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BS: Another reincarnation story.
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Subject: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM No surprise to me. I know about this stuff already. Check it out at: http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=3724 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Rustic Rebel Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:07 PM So is it really reincarnation or our lives multidementional? Are we actually living from the past or are we living several lives co-existant? My belief leans toward the aft. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: katlaughing Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:23 PM Thanks for the link, LH. Of course this kind of thing has long been acknowledged in places like India. Our youngest daughter had never been to Boulder, CO and had never known any of her grandfathers when we went there when she was about three. While driving down one of the main streets, she told us all about how she had lived there with her grandfather. RR, good question. There certainly could be different realities/dimensions, but I believe we are on a spiral of incarnations, raising our consciousness with each progression and from what we've learned from each experience. To me, the Essence of oneself inhabits one body/incarnation at a time, though may astral travel to other realms, always, one would hope, returning to that body until time to pass on to the next incarnation. For the Essence/Soul to exist in several different concurrent realities would seem very scattered and non-progressive, imo.:-) katwhooncewasursula:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:23 PM Curious quote KittleKattle - "never knew any of her grandfather's".....bad breath....sick humor....wet-pampers.....inheritance money?????
What possision of GrandPa did she not know?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: mack/misophist Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:37 PM Extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof, and very careful investigations. As far as I know, no properly investigated reincarnation case has stood up to careful examination. And really, investigations by true believers don't count. They don't want to disprove it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:03 AM The desire to disprove is abundant, mack. This is on the surface of it a strong argument for prior familiarity with the details. The referenced page,m though, is woefully short on procedural data, so there is no assurance that there was any rigor to the research or the process of discovering his memories aligned with external "objective:" history. They leave the believer to assume the discipline is there, which is really unfortunate. If they had documented every step of the process it would be much more convincing. Kat and Garg are both right -- the kind of reincarnate memories you are likely to encounter are thrillingly indicative of past lives and are also ridiculously full of holes from any rigorous perspective. Too bad. Maybe they are both true! I have a lot of personal certainty that Kat's model is precisely correct, but I am not about to try and sell that notion to someone who isn't so inclined, anymore than I would try to sell a V8-Corvette to a white-haired granny. A RR: Your question is a good one. It is purely a matter of degree whether the individual is (a) bound down to an individual body (b) bound in to an individual viewpoint that transcends from one body to the next or (c) is capable of transcending identity to the point of Being multi-dimensionally through time past and future, as you describe. These are not contradictory models, they are gradients of the same evolution. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:07 AM There was a book a few years back named something like "20 Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation". As I recall the author said that he hadn't proved reincarnation, but that he had enough evidence to show that the subject was worth taking seriously, and worthy of further investigation. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Cruiser Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:19 AM Little Hawk, Surely, you don't believe this stuff! This does not fit in any side of the brain, even in the creative, right side. But, (sigh) I guess if letting your mind "wander" like this helps it be creative so you can create important "treasures" like "Dipwollow" well.... Keeping an open mind is important, but when opening it don't let ALL the smarts fall out! Cruiser |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:21 AM Cruiser: All I can say is, be prepared for an orful surprise. There is nothing smart about the "man-from-mud" model of existence, IMNSHO. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:24 AM Rustic Rebel, Time as we understand it is a man-made invention. There is no reason to believe that the cosmos behaves according to man-made rules. For all we know, everything that has ever happened and everything that ever will happen might all be happpening in this instant, right NOW, which means, I suppose, that time operates in a sort of a sideways direction, rather than forwards and/or backwards, eh? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: katlaughing Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:40 AM John, that sounds like a bit like a chaotic stasis.:-) anymore than I would try to sell a V8-Corvette to a white-haired granny. And, why not?! Esp. if she's wearing purple! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: LadyJean Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:51 AM If someone was regressed into a past life and started speaking Basque, or Cornish, or some similar obscure language then I'd believe them. Otherwise, I figure they've been coached, or they've seen a movie or read a historical novel, or maybe a documentary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: LadyJean Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:35 AM According to the "Weekly World News", George W is the reincarnation of King Bushwa Lyingsack Ushet of the kingdom of Atlantis. Maybe there is something to this reincarnation thing after all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: LadyJean Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:37 AM For those of you who don't live in the U.S.A. "Weekly World News" is an American tabloid, that focuses on improbable stories, like the Bat Boy, or the alien who advises presidents, though not Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:54 AM LadyJean, is that one of those with the hilarious headlines of features inside? Like 'Life after Death- GUARANTEED!' It really hit my funny bone when I saw that in the checkout lane, because if there is no life after death, who are you going to collect from? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: jacqui.c Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:18 AM This comes down to a matter of faith. The arguments rehearsed could be used for any world religion. It isn't possible to prove or disprove any of the theories or beliefs - they are either accepted or not. I have had instances of 'knowing' something that I could not possibly have experienced in my lifetime - possibly a past life memory? I'm not discounting that but, at the same time, I won't say for sure that's what it is, because I can't prove it. My belief is that we live many lives but why and for what purpose I don't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:59 AM If there is a supreme intelligence overseeing all of this, then there is no reason to expect its motivations to be logical to us. There is no reason to expect any of us to understand anything of what it does. This is where belief and faith come into their own. If, on the other hand there is no supreme intelligence at all, then there is even less reason to expect to be able to fathom the great mysteries, since there are none. Now then, where was I? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Jeanie Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:53 AM I'm not suggesting any kind of answer here, just wondering out loud: On one level, we humans (and all created things) are unique and individual and that is something to celebrate in ourselves and others, but, tantalisingly, we have glimpses (or more) of a different reality, in which we are All One. There seems to be a great drive in humans to assert their individuality, but I do wonder sometimes whether on a level of soul/spirit, it is our collectiveness and oneness which is paramount. We like to think of ourselves as progressing, maybe from one physical life to another, but perhaps that is only one slant on what could be happening. Maybe the individuality on the earthly/bodily plane does not exist in the same way on spiritual planes ? Maybe there is a kind of "pool of spirit" from which we emerge as individuals and return to, both whilst inhabiting this earth in our physical bodies and when we do not have a body to live in ? I feel it is very possible to tap into what has been described as a "collective unconscious". I have experienced this many times when "becoming" another person when rehearsing and acting on stage. These experiences could be 'explained' in many ways: a tapping into an otherwise hidden part of our own individual selves; a recollection of a past life experience; contact being made with the spirit of a person who has died and is inhabiting another