poseur or not, those who have been following him for a while (his career, not like round his house going through his bins) will probably agree that he's come a long way in confidence and technical skill in a relatively short period of time. If it's not your cup of tea, I have to agree with the Countess, it's hardly as if you're being forced to listen to it. Give a young man a chance! And my advice is to keep checking out his new stuff even if the previous recordings didn't stir something in you- I can't imagine he'll be sitting still in terms of interpretation for long.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 04:00 PM

Yep. Lidy's right. Give the guy a break, one that he really deserves after nearly two months on the road when the gigs I saw were a great success musically and technically and received with acclaim. Why on earth should some of you continue to begrudge Jim Moray his success?

As Lidy says, he won't be sitting still for long. No one's going to laugh at you for being a bit late in checking out his new ventures. He's far from fully formed yet.    You still don't want to listen? Your loss.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 08:04 PM

I like Jim Moray very much. I first saw him with the Oysterband some months ago and thought "Wow!!!!!!" I've seen him a couple of times since then. He's different. He's refreshing. Some of the remarks in this thread have been really personal and nasty.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Colin.O
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:42 AM

Wow - that someone who has only been on the circuit for about a year (
Being new on the circuit he has still a lot to learn - but imagine where he'll be then?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Beardy
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 04:21 PM

I refer to the question posed in the original post...in my opinion....a nerd with a MIDI who cant really sing that well.

I saw Jim 4 times at various festivals during the year and cannot understand the fuss being made. I have seen the 'uture of folk music' many times during years of listening to folk and attending festivals. Martyn Bennett was proclaimed when he released ' Bothy Ballads' and Dr Didg has been using samples and loops for years.

However whilst I dont like Jim Moray myself I see no reason why others cannot appreciate his interpretations and vocal style nad a festival programme that appeals equally to everyone would be unique in my opinion.

Variety is what we crave; we can then judge for ourselves.

Stewart

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: tartan babe
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:15 PM

Is what Jim doing innovative?

Just because people in the folk world generally dislike electrickery, doesn't mean to say that what he does is new. Hearing that he was nominated 4 times for radio 2, made me quite annoyed. Are there really so few musicians out there that were worthy of being nominated.

What Jim does is good, but in the grand scheme of music things, it's not new and it's not innovative. I'd rather hear what Martin Bennett does. He doesn't try to to be innovative, he just fuses different styles.

Having said this, does Jim really think he's being innovative. I doubt it. Jim probably had to put innovative in his program notes just to try and get old bearded folkies to take notice of the demon electronics.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:50 PM

Martyn Bennett's work might best be described as a fusion of Scottish traditional music with the contemporary club scene while Jim Moray is reinterpreting English traditional music. A contrast is perfectly feasible but a comparison nonsensical.

Whapweasel or perhaps Chumbawamba might bear comparison with Martyn Bennett as Alasdair Roberts might with Jim Moray.

I too feel Martyn Bennett deserved a Folk Awards nomination, if only for his "innovatory" overlaying of Jeannie Robertson onto a dance track.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:12 AM

Tartan Babe check out Jim's own view on the question of innovation, above in this thread or in the current issue of Uncut.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM

Apart from a 21st. Century Stylophone how exactly is Jim Moray re-interpreting English folk music?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM

Thanks to "eric the red",
                         I`m somewhat dismayed to learn I`m not the only one who has been dismissed by M.H. but at least I feel in good company. As you have read my, criticism of him was that he described the J.Moray CD as "fantastic". One would have thought he would have had the balls to reply and defend his choice of adjective. If this is truly how he feels then one can only assume his emotions for certain other singers and musicians with whom we are blessed must be beyond desciption.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:38 AM

The number of musicians mixing traditional folk recordings with other dance rhythms and various computer stuff can now be numbered in the thousands rather than hundreds; perhaps we should be a little cautious about the way words like "innovative" are sprayed around.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:11 AM

So Nerd with a MIDI it is then!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:17 AM

...who actually CAN sing well, as Anahata said. And who can produce musical arrangements that work.

