Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity

Subject: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:21 PM

I THINK the most dangerous belief system prevalent today, as in millennia past, is a belief in any anthropomorphic personal God and its related Faith. I am astounded that about 90% of the general public answering recent polls believe in God and many believe in afterlife. Fortunately, MOST scientists do not. It is paradoxical how those scientists that are religious reconcile their Faith with their science. There are, and have been many, such renowned scientists. I discussed this in the 'Can An Atheist Sing Believer Songs?' thread. An explanation for a religious scientist could be that our brains may be hardwired for belief systems to enhance survival. Some of my favorite college professors were (are) religious scientists.

I have written on this general subject elsewhere on Mudcat. As an atheist, I have mostly accepted that any person has a right to any belief. However, after having voted for Mr. Bush and seeing the destruction his Christian belief has caused, I am not willing to be as accepting of a belief in a personal God that people listen to and gain direction from. That "direction" is often destructive to humankind.

With respect to all the fine religious people here (and including many of my relatives), I can not understand how a thinking, rational person can believe that an anthropomorphic God speaks to them. That is counterintuitive to all commonsense, horse sense, knowledge, and scientific inquiry.

When peoples base their actions on mythology, fairytales, and nonsense, human suffering and environmental destructions occur, as exemplified in Iraq and other problem areas worldwide.

Imagine the form an anthropomorphic ("he" created us in his image) God that "hears" all prayers in all languages, in all areas; One massive entity "he" must be. God and the angels were once in heaven somewhere up in the clouds. Hubble is looking back 14 billion years and where is any evidence of an anthropomorphic or any other form or kind of God?

Where the Hell is Heaven and God? Did God create our Solar System and its Milky Way galaxy with its trillion or so stars AND the 100 billion galaxies, some with thousands of billions of stars, in the observable universe? If God is in the unobservable universe, how can he have a hand in our lives over vast distances of enormous light years away? Voices can not travel that far that fast in any conversation with a personal God, even in the observable universe. How can an anthropomorphic God that created all this wonder of billions of galaxies now be relegated to listening to mundane prayers involving our daily life struggles?

Women should understand and be especially appalled by the tyranny that has resulted from a belief in a "he" God through the ages. Why is God masculine? I think it is because men were (are) the leaders in the Churches of the world and perpetuated the "he" myth of God. This gave men the power and license to oppress women and keep them subservient as they were until the early 20th Century, at least in the U.S. Women in many parts of the world, Muslims especially, are still subject to this religious oppression.

All humanity will continue to suffer as long as people perpetuate the irrational beliefs in the many Gods of the many religions of the many Faiths. Rational, logical, critical thinking is the only way to avoid and resolve worldwide problems. "Listening" to an imaginary God and acting out on those "voices" in one's mind is often the most dangerous of all of mankind's endeavors. The many good deeds that have been performed by fine, well-meaning religious peoples worldwide have been far out shadowed by the atrocities perpetuated by the belief in any God and any associated religions and Faiths.

Cruiser (a former baptized Southern Baptist Christian)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:25 PM

"As an Athiest, I have mostly accepted that any person has a right to any belief."

I, for one, think that is mighty generous of you Cruiser.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:35 PM

I think you are well shut of a belief system that did you little good, Cruiser, but you might be well advised to be lesas challenging. Because there is no way to decode the semantics that others are using when they say they have 'found' something and are calling it God. And it may in fact be something extraordinary, deep, seemingly inifnite in scope and in compassion, and to rant about their using one or another label in trrying to communicate about it is only upsetting andnon-productive. You may arrive t a point some day where you find yourself swept up in an experience so overwhelming that you wished desperately you had some words to describe it with, also.

Mind you, I have little disagreement with your rant, generally--I just think it is ill-advised! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:47 PM

rant:

"To speak or write in an angry or violent manner; rave"

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM

Anthropomorphism is a really long word. So is floccinoccinihilipilification, and it is with that that I treat this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

Thanks brucie. I learned a new word, although I probably won't use it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:09 PM

You're welcome. There's an alternate spelling: floccinaucinihilipilification.

I never use it, and may The Universal Spirit That Unifies All Things bless you for providing me with an opportunity that comes but once a decade.

Funny, it was the reverse for me. I used to feel exactly like that about a supreme being, and now I have changed my mind. Not a case of right or wrong; just a case of is.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Allan C.
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:28 PM

Y'all go ahead and sort this out among yourselves and be sure to let me know when you have THE ANSWER.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Cruiser
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:38 PM

THE ANSWER will likely be illusive for millennia, if there ever is an answer understandable in human terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

Belief observes a different reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM

The answer, as always, is Yes.

Where we're stuck is in identifying the correct question.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: mack/misophist
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 08:27 PM

I read about an interesting study recently. It seems that in countries where the social services are good and the economy fairly stable, church attendence is low. The better the conditions, the lower the attendence. Angst.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:34 PM

" I can not understand how a thinking, rational person can believe that an anthropomorphic God speaks to them."

       well, I can.

I may not agree with them, but if you don't see why it is easy to believe, you haven't paid much attention to History or Sociology or Psychology.....most of the people who profess belief are honest and reasonable people as far as they understand reason. It is a lot of work and emotionally stressful for most people to deal with not believing, and when the stories of religion are so well-constructed and full of compelling imagery, why wouldn't a person, especially one who is raised in a tradition, feel comforted by it?

I think a FAR more important question is whether religion is useful and important. I tend to feel it is....
[84 pages of single-spaced rambling mercifully omitted here...)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM

If Carol and I can agree to disagree, to live and let live, then so can we.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Joe_F
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM

I am an atheist too. I believe that No-one is reponsible for this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 10:01 PM

Cruiser, I think you would agree that the problem is people
trying to apply their beliefs in everyday life. I have a
great deal of respect for "believers", as long as they don't
try to force it on others under pain of death.

However, your scientific objections are not applicable.
How can God overcome the (excruciatingly slow) speed of light?
How can God hear our prayers, or direct our lives?
They have only to say "God is omnipotent" -- or "Allah hu akbar",
and the questions are answered to their satisfaction. God, by
DEFINITION, can do anything, including over-ride the laws of
nature and science.

Fear of God has done a lot to keep people in line -- that's the
part I respect. Evidently it's not enough to say No Stealing.
It has to be "God says, Thou shalt not steal, or else!"

However, millions have been slaughtered In the Name of God.
What we atheists need to do is just get them to STOP THE KILLING.

Back to science for a moment. I believe the "Big Bang Theory" is
a pathetic attempt of scientists to redeem themselves with the
religious mainstream. It just happens to correspond (loosely)
with Genesis. It's valid AS a theory, but there is just as much
empirical evidence against it as for it.

My own cosmological belief is that the universe is infinite in
space and time. One inescapable conclusion this leads to is
that everything that can possibly happen, has already happened
an infinite number of times.

I'm just hoping that this time, we can survive.

Love, Johnny in OKC

Subject: Lyr Add: GOD IS IN THE HOUSE (Nick Cave)
From: Damon
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 10:28 PM

Homos roaming the streets in packs
Queer bashers with tyre - jacks
Lesbian counter - attacks
That stuff is for the big cities
Our town is very pretty
We have a pretty little square
We have a woman for a mayor
Our policy is firm but fair
Now that God is in the house
God is in the house
God is in the house
Any day now He'll come out
God is in the house

Well - meaning little therapists
Goose - stepping twelve - stepping Tetotalitarianists
The tipsy, the reeling and the drop down pissed
We got no time for that stuff here
Zero crime and no fear
We've bred all our kittens white
So you can see them in the night
And at night we're on our knees
As quiet as a mouse
Since the word got out
From the North down to the South
For no - one's left in doubt
There's no fear about
If we all hold hands and very quietly shout
Hallelujah
God is in the house
God is in the house
Oh I wish He would come out
God is in the house

A Nick Cave perspective on the matter

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:25 AM

A couple of weeks ago (March 8), Anna Quindlen had an article called "At the Left Hand of God" on the back page of Newsweek. Maybe Jeff or some nice clone will add a link - I can't with WEBTV. Here ya go, Joe!

Anyhow, Quindlen objected to the defining of religion as if it were all right-wing fundamentalism. Our religious beliefs led many of us to work for peace and social justice, and to care for the poor. Most religious people are appalled by those who use religion as a reason for intolerance and hatred. Many of us think that the aim of religion is love and peace and goodness, and we cannot understand how hateful people can call themselves religious.