plane of existence; a tapping into a collective pool of experience... To me, it hardly matters what label one puts on it. It is a most wonderful thing, to be treasured when it happens. - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Partridge Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM Jeanie, I like your wonderings very much. I too am not going to attempt an answer, but here are some of my wonderings. What if our lives here on the earth were a sort of learning experience - going to school if you like. We are here to learn how to cope with some sort of suffering to help us to grow spiritually. Our Souls live forever and our bodies are the shells we used to live our lives in this earthly realm. Our souls are pure love and part of The Creator. We judge ourselves when we die by the way we have treated our fellow humans, if we learn our lesson we progress to a higher realm, if not then we have to come back at a later stage and have another go. I believe that the soul rests in your conscience. those that have one are perhaps more spiritual than those without. I think that we should love more, that is, each other, the planet and the Creator. love Pat xxxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: jacqui.c Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:52 AM Kendall here. What this boils down to is simply this; either you believe or you don't. No one can say they have the answer because no one really knows.Disagree all you want but you don't have the right to make statements such as..letting your brains fall out. That is just arrogance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Partridge without cookie Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:17 AM look here Have a look at the above link, there are some more reincarnation stories, some with scientific evidence Pat xx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Escamillo Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:26 AM This makes me wonder about a bizarre idea. Is the humankind really making some progress? Are we spiritually superior (in average) to our ancestors, or are we worse, more unmerciful, more cynical ? It would be possible that one day, that Supreme Intelligence could look at our Earth, declare us a complete failure and leave us alone. For now, un abrazo Andrés |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:52 AM Escamillo, Interesting scenario. Alternately, the Supreme Intelligence might look down on humanity one day and say "Well, they've finally gone through it all and reached the final stage" (or the highest plain, or whatever) "the job's done." What then? Is it the getting there that counts, or the being there? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Jeanie Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:03 AM Or, John, just to put another tantalising slant on it, are we already 'there', have we always been 'there' and just don't (always) see it ? Is 'there' here ? - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 30 Apr 04 - 07:34 AM Fair comment, Jeannie. Buddha is said to have stepped back from entering Nirvana when he achieved enlightenment, choosing to continue in the world and teach others how they can do it too. Maybe that's the whole point of it. Maybe he actually did go into Nivana by staying right where he was. I honestly can't see the point of achieving neverending etherial mindless bliss, but as I think I said earlier, the logic of the omniscient is not made of the same stuff as my logic's made of. (At least I think I said something along those lines) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM Amazon offers these, and there are a good many others on the subject available. It is worth noting that if you consult all the inhabitants of the planet, a huge majority of them will be in the camp which supports the belief of the individual as a spiritual entity which survives death. The Western notion of death is actually an anomalous minority opinion. A OLD SOULS : Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives by Thomas Shroder Children's Past Lives : How Past Life Memories Affect Your Child by Carol Bowman Return From Heaven : Beloved Relatives Reincarnated Within Your Family by Carol Bowman European Cases of the Reincarnation Type by Ian, Md. Stevenson Life After Life : The Investigation of a Phenomenon--Survival of Bodily Death by Raymond Moody |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Jeanie Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM Here's another one: "Life Before Life" by Helen Wambach. I don't know if it is still available (my copy was printed 1979). - jeanie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:47 AM One of my daughters, when she was aged around three, said she had been on fire and burning. Why? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:21 AM Probably because she had been. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM Exactly. She had been on fire...in another existence, in another place and time. You can't destroy energy. Life is a form of organized energy, and some of us call that energy "the mind" or "the emotions" or "the nervous system" while others call it "the soul"...we call it all of those, and it is all of those. That energy builds a body, following conception, one cell at a time inside the womb or the egg (or from a seed, etc.) until it has a fully developed body through which it is capable of living a physical life. It then is a living, physical being of the many types we are all familiar with...such as a human, an animal, an insect, a plant, a lichen, etc. More highly developed energy intelligences build more highly developed bodies. Obviously a human being or a chimpanzee are operating at a higher level of awareness and independence than a geranium, for example. But a body is subject to injury, illness, aging and death. The intelligent energy that built that body and makes it alive is NOT subject to injury, illness, aging, and death. When a body is injured beyond repair or worn out the energy leaves it and the body rapidly decays. The body is literally built in the image of the intelligent energy (soul-mind) that informs it, permeates it, and surrounds it...but when the body becomes useless as a vehicle, then the energy departs from it. There is some scientific evidence to support that...in that there is a small, measurable decrease in body weight at the time of death which has been observed and recorded quite accurately. Why there would be such a change in weight I don't know (not knowing the exact nature of the mechanism involved), but it indicates the departure of the energy-soul-mind at that time. You can SEE the energy-soul-mind leave something when it dies...and then you just have an inert body lying there, devoid of life. What left it? Life, personality, emotion, thought, mind, will, desire, love, affection, reaction, passion....ALL those things we identify with life itself...and all those things are the soul which does not die. It's a highly organized, highly intelligent and purposeful energy, and it will build a new body as soon as it is ready to. People who are vehemently disbelieving in such things are so...not because they're being scientific or particularly rational about it...but merely because they're holding to an established set of beliefs and opinions that they are already comfortable and familiar with. Period. Everyone naturally defends the beliefs they are already holding against beliefs which contradict or add to those. It's human nature. Cruiser, not only do I believe in reincarnation, but it's as obvious to me at this point as the fact that sidewalks are normally made out of concrete or that frogs hop. That's because I'm familiar with the concept and accustomed to it. Your reaction is because you're not, I would assume. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Kim C Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:35 AM There are some things too incredible for our petty human minds to comprehend. When my friend Lisa's little girl was 3, she talked about her "other brother" and her "other grandpa." It freaked Lisa out. When I was very small, I was fascinated by pictures of Native Americans in one of my brother's books. It was as if I had known them. I can't explain that now. And sometimes you meet someone you've never met before, and it's like you've known them forever. I took to playing the violin very easily, as if I had done it before. One time when I was practicing, I got frustrated with the music, and the thought popped into my head, "that's not how I played it before." But it was a new piece, one I didn't know. I can't say with complete certaintty that I believe one way or the other, but I can say I certainly believe in the possibilities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM (There is some scientific evidence to support that...in that there is a small, measurable decrease in body weight at the time of death which has been observed and recorded quite accurately.) I am not sure this is true, LH -- there was at one time a scintific-sounding assertion to this effect, but it was debunked as having been acquired through highly subjective assessments. The experimenter was McDougall, and a brief essay on his experimental validity can be found at http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp. But the fact seems to be that there is no weight to consciousness and it is not energy in the usual sense, but an originator of and operator of energy. I doubt it weighs anything in itself, other than what it may decide