So that's full circle. Now can we draw the line?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:20 AM

But that's only your opinion - - so no!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:25 AM

Not just mine, by any means. But what more can there be to say till his next venture. It really won't be long......

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:27 AM

And the publicity machine grinds on...and on..and on..

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:40 AM

Time for a tirade.

Why is everyone so opinionated and bigoted!

Sorry - a few have been honest and said don't like it and left it there.

He's (JIM) filling Gigs, concert halls and selling CDs - is it the old adage folkies don't like success stories

Or he thought of it B4 you did

Or there are a few inferiority complexes out there I don't know.

Or plain deadly sin - green eyes and envy!!!

I like folkies (myself included) 'cos we are tolerant and easy going not usually bigoted and opinionated but this thread throws all that to the wind! - Bit like the Young folk awards one!

Fortunately there is a lot of good stuff on here too!

AND He's got you all ranting and raving for well mover a week or two recently - I bet that sold a few tickets etc. so that osme could see what all the fuss is about so we are all part of the publicity machine!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:26 AM

The publicity machine...

Jim obviously has a natural talent for publicity. By training, instinct, paying for it or sheer hard work, he knows how to get himself promoted.

I think that's why some people here are suspicious or jealous. But just because some airheaded teeenage slut can be turned into a pop star by the "Music Industry", doesn't mean that anyone who has a good publicity operation has no talent, nor otherwise.

The trouble with fame and publicity is that it's a two edged sword - everything you do, good or bad, gets talked about and exaggerated.

In the other JM thread, I objected to the hype, not because he's bad (he isn't) but because there are lots of other performers around who are great singers and musicians and are almost unheard of. Perhaps one lesson to be learnt is that a bit of careful self promotion doesn't do any harm - unfortunately it's something that a lot of "purist" folkies don't believe in very much. As someone who has recently made the transition from a "floor spot + resident band" supporter of his local folk club to part of a duo that does paid gigs, I've had to learn that process step by step, and it's hard work (and still learning, all the time).

I think it's great that he's aroused the interest of some "folk-hating" teenagers. Let's hope that new interest gets them listening to other folk material with a new understanding. Every little helps...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

hear hear (or is it here here) Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:32 AM

I really am puzzled by this thread. The basic points seem to boil down to:-
1."Jim doesn't have a very good voice" (well, neither did Bert Lloyd...),
2."The publicity material talks about him in good terms" (but wouldn't it be daft to have a press release that said "Jim Moray is distinctly average...". And for that matter, I'm sure Jim himself never wrote that.)
3. "The media writes about him, and not Tom/Dick/Geoff" (Yet, for years the folk world has bemoaned the lack of press coverage for traditional music, and when some comes along its somehow evil..)

Like the Countess, I think I can see now that its not traditional music that people are interested in preserving, but 'folk music' as a static genre. I thought it was all about making sure the ancient music of England was still sung and didn't disappear. Obviously I was wrong. So, lets sort this out once and for all - what Jim does is not really folk music as such is it? Its rock music using traditional songs. Because if folk music means conforming to such a narrow definition then I'm not even sure I want to consider myself a folk fan anymore.

Oh, and the comments about "422. Ola, the Pack et al" nearer the top of the thread made me chuckle... If only you knew...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,spittal B
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:11 PM

Looking at JM's bookings for the next twelve months I'm glad to see that there are more excellent bands who want hm to appear with him than there are knockers on this site. When the folk performers like the Oyster band are asking for him to support them I feel they may no more than the armchair moaners, Keep at it Jim

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM

Never had any interest in hearing or seeing Jim Moray - until this thread!

I'll def. check him out now - might also help with the MIDI programming course I am doing next year!

