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BS: Napoleon was a Scot

DigiTrad:
BONAPARTE
BONAPARTE'S RETREAT
BONAPARTE'S RETREAT
DONE WITH BONAPARTE
NAPOLEON BONAPARTE
THE DREAM OF NAPOLEON
THE GRAND CONVERSATION OF NAPOLEON


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freda underhill 18 Feb 04 - 07:18 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Feb 04 - 08:22 AM
The Shambles 18 Feb 04 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Teribus 18 Feb 04 - 08:46 AM
Shanghaiceltic 18 Feb 04 - 08:57 AM
freda underhill 18 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM
Cobble 18 Feb 04 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Boab 19 Feb 04 - 02:50 AM
GUEST,noddy 19 Feb 04 - 03:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 08:01 AM
freda underhill 19 Feb 04 - 08:09 AM
Strupag 19 Feb 04 - 11:11 AM
Allan C. 19 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Feb 04 - 02:15 PM
Murray MacLeod 19 Feb 04 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Arbuthnot 19 Feb 04 - 04:45 PM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 04:55 PM
Herga Kitty 19 Feb 04 - 04:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 10:03 PM
John MacKenzie 20 Feb 04 - 12:13 PM
John MacKenzie 20 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM
Metchosin 20 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Boab 21 Feb 04 - 02:04 AM
The Shambles 21 Feb 04 - 04:58 AM
Gurney 21 Feb 04 - 05:21 AM
John MacKenzie 21 Feb 04 - 08:46 AM
GUEST 25 Feb 04 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Caledonian Brit 25 Feb 04 - 09:06 AM
Gurney 26 Feb 04 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,freda 27 Feb 04 - 01:23 AM
GUEST,murphy 27 Feb 04 - 01:24 AM
akenaton 28 Feb 10 - 04:47 AM
Paul Burke 28 Feb 10 - 06:38 AM
Beer 28 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM
Dave MacKenzie 28 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM
Paul Burke 28 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM
gnu 28 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Just Allan 28 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Just Allan 28 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM
Dave MacKenzie 28 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM
freda underhill 01 Mar 10 - 05:02 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 18 Apr 10 - 01:37 PM
bubblyrat 18 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM
mousethief 18 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM
Bert 18 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM
maple_leaf_boy 19 Apr 10 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Allan 20 Apr 10 - 09:57 AM
Donuel 20 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

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Subject: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 07:18 AM

i've just read the St George was a Turk thread, ...that's nothing -
some say Napoleon was a Scot!

freda

after reading the thread about St George being and African Turk, I thought the following may be of interest....

Napoleon was one of us, says Scottish archive: By Richard Savill

THE family of Napoleon Bonaparte may have come from a tiny Scottish community, according to new research. Evidence that [Napoleon's] grandfather came from Balloch, near Crieff, Perthshire, has been uncovered by a local historian, Robert Torrens.

Mr Torrens has now embarked on a detailed investigation to try to prove a link between the French emperor and an 18th century labourer, William Bayne. He believes that Napoleon's grandfather may have been a soldier. Mr Torrens stumbled across the link in a dusty book called Crieff: Its Traditions and Characters.

He said: "The book dates from 1881 and carries a story claiming that Napoleon was really a third generation Scot. The archive "was highly thought of at the time and the story was vouched for by some respected figures."

Mr Torrens said that, according to the book, a labourer named Bayne and his family decided to leave Balloch shortly after the collapse of the 1745 Jacobite uprising.

It says: "Having had a strong leaning to the Duke of Perth and Prince Charlie after '45, Bayne resolved to seek a home in another land. With this intent he and his family and others set sail. A storm came on and they were driven on to Corsica, where they were hospitably received. They were known as Bayne or Buon and his party. In course of time his sons were called Buon-de-party.

"His grandson was named Buon-de-parte or Buonaparte and now figures in the history of the world as the great Napoleon." Mr Torrens said that no descendants of the Baynes were left in Balloch, so the archive's claims were difficult to verify.