to weigh! This is like expecting the driver of a car to have steel parts, if you see what I mean. Regards, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:15 PM Yeah, that sounds about the way I would see it too, Amos. It seems highly unlikely that consciousness would possess weight, and it is futile for debunkers to demand physical proof for that which is not physical in the first place...yet this is what they seem to want. Bizarre, when you think about it. Life cannot be described solely in terms of physicality. I think the great mystery that has eluded the reductionists is this: physical reality (as we perceive it) is an aftereffect of non-physical intelligently directed energy. And when you look at the physical very closely (at the subatomic level) you eventually find....there is nothing solid there at all, just whirling vortices of organized energy. The ghost built the body, not the other way around. And that is why the body dies, and passes away. It's a temporary, artificial construct. It's a mask, an appearance, an illusion. But we perceive it as solid and real as long as we are in it...and best of all, it allows us these glorious adventures in mortality and limitation. You can't have a good game unless you set rules and limitations. Your body is the piece, and life is the giant chessboard. When the game is over, you put the board away until the next game. You are the consciousness which invented the game, made the rules, built the board and the pieces, and continues to live long after the game is done. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:15 PM What I'd like to know is what compels me to read through these threads when I know they're going to churn my guts. I can't seem to stop myself. Was I Job in a previous existance? Is it that I unable to appreciate I have been allowed a view into a parallel plain where no matter how unsound the logic the inhabitants will gleefully run with it? Does the defination of science have an alternate here? So many questions, so little beer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:18 PM And why can't I type? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:20 PM Dear me..as my old man used to say "what a load of old boots!" Some people would believe anything. I have this bridge I'd like to sell...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM I suggest you not get too close to discussions like this one, Guest -- you're clearly locked into the Mud wing of the universe. Enjoy your time there. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:29 PM Amos always pulls that ad hominem thing Guest,. Your dad was right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM ..what compels me to read through these threads when I know they're going to churn my guts.. its your unconscious desire to digest the truth, BigpinkLad! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM Well, I didn't think the comment about Boots was exactly germane, reasoned, articulate or persuasive, Pink Lad. Did I miss some intelligence hidden deep in one of those boots? And let me add that it was his ad hominem remark which first derailed the discussion. If either of you have something articulate to add, please do! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM I may not be capable of articulating well ;o) My quest for the truth is sometimes ongoing, genuine and sometimes tortuous, but all I ever ask is for sound evidence and perhaps not to have to wade (again) through so much 1 + 1 = 8,000 stuff. And fewer insults when I disagree would be nice. (Not from this forum, in particular, generally you're all quite polite, even if you are completely mad ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ellenpoly Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM I just KNOW I've read this thread before! I tend to agree with Kendall on this one. If you choose to believe, or at least open yourself to the possibility of believing, so be it. Of course this is a lot easier if you've had some kind of experience that seems so familiar but you can find no explanation for it.(Personally, I've experienced this on more than one occasion, and haven't a clue as to what it means.) Little Hawk, you speak with such certainty because this is a part of your belief system. I only worry when you end sentences with "Period". It seems to be said with the kind of finality that brooks no opposition. I know that's not the case, and that you really like explaining at length how and why you have come to the conclusions you have. Being open-minded is sometimes being open to those who will never be able to agree with us. I hope that the people who read through here are doing so as much because it's a subject they find interesting, rather than a subject that they intensely dislike and resist so much that they must express only that...xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM My skepticism is born of vast experience of charlatans, liars and con artists. It is not negativism, I see it as dutiful and a positive counter to protect in some small measure those who are open to exploitation. That said, I have no problem at all with diverse viewpoints -- I think it's a bit unfair to suggest incredulity equates to closed-mindedness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM Ah, BPL, I did not mean to imply you were clos eminded -- my sarcasm was directed to Guest, who thought ridicule an appropriate submission. The history of charlatanism is enough to make anyone skeptical. No question, the great beauty of the phsyical universe is that it politely repeats itself exactly, and we can use that as a standard of proof. Great stuff for proving that gravity's acceleration in near-Earth tests is pretty consistently 9.8 m/s/s and that pi will always be 3.14 (or whatever the precise values are). The question of life force is an order of magnitude removed from these things, though, and is a lot trickier to categorize. Thought has no bounds the way a solid object has, it has no reason to comply with any constant rates of acceleration or density. It is wild-fire when it gets going and can change the rules as quick as you like. So it is a different problem altogether. Unfortunately sorting out the differences and similarities, and finding the cause of them, is a long pursuit. Be that as it may I have always found it a rewarding one. But the bottom line is that you must be true to what you yourself observe. Nothing else will do you much good. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Cruiser Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:27 PM Reincarnation? Dipwallow!!! (From the term coined(?) by the popular Little Hawk, and one of my favorite Mudcatters) Cruiser |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM Right, there ya go, Cruiser. Have a nice life, anyway, and when you find yourself looking down on your ex-body from thirty feet up, at the end, I promise not to be there to say anything snide, rude, or dismissive. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM But the bottom line is that you must be true to what you yourself observe I think this is one of the points upon which we differ, Amos. I would require you test your observation before putting it forward. I saw Santa in 1958 and in 1970 Jimi Hendrix winked at me from the poster on my bedroom wall ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Mudlark Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:51 PM I have a literal mind, I think...just listening to discussions about chaos and string theory churns MY stomach, and boggles my mind, and they are based, supposedly, in scientific thinking. Though agnostic in faith-based subjects I've certainly had a few unexplainable incidents that have left me marvelling at the mystery of it all. And I'm OK with that. None of us truly understand the workings of our own bodies, let alone that of the universe and beyond. Watching a school of fish, or a huge flock of blackbirds, all wheeling and turning in perfect formation, it's hard not to believe in collective consciousness. If only the Discovery Channel were able able to focus a wildlife camera back through time on small tribes of stoneage humans, the same patterns might be seen. I think our brains have just outgrown mind/body wisdom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:32 PM BPL: From your description, you know these were not true events (because you describe them as one would hallucinations); your integrity is not compromised when you are being true to what you really think and see. What YOU see may be truer than what some mis-firing circuit in the body "sees". It's when you start altering what you've observed for yourself in order to satisfy someone else that you start getting in to trouble. Or so it seems to me. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM OK, stop the play right there ... you've given up a good example of what I mean, Amos. You place an emphasis on the word 'you' by typing it in giant, important letters, juxtaposed with a purposely-demeaning use of quote marks around the word 'sees' and reinforced it with a second demeaning reference 'mis-firing circuit.' No fair. Try it in reverse: What you "see" may not be as true as that which the body sees. It's a bit mangled, but you see where I'm coming from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM Pardon me, BPL -- I wasn't trying to slip anything past you, but I was trying to embed an implication that who you are, ultimately is different than the brain and nerves you use to interact with the physical universe with. And the quotes around "see" was to point up a very important distinction between an electronic reaction and the actual seeing that goes a good deal further than just the optic nerve. The reference to a misfiring circuit was attributable to something you implied above, that for some reason you saw something happen which you knew was not true. Clearly, we are both saying that there are two kinds of "viewing" going on, and maybe our tussle is really over which is which. I do think that the true identity of You is worthy of capitals!