My (Catholic) religious faith isn't something that can be defined in a few words. It's not obeying some authority or demagogue - it's part of my essence as a person. I don't want to convert anyone - I just want to be tolerated, and I hope people will listen to my perspective. I hope that people who know me can see that for me, my faith is a big part of what is good in me - even though that faith may not be appropriate for them. Read Quindlen's article, and don't lump us all with Mel Gibson and Jerry Falwell and George Bush and the terrorists. If you want to lump me with somebody, lump me with Desmond Tutu and Martin Luther King, and Joseph Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago, and Pope John XXIII.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:34 AM

To put it simply, Cruiser is exactly right in everything he says. The only reason I don't say this kind of thing myself is that it's too much like taking candy from babies. Religious people, no matter how nice, are fruitcakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:13 AM

I believe that we humans are greatly mistaken in thinking that we are the superior life form of the Universe.
I believe that we are a cog in the wheel .
I believe in God but not in religion.
The theory of the big bang totally defies scientific logic. If we allow them that only matter and energy were to exist, what pray tell, was it that banged to give birth to so much matter and energy as exists in the universe. The yo-yo theory maybe, but they say that at the rate of expansion it (the Universe)will not collapse.
The bottom line is that we are not intelligent enough to comprehend these things .
I do not believe that God tells us to kill each other, or that an afterlife is based on a belief in Him.
I personally have experienced things for which no scientific explanation exists and I believe that most other people have as well, but it is hard to look beyond the religious dogma that we have been taught.
       Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:19 AM

You may arrive t a point some day where you find yourself swept up in an experience so overwhelming that you wished desperately you had some words to describe it with, also.
Yeah, Amos, I did. An anti-road-to-damascus-conversion. It was exactly like waking up and realising that the whole experience of life does not need to be explained away by the existence of a higher being. As an atheist, I do not try to sway others to what I think about religion - each to their own, after all - but to suggest that people are atheists because they have not yet had some mystical experience that points them to "spirituality" is just as damning as suggesting that religion equates with fundamentalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:55 AM

I'm a bit confused as to why you thought you needed to have a separate thread for this, Cruiser. The "Faith" thread, which is quite long and covers just about every side imaginable on a subject that is, in the end, down to the individual, makes this seem a bit redundant.

Once people start declaring their beliefs, and then go on to explain exactly why they feel the way they do, and why they can't understand why everyone else doesn't see it with the same obvious clarity, is the gist of the problem, really. People choose to believe because whatever they believe suits their needs. Trying to argue against someone's chosen beliefs, in my experience, rarily if ever CHANGES their beliefs.

But, hey! If writing this, and responding to it makes you feel better, go for it..just know that it's pretty improbable that anyone is going to go away nodding their head, and saying, "Oh, NOW I understand it, and this changes EVERYTHING for me." Just doesn't seem to work that way..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:33 AM

hi Cruiser

are you bouncing from baptist to rebutter - playing philosophical ping pong, going from one form of rigid dogma to another?

enjoy the game!

fred

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:45 AM

where are those venn diagrams when you need one?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,Soma
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:20 AM

Death to the SKY FATHER, and all his works,
Death to Odin and Zeus
Death to Tewas and Jupiter
Death to Yahweh and Allah
Drag them down from on high
Bury them deep in the good Earth
Dance for joy my brothers and sisters
Dance in freedom and unity
Men and Women together
Death to the sky father

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:51 AM

(Prety; but in case there is any confusion about the poster, no connection or relation to me.)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:20 AM

"However, millions have been slaughtered In the Name of God.
What we atheists need to do is just get them to STOP THE KILLING."

I know what you mean, except I need to point out a little observed fact. More people have died making the world "safe for democracy" than any other reason. What do I mean? Well, until the end of the 19th century, we just weren't using scientific enough methods for killing each other. The death tolls WWI and WWII far surpass the killing, at least the military and political impact, of all the wars up to their time. One battle in WWI, a single battle, resulted in more deaths than all the deaths in the American Civil War and the American Revolution combined. That ignores the 25 million people is Stalin alleged to have killed in the "atheist" Soviet Union and the uncounted deaths in Communist China and other countries where God has nothing to do with the gencide.

Don't forget, too, that racism, lust for power and greed usually have hide behind something to justify war. Religion is a convenient excuse for a lot of killing that would have happened even if it didn't exist. It's possible, just possible, you're over estimating the cost of religion in blood over the course of history.

Of course, there's that other little thing. Science and reason are not without their faults. Science was god in the 50s and 60s; where did it get us? Pesticides and the silent spring. Radiation is good for you, learn to "duck and cover", you'll be safe. Thalidomide is safe for expectant mothers, give antibiotics to people and live stock and we'll wipe out disease (and not breed killer bacteria). Pollution, global warming, genetically modified foods, ICBMs and total thermonuclear war, all science run amuck. We're killing ourselves with our own technology or at least trying to.

I'm not in the least trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe or challenge your right to believe what you want. I just think that evil in people's hearts, greed, selfishness, hate, that's the real problem. You can't blame everything on religion. Do away with it and, I promise, you'll only have to shift the blame to something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM

This article might get right up your nose...go get em, Cruiser!..xx..e

http://tinyurl.com/2qc5h

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:27 AM

Strick: Brilliant post.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM

For what it is worth, Cruiser's argument is valid only for the small and tightly controlled framework in which it is born. But the peculiar nature of the infinite is that it is not perceptible to meat. This is an observation that make sno sense, scientifically, just in case anyone wants to waste their breath rebutting it. But it is an observation, nevertheless. :>)   Fortunately, religious experience -- whether Christian or any other kind -- is not held to physical scientific procedures (as indeed, how could it be?). I believe that Strick errs in asserting that is therefore not valid experience, when it is. Maybe experience that does not derive from the same theater of action as dropping cueballs from the Tower of Pisa, for example. But operating in other theaters requires a certain centered courage.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:30 AM

Frankly, I don't really care who believes what, as long as they understand that their right to swing their arm stops at the end of my nose. Otherwise, what rational person whold really care what someone else thinks or believes? Really.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:40 AM

"I stood unwound beneath the skies
And clouds unbound by laws.
The cryin' rain like a trumpet sang
And asked for no applause." (Dylan)

I haven't got time to respond to this in detail today, Cruiser. Got business to do. However, a couple of brief comments...

I am as appalled as you by the harm done by narrow-minded organized religion through the ages. It has been and remains horrific.

I am as opposed as you to investing "God" with exclusively anthropomorphic and male attributes...to the detriment of women, of animals, and of Nature.

Yet I believe in something that I call "God". What that something is requires a lifetime of contemplation to even begin to understand, and is not generally touched upon very wisely by most organized religions...although they do try in their own peculiar way to grasp it.

So we are in the curious position of being opposed to the same destructive influences in society, yet giving a different interpretation to the basis of reality as it stands around us.

You see, for me believing in God has little or NOTHING to do with belonging to or subscribing to ANY organized religion. God is a larger matter than is dealt with by religions. Nor do I see God as some sort of big super-person out there somewhere. Science is an excellent framework for approaching the God I believe in.

Intriguing, ain't it, that we agree on so much, yet disagree over certain words and their supposed implications? I'll get back to you later on this.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:49 AM

"I believe that Strick errs in asserting that is therefore not valid experience, when it is."

Beg pardon? I think all I said is that people who love reason and blame religion may have forgotten that reason has much to answer for, too.

Ellenpoly, I'm note even remotly affiliated with or qualified to join them, but go Knights of Columbus. For that matter, go Crusier. Everyone should have their say and then society as a whole should decide as democracies usually do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Cruiser
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Ellenpoly: I have read the Faith thread and I posted to it. I talked about Faith vs. faith on 25 Dec. before the other Faith thread was started. As you know, faith may not necessarily deal with any God. The tread here is specifically about a personal God and Faith and/or religion associated with that God, not Faith or faith in general.

freda: no bouncing around here. I was a believer and church member since age 5, I was baptized at 13 years-old, and I became a non-believer in my mid-twenties. I still try to search for evidence of a God. If there was evidence for the God hypothesis, I (and I am sure other atheists) would accept that evidence if it was replicative. Then there would be no need for the term atheist, except in a historical sense. I would then accept the God hypothesis. If additional repeatable evidence was forthcoming, the hypothesis could become a working theory of God.

That is the beauty of scientific inquiry and the scientific method in particular, it is self-correcting. Our knowledge (hypotheses and theories) must be updated if new evidence points to an alternative hypothesis or when exceptions are found to current working theories. These old theories, although not wrong, are replaced with new, more inclusive theories based on the new evidence.

I will write more on this later, work calls.


Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:07 AM

Cruiser:

Banish the icons, and the anthropomorphic sexist power structures; banish the enforced mythology, that bender of children's minds. Banish the vocabulary that carries so much false freight. But for God's sake keep your heart wide open, and you will always be the better for it IMHO.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

"That is the beauty of scientific inquiry and the scientific method in particular, it is self-correcting."

But it's danger is that that history shows it engenders false confidence and pride. You think because you've used reason, you're wise and have thought of all the answers. That self-correction could come to late.

Then, too, there's so much that science and reason's best practitioners have begun to admit it will never explain and things we know are true it cannot proof.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:25 AM

Joe Offers link to the Quindlen article

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:02 PM

Aren't we lucky that Amos shares his un-evidenced, un-rebuttable ideas with us.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:08 PM

Jeeze, PP -- no-one says you have to read my posts. There are a lot of opinions flying around these parts, you'll observe. Many have little evidence.   Why target mine, in particular? They are as rebuttable as any other, I suppose. If I make you uncomfortable, take a reasonably long walk off a short pier and it will clear right up.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:21 PM

Amos, muh man, I don't always agree with you, and sometimes I really disagree with you, but unfailingly, you are a gentleman. I wish I had that ability.

Having said that, let me get this off my chest: You have your head up your ass about WILLIAM SHATNER. There, I feel so much better now. Warmest regards,


Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

Bruce:

The consideration is completely reciprocal.

Thanks for your consideration, man.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM

I love it when you use BIG WORDS! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Pied Piper
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:34 PM

"This is an observation that make sno sense, scientifically, just in case anyone wants to waste their breath rebutting it"

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:55 PM

Last digression from the issue at hand. One will always know where Amos is coming from. He will share an opinion on most any subject. It will not always be "right" what ever the hell that means, but it will always be well thought out, and most generally offered in a decent manner. For anyone posting on this forum to suggest that he is more opinionated than the rest of us is laughable.

I love this place!!