Perthshire Tourist Board said it was keen to adopt Napoleon as part of the area's historical attraction if the claim could be substantiated. ." The Weekly Telegraph, No. 396, February 24 - March 2, 1999; Napoleon 'had Scots ancestor' - by Richard Savill

…Follow-up to the Bonaparte news item - The Weekly Telegraph, March 3-9, 1999: Letters to the Editor:

- Nelson's clan connection
Sir - As a historian of the Clan Glenell, I was very interested in the suggestion that Napoleon was a third-generation Scot (Issue 396). The name Bain is connected with the Glenells, and it could be that Napoleon was connected to the clan. But if that were the case it would be ironic, since Nelson is also a name associated with the clan. Admiral Horatio Nelson was extremely proud of his Scottish ancestry, which dated back to the 13th century.

It might also be pointed out that during the Hundred Years' War many Scots mercenaries married into the French aristocracy, and there is a good possibility that the name de Gaulle originated from the Scots Dougal.
M. W. BRANDER
Haddington, East Lothian


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:22 AM

Scots and French, no problem surely - "the Auld Alliance".

(Now if the suggestion had been that Napoleon or De Gaulle were really English that might have been a different matter...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:27 AM

A load of old Ballochs.............?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:46 AM

According to Billy Connelly this could be about Napoleon - not Bonaparte - Napoleon Bon-Accord Smith - a nutcase from Aberdeen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 08:57 AM

Hah, I have found a hidden link in some old Beijing archives which states that Ghenghis was actually part of the McKanh clan!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

does that make him McKhanh of Hah Lo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Cobble
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 06:56 PM

O GRIEF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:50 AM

Should have been posted on April 1st----


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:51 AM

Just goes to show ,there are only two kinds of people in the world, Scots.............................




And those that want to be Scots


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:01 AM

And those who'd like to be Napoleon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:09 AM

there are two types of people in the world .. those who think there are two types of people,

and everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Strupag
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:11 AM

McGrath What dae ya mean "those who'd like to be Napoleon"
Don't ye know that I am Napoleon!

Andy Bonnie parts


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Allan C.
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM

I'm still attempting to retrace the route by which Napoleon crossed the Rockies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:15 PM

Is he related to Boney Mary o' Argyll??
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:39 PM

It may not be generally known that Pontius Pilate was also Scottish. His father was a Roman ambassador and his mother a Perthshire woman. He was born in the village of Fortingall in northern Perthshire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Arbuthnot
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:45 PM

Robert the Bruce came from Essex, so what is so incredible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:55 PM

Allan C: You dolt, it was the Andes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:56 PM

I was reading only yesterday in the Independent about an Englishman raised in South London, but who went to St Andrews University and got a PhD in Classics, and was so obsessed by Scotland that he invented a childhood in the Hebrides, accent etc. His deception was so convincing that he was appointed Director of the Saltire Society


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:03 PM

Not that there's anything particularly improbable about the notion one of Napoleon's grandfathers might have been from Scotland.

After all there was a lot of interest in Corsica, on the part of some Scots at the time - as demonstrated by the fact that James Boswell was known as Corsica Boswell, because of his enthusiasm for Corsican independence from France.

(However it's worth noting that Napoleon's family were very much pro-French and active in opposing Corsican independence.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 12:13 PM

Here's to a Nappy ending!
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

Just remembered a bit of Scottish history regarding said Boney sans M.

Napoleon was an Emperor,he ruled o'er land and sea.
He was King of France and Germany, but he never ruled Polmadie.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 12:33 PM

Wasn't there a great bruhaha when someone suggested that the great MacCrimmons, hereditary pipers to the MacLeods of Dunvegan were actually originally Italians from Cremona? Have bagpipes, will travel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 02:04 AM

GIOK--a good one---chortle!
Murray --that would be the bonnie wee village wi' the theekit roofs? It is a braw wee place. On the road from Killin tae Aberfeldy I believe? If I remember aright,it's not far from there to Keltneyburn Smiddy....


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:58 AM

Many people do not know that when Napoleon in that typical pose - put his hand inside his greatcoat - he was holding on to a bottle of Iron-Bru.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:21 AM

The Corsicans, I believe, have a fair measure of Spartan in them. It isn't any wonder he was a fair soldier, with that background.

However, the Scots were from Ireland, and it was an Irish-led alliance that finally sorted him out.
How far do you want to go back? Oldavi Gorge?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:46 AM

Thermopoli rules OK!

When you go there the English translation on the place name sign is, Thermo Piles. Back to Ring of Fire methinks.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:16 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Caledonian Brit
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:06 AM

The Scots were from Ireland? Nae wonder your name is Gurney - ye must hae landed on one often enough with that point of view. Maybe we just grew here like the Irish did in Ireland Or is that too radical a point of view? Numpty!


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:09 AM

Caledonian Brit.
The Scots were an Irish tribe who were kicked out of there for rough play. They went to the land of the Picts and eventually took it over.

That is history as I have read it. If you have a different history, tell me where it is documented and I'll read that one too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:23 AM

here is more info about the Scots being an Irish tribe....

The Romans left Britain never having conquered Scotland. When the Romans first arrived, there were nearly 20 Tribes, within 250 years there were FOUR main people.

The Picts ruled the north, east and most of central Scotland. Originally a coastal people, like so many of the early tribes, these early Celtic people left no written language, no records of their descendancy, which was through the female line. They were, in time, after mixing with other cultures, assimilated in with the new settlers and cultures. But in their height of power , the north and south Pictish culture was a rich and powerful one. Their Federated Kingdom, stretched from the Pictland hills to the Pentland Firth.

They left ornate symbol stones and advanced practices of art and culture as well as a formidable military.

The second of the four main groups left after the Romans, were the Britons or the Britons of Strathclyde. They would dominate the west of lower Scotland and some of England. Their lands stretched through Strathclyde south through Cumbria to Wales. This is most likely the Celtic people that helped settle Wales, or at the very least were strongly associated with the Welsh both in culture and language.

The third group, the Angles, from Germany settled southeast Scotland and portions of England. Warlike and hungry for land they drove out the Britons living near them, and carved out their kingdom.

Lastly, the fourth Tribe came to settle Scotland. They were also known as a warlike people, descended from Ireland. The origins of their name -- Scots is believed to be a corrupted form of Scottus or Scotti , which meant "raiders". A Celtic, warrior, combative and expansive race, the Scots came in about 500 A.D. Dalriada was the Kingdom of the Scots and stretched from east Ireland through the Western Isles to Argyll, in western Scotland.

Much of Scotland became Christian long before England. Due initially to a monk named Ninian or Saint Ninian. He was born around 350 A.D., a Briton, he went to the continent where he was ordained a priest, came back to Scotland and evangelized Galloway and the Southern Picts at Fife and Perthshire. Ninian's followers may have taken the new faith as far north as the Shetland Islands.
The Scots of Dalriada had Irish missionaries of their own. St. Oran probably established the first monastery at Iona. But St. Columba from Donegal, was the missionary who made the Scots a dominate Tribe. Legend has it that Columba came to Iona because of a copy he made of a psalter (holy book) without the owner's permission, and the man he borrowed it from took the law against Columba and won the case. So Columba, taking a vow, left for Scotland in exile. That is the legend, but most likely, it was simply Irish

Saint Columba arrived in Scotland, from Ireland, in about 563 A.D. with twelve followers. He was a skilled politician and helped the Scots, who owed allegiance to an Irish King, become independent from mainland Ireland, (Columba had Royal blood on both sides and this no doubt helped), by using his New Faith and Royal connections he helped the Scots to establish Argyll in western Scotland as an independent Kingdom.
The Irish Celtic Church was Monastic, unlike the great religious houses that were to come to Scotland in the middle ages. Strict, it demanded poverty and obediance from its clergy who were Monks, not Priests.

More at: http://members.aol.com/Skyewrites/origins2.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,murphy
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:24 AM

..so, its obvious, Napoleon was Irish!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 04:47 AM

Did anyone ever tell you that you have a very sarcastic side to you Mr McGrath?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 06:38 AM

Did Boney think he was being sent to Alba when they deposed him? Proof that he didn't know his Erse from his Elba?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Beer
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 11:59 AM

Yep I believe it. And the Pope is Protestant as well.
Beer (adrien)


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 12:08 PM

According to the Orthodox, the Roman Pope is a protestant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

I think you'll find that ever so slightly not true. To the Orthodox, the Pope is just an over- pushy bishop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: gnu
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:13 PM

I thought he was quite the card.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Just Allan
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM

"Allan C"

I've been posting on here for a couple of months as Allan C but I see someone else is now posting in this thread using that name! Anyway that idea that scots came from Ireland is plainly simplistic. The Scotti were one of the peoples in fist millenium Scotland who lived basically in and around Argyle, and traditionally it was said that they came from Ireland. However the vast majority of people in Scotland were of British stock. That is the Picts north of the Antonine Wall and the British tribes south of the said wall. There was also an influx of Angles in the south and Norse especially in the far north and north-west. It was events which caused the name of the country to name itself after the Scotti rather than turning into Pictland or something else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Just Allan
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM

One Bonaparte who did have an interest in aspects of Scotland was Prince Louis Lucien Bonaparte who I think was a nephew of Boney. He made seven commissions for translating parts of the Bible into the Scots language. It was thought that he was generally interested in preserving what he regarded as dying languages rather than being particularly interested in just Scotland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Feb 10 - 03:28 PM

Anybody who doesn't accept the decisions of the Church's ecumenical councils is a protestant in Orthodox eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Mar 10 - 05:02 AM

There has been understandable scepticism when it was suggested that Napoleon Bonaparte was the grandson of a Scot from Balloch. But I'd like to point out that there is further proof that Napoleon was indeed Scottish. As can be evidenced in various portraits, his hand was always under his lapel (to make sure no-one lifted his wallet).


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 01:37 PM

The screenwriters for the 1970 (approx.) film of "Waterloo" (directed by Dino di Laurentiis) seem also to have heard of Napoleon's Scots ancestry, and researched some local idioms. When one of his aides, General de la Bedoyere, states he wished that his son could see Napoleon, the imperial wee Roddy Steiger frae Tounheid replies, "See me?". Err ye go!


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: bubblyrat
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM

Beam me up,Scotti.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM

The Pope was the first Protestant. We don't think he's a bishop.

Mousethief, closet Orthodox


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Bert
Date: 18 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM

Napoleon was a madman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:55 PM

I've heard someone claim that the Gaels of Scotland oppressed the Picts,
and that is why there is very little information about them.
I highly doubt this is true, but can anyone verify that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 09:57 AM

"I've heard someone claim that the Gaels of Scotland oppressed the Picts,
and that is why there is very little information about them."

Scotland north of the Forth in the middle of the first millenium was peopled by the Picts and the Gaelic Scotti of Dalriada. The Picts would have been far more numerous and the Pictish area was far bigger as Scottish Dalriada was basically just Argyll and some of the Hebrides. Slightly later due to conflict Dalriada was totally occupied by the Picts and several of the Pictish Kings were also described as Kings of Dalriada. Both entities then came under pressure from Norse invaders as the islands (both Hebrides and Northern Isles) were completely lost and it is also thought that perhaps many of the Pictish nobility perished in conflicts with the Norse. There seems to have been a coming together of the Scotti and the Pictish nobility and it is thought many of the latter were possibly already at least partly Gaelicised through the influence of the Celtic Church. Eventually Kenneth Macalpin (either of Scotti or at least part Scotti descent) took the throne (either by succeeding to it or by violence)though contemporary sources still describe him and his immediate succesors as Kings of Pictland rather than Kings of Alba (ie Scotland). When we enter the real more written historic period of the second millenium the Pictish language has either disappeared or at least was disappearing. There is no evidence that the Pictish people themsleves were killed, removed or anything else. Rather the new Kingdom of Alba (later Scotland) simply took on a Gaelic identity.

Later Scottish propaganda also played down the Pictish (ie British) factor. For instance the Declaration of Arbroath insists that the Picts were driven out. This was probably because the English monarchy was presenting itslef as the new Bretwaldas (ie High Kings of Britain) and successors to the idea of Arthur etc - so the Scots were saying 'well that doesn't include us'.

Of course most Scots in the former Pictish areas were descendents of the Pictish peoples who themselves were simply the descendents of those tribes of Britons who remained outwith Roman Britannia. The Pictish language may have disappeared but the Pictish symbols (eg St Andrews as patron saint and the Saltire) did not and also of course the centre of Scottish power (at least until it exapnded south)was very much centred on the area of the southern Picts.

The Britons of southern Scotland have been wiped from history far more thoroughly than the Picts were though!


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Subject: RE: BS: Napoleon was a Scot
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:15 PM

Scot or not he was a snot.


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