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Kim C Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:42 PM As humans we want everything explained to us in real, physical terms that make sense to us - but not everything can be explained that way, and it's difficult to admit there are things far beyond our understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM Well, as I said, it's natural for people to defend their established view of reality...and search out whatever they can that will support it. May I repeat, for those who don't know, that my established view of reality from say grade 1 to about age 19 or 20 was this: There is no God, no soul, no ghosts, no afterlife, no spirit, no UFO's, no aliens, nothing like that whatsoever. All there is is physical reality, and you can find out about it strictly be following scientific procedure and investigating the empirical evidence. All that otherworldly stuff is superstitious nonsense, claptrap, and "old boots". :-) I was also the youngest kid I knew to begin disbelieving in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, and I totally rejected religion on principle. My parents were agnostics or atheists or something like that (meaning: they didn't think about stuff like that at all most of the time and didn't believe in it either). What changed me was this: actual experience! And I grew up in the process. That's my opinion about it. We all have our own perspective. Can you understand why I now take the glib assurance of literal-minded debunkers of all that strikes them as "unusual" with a grain of salt? It reminds me of myself when I was very young and very arrogant and not very well informed (in terms of actual experience)...but I had sure read a lot of science books and stuff like that. I loved hard facts when I was a kid the way some kids love candy. It made me feel smart knowing all that empirical stuff. I no longer let those conventional facts blind me to other less conventional matters. Human society in any historical epoch is convinced it has reality by the tail and can explain practically everything...when the truth is: they haven't even figured out half of it and are trapped inside their own chosen mythology. Our present mythology (that more money and manufactured goods will solve everything) is leading us towards utter disaster. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM I appreciate your intent to value the worth of people as highest, Amos. I share it. I believe, however, that we'd all be a lot better off if we eliminated sentiment from examination of the so-called imponderable. BTW, sorry for abducting your thread, LH ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:02 PM It's virtually impossible to eliminate sentiment...unless you are Mister Spock. :-) Sentiment occurs naturally in anyone who is capable of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM By the way, just how big and pink are you? :-) I ask that mostly because I am puzzled as to why anyone would pick such a nickname in the first place... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:05 PM Ah. Well there sentiment, and then there's perception. I agree that various mangled emotions have no place in rigorous examination of anything, but I do value perception especially for the examination of things which can't be too readily instrumented. It is also true that emotional experience in the moment, in the context of the actual moment, is perfectly reliable. The trouble starts when we start blending in carloads of emotional freight from past moments! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:06 PM Show me the sentiment here: 1x2=2 2x2=4 3x2=6 4x2=8 5x2=10 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ed. Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:09 PM I don't think that it's difficult to accept that many things are beyond our understanding. That's a given to anyone with reasonable intelligence. Science is the best way we have to explain the physical world, I think. Science makes no assumptions, and is happy to be proved wrong. It's not perfect, but it's done pretty well so far. Of course, I can't prove that when you die, you simply become dead, but it does seem highly likely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM Depends entirely on who reads it , I suppose. I don't get any rush of emotion on the subject of multiplication, myself. It could be a button for someone who suffered in grade school, I guess!! :>) But this is like saying show me the sentiment in a carburetor or a ball bearing. There isn't any. Nor have I ever asserted that material objects had any. Of course, some people get really thrilled over carburetors.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:13 PM Of course, I can't prove that when you die, you simply become dead, but it does seem highly likely Why? Because you feel like you are the same as the body? Even though you can see things it can't? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM "Show me the sentiment here: 1x2=2 2x2=4 3x2=6 4x2=8 5x2=10 " Sure, BPL. The sentiment in that post is as follows: Posting that made you feel good and secure, because it seemed to place you on firm and reliable ground in a way that no one could pick holes in...and that's why you chose to do it. You wanted to feel that way. Simple. Believe me, there is sentiment behind everything people do and say...which is not the same as to say that it explains everything. It doesn't. And neither does 2x2=4. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM Why? Because you feel like you are the same as the body? Even though you can see things it can't? If you subscribe to the view about mind and body being separate that might have some purchase. But if you don't, it becomes speculation based upon imagination. It's one of those can't be proven/disproven things isn't it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM Sentiment, LH. Show me the sentiment |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:32 PM Tell ya what, I can't argue with this sort of solidity; but if you practice meditation for a while you may find it lightens things up a bit. There's a lot of literature out there about the kind of experiences that people have had that can not be explained by any mind from brain theory. Go figger. In any case, BPL, I have enjoyed the conversation, so many thanks. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM You're welcome, Amos. Have I pissed you off or are you in a time zone where it's time to head out to the bar? ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:37 PM Oh, no!! It takes a lot more than conversation to piss me off, mate. Lots more!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM You have to have both life and consciousness within a body before that body's eyes can see anything. What are life and consciousness? Where did they come from? What are their dimensions and purposes? And where do they go? Those are the great questions asked by philosophers and spiritual teachers, and they are questions well worth asking. They are the crux of what life is about. You cannot quantify or measure life and consciousness, and you cannot produce them out of inert materials in a lab experiment. This doesn't mean they are not real, because we all know they are from direct experience. The same applies to love, fear, and hatred. We know them from direct experience, but we have no scientific means of measuring them or controlling them in any accurate fashion. It is because science is not capable of dealing with such matters that it prefers not to acknowledge them or deal with them, but they are the most vital things in life. Scientists (in general) fear what they cannot control. In that sense they are very much like most other people. Religious fundamentalists likewise fear what they cannot control. It's the same mindset, in fact. They can't control the UFO visits either, and they fear them most mightily...whether it's the science community or the religious fundamentalists or the military authorities. They're all jealously protecting their turf. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM I have to do some other stuff now, so carry on without me... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM If sentiment equates with emotion I agree that 5x2=10 doesn't elicit much of it. However,if I want to postulate that 5x2=80x1/8 and insist that it is as accurate as is your figure, you might change your moniker to TheBigHuffyRedFacedLad. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM Where is the sentiment in this statement: "I have a conscious awareness of having experienced other lifetimes besides this one." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:21 PM I've often thought how those who believe in something other than the body can reconcile their belief with the way the body can so easily destroy this other. I saw it happen to my father with a series of strokes. The man I knew changed into a man I didn't know and then into a human being who couldn't function. A complete personality and intelligence was destroyed until only the body was left. My father didn't exist anymore.I suppose those of faith will tell me he would be miraculously reconstructed on death so he could see himself from 30 feet above the body? And understand again what he was seeing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM It's not that he was destroyed (in my opinion only, you understand), it's that his body was damaged such that he could not express fully through it any longer. If you damage a radio a bit, you will get static when trying to tune in to the program. If you damage the radio a lot, you won't get any more program or any noise whatsoever from it. That does not mean that the program has been destroyed! It means that the radio has. But someone who didn't have a full understanding of what the radio's function is might well assume that the program itself had been destroyed when the radio stopped working. In fact that is what natives assumed when first confronted with such things. First they assumed that the radio was alive and that the sounds it produced were its own original voice or that it was a god of some kind. Then when it stopped working they assumed it was dead. People's general belief about physical death is entirely analogous to the radio example. The body is not the original source of the program, it's the medium through which the program broadcasts to others who are also in physical bodies. To reach physical eardrums you have got to use physical vibrations...via the vocal chords, if speaking. To reach physical eyes you have got to use visible light and shadow, and maybe color. And so it goes. I can just see a bunch of radios sitting around bemoaning the eventual death of the program when their circuits wear out. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:49 PM Except, of course, that the interface between life and body is a little different than the interface between the broadcaster and the radio set. A radio broadcast has to go through huge amplification to be intelligible to a radio, and be broadcast from a high tower. Contrariwise, a being operating a body has to step his output down considerably to get the body to behave properly. But generally, I like the analogy. We used to have an announcer in these parts named Kingsley who was very knowledgeable about classical music. So when the radio which was tuned to his station suddenly stopped playing the programs he was on (actually, the station had folded) we changed it to a different radio (well, sane radio basically, but tuned to a different frequency) and lo!! there was Kingsley broadcasting about classical music from the new radio!! Remarkable!! (I am aware this torques the analogy a little, but cut me a little slack). I have seen a man's face gradually become wholly unrecognizable as his brain succumbed to the rotting effect of advanced Parkinson's. The features slacken and the facial gestures vanish and the eyes dull. The body actually looks uninhabited -- nothing but habit left behind. And believe it or don't but we felt we were receiving a lot more of his actual communication and personality the day after he was declared dead than we had for the months prior when he was stuck to the body in a vegetative state. That's my .02 for what it's worth. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 01 May 04 - 07:53 AM I was with my father when he died. I held his hand, sat by the bed, and quietly sang to him some of the songs he loved and had taught me as a little girl. His face was grey, his eyes were closed, he was shrunken and looked unconscious. when I stopped singing, he ever so gently squeezed my hand and grunted. that was all the energy he had left, but i knew it was still him listening. anyone who has had an out of body experience knows that they can exist outside their body, they they do not need the body to remain conscious, to perceive. I wouldnt expect anyone who hasnt had that experience to believe it, however, don''t also expect that its not possible. it may happen to you some day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 04 - 08:13 AM Yes. My mother had an out-of-body experience when ill in hospital. My uncle Bill had one once when he had been ill for some time. They both described it in a very precise way, that they were able to look down on their own bodies (not dead, but vacated temporarily by their waking consciousness) and also observe the activities of the other people around them, and so on. They then described descending back into the body...and that it had been much more comfortable not to be in that sick body, but to be free of it. The body also has its own very simple, automatic life force which is not a thinking entity, but a sort of regulating system of energy that keeps things going. That part appears to simply disperse once the conscious soul permanently vacates the body and "cuts the chord", so to speak. In the case of my mother and my uncle, it was only a temporary stepping out of the body, not actual death. What you might call a "near-death" experience, I suppose. A dead body is a body that is, as Amos said, uninhabited...by the intelligent soul that used to inhabit it. Like an untended house or car it soon begins to fall apart...but much more quickly than an artificial item would, of course, because the cells decay by the usual biological processes (unless the body is frozen). Your body is a vehicle. You are the driver. And cars don't make people, people make cars. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,*daylia* Date: 01 May 04 - 08:50 AM Well up till a few weeks ago I was just as skeptical as anyone else about the subject of reincarnation. While I've always considered the idea of multiple lives a possibility, certainly I had no proof that was satisfactory to me until a talented "psychic" friend of mine gave me some information about my own "past lives". I was told that in my last incarnation I belonged to an important family about whom records have been definitely kept for centuries. I was lucky enough to have been given enough details about this person's life (and death) to check the story out historically. In all honesty, EVERY LITTLE DETAIL I WAS GIVEN ... including the colour of her mother's hair! .... "FITS" PERFECTLY THE HISTORICAL FACTS I FOUND ON-LINE AND ON SEVERAL GENEOLOGY SITES! There is absolutely no way my friend could have known these historical facts ... although the family was very prominent, the person I (in all likelihood) "was" died very young, was relatively obscure. One of the owners of the geneology sites I visited -- a learned and distinguished gentleman with "both feet on the ground" spiritually and extensive knowledge of that family and time period -- was curious about why some nobody from Canada would be asking such detailed questions about such an obscure individual. He'd been so helpful finding information and even translating the archived material that I swallowed my fears and told him my reasons. Well, he eMailed me back, telling me that in his opinion, my experience is valid, the story "good and interesting" and definitely worth further investigation. He's helping me with that, right now! Besides the historical verification, I have enough "personal anecdotes" about the influence of that lifetime on my current one to fill a book or two -- including quite the list of long-standing and mysterious fears and "tastes", interests, attitudes and talents - even the names I chose for my children! Anyway, maybe someday I'll write a book about it. Then again, maybe not. That's been done -- and s**t upon -- many times before, after all! But I just gotta ask .... if something like this happened to you, wouldn't you be just :-O about it too????? daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 01 May 04 - 08:55 AM Those who require evidence before giving serious consideration might like to consider this: If you know everything, then you know how much of it there is, but if you don't know everything then how are you to estimate the portion of it that you don't know? The portion you don't know might be most of it, for all you know. I think someone said something like "science has served us well so far..." What makes you think that? Science seems to work, as far as our limited requirements go, (or as far as its limitations allow us to require) but science might have led us miles down the garden path. It's done that to us before. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 01 May 04 - 08:56 AM write the book! write it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 04 - 09:00 AM Exactly. The leaders and authorities of any and all societies always think they know how pretty well everything works. You wait a century or two, and half the stuff they believed in gets discredited by the new set of "authorities". People are credulous and set in their ways. They resist change with the greatest tenacity, and they resist ideas they haven't already thought of themselves. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 01 May 04 - 09:46 AM well, I missed the beginning of this somehow. Probably just as well...*grin*.... I don't have the time or energy to get into it. Y'll know what I think anyway. Maybe I'll just go have a beer with the Big Pink Lad and wonder why all my extrasensory receptors don't work like some of youse guys. Maybe they were all shot off in my previous incarnation as cannon fodder in the Crimean war. carry on..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 04 - 10:48 AM If you do that, Bill, let me know what he looks like. I keep envisioning pink elephants for some reason... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: katlaughing Date: 01 May 04 - 02:29 PM makes me think of pink flamingos!**bg** Pat, thanks for the link. Great and interesting site. It is my belief that folks who are "out of it" due to a stroke, etc. are already visiting the "other side" while waiting for the body to give up or recover. Having a "walkabout" is the way I think of it. daylia, write the book! Two regressions went a long way in explaining certain things which have always been prominent in my life, this time around; specific things with relatives, talents, interests, and geography. Throughout the history of the Rosicrucian Order AMORC, there have been prominent philosophers and scientists who reconciled the metaphysical teachings, including that of reincarnation, with their various disciplines; they included : Da Vinci, Paracelsus, Boehme, Bacon, Descartes, Faraday, Pascal, Spinoza, Leibniz, Newton, Franklin and Jefferson. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 01 May 04 - 03:20 PM Moving their furniture out one piece at a time. Some people prefer to do it that way, it seems. Re: BPL, I keep thinking of something entirely more rude than either an elephant or a flamingo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 04 - 06:23 PM Yeah, well I thought of that too, Carol, but I didn't want to say it... :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: katlaughing Date: 01 May 04 - 07:23 PM Me, too, but i figure it wouldn't only be big at certain times, right?**bg** |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 01 May 04 - 08:16 PM but so pink.. what's pink and wrinkly and hangs out your trousers? your mum.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 01 May 04 - 08:17 PM meanwhile, back at the previous life.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 01 May 04 - 08:19 PM What a disturbing image. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 01 May 04 - 09:51 PM For some people the answer would be "Your stomach". Anyway, perhaps you guys were a bunch of lascivious dirty-minded schoolboys in a past life? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 01 May 04 - 09:55 PM I too think that reincarnation is bunkum. Where do we go when we die? Where does the light go when the bulb breaks? It doesn't go anywhere, it simply stops. I think the proponents of reincarnation are wishful thinkers who seize on second-hand stories and mystical-magical gobbledegook with an eagerness powered by the fear of death - a legitimate fear, but one which should not prompt us to confuse reason with hope. By the way I am not happy with the rubbish that the big pink lad is copping. This suggests to me that the same emotion which drives muddy thinking also drives sneers at anyone venturing to disagree. 'If you disagree with my belief in reincarnation, you are disagreeing with my right to another life, therefore I will attack you.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 01 May 04 - 10:01 PM It had to happen sooner or later, GUEST,Ooh-Aah, if not on this thread, then on another. A name like that one just begs for some sort of outrageous response. And LH did ask, and never got an answer. Personally, I couldn't care less whether or not TBPL believes in reincarnation, and I'm the one who turned the humor in that direction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 01 May 04 - 10:05 PM OooAhhh, I don't see there' s much connection between the silliness over Big Pink Lad's name -- which is pretty odd -- and the discussion about reincarnation. But of course, you may believe as you prefer. I doubt there is much conclusive evidence either way. So pick the superstition or opinion you prefer. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 01 May 04 - 10:36 PM The light doesn't "stop", my friend. It travels. Very fast. So does the soul. You cannot destroy energy, but you can move it around, that's for sure. When you slow the vibrating energy of which atoms are composed down some, it becomes what we perceive as a gaseous substance. Slow it down more and it becomes a liquid. Slow it even more and it becomes a solid. Speed it up greatly (by combustion, for example) and it moves in the other direction, and becomes gaseous substance, water vapour, light, and release of heat. Speed it up even more and it passes beyond the spectrum of visible light into spiritual energy or the pure energy of thought, which you cannot see, smell, taste, touch, or fathom. The only reason people fear death is because they don't remember what comes afterward. They are a broadcast program which fears its own extinction when a hand turns off the radio, because they imagine that they ARE the radio. What actually happens is: they are no longer trapped inside the radio. Everyone fears death, atheists and nonbelievers in reincarnation included...and they all deal with that fear in their own subjective manner. Most just run away from it by concentrating on ephemeral matters like: food, sex, pleasure, gossip, work, play, ambition, "success", war, competition, etc. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 01 May 04 - 11:11 PM so you die. life stops. there is nothing. absolutely nothing. is something perceiving that nothing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 01 May 04 - 11:49 PM Truthfully, I read TheBigPinkLad's name as addressing the misnomer of 'whiteness'. We whites are more pink than white. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 02 May 04 - 12:56 AM Whether there is nothing, or something, the perceiver is Thou. It happens along the line somewhere that you discover this perception is not dependent on forms, solids, or meat to occur. Some people make this break-away discovery in life, some in death. 'S no biggie. Be true to what you truly see for yourself. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 02 May 04 - 12:48 PM Sounds good to me, Amos! Kat, thanks for posting that information about the Rosicrucians and esoteric tradition ... interesting and concise too! And thank you both, freda and kat, for the encouragement to go ahead, speak my truth and write a book. Hmmmmmmm .... I'm finding that the experience of losing a lot, including one's very head (quite literally) a few times before can put a bit of a damper on one's motivation in this regard, however. So .... I'm working on clearing up some old, uh, "issues" around being known, about speaking my truth in public ... and then, when I'm free and clear .... LOOK OUT WORLD! It's gonna be no holds barred! ;-) daylia PS I confess I beheld the same inner vision of the BPL as alluded to above, from the very first time I saw his handle. And every time I've seen it thereafter. No matter how I try to restrain myself ... there it is ... this BIGPINKLADDDDD ... never mind ... Hey, maybe we've all fallen victim to the Laddie's Pink and Penile Para-Psychological Prying! Sounds like a job for a leprechaun ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 02 May 04 - 01:24 PM It's a bit rash to accuse Big Pink of Psychic Penile Projections when it may just be the predisposition of your suggestive recipient minds that have mysteriously been tuned up to make Plentiful Penile Pictures at the drop of a puerile prompt!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 02 May 04 - 01:29 PM Ok, Amos, what kinds of images does the name TheBigPinkLad conjure up for you? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 02 May 04 - 01:30 PM (I got the 100th, el ted, so forget about it) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: katlaughing Date: 02 May 04 - 01:30 PM I think BPL needs a {{{{{BIG HUG}}}}}}...he's being an awfully good sport it seems....:-) kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 02 May 04 - 02:07 PM Well, I am reminded of Baby Huey, or some creature from scifi who is human in all respects, but enormously tall. On the other hand, I have no scarcity of dangly bits in my life, being equipped with my own. Maybe that's the difference. Freud had some theory or other onthe subject... :>)) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 02 May 04 - 02:42 PM And I keep seeing pink elephants! But, yes, I suspect that BPL's name is simply an accurate description of his general skin tone...which, unlike Michael Jackson's, is not literally white. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,freda Date: 03 May 04 - 03:59 AM It is very beautiful over there.(Thomas Edison's last words before death - what had he seen?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ellenpoly Date: 03 May 04 - 03:59 AM "Everyone fears death, atheists and nonbelievers in reincarnation included." I don't, LH. I do think that a fear of death often drives people to need to find something after it to believe in. I also think that the idea of death being the end is too much for a species who has the capacity to remember. The need to feel that something or someone will be left to carry on one's name, or some kind of manisfestation of one's spirit seems of tremendous importance. If one lets go of fear, then it's easier to live in the present, and the very thought that there may very well be nothing after this life is a great inducement to live fully, love completely, and never assume we'll have a second chance..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 03 May 04 - 07:47 AM I don't fear death. 