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:19 PM

P_P:

Oh, I gotcha. Well, the funny thing is, it was actually a parascientific observation, but nevertheless, an observation, FWIW. There's no assurance anyone else owuld make the same observation under similar conditions, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:27 PM

not only will Amos tell you what he's thinking, but his promulgation of his extemporaneous decantations will exemplify articulate expression of loquacious cognative verisimilitude, with minor digressions into thrasonical bombast or rodomontade vacuity. And if he confuses you, he will gladly explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:44 PM

Now THAT was impressive!!! I stand on bent knee in complete awe!

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM

Bill D:

I don't like the vacuity any more than you do, pal. But some days it's all there is on the shelf, if you know wot I mean!! LOL!! At least I don't offer you a rotomontade of sulfuric methane in ASCII, like certain acquaintances around here!

And I refuse to engage in autocaprophagia, as well.

There are limits, after all.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 02:52 PM

Good for you, Amos. I wouldn't engage in that either. Nor would William Shatner.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

Any deleterious obfuscation of fact is detrimental to the well-being of--what?

I gotta change my meds.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 02:59 PM

'tain't the caprophagia 'round here that gets me, but the caprolalia that some of 'em turn INTO vitrolic ASCII. *grin* WE, of course, are gentlemen, if slightly verbose, hypersyllabicsesquipedalian gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 03:13 PM

twas hypersyllabicsesquipedalian and the slithy toves
did gyre and gymble in the wabe
all verbose were the borogroves
and the caprolalia outgrabe..

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 03:47 PM

I understood that. Meds must be working.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:00 PM

Note: Due to a typo we began to discuss the consumption of capos, an accessory for the guitar or leader of an Italian family gang. We MEANT to be discussing organisms which/ who eat shit (coprorphages). My bad. I am not sure what caprolalia would be -- the articulation of thoughts in artificial keys, perhaps.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:13 PM

Meds ain't workin' again.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:21 PM

"Note: Due to a typo we began to discuss the consumption of capos, an accessory for the guitar or leader of an Italian family gang. We MEANT to be discussing organisms which/ who eat shit (coprorphages)."

We can see that, but which of you guys is the anthropomorphic personification?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

Y'all Still ain't got the coprolinguistics right. Consult a specialist.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM

I THINK the most dangerous belief system prevalent today, as in millennia past, is a belief in any anthropomorphic personal God and its related Faith.

I start disagreeing with the very first sentence (and often at later sentences): The most dangerous belief ist the belief that some humans are better than others.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:27 PM

Right friggin' on, Wolfgang, old friend. The issue of religion, or a belief in a supreme being, only comes into play when it is used to demonstrate a superiority, or inferiority, of one group over another. It is not the belief, but how it manifests itself.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:34 PM

you said it, Wolfgang n Big Mick.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:04 PM

Sadly, I kinda disagree all the way around.

I disagree with the simplified notion that one can (scientifically? rationally? logically?) lump a bunch of beliefs together, combine them collectively as "religion" and, though they disagree with each other -- often vehmently -- invalidate them all wholesale.

If one was really going to claim to approach this logically, one would (I think) have to approach each different belief and invalidate it on it's own merits or lack thereof.

Which leads me to why I think the wolfgang/Big Mick assertion is equally weak (much as I may like those guys). I don't think all philosophies and religions are equally valid. And I do think it matters whose beliefs and philosophies are superior or inferior.

I just happen to think that those philosophical superiorities and inferiorities should be "fought out" without the aid of government intervention.

Sadly, many of those philosophies drive folks to war or antisocial action. They always have and, unless I'm mistaken, I think it's naive to think that it won't ever be thus. When they do, I believe we have no other recourse but to at least refuse them that avenue of "persuasion".

My view of Christianity is that it would be of no value to "force" someone to believe as I do. That is because the act of forcing would make the choice invalid anyway. The Christianity with which I am familiar, though generously willing to share ideas and even argue philosophy, would none-the-less be totally puzzled at the notion of forcing someone to believe as we believe. I, and Christians who belive the same as I, believe Christianity must be volitional to be valid.

Because we live in a democracy I am given a voice in our government equal to the voice of those who believe as cruiser. Though I may not believe it of any value to force specifically Christian action from the general populace, my faith informs me on any number of things upon which any number of rational people would agree (banning murder, thievery, child abuse, etc). To the extent that that is "forcing my beliefs on you"......yup, I'll vote that way. We have the right as citizens to "force each other" to act the way we think they should. Likewise, I bet you guys regularly "force" me to act according to your beliefs, your morality.

Ever been in an argument in which you knew with absolute certainty that you were right.......only to have a "peacemaker" come along and assume to be smoothing things over by charcterizing your opponent correctly, then mischaracterizing your position, and finally, in the name of "peace" suggesting a compromise on his newly established reality? Pisses you right off, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Mark Clark
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM

Harking back to Cruiser's original post, the main problem with W's “christianity” is that he uses the word without actually being a Christian or understanding the idea. Fundamentalists, whether Christian, Islamist, Hindu, Capitalist (arguably, another religion) or whatever have lost the core of their chosen faith in their zeal to use it as a weapon against the rest of us. An actual Christian would never inflict his beliefs on someone else and has faith that God will mete out any judgement that might be needed. To W, his “christianity” is just a means of claiming his divine right to rule the rest of us.

Now I'm no cosmologist, but if I understand what I read, (and I may not <g>) respected physicists now believe that superstrings may be the finaly irreducible structures of which everything is ultimately constructed. The interesting thing is that these structures are evidently thought to be two-dimensional—meaning they have no mass, no physical existance. If everything we know about is constructed only of ideas, perhaps we've proven the existance of God after all.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 07:33 PM

I'll take a part of this John, but don't let me stop you from chiming in.

Didn't think I'd get to us this again quite so soon, but here's a biography of an actual, very conservative Christian who tried for years to impose his beliefs on others. He very much influenced the property rights of wealthy individuals through out the British Empire. I have to suggest you don't really understand what a Christian is supposed to do.

William Wilberforce

BTW, you may have missed it, but according to all available information, President Bush was raised Epsicopalian and became a Methodist after he married. Both of these are essentially American versions of Anglican traditions, liberal in theology and essentially the antithesis of fundamentalism. As you all will no doubt get tired of me saying, there's absolutely nothing in his behavior or his speeches that's inconsistent with Methodist doctrine or our social principles. If he's a fundamentalist, I'm Prince William.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 07:57 PM

Well, seems to me that unilateral invasions of foreign nations, and threatening to insert theology into the Constitution, and depressing the economy, don't particularly qualify either!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:12 PM

Bush may not personally be a fundamentalist, but he values the support of the religious right enough to adopt fundamentalist rhetoric. In private, he very well may chuckle to himself and say, "What a buncha snakehandlin' morons! All ya hafta do is talk like yer one of 'em an' their votes are yours fer life!"

Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter whether he adopts a fundamentalist agenda because of his own beliefs or because he wants fundamentalist votes. It's gonna get adopted either way, isn't it?

Unless we're able to fire his ass come November.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

"Bush may not personally be a fundamentalist, but he values the support of the religious right enough to adopt fundamentalist rhetoric."

I take you wouldn't know a fundamentalist Christian from any other kind, Bee-dubya-ell. I know this is hard to understand, but most Christians use the same jargon, same figures of speech, the same symbology. I'm an adult convert, so it hits me odd sometimes, too. As I posted on another thread, if you look around the church of Bush's spritual advisor you'd think they were fundamentalist to the core. Of course it's one of the most liberal churches in the South, liberal in the theological sense (you know that "liberal" theology is the opposite of funamentalism, right?), liberal in a positive, social activist sense and liberal politically. Rev. Kirbyjon's a Black Democrat in Houston, after all.

So what exactly do think a fundamentalist is and believes, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:11 PM

Mark...as an aside, superstrings bear an uncanny resemblance to some of the purely theoretical constructs in the philosophy of Alfred North Whitehead in the 1940s. The actual nomenclature is irrelevant, but Whitehead's system attempts, and mostly suceeds, in giving a structure to what MUST be taken into account in order to even contemplate the basic makeup of reality.

   As one reads Whitehead, it becomes slippery over whether one is doing physics, metaphysics or a non-religious theology...or all of those at once. (I left school with ½ a masters thesis outlined on whether it was possible to solve the question of "free will" using Whitehead's concepts.)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Mark Clark
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 12:22 AM

Bill, Thanks very much for the link. What a wonderful expression of ideas. In relation to current events, the last paragraph seemed especially cogent.

Peace - is a ‘quality of mind, steady in its reliance that fine action is treasured in the nature of things’. It is an attitude that develops in those who look behind the pressure of immediate events to underlying factors. The tragic fact of evil does not produce despair. Rather, it stimulates us to a fineness beyond the faded level of surrounding fact. Tenderness and lack of egoism are the obvious fruits of peace of mind. Peace, since it is destructive of ruthless and narrow selfishness, involves a relaxation of mutually inhibiting tensions. Creative activities are widened in scope and strengthened. A peaceful state of mind arises when one becomes aware of the functioning of God - in particular His consequent nature.

Did you reach a conclusion on ‘the question of “free will” using Whitehead’s concepts?’

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 12:42 AM

"The most dangerous belief is the belief that some humans are better than others." (Wolfgang)

Right on, Wolfgang! I agree heartily with that statement.

The problem in the World is not whether people believe or do not believe in God...or a god...

The problems are things like: prejudice, hatred, brutality, selfishness, fear, jealousy, arrogance, sadism, greed, immaturity, and other such destructive emotional habits and attitudes.

Those problems may be found among both religious and non-religious people, among atheists, agnostics and believers.

Likewise, there are good, kindly, loving people among the religious, the non-religious, the atheists, the agnostics and the believers.

I know, cos I've met such people in all identifiable groups.

However, it is not unusual for people who have been subjected to religious indoctrination or persecution when young to assume that the biggest problem in the whole World is religion...or belief in God. For them, that is how things appear, due to their particular life experience.

For someone else, it may appear totally different. Someone whose main problems have been due to poverty, for example, will focus on issues related to that. Someone whose main problems have been connected to race or gender roles will focus on that...and so on.

This is the sort of thing that therapy is supposed to help people with.

The question is: what pushes your buttons? Whatever it is, you need to work on it and find out why. Change yourself, cos the World is not going to change for you. Once you really do that work and change yourself the thing that pushed your buttons won't necessarily push your buttons in the same way any longer. And you'll enjoy life more too, and maybe be less judgemental of those with a differing belief system.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:13 AM

Our words reveal how we perceive "God" to be. God can be referred to in naturalistic, human-like terms, such as ''the hand of God,'' and sometimes it is subtle as in ''God sees.'' Sometimes God is referred to in language as doing, eg, as in ''Then God. . . .''

The thought is like calling an ocean ''treacherous.'' Simply following a phrase about God with ''then'' places an abstract concept into a functional, temporal framework. Freud suggested that God concepts are projections of one's father.

In Christianity, faith in God is essential and redemption is through the Christ and or the Father.

In Buddhism, faith is an illusion and redemption/enlightenment can only come through one's own effort. Faith would just be another illusion created by the dualistic mind in an attempt to overcome the dilemma of self and its angst.

The Christian concept of humanity is as independently created and separate from God and nature, never equalling God or approaching God but under God and subservient to God.

To Buddhism humanity as separate from the Universe is a concept created by the human consciousness. The goal is to realise, perceive and experience the all pervasive living universe.

Some religions not only project human personal qualities onto an abstract being or consciousness, but project moral or political qualities onto that being.

That projection is the mind, externalising its characteristics in order to perceive them.

Meditation functions as a method (or methods) of becoming removed from one's subjective perceiving mind, in order to experience universal mind. Rather than imposing a faith or belief, it is a process of stripping away thought and the thinking mind.

It is then that the moment of oneness will occur. During that moment the individual mind is not perceiving, watching or analysing, because it momentarily does not exist. It has surrendered , and is part of the omniscient mind. It is in the moment of emerging from this reality that the individual mind emerges once more, regaining its individual identity and storehouse of memories, through which the mind perceives once more.   

Many paths can reach the goal, no matter how they are described, and which particular approaches are tried. This is because beyond the efforts of the individual entity wishing to unite with "God", and their particular views, beliefs or dogmas, "God", exists as the all living conscious universe, of which we are a part. despite our separation, it is always in and through us, part of us as we are part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:02 AM

A nice job, freda!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:13 AM

In the class Hardi and I teach for wannabe ministers, we like to play with the metaphors of faith and theology to see what new insights occur. A favorite of mine has been the idea of moving the whole Jesus story to the Old West. It's quite a stretch for literalists. If they apply themselves to the effort, however, soon we have gales of laughter as people take up the imagery. Communion? Sarsaparilla. Sign of the cross? Nope-- sign of the noose. Apostles? Posse. Tomb? Abandoned mine.

Once the hysteria subsides, with a few last hiccups, we settle down to the theological thinking again, and it's amazing how much more relaxedly and creatively the thinking occurs.

We use the game to unhook people from the rigidity that accompanies much of religion, even when one's early experiences have been mostly good ones. But I highly recommend this game as a way of moving on when one's early church experiences have been harmful. It's a good way to resuscitate a baby one has not only thrown out with the bathwater, but killed many times over. Because wrapped up in those early experiences is often some good stuff one has thrown out as well, and it's good to get it back.... when one gets the good parts back, it's no longer necessary to keep killing that baby or any babies like it that one might encounter.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:20 AM

I think it sounds like fun. You could do it in a space-opera metaphor, as well.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM

Been done. See LRH.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:44 AM

That's right about Buddhism, Freda. There are also forms of Christian practice which follow the Buddhist technique of quieting the mind, but very few Christians know about that or practice it.

I do not see God as a projection of my father! Yuck. :-)

I realize, however, that many people do see God that way. That's okay for them, I suppose.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:52 AM

"There are also forms of Christian practice which follow the Buddhist technique of quieting the mind, but very few Christians know about that or practice it."

The people who practice Christian meditation see it as a different thing and supposedly use different techniques. The verisons I've looked at came from monks living in isolation in the deserts of the Middle East in the 3rd or 4th century and were developed independent of any Buddhist technique. At least in their original form, who knows what we've learned from each other since.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:54 AM

Oh, and Greg, now that I'm slowly pulling my head out of my ass, I do regret some of the cheap shots I've taken.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Well, that post went to the wrong thread. But I guess any case of cranio insertum rectus worth admitting is worth admitting twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:05 AM

Well, Strick, I've witnessed it, and it seems fairly similar to me. The basic principle is: quiet the chattering mind. Into the resulting silence comes something else that is wiser than the mind. I understand that it was developed independently from the Buddhist technique.

Here's the way I see it. Primitive religion, which is generally what the great majority of religious people practice, employs the following sorts of behaviours:

ritual
emotionally charged prayer (spoken or silent)
singing (or chanting)
worshiping icons or idols
reading sacred texts
repeating prayers from sacred texts
worshiping gurus, leaders, popes, etc.
following rigid rules of behaviour as regards morality, diet, clothing, etc.
converting other people if at all possible
building sacred sites like churches
exercising financial, political, and other forms of power
marketing

Advanced religion employs this behaviour:

Quieting the chattering mind and going "within", and by this method transforming SELF rather than attempting to transform others.

The result: One becomes calmer, more peaceful, more loving, more compassionate, more courageous, happier, and wiser. One can then also practice various of the behaviours of primitive religion...in a loving and harmonious way. Singing, for example, is a wonderful religious practice.

Out of your typical 1,000 religious people I'd say about 999 of them are more inclined to practice only primitive religion, not advanced religion. And so it goes. Primitive religion has given "God" a bad name in various quarters. (to put it mildly)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:14 AM

Oh Strick, never pull it out slowly! Yank it out quick, or it's really gross!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM

Strick -

You ask "I take (it) you wouldn't know a fundamentalist Christian from any other kind, Bee-dubya-ell.... So what exactly do (you) think a fundamentalist is and believes, anyway?"

Please allow me to recommend that you read The True Believer by Eric Hoffer, The Two Faces of Religion by N.S. Xavier and just about anything by Ken Wilber. I would be wasting my time to type up a response to your question since those works have been highly influential in my own definition of "fundamentalism" and I would just be rehashing what they have already said far better than I could.

You know that "liberal" theology is the opposite of funamentalism (sp), right?

I'm a member of Unity Church, arguably the most "liberal" church in America in both theological and social terms . You know, the one that's so liberal that other Christian churches accuse us of not believing in God.

The fact that George W. Bush is a member of a very liberal congregation proves my point. Religious liberals do not usually go around invoking the name of God as justification for their actions. That particular technique is usually employed by the "God said it. I believe it. That settles it." set. That Bush, a religious liberal, would invoke God's name as often as he does stinks of pandering to the religious right.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:57 PM

But Bee-dubya-ell, I don't see Bush invoking the name of God to justify any actions. He's just acknowledging his Christianity as Christians in this part of the world do. It's not an attempt at justification, it's living who we are. No one thinks any less of people who don't. Isn't it's ridicules to start attributing specific religious attitudes to people when all you know is that the "talk religious"? Actually I think the word for that behavior is "prejudiced". Not really trying to saying you are prejudiced in the worst kind of negative sense, but in the more technical sense as when people hear something they don't understand and jump to conclusions, particularly arbitrarily negative ones.

Goodness, Bee-dubya-ell, I don't mean anything by this, but if the books you cite represent your view of religion, I can see why folks might not quite think your church believes in God. Anyone who comes from the perspective that religion is a mild (maybe not so mild) form of psychosis will have a hard time understanding the rest of Christianity.

You do know the difference between so called Liberal theology and fundamentalist theology, right? When you starting premise springs from psychological definitions of fanatism, you're sort of putting the conclusion ahead of the evidence aren't you? Not every "fanatic" is a fundamentalist and not every fundamentalist is a fanatic. Heck, not everyone you seem to consider fanatic is even a fanatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:06 PM

Mark..regarding Whitehead...the tentative thesis was that ONLY something like Whitehead's concepts could philosophically resolve the Free Will-Determinism controversy, and that properly understood, free will was a property of the basic particle-concepts. I'll confess, I could not reproduce the detailed argument any longer...but perhaps it's not necessary.

(Whitehead was an amazing guy...well ahead of his time..)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:20 PM

ta Amos. what prompted my post was a comment somewhere about belief as a form of brainwashing. what i was trying to do was to describe the process of "debrainwashing" that some methods of religion or spirituality use.

while i use the term Buddhism, the meditation that i practised was a hindu sourced meditation which had hindu techniques and also practises similar to some Tibetan Buddhist practises.

and in that last sentence, i was trying to observe that whatever form of religious observance or practise an individual may follow, the universe/god is also doing its own thing with regard to soaking enlightenment upon those who seek. but it was hard to say without making anthropomorphic comments about the universe/god!!

i would like to think that those whose approach is to strip away dogma is higher than those whose approach is to lay it on.   but
because of this other factor (random grace of a universal cosmic mind, /God) people from all religions have the opportunity to experience that moment of surrender, whatever approach they use to get there, or whatever approach the universe uses to spring it on them. because we are all limited to our particular thought patterns, while it/the Universe plays games to break our limitations and help us merge/perceive it.

the stripping away dogma thing is more of a philosophical approach to life than a religious practise. the actual meditation techniques which help to retreat from the subjective mind take it onto another level .

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:49 PM

Free will may be an attribute of the basic particle, but honoring one's connections is mandatory, as demonstrated by the particle-and-slit experiment.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Pied Piper
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:01 PM

Interesting idea, perhaps you could explain to the less developed of us exactly how wave-partical duality involves free will.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

ummm....I could copy some of the relevant passages from "Process and Reality"...I'm not sure that would be an 'explanation' without you becoming one of the 'more developed'...*wry grin*...I was beginning to wrap my head around it 30 years ago, but if you read that page I linked to up there, you'll see a LOT of terminology to assimilate.

One of my favorite quotations from Whitehead is: "Strive for simplicity, but learn to mistrust it."

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:24 PM

I am not a fruitcake.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:32 PM

Everything involves free will...but it's only useful if you choose to use it. Many don't. That is, of course, also a choice made by free will, albeit a passive choice.

When drifting downriver in a canoe toward a steep waterfall, I suggest picking up the paddle and using it to change the canoe's course. Most people are too busy doing something else habitual that they enjoy to do that, and they get swept over the falls. Then they panic, complain, and get mad at God...or at someone else. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM

Kim,

More likely, those who post venom anonymously are pathologically deformed. Howzzat?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:34 PM

I, through free will, believe in God.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:32 PM

An interesting review of a book (Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought) "explaining" why we go religous can be found here at Amazon.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amergin
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 11:51 PM

I myself do not believe in God...though sometimes it does feel like something is looking out for me...whether it be luck or not I do not know, but i strongly doubt it is God. I also am not a label. I am not an atheist, I am not a christain, and while I do have some pagan leanings, I am not a pagan. I am myself. I myself am God.

There was once a young boy who lived out in the country and they had a big pond. Now like all children he was curious and did lots of soul searching regarding his religiohs beliefs. One day he asked his Grampa if there was a god. Grampa goes "yes of course there is."

"But have you seen Him?"

"Yes," responded his Grampa. "I have seen him many times."

"Where?"

"Well go to the pond and look into its depths at noon, when that sun is right shining right into the water. It works best during the summer. Cause there's lots of sunshine around then."

Well as this was in May, the boy waited til school let out for the holidays. he woke up one morning in June and the sun was high overhead birds singing, bees buzzing horses neighing., a typical summer morning in the country.

He saw his Grampa sitting there on the front porch and told him he was going to see God, The grampa tells him to be home before supper.

The boy runs off to the pond and waits for the sun to fly straight above his head. He looks down into the water and gets angry. He storms back to his house youthful rage pounding through his heart.

Grampa looks at him and asks, "Did you see Him?"

"NO, I DIDN"T!"

"What happened?"

"I SAW MYSELF!"

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:45 AM

I think the problem may be that more people believe in God than the Goddess.

At least the Goddess is observable.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:58 AM

Perfect, Amergin. "Himself" (or herself) IS God. And so is everyone else. And Nature. And so on. And yes, you yourself are God. Unquestionably, as far as I'm concerned.

Goddess is indeed observable, Dianavan...as Nature and Mother Earth and every female being. God is observable as Sun, Sky, and every male being. And those are just two useful ways of looking at it.

Bruce - Right on, mah man! Free will it is.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:25 AM

At last we see Little Hawks true colours; he's a Puritan.
Heaven forefend that any one should experience Samadhi by means of Singing, Chanting, Drumming, Sex, Psychoactive substances or any admixture thereof.
So Shamans all round the world practise "primitive" religion.
At least Shamans have a social role and actually do things for their communities rather than pursuing there own selfish individual redemption sat under a banyan tree.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:01 AM

Hey, PP, back off my buddy, LH. He be the man. William Shatner lives!

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:43 PM

Wrong, Pied Piper. :-) I am anything but a Puritan. The wisest man I have ever met achieved Samadhi by singing and chanting. That was his particular experience, so I would certainly recommend it to anyone who wants to try it. I don't particularly recommend drugs, but that's just me...everyone is free to find their own way. Drumming? Sure, why not? Sex? Yeah, okay. It is the inner intention that is crucial, not the outer practice.

I think there are at least a million possible roads to enlightenment. What I am saying is that it is an inner experience, that's all. That doesn't mean that you can't use an outer behaviour to assist in bringing it forward.

The only problem with "primitive" religion is when it leads to primitive thinking...and we see a good deal of that in this World. "Primitive" outward religious practices when combined with subtle inner awareness can be most useful.

Gosh...I wonder if anyone has achieved Samadhi by watching all the reruns of the original Star Trek episodes in a single sustained viewing? Whaddya think, Bruce?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

"William Shatner lives!"

Threat or warning? You be the judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:15 PM

I find it difficult to believe that all of this universe came from nothing. In other words I believe it takes more faith to believe in nothing than in something.

And biogenetics proves the nothing theory false - it is not possible to make something out of nothing.

So my personal belief is that there is a God that created all of this.

Dang - I'm wowing myself here! Thank you Jesus!

Steve

On Shatner - I'm still a doubter - sorry LH -

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,speck of dust
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM

I find it just as hard to understand where a Creator came from as to understand how one could create the universe. Telling me "he was just always there" doesn't help.

I just don't bother believing when I am not capable of knowing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:43 PM

Why just one? Maybe each of us is capable of infinite reach in some form, and the creation of the universe was an evolutionary conspiracy between billions of us? 'Course neither of these hypotheses explains why we end up on this little planet on the rim of a second-rate system in a third-rate galaxy wayyyyy out on the edge of injun country. Doesn't make any more sense to me than the notion that it's the center of existence, which is ridiculous.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:04 PM

Amos - Boredom perhaps? And you may have something with your idea of each of us having "infinite reach." Jesus said in Matthew that if we had faith we could do anything He could do. So maybe it's a blending of Him and us?

I've just enjoyed reading the spirited, non-nasty, conversation about it. Usually folks have to go getting all spun up about it and try to "prove" something to the rest.

For me Christianity isn't about proving anything. It's about living a life in accordance with responsibility, accountability, integrity, and faith. If my choice is to use the Bible as that guide that is my right. Just as it is someone else's right to believe as they do. And trashing either point of view is ineloquent, denigrative, and indicative of the character assassin that utilises it. Be they Christian or not.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" my Good Book says - I've been guilty of that, and a host of other, sins. But - as a work in progress I'm trying to be more accepting of the conversation that develops when others challenge belief systems. My Janet calls that "tact" and I've been guilty of not having a lot of that in the past also.

Have a lovely day

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM

Well, that makes us pretty much alike, in that respect, Steve. Wish you the best on your elected transmogrifications!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:02 PM

in his book about Time, stephen hawkings said that an analysis of human bones shows that apart from other things our bones have traces of the ashes of dying stars in them.

we truly are part of everything, and evrything is part of us!






not that i'm pretending i was able to comprehend or finish the book!

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:28 PM

in his book about Time, stephen hawkings said that an analysis of human bones shows that apart from other things our bones have traces of the ashes of dying stars in them.

It's a very romantic, poetic thought freda, but all he's refering to is any element with a higher atomic weight than iron can not be made naturally in a star since the fusion of heavier elements consumes more energy than it creates. The heavier elements tend to come from when the times when things start to go really wrong for "old" stars (stars in different classes and masses age at different rates, so it's all relative).

We are made of the poisons that the star die and that get puked out as it's going. :D

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:12 PM

I came upon a child of God
He was walking along the road
When I asked him, "where are you going?"
This he told me

I'm going down to Yasgur's farm
Gonna join a rock and roll band
I'm going to camp out on the land
And try and get my soul free

We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden...

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM

i see no "but"...freda

(going out into the garden to do some weeding)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM

Well, ain't like I've evr been shy about talkin' 'bout my Faith round this joint but not here...

...'cause my brother, Norton1 (Steve) has stepped to plate and that ain't easy 'round the Catbox an' takes either a high level of courage or an even higher level of masochism (sp) so to Norton1 (Steve) I tip my glass and say welcome to the brotherhood.

And, BTW, for my atheists and agnostics friends here, you don't have a clue what yer missin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:59 PM

The question I would have after all the smoke settles, is why would anyone have the slightest desire to know if or why another person believes in God?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:59 PM

"but" freda, I just found it facinating that Stephen Hawkins was inspired by Crosby, Stills Nash, and Young. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:49 PM

Strick:

That is beautiful stuff, man!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,speck of dust
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

Sorry, Bobert, but I do have some idea of what I am missing. I am not worried, and do not need pity or prayer. Thanks anyway. I do wish the barely controlled preaching could be less obvious; and I also wish the loud atheistic complaining and disagreeing could be less noisy from some. We don't agree, so why keep bringing it up here? If you are right, you will get your reward. It is not necessary for you or Steve to mention your faith in most of your posts. Thanks in advance.

-speck

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:53 PM

True and tying the two thoughts together, all that glitters is star puke.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:09 PM

"It is not necessary for you or Steve to mention your faith in most of your posts."

Nor is it necessary for you to refrain from doing so.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:12 PM

Actually, there are only a few things that ARE necessary in life...

No reason to ban the rest, I hope. It could get pretty dull without them.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: GUEST,freda undeniable
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:28 PM

but/and/hitherto and consequently.. i enjoyed your posts, Strick, & was right there with them...

and furthermore, henceto and thuswise, i enjoy bruces, boberts, LHs, ..

and speckofdust, watch out, i'm coming along with my cosmic Mr Kleen and vaccuum cleaner.... and when you move on to the Great DustBag in the Sky, may the big, black fat, and aggro Goddess greet you with a round of ... "Oh Happy Day...." as you get recycled into that great big galaxial stormcloud in the skies.............

freda saywhatiwant

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:28 PM

(chuckle!)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:00 AM

*peeking back in before I leave for 5 days...and I see the lines of battle are as fuzzy...err.....dusty.. as ever...*grin*...

We do need to remember that this place really oughta remain a kinda neutral ground on matters religious & cosmological. It is a fine line between being 'on record' and having your viewpoint known--and insinuating that anyone with a lick of sense oughta see it YOUR way.

I'll be back on Mon. or Tues., fortified by lots of music. Y'all play nice, now...hear? (and nicely, too)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Pied Piper
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:07 AM

Strick you mist the best bit.
"We are star dust Billion year old Carbon"
Great song; I've just been getting back into Joni Mitchel (phna phna)after far to long an absence.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Two_bears
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:32 AM

Hi Cruiser:

I am also a former Southern Baptist;

All the time I was dragged to church by my guardians; I was a convinced athiest.

I used to be exactly like you. It took an OBE about 10 years ago that proved to MY satisfaction that we do go on after the death of the body, and gave me a spiritual awakening.

Do I believe in God now? ABSOLUTELY.

Do I believe in the God of the bible? asolutely NOT.

   I do not believe there is an all powerful creator seperate from
   creation with a long white beard.

Do I believe the bible is the Holy scriptures, and we are supposed to take it literally? Absolutely NOT.

    I believe; the Creator reveals itself to us according to our
    level of awareness. Just because God revealed itself one way to
    the ancient Jews, and another way to the young carpenter, another
    way to the American Indians, another way to the Hawai'ians, and
    another way to me, etc.

Do I believe the young carpenter died for our sins? Absolutely NOT.

    I believe that EVERYTHING (including you and me) is a
    manifestation of God. In my world view; God is in my computer,
    desk, chair, myself, and everything else in the universe.

    If you are sincere in your quest for spirituality; I would
    recommend that you read my website. http://geocities.com/huna101

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Two_bears
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:40 AM

Ooh Aah:

You are free to believe anything you like, and I am NOT offended from you calling people like myself fruit cakes.

When one lowers themself to using pejoratives; they are only demonstrating they have a small mind and heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Two_bears
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

> So Shamans all round the world practise "primitive" religion.

So what; as long as they get to know power, and don;t hurt anyone; who cares what they believe?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:49 AM

"'We are star dust Billion year old Carbon'"

P-P, I found two versions of the lyrics and just went with one. I guess diamonds are star puke, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:08 PM

Yo spec,

You are very much mistaken about draggging my Faith into most or even many of my posts. I've posted over 4000 times and have mentioned my faith is less than 20 of them.... That's not exactly like beating the drum, my friend.

And, BTW, I am not a fundamentalist in any respect...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:23 AM

Diamonds are 'star puke'?

Our 'Nonexistent God' is an 'Anthropomorphic Per'?

Anyone who chooses to do the extensive inner work required for spiritual development is just pursuing there own selfish individual redemption?

Well, maybe people would be MUCH better off continuing to grope around in spiritual blindness, oh so very kindly sharing that personal ignorance with all their neighbours too huh?

And geez, come to think of it, silk is nothing but worm s**t too!

Well, everything I ever needed to know I learned right here on the Cat!   Hmmmm ... think I'll go slit my miserablepurposelessrandomlymutatedbutcertainlynot!DivinelyCreatedwrists now .....

;-)    daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 05:26 PM

Bobert, of all the writers on the Cat, you are my fave. Spec of dust, your comments had nothing to do with Bobert. He is Our Man of the Day.





you are just a speck of dust. know your place.

Queen Freda

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:58 PM

The stardust theory is new to me and very interesting because of an "encounter" I had last year the night before we scattered the ashes of Alan Farrell, a well-known boat builder and man of the sea.

I was having a midnight pee on a very secluded island. I was all alone with the stars above when I "sensed" laughter and a voice twinkling from the sky. It was Alan's voice. I realized I was on the bluff above his favorite anchorage. He said he was now a star. Ever the doubter, I asked if Sherry (his late wife) was there too. He said she was her own star. I asked if they could talk to each other. He said they didn't have to - all they had to do was shine for me.

I walked away knowing that there was a life thereafter of another sort. I now wonder if its true that when a star dies, a soul is born and vice versa.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 08:03 PM

Well gol danged, freda underhill.... Thankee fir them kindest of words an', ahhhh, geeze...

(The Bobert looks down at his feet as if they had anything to do with anything other than transportation....)

Awwwww, shucks, mam.............

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:48 PM

Aw wuz jus' doin' whut Ah thot was raht, ma'am....

Shucks!


:>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:57 PM

Dianavan:

Language always fails when it comes up against intense direct experience.

Regardless of that, I find your description of meeting Alan beautiful.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 12:43 AM

"Diamonds are 'star puke'?"

daylia, the imagery and the assonance ("We are stars**t, We are golden") would have worked better if I had the heavy elements coming out the other end of the star, but I have some standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: *daylia*
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 06:11 AM

Ok Strick, I get it now. (I think).... but if stars expel diamonds from that end, how do they deal with those astronomically vicious hemmorhoids?   

And what the h*** do they eat, anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:43 AM

Hydrogen scattered by the Big Bang (I'm beginning to think of the stars as pigeons as I write) and, of course, what older star expelled.

I must point out that the stars dispense elemental carbon, not diamonds as a rule, but diamonds wouldn't exist without them.

You might also keep in mind this version of the story comes from a youth mispent reading when I thought I wanted to be a physicist. The underlying theory could have changed by now. For all I know modern physicists might think it's Pee Wee Herman's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:59 AM

meanwhile, back at the ranch, Phillip Adamas was discussing Science and the Universe with a well known physicist.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/morebigquestions/stories/s540211.htm

That discussion is pretty interesting, and almost comprehendable, for someone wondering whether we're made of star dust or particles.


This next one is even freakier. if I understand right, this guy believes in multiple universes...

http://www.abc.net.au/science/morebigquestions/stories/s540596.htm

(What you have to conclude in that case, according to the rules of quantum physics, is that there are two possible worlds: one with a left-moving electron, the other with a right-moving electron, and both of these worlds somehow co-exist in a hybrid reality.... It is like taking two movies and projecting them onto the same screen although this simplifies things a bit because a quantum superposition entails an interference of images, not just an overlap.

In the more general situation there are infinite possible outcomes of a scattering event or some other atomic process, and we must imagine an infinite number of alternative realities — or contenders for reality — superimposed upon each other; a superimposed reality. In this amalgam of possible worlds, each individual contender is a sort of ghostly half-reality — it is less than real, in the sense that true reality comes only when we look and see what is actually happening. Only when an observation is made can we be sure as to which of these outcomes has actually taken place. ...

well, have a good night!

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:45 AM

Multiple Universes is one and perhaps the only theory that makes sense given what we know about quantum mechancs and time. I like th eidea of parallel jumps, too. But it is a strain on the brain, I admit, compared to the Newtonian one-world space-time box.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 12:10 PM

If God doesn't exist, then humans have made something out of nothing.

(And I haven't even had a coffee yet.)

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 12:20 PM

And if He does exist, some of us are in one hell of a lot of trouble. Feel free to decide who for yourself (for now).

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM

One thing is for sure -- He doesn't exist in any form or way that can conceivably be described with the third person singular masculine pronoun!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 12:26 PM

And you guys DID have your coffee.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 12:40 PM

Some of us are in for a hell of a lot of trouble regardless, Strick. :-) I don't think of God as a punishing judge, but I know some people do. Yet it says in the Bible (and various other spiritual sources) "thou shalt not judge (others)". Hmmm. Does this mean that only God is enabled to judge? Perhaps. Or perhaps it means that the entire process of judging others is a badly flawed concept, not worthy of engaging in. I tend to think the latter.

I think, Strick, that you were victimized by unscrupulous Republican programming early in life...as only something that pernicious could cause a person to apply nastily charged words like "puke" to something as beautiful and majestic as a star.

(Don't worry...I'm joking about the Republican thing...kind of.)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM

some people do. Yet it says in the Bible (and various other spiritual sources) "thou shalt not judge (others)". Hmmm. Does this mean that only God is enabled to judge? Perhaps. Or perhaps it means that the entire process of judging others is a badly
-----

In my opinion; there are only two beings qualified to judge a person is the Creator, and themself.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 01:57 PM

Thanks, Amos -

It was an experience I'll never forget but one which I am always hesitant to tell. I guess nobody wants to be labelled a "wing nut" but I sometimes I think that the absence of religious, church upbringing has been a blessing for me. It has left open the doors for direct experience. I'm quite thankful that I have been able to develop my own belief system.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

Yeah, that's the way it was for me too, Dianavan...no religious upbringing whatsoever, leaving me free to my own experience and interpretation of life. The most hardbound atheists I have ever run into (I call 'em "born-again" atheists...cos they want to convert everyone!)...were the sons or daughters of fire and brimstone Christian fundamentalists. The one is the mirror image of the other.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Cruiser
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

Thanks for the diverse views.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 05:53 PM

hi dianavan


that was a beautiful encounter & very moving. I also had a similar experience, 20 years ago when a close friend died. she came to me and spoke to me, as your friend Allan did to you.

(but she didn't mention stars! that was amazing)

your comments were the most significant here, being based on experience, not on any theorising or opinion.


best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Per
From: Strick
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 06:22 PM

"Yet it says in the Bible (and various other spiritual sources) 'thou shalt not judge (others)'."

Try to understand that "judge not least ye be judged" (which isn't what you quote, I know), is one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible and doesn't mean what I think you think it does. Judge people, no; judge behavior, lovingly insist people reform, yes.

I was just being silling, not making a religious statement about hell. Hell's not what some people think it is anyway, and where I'd have more to say on it, I honestly can't think of a way to say it that would help rather than hurt the situtation on this forum. Just be sure I'm not ever going to condemn anyone to hell, but I can suggest some ways to get there.

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Person
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM

The original Subject title of this thread is:

'Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity'

I did not consider that the Subject line only accepts a certain number of letters and the others are deleted. The line was truncated at Per. I see that a helpful Clone has tried to clarify that. Person is close enough to Personal. I should have been more concise. More succinctly, I could have used: Nonexistent: An Anthropomorphic God

Cruiser

---

Hi, Cruiser - i was guessing at what you wanted for a title. Now that I know what you wanted, I squeezed it in as well as I could.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Person
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:00 AM

I entirely agree with your interpretation of the "judge" statement in the Bible, Strick. The wise course is to judge actions, not the individuals who commit the actions. You then take appropriate measures to regulate those individuals' future actions (hopefully). This does not mean you have passed judgement on the intrinsic value of the individual, but you have placed a value judgement on their behaviour.

It's fascinating to watch a show like The Sopranos. One is watching a group of career criminals, and seeing the various events of their lives. Everything they do makes sense to them, but not maybe to you or me. Are they evil people? Well...some of the things they do are evil, without question. But...they also love, hope, fear, aspire, and experience everything else that other people do. They are a mixture of good and bad, like most people. Their intrinsic value is beyond another person's judgement.

One cannot simply dismiss another human being as "evil" without missing part of what that person is.

You have to wonder where Tony Soprano's mother is concerned though! :-) What a monster she is.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Person
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:14 PM

You're so right Little Hawk. The space between the bible thumpers and the born again atheists is wide indeed. Seems to me that anyone with an open heart and a mind of their own can and should find a faith to bring them through troubled times. The dogma of religious organizations create too much conflict and atheism doesn't leave much room for compassion.

Personally, I don't need anyone to tell me the difference between right and wrong and as to an afterlife, nobody knows for sure. Heaven or Hell? Lets just say that life is what you make it.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Nonexistent: God, An Anthropomorphic Person
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:42 AM

Odds on that God exists, says scientist; Stewart Maclean, Catherine Bolsover and Polly Curtis; The Guardian, Monday March 8, 2004

A scientist has calculated that there is a 67% chance that God exists. Dr Stephen Unwin has used a 200-year-old formula to calculate the probability of the existence of an omnipotent being. Bayes' Theory is usually used to work out the likelihood of events, such as nuclear power failure, by balancing the various factors that could affect a situation.

The Manchester University graduate, who now works as a risk assessor in Ohio, said the theory starts from the assumption that God has a 50/50 chance of existing, and then factors in the evidence both for and against the notion of a higher being.

The unusual workings - which even take into account the existence of miracles - include a spreadsheet of the data used so that anyone can make the calculation themselves should they doubt its validity.

Dr Unwin said he was interested in bridging the gap between science and religion. He argues that rather than being a theological issue, the question of God's existence is simply a matter of statistics.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:46 PM

hey you all suck...... you can all take turns in shoving your head up eachothers asses... because obviously you all have nothing better to do...... MY son has a higher IQ then all of you cock blocks combined..... which unfortunatley doesn't suprise me......

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 12:59 PM

Sounds like someone heard Penn Jillette on NPR yesterday "This I Believe" and is upset enough to revive this thread for no good reason other than a poverty of anything particularly bright to say. I'll see if I can find a transcription before this thread drops off the line.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 01:18 PM

Y'mean this one ? This is most of it - some may have dropped off.

From the pen of Penn Jillette.....

"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond Atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The Atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have."

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 01:26 PM

HA HA! Egomaniacal non-jewish-christian-catholic-protestant-morman-muslism-buddihst sons of bitches. GOD IS MY HOMEBOY!! Screw you guys, i'm goin to get laid...

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 01:43 PM

That ios one of the finest arguments in favor of personal responsibility I have yet read. My own problem with many "definitions" of Godhood is that they impose "otherness" on "It", thus seriously sdulterating one's own sovereign power of ownership over one's own experiences.

Of course, I could be wrong about that, too.... LOL!


A

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 02:39 PM

Wesley S:

Thank you.

Guest:

Time to refill that prescription...

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 04:04 PM

Father forgive.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:35 PM

Mother forgive (just in case!)

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 06:05 PM

Is 'Nothing' sacred? ;-)

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 06:31 PM

How does a single drop of water go about defining the ocean and deciding whether or not it exists? How does a single fiber describe the blanket it is a part of? How does a single photon of light prove that Light exists? If a single photon of light decides that Light doesn't exist (having been offended by an organized religion that some of the other photons started up about Light), how valid is its presumption that there is no Light?

Therein lies your problem, Cruiser.

That, however, has not too much to do with your concerns about organized religion, some of which are quite valid.

God, by definition (being infinite), is not separate. Not from you or anyone else or anything else. But if you try looking around you for evidence of something that is not separate, you simply won't find it, because the physical senses perceive in terms only OF separation...the observer and the observed. Who is the observer? Consciousness itself.

There are only 2 things that are not separate:

1. Everything
2. Nothing

Those 2 things are what God is. The "1" and the "0". The IS and the ISN'T. The Alpha and the Omega.

You cannot see them, and they are not separate from you. You CAN make up a crazy religion, though, if you want to, and imagine a separate God that is somewhat like you, only much bigger and possibly much meaner...that's easy. ;-) It's also rather silly. People kill each other over the separate gods they have made up.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 07:16 PM

As humans we are not infallible, even though at times we may think we are. God gave man free-will to do as he wants and we do! If you choose to believe fine, if you don't fine but we should be careful not to knock each other if we don't actually agree.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Amos
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 07:58 PM

When we're right, we're infallible, even if it doesn't happen often enough!

A

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: GUEST,greenboy
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 09:10 PM

ya'll willhave to forgive me, i am not very well spoken and my typing is even worse. i do however know something bout( and i ment to type bout)this god thing.

imagine a guy that has a massive car wreck. broad sided by a peterbuilt to be exact.his vital sings are almost nonexistant, but there enough that the medics can do nothing more than watch to see what happens. this man gets careflighted to the best hospital in the area. on the way the medics call in to notify the hospital to expext a d.o.a.
he has massive internal injuries, a fractured scull, more broken bones than most people haveseen at one time. this happens when a diesel truck hits a ford ranger.

the doctor comes out to the family to tell them that the best that he can do is keep the man comfortalbe till the end, that should come in the next couple of hours.
the next morning, the doctor has the nurse wheel him out to the family so that they can say their good-byes.
they place him in trama i.c.u. for the time being but to be honest even if he comes out of the operation, the best that the family can hope for is a vegetable.

20 days in the trauma unit. 3weeks in a private room. and 3 days in a rehap. unit that was a borderline joke.

why did a man at the age of 20 go from being a called in d.o.a. to sitting at a computer 15 years later typing this message?

from the time that glenna walls came to the bed of my truck and tried to get my attention, to the day that i was picked up out of my wheel chair by my dad and placed in thecar for the ride home, i had people praying to an almighty God for my protection and for heeling of my body.

i am not a christian because of what i was told as a child. i am not a christian because it is a nice group of people to belong to.

i am a christian because of the things that i have seen, experianced, and the things that i have been through that most say should have not turned out the way they did.

you asked how can a god that made all the stars in all the worlds and never be seen by the hubble be concerned or even hear our prayers. i wish i knew. the love that God has for the things that he created is far past my comprehention. but i can say it happens.

i do not ever remember hearing goerge bush say that the war in iraq was started after he got the ok from God. the war in iraq has nothing to do with our leaders faith. and you have no idea how good it feels to say that, a leader with faith, thank God. you really want to know why i will tell you but it would take longer than what i have.

the statement that faith based organizations have done nothing but contribute to the demise of manhood( forgive me i am para phasing) has got to be the biggest lie i have heard in a long time.

chritian childers fund, reliev funds from any number of churches in any state. the fact that people will go to a church looking for help when they don't have the gas to get to their homes 2 states away.

most of the time i cometo this web site to get some laughs on a bad day.all i can say is that i am praying for you all,and that i feel susu's hubby wil have a field day with this one.

thank you for your time
                greenboy

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 09:44 AM

Well said, Greenboy. I am glad you made it.


A

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:29 AM

I won't even try...

but it's always good to hear of someone getting thru bad times.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:29 PM

Those who have been assisted by God (however they see or understand what "God" is or means) are in no need of assurance as to that help being real. It's real.

You don't have to be a Christian to receive that help. You can belong to any religion. You can even belong to no particular religion.

It's people who expect or demand exclusivity of membership in this or that religion, not God. God is Universal, and predates all religions. (in my opinion)

Religions are the result of the various attempts of people throughout history to deal with and articulate something that is simply beyond their understanding. The mind cannot grasp it.

In the case of a person who thinks he IS his mind... (Bill?) ...this is a conundrum that seems unacceptable. ;-)

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:07 PM

On last night's Nightline, Ted Koppel reprised a subject and man, Morrie Schwartz, whom he had visited before, along with guest Mitch Albom who wrote the book called 'Tuesdays with Morrie". It was a moving, loving look at how one man viewed his impending death due to Lou Gehrig's disease.

The ultimate thought that I garnered was Morrie's parable.

He said that one day a wave in the ocean saw that far ahead other waves were crashing on the beach and realized that that would be his end too. He became very depressed but had no choice but to continue toward his demise. A female wave came up alongside him and asked, Why are you so depressed?

The male wave said, Look at where we're going. You don't understand-you will be annihilated just like me.

She smiled. 'You don't understand,' she said. You are not the wave. You are the ocean.'

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:23 PM

Guest, greenboy:

You are stating a common perception from those who go through trying circumstances and get to live. There are many foxhole conversions. Those who don't make it out of the foxhole don't get to write the hagiography to their chosen savior.
And of course, you are not going to live forever. Like the rest of us, your time got extended another second, another hour, another day.

Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 04:46 PM

Those who don't make it out of the foxhole, for all you know, may be experiencing something considerably better than you think...once they are free of the body.

But you'll have to wait and see about that.

What did the wave experience after crashing into oblivion on the shore? Nice parable, Ebbie!

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: GUEST,greenboy
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 12:50 PM

hawk, no i do not believe that you have to be part of my religion(though i do not remember saying anything bout religion) to get that type of blessing. iknow plenty of people that have recieved the same blessing that do not acknowledge Gods existance. but the fact is the blessing comesfrom the same place.

ebbie,i see 2 different ways to see this parable. oneis that we are more than just a speck or a wave in this world, we are what makes the world. i couldnot agree more. or the2nd way isthat we will come back again and again. if this is the way it is meant, i would not blameanyone for not believing in God. who would want to serve a God that would make them go through this life twice.i know that my God lovesmeenough to not make me go through this again.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 02:39 PM

Little Hawk, your writings about 'does a fibre know it's part of a blanket, how does a photon of light prove that light doesn't exist, what does the wave experience after crashing on the shore?'etc are all very poetic but you seem to forget that these objects don't have brains and we do. If you wan't to call observable reality 'god' then you are a fellow pantheist - hooray! -, but for goodness sake cut out the quasi-mystical stuff- it does not make for a useful argument.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 02:42 PM

But see, greenboy, reincarnation to my way of thinking is not a punishment but a means of learning. As such, it could easily be the product of love from a being that wants each of us to become the best that each of us can be.

Among the reasons I say that is because a three day old baby, a three year old child, a thirty year old man and a ninety year old woman have not experienced the same life or lessons.

I would imagine, Little Hawk, that the wave in the parable is a much wiser being after he recognizes and rejoins the waters of the ocean, one with a much wider view.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 03:32 PM

OohAh, wherever did you get the idea that "knowing" was something that required a brain to occur?

Dear me, that could lead you to the superstition that you were entirely bounded and defined by meat!! What an awful and oppressive belief that would be!


A

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 05:24 PM

There ya go, Amos. *G*

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Nov 05 - 06:40 PM

Brains gather separated bits of information, and perform various other functions useful in maintaining a physical body (and entertaining its ego...). I do not regard the brain as the ultimate item in the functioning of consciousness. Hardly. ;-) I regard consciousness as what constructed the brain in the first place.

Here's an interesting thing. I saw the ghost of a cat once, and it behaved much like the cat did when in the body, even vocalized audibly, yet it did that without either a physical brain or a physical set of vocal chords! That indicates to me that consciousness can exist quite independently of physical bodies, and does. And, yes, it was the cat's ghost. No doubt about it. The cat had died and been buried the previous day.

Now, you can just say I had a hallucination if you want, Ohh-Ahh...(shrug)...you weren't there. And believe me, if I could summon up hallucinations, I would opt for Dejah Thoris or Diana Rigg or someone like that...not the late cat! (he was a stray whom we had assisted off and on for a couple of years, and I believe he was grateful to us).

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:44 AM

Wesley S - You are absolutely right. Personal responsibility is a much more difficult road than believing in an all forgiving God.

Thats my biggest gripe about those who belong to an organized religion. They always go around patting each other on the back, convincing each other of their self-righteousness. They commit all kinds of atrocities in God's name and yet they are either in fear of him or believe that he will save them.

Its pretty easy to be a Christian and leave it all up to God. Lets face it, some people have an internal locus of control and others need to be controlled by external, social forces. Some people believe in fate and others take control of their lives.

I'm just glad I have choices and that I have my own spiritual beliefs to sustain me. If he exists, I doubt very much God will punish me for those beliefs. So far, so good. I don't need the crutch but if you do, who am I to deny you the right to use it?

...and now I'm outa here because we've been down this road too many times before.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 01:03 PM

Does existence exist? If so, God does. What I am saying is, God IS existence...

That being the case, Dianavan, how can God punish you? God would have to be apart FROM you to be motivated to punish you, and I don't believe that's possible. Besides, are you important enough in the greater scheme of things to merit punishment? (grin) Are any of us???

The only reason people imagine God dealing out punishment is because they are insecure, fearful, and self-important. They figure God is kind of like that too...only bigger. That's ridiculous. Such a God would not be worth having in the first place.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 25 Nov 05 - 07:20 PM

Let me get this right Little Hawk... your 'proof' that the brain is not what determins conciousness is that you once saw the ghost of a cat...!

My respect for your intelligent imput on other threads is the only thing that prevents me from making the obvious sarcastic rejoinder!

Of course you were hallucinating, and there is increasing scientific evidence to suggest that religion, and in particular religious visions, are a function of the brain. Scientists have even located the region of the brain responsible and noted that when it is damaged or unusually developed the person often suffers from constant hallucinations and/or religious mania.

Amos, of course you need a brain to know something! What else would you use, your toenails? Or were you being gnomic? If so, why not talk in clear language, if the poverty of your arguments can stand it.

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Amos
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:48 PM

Ooh Ah:

You are arguing from a circular loop anchored in the premise that the You of you is the body and therefore OBVIOUSLY thought centers in the brain.

But I suggest that the You whol looks at the body is not the body and uses the brain as a simple shock absorber, amplifier, and control box. Finding the places in the brain "responsible for" thought is like undoing the wiring of a cell phone to find out which transistors hold all those personalities that you can hear in it.

As for God, here's an old quote I thought germane:

"My "God" is this: the unfolding of all beings. Beyond that, he is numinous Causation, unformed, indiscriminate, all-permeating, unidentified, non-centric, non-terminal, and while not unknowable certainly not describable in any framework to be found in the explicate time-bound and space-bundled part of existence.

The problem with the language of most organized religions, and many of the branches of Christianity in particular, is the imposition by language of explicate frames of reference on the implicate.
We cannot avoid this entirely in any zone, religious or not. Our experiential baseline, from which so many of our expectations are defined, is drawn naturally in large measure from the appearances of the explicate universe. Embedded in the forces and spaces and time-boxes of material apparency, we measure the world in a way that makes sense to our bodies and its extensions. We target our expectations to take place in the same framework.

If anyone ever wondered why the "Wheel" – the endless recycling of beings through lifetimes – seemed to be such a persistent pattern, this mechanism is a key part of the answer – the loop of perceive, evaluate and intend which draws our attention and our ability to create futures repeatedly back to the baseline framwork of human effort and its explicate-universe vocabulary. That vocabulary is a loop of its own which dampens the possible by burying it under the familiar.

So this is not a religious or Christian issue; it is a fundamental philosophical and metaphysical one. Not to say ontololgical and epistemological. How we know is perhaps the key thread. The enduring illusion is that we know from explicate forms and pictures of explicate forms. All our efforts at de-stressing others and relieving them of charge or distress circles around that campfire. The truer picture is that we know from the enfolded to the explicate, and then fool ourselves with the apparencies generated by our knowing, into taking the manifestations more seriously than the sources. This is the Big Lie of all time.

The state of beings in the explicate universe is kind of beaten up by this endless self-whanging. Like a tribe of mad dancers hitting themselves in the head with frying pans in the moonlight: Whack! Gonng! Whack! Gonng! They dance a frenzied circle around the flames, beating themselves toward unconsciousness. Traditionally, the first to render himself knocked out cold is elevated in esteem and privelege among the bucks of the tribe. He gets to paint purple circles around his armpits for a year and his frying pan gets elevated to the top of a tall pole in the center of the village. "Whack! Gonng!". The dance goes on past midnight – these are hard-skulled bucks, indeed.

"Why are you doing that?", enquires the anthropologist.

"It is our way," they answer. "This is how we Know."

Freud once remarked that it seemed that "every conversation takes place between at least four people."

"We shall have a great deal to say about this," he added.

He didn't know the half of it.

And now, I really have to get to work. Let's see...where did I leave that frying pan?"

---

From here

A

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:25 PM

Just say "Hillary", Ohh-Ahh. You will feel better every time you say it. Keep saying it. Do you feel that wonderful feeling building. Oh, yeah! ;-)

Why do you care what I believe, anyway? What difference could it make?

Subject: RE: Nonexistent:God, An Anthropomorphic Personal Deity
From: John O'L
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 05:24 PM

Is that yours up the pole this week Amos?