All the best
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 08:54 AM

Saw Jim do an acoustic set recently, Early one morning with jim on acoustic guitar backed by two fiddlers was excellent. His voice like many singers just takes some time to get accustmed too.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:45 AM

Congrats Jim on two awards, Best Album and the Horizon award
look forward to the next CD

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Eccosse
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:04 PM

I recently saw Jim at Celtic Connections were he was support for Karine Polwart. I had never heard of him until this point and now I can't get away from him in the press - they love him!

Personnally, I simply cannot see what the hype is about. I thought he lacked the charisma needed to be "front man" performer, his voice was rather weak. The person sitting next to me actually fell asleep it was so monotonous.

Although I can appreciate what he is trying to do, his recent success at the Folk awards in my opinion was unjustified. Perhaps in a few years once his voice has matured may I feel different.
m-c

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:03 AM

I see that Sweet England has made it into the Indie top 40
and amazon top 100 well done jim, What now the Video??

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

On accepting his best newcomer prize at the BBC Folk Awards ceremony, Jim Moray said:

"I'd like to thank all the people who know absolutely nothing about folk music who've bought my record."

And that just about sums up both the positive and the negative aspects of the situation.

On the positive side, thousands of young record buyers who rarely listened to folk music before are now being exposed to traditional tunes and lyrics. With luck, some of them may eventually move on towards wider musical horizons.   

On the negative side, people who know a little more about folk music will have heard JM's most distinctive techniques used before (and better) by others. (For example, on Martyn Bennett's "Bothy Culture" or Altar Native's "Cumbrian Odyssey".)    It's understandable if some of them believe that JMs fame is greater than his talents merit. But it's also unfair and short-sighted.

Unfair, because JM has clearly got talent - even if it isn't quite as massive a talent as some of his cheer-leaders would have us believe. And short-sighted, because anything that introduces folk music to a larger audience is a good thing.

Having seen JM, as well as heard him, I can now understand his appeal better. He has exactly the right look, the right style, and the right attitude to attract a young following.   The way he dresses, the way he carries himself, the way he addresses his public - they all proclaim "I'm one of you … you could be me!" And that, more than any other factor, is what attracts a mass youth audience. The music has always been secondary.

Think back a few decades. What did the grown-ups say about Buddy Holly, Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger, and many others? "Unwashed snotty-nosed kids, who mumble illiterate lyrics to banal tunes and can't even play their instruments properly." And up to a point, that was true – but it didn't matter to us because they were young, we were young, and the times they were a-changin', or so we thought.   

Today, when listening to digitally remastered classics of the '50s and '60s, I can hear the technical deficiencies I missed the first time around. But the best of those recordings still convey the energy and the commitment that captivated me then. I wish I could stay around long enough to find out which of today's hit recordings JM's generation will be re-purchasing in updated formats when they've grown grey and affluent. But in the here and now, I think the best advice for members of my generation is, as the man once said to our parents,

"Don't criticise what you can't understand,
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command."

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 AM

I love the Jim Moray CD, but........when the accordian player in our band said Moray's singing voice reminded him of Frank Spencer, I can see what he means.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Beardy
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:46 AM

JM can be seen in the Celtic Connections programme on BBC4 this weekend.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:48 AM

"I'm one of you … you could be me!" And that, more than any other factor, is what attracts a mass youth audience. The music has always been secondary.

Wise words as usual from Mike of Northumbria.

The mystery of Jim's sudden rise to popularity despite debatable musical qualities (I'm not expressing an opinion, just observing that there is disagreement generally) has been partly solved for me by recently finding out how he went about promoting his first recording. The methods of the pop music industry are expensive, but they produce results. They are also appropriate for the target audience that he clearly wishes to attract.

The current fRoots article says he's feeling somewhat overwhelmed by it all. I'm not surprised. I don't think I'd want to launch a performing career for myself with such force even if I could afford it. I've just had a recording session, a local radio interview and two gigs all in the space of three days and that was quite enough excitement for me - I need a weekend off!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:19 AM

Terry - that Frank Spencer thing is a right bummer!