20 years ago I was contacted once by a close friend, just after she died in a car accident. I know there is life after death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: jacqui.c Date: 03 May 04 - 08:14 AM I don't fear being dead; but I don't look forward to the actual passage. It may be horrible, a stroke or being burned up in a fire. Anyway, to you non believers, how do you explain ghosts? Simply saying they don't exist is rubbish...they DO exist; I encountered one myself. Kendall |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 03 May 04 - 09:15 AM Me too, jacqui. Many times over. Some say dying is a piece of cake compared to being born. And maybe it is, comparing destinations ... Fear of death? Well, to be honest of course I'm afraid -- it's a big change after all, and changes are scary. It usually feels much more comfortable to stick with the familiar than to undergo major changes in one's Hey, it may be Auchswitz, but it's home! ;-) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 03 May 04 - 09:18 AM Oops that was supposed to read "It usually feels much more comfortable to stick with the familiar than to undergo major changes in one's mode d'etre". (way of being) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 10:00 AM What's remarkable is the number of people who do not end up being ghosts. I guess it takles a certain fixation due to trauma, or revenge-lust, or obsession with an individual or serious incomplete business of some sort. Most people seem to just make their farewells, and get on with their next transition. The actual passage (I hope) will be quick. After that I reckon on a grand adventure of some kind, just as now! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 03 May 04 - 10:07 AM ummmmmmmmmmm........... "further, deponent sayeth not." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 10:18 AM I predict a surprise, brother Bill, and I wish you joy of it. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 03 May 04 - 10:30 AM but not for a long while, hoipefully.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 04 - 11:06 AM Well, in a strictly theoretical sense, philosophically speaking, I don't fear death either, because I know I've died many times before and I'm still doing fine and it's even better in spirit than it is in a body anyway....BUT....if I barely avoid getting run over by a truck or falling off a high place, I get scared! So, it depends on how you look at it. :-) Like daylia said, we are attached to the familiar and find major changes that we weren't planning on to be disturbing... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 11:23 AM and find major changes that we weren't planning on to be disturbing... A spirit of adventure helps deal with it. It's not likely that things are going to stay "familiar" for very long. Especially considering that the rate of change is accelerating madly. When I died near the end of World War 2, fountain pens, Bakelite phones, 3-cent stamps, and Dewey decimal cardfiles were the height of onformation processing. Before this lifetime is out, I could easily be sending holographic agents to gather information from the far corners of the cyber universe and compose my shopping lists for me automatically...or perhaps just do the shopping. Just one example. Seventy years ago you could die from a rusty nail or a bad cat scratch. Twenty years forward you'll probably be able to grow new replacements any old piece of a body you need. Heinlein wrote a wonderful book toward the end of his life along this theme, in which a couple kept finding their universe being switched on them by (apparently) a malevolent deity. All I can say is change is not gonna go away, so some way to get used to it is pretty important. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 03 May 04 - 11:24 AM I was in a van, as passenger, driving back from a music festival on a very bumpy dirt road in the country. The van rolled as we turned a corner, I and my partner both had a seat belt on luckily as it turned right over, but as it was happening, and we were spinning through the air, I thought this was it. I found myself just watching, without any emotion at all, observing, as the landscape tumbled around us. when things happen suddenly, you never know how you'll respond. Another time i was walking home, late at night, past a park near my street. A car drove past me along the street. The guy in the car turned round and looked at me, and then stopped the car and reversed back the road at me. It was clear from the look on his face that he was coming for me, I felt totally flushed with fear, managed to run down a back street and hid behind a wheelie bin. it was a one way street, he couldnt see me, and off he went. two potentially dangerous situations, two reactions.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 11:28 AM I don't know. I think a lot of the jumpiness I have in this life is left over trauma from my manner of leaving the world in other lives. I know I have to work all of that out eventually, but if I had my druthers, I think I would like to go peacefully in my sleep this time around. Or at least peacefully, whether awake or asleep. Bill D., it's ok for us to see reality as we do, and it's also ok for you to see reality the way you do. Neither veiw really threatens the other in any way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: black walnut Date: 03 May 04 - 12:01 PM I do wonder sometimes if little children are more in tune with these mysteries. My youngest daughter used to have long daily conversations with her sister, who died 4 years before she was born. ~b.w. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 12:21 PM Sure, they are more in tune. They don't have hteir heads cluttered up yet with constraints on what they are supposed to see, allowed to think, or limits on what it is possible to do. They are l3eft with only the pure fire of the unlimited self, seeing what it can see, so talking to a departed friend is a lot easier. Give them a few years and education and collisions in the physical universe will beat it out of them. Not to wrry.... :>) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 03 May 04 - 01:24 PM I have very early memories- (Actually I think we all do. It's just that my family moved just enough to pin down when a certain event occurred) and I remember when I "knew" more. I no longer remember what it was but I do distinctly remember knowing more. Doesn't quite make sense to me now, though. :) I know a boy who is now about 16 years old; when he was around 2 years of age he would say things like "When I used to be a man". One of the things he said was that when he was a man he played guitar and sang. I once asked him why he stopped playing and he said, "They coldn't get me out of the airplane." One of the oddities about him was that at the age of 2, he sang very well- on pitch and with proper phrasing. His parents were well aware of people's startled comments. They said he'd been doing that since he was one year old. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 01:43 PM Extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof, and very careful investigations. As far as I know, no properly investigated reincarnation case has stood up to careful examination. And really, investigations by true believers don't count. They don't want to disprove it. ----- Aloha nui loa Mack: If you choose to believe that; be my guest. I suppose you never heard of the case at Duke University hanfled by Dr, Rhine, and had a book published about the previous life of a mid-western farmers wife that freamed of Ireland. She was hypnoticaly regressed, and gave rge name of her former life, the town she had lived in, and named the neighbors and family names. The book was titled "In Search Of Bridey Murphy" In the Tibetan Buddhist faith; advanced Lama (The Dali Lama for example) are stringently tested with a room full of similar objects, and the supposed Lama MUST identify the one object he owned in his previous incarnation. If you choose to dismiss the possibility of reincarnation; this belief id not doing you or anyone any good. Aloha nui loa Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 01:52 PM Extraordinary? As I mentioned upthread it is far more ordinary among humans at large to believe in a spiritual identity that transcends lifetimes than it is not to; those of us who hold to the view that matter is the most likely explanation of consciousness are in a dramatic minority. From an outside perspective the belief that awareness is born from molecules is a ridiculous superstition, kind of like believing that volcanic explosions are due to the wrath of the underground deities. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 03 May 04 - 01:58 PM I'm not a giant penis, although some seem to think it OK to suggest I am a big prick. I do not have a giant penis, although I can get one easily enough according to the SPAM I get in my mailbox. I am not a communist. I am not pink, I am, like all humans, a shade of brown. I do not see pink elephants, dead people or space ships even though I try really hard (no pun intended). None of your guesses as to the origins of my handle come close. Should I launch a new thread with a prize for the best guess? ;o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 02:01 PM My skepticism is born of vast experience of charlatans, liars and con artists. It is not negativism, I see it as dutiful and a positive counter to protect in some small measure those who are open to exploitation. That said, I have no problem at all with diverse viewpoints -- I think it's a bit unfair to suggest incredulity equates to closed-mindedness. ----- Aloha nui loa BPL Skepticism is proper until the hypnotist releases the series of questions and answers to and from the person being hypnoticaly regressed. The hypnotist MUST be specific in the questions being asked. Here is an example. Please tell me about a previous life. This is a terrible question to ask because the subconscious mind (Unihipili in Hawai'ian terminology) in an attempt to be helpful will pull a previous life at random from the akashic records (this is why there are 57 people walking around believeing they were once Cleopatra). Please tell me about YOUR previous life. By changing one word changes a vague question into a very specific question with only one answer. I do not put much credence in reports of reincarnation unless the data is released. Aloha nui loa Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 02:09 PM It's not that he was destroyed (in my opinion only, you understand), it's that his body was damaged such that he could not express fully through it any longer. If you damage a radio a bit, you will get static when trying to tune in to the program. If you damage the radio a lot, you won't get any more program or any noise whatsoever from it. That does not mean that the program has been destroyed! It means that the radio has. But someone who didn't have a full understanding of what the ----- Aloha nui loa Little Hawk; my brother. Very wise and accurate analogy there! Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 02:15 PM anyone who has had an out of body experience knows that they can exist outside their body, they they do not need the body to remain conscious, to perceive. ----- Aloha nui loa Freeya (appologies if I misspelled your name) I agree completely! I used to be exactly like Bill D (a convinced athiest) until I had an OBE while meditating. That OBE gave me confirmation of life after physical death, and gave me a spiritual awakening. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 02:26 PM By changing one word changes a vague question into a very specific question with only one answer. Well, maybe and maybe not. "Tell me about adults touching you" can come up with all kinds of plastic overlays of false memories produced inan effort to be cooperative. It depends greatly on how independent of mind the interrogee is. Otherwise they may well come up with something that is just a plastic dubbed in story designe dto satisfy a questioner. Detecting the differences is tricky, but not impossible, I suppose...For one thing for example, your assertions about what you remember are unsolicited, pretty much, and therefor emore likely to be your own than suggested by somneone else; but it is not a cut and dried thing. The plasticity of the average human mind is a very weird factor. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 02:27 PM Aloha nui loa LH; my brother. I was out of town April 22nd-26th to visit Michael F. You may or may not remember him from when we got together in Altanta last year. While I was around Atlanta; I also did some healings, and had the pleasure to visit a real haunted house that was so bad even the family's dog was afraid to do down stairs, so a friend and I went down there and cleansed the area. PM or E-Mail me and I will tell you more about it (if you are interested. Two Bears. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 02:35 PM I don't think you're a big prick, TBPL. But you do have a very evocative name, and as Amos has pointed out, my mind sometimes tends to dwell in the gutter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 02:37 PM What's remarkable is the number of people who do not end up being ghosts. I guess it takles a certain fixation due to trauma, or revenge-lust, or obsession with an individual or serious incomplete business of some sort. Most people seem to just make their farewells, and get on with their next transition. ----- Aloha nui loa Amos; my brother. Based on my experiences; ghosts fall into three categories. 1. They are either attached to possessions or a place, and not willing to let go and move on. 2. they died when they were sick (fevers, strokes, etc and are not aware they are dead. 3. They will not cross over to the realm of spirit for fear they will be punished (the Damnation and hell fire version of the afterlife in the "christian religion). Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 02:45 PM Interesting observation, Two Bears! I suppose anyone can get hung up under the right conditions. I'd be pretty reluctant to cross over if I thought a heavily judgemental patriarch was waiting to weigh out all my sins, knowing and unknowing, and adjudicate my eternal fate in the manner described by some preachers!! Brrrr! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Wolfgang Date: 03 May 04 - 02:54 PM No one can say they have the answer because no one really knows (Kendall) The true believers can as they show here: That OBE gave me confirmation of life after physical death. as obvious to me at this point as the fact that sidewalks are normally made out of concrete or that frogs hop anyone who has had an out of body experience knows that they can exist outside their body I know I've died many times before I know there is life after death. I'm often wondering why people who wouldn't readily believe Fox News read Whitley Strieber and skip all usual caution. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 02:55 PM On two occassions, I've encountered ghosts who were waiting for someone just before they (the ghosts) were killed. They didn't understand that they were dead, or at least they were confused about whether or not they were still in a body, and they thought they needed to stay where they were until the people they were waiting for showed up. I've encountered quite a few ghosts over the years, and my experience has been that when things are sufficiently explained to them, they usually go where they belong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 02:57 PM For some of us, Wolfgang, it's not so much belief, as it is being willing to trust our own perceptions more than we are willing to trust what someone else tells us our perceptions ought to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 03:10 PM Carol has hit it most concisely. I wouldn't buy Strieber's package of ocnclusions, but I can readily enough accept that he saw what he saw; why he saw it is another issue. Of course it is perfectly possible that what he saw was "stress-induced delusion" but I see no need to jump to that conclusion. Scientific protocol is wonderful stuff, but so is personal integrity, by which I mean knowing you have seen what you saw. There is little or no conflict between the two. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 03 May 04 - 03:18 PM BPL, let me guess: You are a big man and in the privacy of your own home you like to wear a tutu? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: open mike Date: 03 May 04 - 03:22 PM Jimi Hendrix winked at me from the poster on my bedroom wall ;o) You, too??!! I thought i was the only one!! it was in the living room, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Wolfgang Date: 03 May 04 - 03:31 PM No one is telling anybody what a perception ought to be, but perception is a construction from the input and preconceptions and and and... I wonder why some post here as if it was news to them that perception can and has been fooled. Never heard of phantom limbs, for instance? Tell these people 'if it feels real it is real' and wait for their response. personal integrity, by which I mean knowing you have seen what you saw Hm, I know what I saw in the sense that I usually remember what my percept was but I don't know for sure in all conditions that what I saw was what could have be seen under better conditions. Don't tell me you have never been fooled even for a long time by your senses. That has nothing at all to do with integrity or lack of. OBEs can be induced by electrical stimulation of a subsystem of the brain. Yes, and there are people who have had a subjectively impressing OBE and have not come to Two bears' conclusion. Kendall's wise words apply again. The same perception can lead to different ideas about a possible explanation. But I see a lot of close-mindedness here. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 04 - 04:00 PM Most people are close-minded about some things...usually because they don't know enough yet about those things or are carrying a strong prejudice concerning them. But as Carol said " it's not so much belief, as it is being willing to trust our own perceptions more than we are willing to trust what someone else tells us our perceptions ought to be." I trust my own perceptions, Wolfgang, more than I trust what you decide to tell me about them. And I am an exceedingly cautious person. I was cautious enough not to believe in God or anything else "otherworldly" (except Santa Claus for about 3 or 4 years when very young) until I was around 20 years old. This came of growing up in a very rational, scientifically-minded, atheistic family...that in their own way were: closeminded. And in case you're wondering, I never experienced a dramatic "conversion" to any religion, never got "saved" (to use the evangelical term, nothing like that. No, I just gradually opened up to an awareness of many things that I had not been prepared to open up to when I was younger, when I thought I knew everything...or that if I didn't know it, then I could find it in a science book or an encyclopedia. I started trusted myself, