Jim Moray....

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

heard another track on Mike harding, where can you get the three track cd ?, Also how did jim do in australia ?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:10 PM

So Jim Moray is now being sampled into tv trailers during inspector morse. What next Hollywood?, Hope Jim is doing well in Australia.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:27 PM

Sorry this is going far off track.

I saw Jim at IVFDF this weekend - I still say Jim You're good at what you do - It doesn't do it for me.

Liza's dad did back in the 60s but he doesn't now.

I AM STILL ABSOLUTELY AMAZED AT SOME OF THE SMALLMINDED ATTITUDES HERE.

Crack on Jim You're getting the worms out of the holes.....

A

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:17 PM

Tee hee. Will the real "GUEST" please stand up...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:12 PM

Dad used to get a lot of stick from older peers about his "pop star" image, the leather jacket\jeans look. Thought he was young and talentless, the usual. They are probably still waiting for him to accept the big bucks and run off laughing to pose for his Madame Tussaud's, the wee scamp...
Young people like other young people. Doesn't mean a thing about the music.
ps-d.o.-shh.
x e.c

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Jim Moray
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:27 AM

Stop talking about me you old folkies or I shall come round and box your ears.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:23 AM

I am being very objective here! It's down to numbers! Folk music isn't attracting the numbers it used to, and therefore hasn't got the depth of talent it had in the past. Sad but true.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:41 PM

I can only conclude, Tunesmith, that you need to open your mind, raise your horizons and get out more. Don't take this personally. It's not just you. The folkier-than-thou, head-in-the sands, cliquey bigots are driving the young musicians out of 'their' clubs. But it not 'their' music, you know. It's everybody's.   The people will be playing it somewhere else. Your loss.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:35 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

We are all better technically than we were 20,30, 40 years ago. This is true in every field - classical, rock, jazz and so on. But, I will restate my claim that folk music - in England, at least, has a far smaller pool of talent to draw on that 40 years ago, and so any meagre talent tends to be elevated beyond its true worth.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

Of those mentioned by Tunesmith, only Martin Carthy and June Tabor are still performing. Nic Jones is unable to and the other two are long dead. There are a handful of others who started then who are still regularly on the road:   Louis Killen, Pete Coe, John Kirkpatrick, and Dick Gaughan are probably the most active. And sadly, two of the greatest, Peter Bellamy and Tony Rose are no longer with us and the Dransfields no longer perform.

Interesting though that you should cite Nic Jones and June Tabor. These are two of Jim Moray's greatest influences. Who else with similar talent has emerged in the past 20 years? You could start by looking at the revivalists' children: Eliza Carthy, Nancy Kerr, Benji Kirkpatrick (and all the rest of Dr Faustus), Rose Kemp. And the many brought up on their parents' vinyl, morris dancing and festival involvement: such as Spiers & Boden, Kate Rusby, Laurel Swift. Jim Moray has said that Sidmouth Festival was his family's annual holiday...

The wave that preceded these in the late 1980s brought Kathryn Tickell, Karen Tweed, Chris Wood, Andy Cutting, Ian Carr, Simon Care to the fore, all of whom are sharing and passing on their musical expertise to young musicians through workshops such as those organised by Folkworks. If Tunesmith or anyone else stuck in the myth of overall 60s revivalist talent could be arsed to get along to one of these, they'd be left in no doubt that there is tremendous up-and-coming talent and knowledge which far surpasses what we had way back then.

I really fail to see the point in begrudging today's younger musicians their success, their far superior musical knowledge, technique and expertise.   They have had advantages we didn't certainly...it's our responsibility to catch them up, if we can, and admire them anyway.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:00 PM

BUT - from what period did the giants of folk emerge? If we're talking about real talent! Who on the English folk scene in the past 20 years, for example, has emerged with the talent of a Carthy, MacColl, Tabor, Denny, Nick Jones etc, etc.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 02:53 PM

It's been mentioned more than once here before but it's clearly worth repeating that Jim Moray won the unaccompanied song competition at Bromyard last year. Had he been performing in the 1960s he would most likely have done so with an acoustic guitar.   As a renaissance performer he'd probably have had a lute or in the early years of last century, a free reed instrument or a banjo. As it is, he is performing in the 21st century and, obviously, uses amplified instruments and programming available now in order to express most aptly what he has to say.

Yes, there were many more folk clubs 30 or 40 years ago and many more people attended. We didn't have that much else to do. Unlike Tunesmith, however, I haven't forgotten how dreadful most of it was. The young performers today far surpass what most of us were capable of then, both technically and academically.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:46 PM

At my local folkclub in the sixties, there were two performers who were so much more talented than Jim Moray. They never got very far on the wider stage for various reasons, but they had it! Back then, the numbers attending folkclubs must be 100 times more than now, and subsequently, the amount of " talent" to draw from was vast compared with today. No, I dismiss all the computer tech thing. If the Jim Moray of today - with just a guitar, got up at my local way back when, he wouldn't have been considered anything special.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:11 AM

"With so little young talent entering the folk field..."

That would be a field on the planet Zog? Folkworks and Shooting Roots are not yet operating there but when they do there'll be hordes of (possibly green) young players, dancers and singers revelling in and restoring to relevance whatever consitutes their traditional inheritence. Just as is occurring here now in festivals and community venues everywhere. Not so much in the clubs though with Victor Meldrew-inspired throwbacks to put them down.

" Back in the 60s..."

Yeah. I cringe to remember a lot of what we got up to then in what went under the name of a 'folk scene'. Those who were good (and are still with us) are still up there doing it. Had Jim Moray been around way back then perhaps the Peter Paul & Mary and Seekers lookalikes would have been despatched sooner, on a tidal wave rather than a ripple.

PS Bob Dylan *can* sing...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:33 AM

It's going to be an on-going "problem". With so little young talent entering the folk field, anybody who arrives with even a modest talent is going to have an inordinate amount of praise heaped up on them. Back in the 60s, Jim Moray wouldn't have caused any ripples at all.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:46 PM

Well I finally heard him on BBC4 this week.

I don't think I'm a musical bigot in any sense affecting this debate (yes, I have some dislikes, country included, but that is not relevant to Moray) and I listen to a range from unaccompanied trad English folk to fairly heavy metal, albeit not much modern "urban" (metal is urban too, and so is punk, but they never seem to be labelled that way).

It all seems a bit much to get too worked up about it. Fairly interesting (but not shatteringly interesting) arrangements. I don't really think a visual element in the presentation of music can be thought of as groundbreaking - I went to several "multimedia happenings" in the 60s.

But it isn't all that wonderful, and I agree with those who say he is an unimpressive singer - not "bad" but his voice is not good and not interesting. In summary I am underwhelmed. I damn him with faint praise.

There again that does not mean he will be uninfluential. Dylan may well have been a considerable commentator and songwriter (and minor poet) but he must have been one of the worst singers ever. He made his own songs almost unlistenable, until someone else sang them.

And Johnny Cash, as a singer (as distinct from song stylist) was worse. No pitch, no tone, no range. Little scansion.

If Moray fails as badly as both of them he will do alright, but I will still be fairly unimpressed.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: *Laura*
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:04 AM

this is very interesting. i'm actually fascinated by how some people are so fiercely defensive of him, while others umm.... aren't! wow - i won't comment other than to say i was beginning to worry that i was the only one of my opinion! (whatever that may be) now i am reassured.
Thanks guys!

x

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:19 AM

Terry - that Frank Spencer thing is a right bummer!

There was an episode where Frank sings "Early one morning just as the sun was rising" - and Jim's rendition is SSSSOOOO similar that it cracks me up every time, even though it makes me hate myself....

Other than that, I think Jim is wonderful!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:48 AM

"I'm one of you … you could be me!" And that, more than any other factor, is what attracts a mass youth audience. The music has always been secondary.

Wise words as usual from Mike of Northumbria.

The mystery of Jim's sudden rise to popularity despite debatable musical qualities (I'm not expressing an opinion, just observing that there is disagreement generally) has been partly solved for me by recently finding out how he went about promoting his first recording. The methods of the pop music industry are expensive, but they produce results. They are also appropriate for the target audience that he clearly wishes to attract.

The current fRoots article says he's feeling somewhat overwhelmed by it all. I'm not surprised. I don't think I'd want to launch a performing career for myself with such force even if I could afford it. I've just had a recording session, a local radio interview and two gigs all in the space of three days and that was quite enough excitement for me - I need a weekend off!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Beardy
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:46 AM

JM can be seen in the Celtic Connections programme on BBC4 this weekend.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 AM

I love the Jim Moray CD, but........when the accordian player in our band said Moray's singing voice reminded him of Frank Spencer, I can see what he means.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

On accepting his best newcomer prize at the BBC Folk Awards ceremony, Jim Moray said:

"I'd like to thank all the people who know absolutely nothing about folk music who've bought my record."

And that just about sums up both the positive and the negative aspects of the situation.

On the positive side, thousands of young record buyers who rarely listened to folk music before are now being exposed to traditional tunes and lyrics. With luck, some of them may eventually move on towards wider musical horizons.   

On the negative side, people who know a little more about folk music will have heard JM's most distinctive techniques used before (and better) by others. (For example, on Martyn Bennett's "Bothy Culture" or Altar Native's "Cumbrian Odyssey".)    It's understandable if some of them believe that JMs fame is greater than his talents merit. But it's also unfair and short-sighted.

Unfair, because JM has clearly got talent - even if it isn't quite as massive a talent as some of his cheer-leaders would have us believe. And short-sighted, because anything that introduces folk music to a larger audience is a good thing.

Having seen JM, as well as heard him, I can now understand his appeal better. He has exactly the right look, the right style, and the right attitude to attract a young following.   The way he dresses, the way he carries himself, the way he addresses his public - they all proclaim "I'm one of you … you could be me!" And that, more than any other factor, is what attracts a mass youth audience. The music has always been secondary.

Think back a few decades. What did the grown-ups say about Buddy Holly, Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger, and many others? "Unwashed snotty-nosed kids, who mumble illiterate lyrics to banal tunes and can't even play their instruments properly." And up to a point, that was true – but it didn't matter to us because they were young, we were young, and the times they were a-changin', or so we thought.   

Today, when listening to digitally remastered classics of the '50s and '60s, I can hear the technical deficiencies I missed the first time around. But the best of those recordings still convey the energy and the commitment that captivated me then. I wish I could stay around long enough to find out which of today's hit recordings JM's generation will be re-purchasing in updated formats when they've grown grey and affluent. But in the here and now, I think the best advice for members of my generation is, as the man once said to our parents,

"Don't criticise what you can't understand,
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command."

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:03 AM

I see that Sweet England has made it into the Indie top 40
and amazon top 100 well done jim, What now the Video??

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Eccosse
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:04 PM

I recently saw Jim at Celtic Connections were he was support for Karine Polwart. I had never heard of him until this point and now I can't get away from him in the press - they love him!

Personnally, I simply cannot see what the hype is about. I thought he lacked the charisma needed to be "front man" performer, his voice was rather weak. The person sitting next to me actually fell asleep it was so monotonous.

Although I can appreciate what he is trying to do, his recent success at the Folk awards in my opinion was unjustified. Perhaps in a few years once his voice has matured may I feel different.
m-c

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:45 AM

Congrats Jim on two awards, Best Album and the Horizon award
look forward to the next CD

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Spittal B
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 08:54 AM

Saw Jim do an acoustic set recently, Early one morning with jim on acoustic guitar backed by two fiddlers was excellent. His voice like many singers just takes some time to get accustmed too.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 04:17 PM

Never had any interest in hearing or seeing Jim Moray - until this thread!

I'll def. check him out now - might also help with the MIDI programming course I am doing next year!

All the best
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,spittal B
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 03:11 PM

Looking at JM's bookings for the next twelve months I'm glad to see that there are more excellent bands who want hm to appear with him than there are knockers on this site. When the folk performers like the Oyster band are asking for him to support them I feel they may no more than the armchair moaners, Keep at it Jim

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Dan Abnormal
Date: 18 Dec 03 - 06:32 AM

I really am puzzled by this thread. The basic points seem to boil down to:-
1."Jim doesn't have a very good voice" (well, neither did Bert Lloyd...),
2."The publicity material talks about him in good terms" (but wouldn't it be daft to have a press release that said "Jim Moray is distinctly average...". And for that matter, I'm sure Jim himself never wrote that.)
3. "The media writes about him, and not Tom/Dick/Geoff" (Yet, for years the folk world has bemoaned the lack of press coverage for traditional music, and when some comes along its somehow evil..)

Like the Countess, I think I can see now that its not traditional music that people are interested in preserving, but 'folk music' as a static genre. I thought it was all about making sure the ancient music of England was still sung and didn't disappear. Obviously I was wrong. So, lets sort this out once and for all - what Jim does is not really folk music as such is it? Its rock music using traditional songs. Because if folk music means conforming to such a narrow definition then I'm not even sure I want to consider myself a folk fan anymore.

Oh, and the comments about "422. Ola, the Pack et al" nearer the top of the thread made me chuckle... If only you knew...

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 02:41 PM

hear hear (or is it here here) Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: treewind
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 09:26 AM

The publicity machine...

Jim obviously has a natural talent for publicity. By training, instinct, paying for it or sheer hard work, he knows how to get himself promoted.

I think that's why some people here are suspicious or jealous. But just because some airheaded teeenage slut can be turned into a pop star by the "Music Industry", doesn't mean that anyone who has a good publicity operation has no talent, nor otherwise.

The trouble with fame and publicity is that it's a two edged sword - everything you do, good or bad, gets talked about and exaggerated.

In the other JM thread, I objected to the hype, not because he's bad (he isn't) but because there are lots of other performers around who are great singers and musicians and are almost unheard of. Perhaps one lesson to be learnt is that a bit of careful self promotion doesn't do any harm - unfortunately it's something that a lot of "purist" folkies don't believe in very much. As someone who has recently made the transition from a "floor spot + resident band" supporter of his local folk club to part of a duo that does paid gigs, I've had to learn that process step by step, and it's hard work (and still learning, all the time).

I think it's great that he's aroused the interest of some "folk-hating" teenagers. Let's hope that new interest gets them listening to other folk material with a new understanding. Every little helps...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: fiddler
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:40 AM

Time for a tirade.

Why is everyone so opinionated and bigoted!

Sorry - a few have been honest and said don't like it and left it there.

He's (JIM) filling Gigs, concert halls and selling CDs - is it the old adage folkies don't like success stories

Or he thought of it B4 you did

Or there are a few inferiority complexes out there I don't know.

Or plain deadly sin - green eyes and envy!!!

I like folkies (myself included) 'cos we are tolerant and easy going not usually bigoted and opinionated but this thread throws all that to the wind! - Bit like the Young folk awards one!

Fortunately there is a lot of good stuff on here too!

AND He's got you all ranting and raving for well mover a week or two recently - I bet that sold a few tickets etc. so that osme could see what all the fuss is about so we are all part of the publicity machine!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:27 AM

And the publicity machine grinds on...and on..and on..

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:25 AM

Not just mine, by any means. But what more can there be to say till his next venture. It really won't be long......

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:20 AM

But that's only your opinion - - so no!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:17 AM

...who actually CAN sing well, as Anahata said. And who can produce musical arrangements that work.

So that's full circle. Now can we draw the line?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 03 - 07:11 AM

So Nerd with a MIDI it is then!

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:38 AM

The number of musicians mixing traditional folk recordings with other dance rhythms and various computer stuff can now be numbered in the thousands rather than hundreds; perhaps we should be a little cautious about the way words like "innovative" are sprayed around.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,COMMENTATOR
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:30 AM

Thanks to "eric the red",
                         I`m somewhat dismayed to learn I`m not the only one who has been dismissed by M.H. but at least I feel in good company. As you have read my, criticism of him was that he described the J.Moray CD as "fantastic". One would have thought he would have had the balls to reply and defend his choice of adjective. If this is truly how he feels then one can only assume his emotions for certain other singers and musicians with whom we are blessed must be beyond desciption.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 07:14 AM

Apart from a 21st. Century Stylophone how exactly is Jim Moray re-interpreting English folk music?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 15 Dec 03 - 04:12 AM

Tartan Babe check out Jim's own view on the question of innovation, above in this thread or in the current issue of Uncut.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:50 PM

Martyn Bennett's work might best be described as a fusion of Scottish traditional music with the contemporary club scene while Jim Moray is reinterpreting English traditional music. A contrast is perfectly feasible but a comparison nonsensical.

Whapweasel or perhaps Chumbawamba might bear comparison with Martyn Bennett as Alasdair Roberts might with Jim Moray.

I too feel Martyn Bennett deserved a Folk Awards nomination, if only for his "innovatory" overlaying of Jeannie Robertson onto a dance track.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: tartan babe
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:15 PM

Is what Jim doing innovative?

Just because people in the folk world generally dislike electrickery, doesn't mean to say that what he does is new. Hearing that he was nominated 4 times for radio 2, made me quite annoyed. Are there really so few musicians out there that were worthy of being nominated.

What Jim does is good, but in the grand scheme of music things, it's not new and it's not innovative. I'd rather hear what Martin Bennett does. He doesn't try to to be innovative, he just fuses different styles.

Having said this, does Jim really think he's being innovative. I doubt it. Jim probably had to put innovative in his program notes just to try and get old bearded folkies to take notice of the demon electronics.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Beardy
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 04:21 PM

I refer to the question posed in the original post...in my opinion....a nerd with a MIDI who cant really sing that well.

I saw Jim 4 times at various festivals during the year and cannot understand the fuss being made. I have seen the 'uture of folk music' many times during years of listening to folk and attending festivals. Martyn Bennett was proclaimed when he released ' Bothy Ballads' and Dr Didg has been using samples and loops for years.

However whilst I dont like Jim Moray myself I see no reason why others cannot appreciate his interpretations and vocal style nad a festival programme that appeals equally to everyone would be unique in my opinion.

Variety is what we crave; we can then judge for ourselves.

Stewart

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Colin.O
Date: 14 Dec 03 - 05:42 AM

Wow - that someone who has only been on the circuit for about a year (
Being new on the circuit he has still a lot to learn - but imagine where he'll be then?

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 08:04 PM

I like Jim Moray very much. I first saw him with the Oysterband some months ago and thought "Wow!!!!!!" I've seen him a couple of times since then. He's different. He's refreshing. Some of the remarks in this thread have been really personal and nasty.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 04:00 PM

Yep. Lidy's right. Give the guy a break, one that he really deserves after nearly two months on the road when the gigs I saw were a great success musically and technically and received with acclaim. Why on earth should some of you continue to begrudge Jim Moray his success?

As Lidy says, he won't be sitting still for long. No one's going to laugh at you for being a bit late in checking out his new ventures. He's far from fully formed yet.    You still don't want to listen? Your loss.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: GUEST,Lidy
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 03:00 PM

I have issues with Mr Moray as a person but I will still stand up in his defence as a musician: I put on his records and I am amazed. It's just nice to have something a bit different in the record collection. Forget the hype, he's only human, and Black Walnut's right. Maybe we should just create a new genre for him and then we won't all have to get so het up about what he's doing in folk. As for whether he's a poseur or not, those who have been following him for a while (his career, not like round his house going through his bins) will probably agree that he's come a long way in confidence and technical skill in a relatively short period of time. If it's not your cup of tea, I have to agree with the Countess, it's hardly as if you're being forced to listen to it. Give a young man a chance! And my advice is to keep checking out his new stuff even if the previous recordings didn't stir something in you- I can't imagine he'll be sitting still in terms of interpretation for long.

Subject: RE: Jim Moray....
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Dec 03 - 10:19 AM

GUEST COMMENTATOR, you will never get a reply from Mike Harding if you criticise him, only if you complement him.
I sent him quite a few emails and only got a reply from his producer Jon Leonard, however he did write an article for the Living Tradition magazine and slagged me off publicly.
eric