There was an episode where Frank sings "Early one morning just as the sun was rising" - and Jim's rendition is SSSSOOOO similar that it cracks me up every time, even though it makes me hate myself....

Other than that, I think Jim is wonderful!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: *Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:04 AM

this is very interesting. i'm actually fascinated by how some people are so fiercely defensive of him, while others umm.... aren't! wow - i won't comment other than to say i was beginning to worry that i was the only one of my opinion! (whatever that may be) now i am reassured.
Thanks guys!

x

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:46 PM

Well I finally heard him on BBC4 this week.

I don't think I'm a musical bigot in any sense affecting this debate (yes, I have some dislikes, country included, but that is not relevant to Moray) and I listen to a range from unaccompanied trad English folk to fairly heavy metal, albeit not much modern "urban" (metal is urban too, and so is punk, but they never seem to be labelled that way).

It all seems a bit much to get too worked up about it. Fairly interesting (but not shatteringly interesting) arrangements. I don't really think a visual element in the presentation of music can be thought of as groundbreaking - I went to several "multimedia happenings" in the 60s.

But it isn't all that wonderful, and I agree with those who say he is an unimpressive singer - not "bad" but his voice is not good and not interesting. In summary I am underwhelmed. I damn him with faint praise.

There again that does not mean he will be uninfluential. Dylan may well have been a considerable commentator and songwriter (and minor poet) but he must have been one of the worst singers ever. He made his own songs almost unlistenable, until someone else sang them.

And Johnny Cash, as a singer (as distinct from song stylist) was worse. No pitch, no tone, no range. Little scansion.

If Moray fails as badly as both of them he will do alright, but I will still be fairly unimpressed.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:33 AM

It's going to be an on-going "problem". With so little young talent entering the folk field, anybody who arrives with even a modest talent is going to have an inordinate amount of praise heaped up on them. Back in the 60s, Jim Moray wouldn't have caused any ripples at all.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:11 AM

"With so little young talent entering the folk field..."

That would be a field on the planet Zog? Folkworks and Shooting Roots are not yet operating there but when they do there'll be hordes of (possibly green) young players, dancers and singers revelling in and restoring to relevance whatever consitutes their traditional inheritence. Just as is occurring here now in festivals and community venues everywhere. Not so much in the clubs though with Victor Meldrew-inspired throwbacks to put them down.

" Back in the 60s..."

Yeah. I cringe to remember a lot of what we got up to then in what went under the name of a 'folk scene'. Those who were good (and are still with us) are still up there doing it. Had Jim Moray been around way back then perhaps the Peter Paul & Mary and Seekers lookalikes would have been despatched sooner, on a tidal wave rather than a ripple.

PS Bob Dylan *can* sing...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:46 PM

At my local folkclub in the sixties, there were two performers who were so much more talented than Jim Moray. They never got very far on the wider stage for various reasons, but they had it! Back then, the numbers attending folkclubs must be 100 times more than now, and subsequently, the amount of " talent" to draw from was vast compared with today. No, I dismiss all the computer tech thing. If the Jim Moray of today - with just a guitar, got up at my local way back when, he wouldn't have been considered anything special.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 02:53 PM

It's been mentioned more than once here before but it's clearly worth repeating that Jim Moray won the unaccompanied song competition at Bromyard last year. Had he been performing in the 1960s he would most likely have done so with an acoustic guitar.   As a renaissance performer he'd probably have had a lute or in the early years of last century, a free reed instrument or a banjo. As it is, he is performing in the 21st century and, obviously, uses amplified instruments and programming available now in order to express most aptly what he has to say.

Yes, there were many more folk clubs 30 or 40 years ago and many more people attended. We didn't have that much else to do. Unlike Tunesmith, however, I haven't forgotten how dreadful most of it was. The young performers today far surpass what most of us were capable of then, both technically and academically.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:00 PM

BUT - from what period did the giants of folk emerge? If we're talking about real talent! Who on the English folk scene in the past 20 years, for example, has emerged with the talent of a Carthy, MacColl, Tabor, Denny, Nick Jones etc, etc.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

Of those mentioned by Tunesmith, only Martin Carthy and June Tabor are still performing. Nic Jones is unable to and the other two are long dead. There are a handful of others who started then who are still regularly on the road:   Louis Killen, Pete Coe, John Kirkpatrick, and Dick Gaughan are probably the most active. And sadly, two of the greatest, Peter Bellamy and Tony Rose are no longer with us and the Dransfields no longer perform.

Interesting though that you should cite Nic Jones and June Tabor. These are two of Jim Moray's greatest influences. Who else with similar talent has emerged in the past 20 years? You could start by looking at the revivalists' children: Eliza Carthy, Nancy Kerr, Benji Kirkpatrick (and all the rest of Dr Faustus), Rose Kemp. And the many brought up on their parents' vinyl, morris dancing and festival involvement: such as Spiers & Boden, Kate Rusby, Laurel Swift. Jim Moray has said that Sidmouth Festival was his family's annual holiday...

The wave that preceded these in the late 1980s brought Kathryn Tickell, Karen Tweed, Chris Wood, Andy Cutting, Ian Carr, Simon Care to the fore, all of whom are sharing and passing on their musical expertise to young musicians through workshops such as those organised by Folkworks. If Tunesmith or anyone else stuck in the myth of overall 60s revivalist talent could be arsed to get along to one of these, they'd be left in no doubt that there is tremendous up-and-coming talent and knowledge which far surpasses what we had way back then.

I really fail to see the point in begrudging today's younger musicians their success, their far superior musical knowledge, technique and expertise.   They have had advantages we didn't certainly...it's our responsibility to catch them up, if we can, and admire them anyway.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

We are all better technically than we were 20,30, 40 years ago. This is true in every field - classical, rock, jazz and so on. But, I will restate my claim that folk music - in England, at least, has a far smaller pool of talent to draw on that 40 years ago, and so any meagre talent tends to be elevated beyond its true worth.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:35 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:41 PM

I can only conclude, Tunesmith, that you need to open your mind, raise your horizons and get out more. Don't take this personally. It's not just you. The folkier-than-thou, head-in-the sands, cliquey bigots are driving the young musicians out of 'their' clubs. But it not 'their' music, you know. It's everybody's.   The people will be playing it somewhere else. Your loss.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:23 AM

I am being very objective here! It's down to numbers! Folk music isn't attracting the numbers it used to, and therefore hasn't got the depth of talent it had in the past. Sad but true.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:27 AM

Stop talking about me you old folkies or I shall come round and box your ears.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:12 PM

Dad used to get a lot of stick from older peers about his "pop star" image, the leather jacket\jeans look. Thought he was young and talentless, the usual. They are probably still waiting for him to accept the big bucks and run off laughing to pose for his Madame Tussaud's, the wee scamp...
Young people like other young people. Doesn't mean a thing about the music.
ps-d.o.-shh.
x e.c

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:17 PM

Tee hee. Will the real "GUEST" please stand up...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:27 PM

Sorry this is going far off track.

I saw Jim at IVFDF this weekend - I still say Jim You're good at what you do - It doesn't do it for me.

Liza's dad did back in the 60s but he doesn't now.

I AM STILL ABSOLUTELY AMAZED AT SOME OF THE SMALLMINDED ATTITUDES HERE.

Crack on Jim You're getting the worms out of the holes.....

A

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:10 PM

So Jim Moray is now being sampled into tv trailers during inspector morse. What next Hollywood?, Hope Jim is doing well in Australia.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

heard another track on Mike harding, where can you get the three track cd ?, Also how did jim do in australia ?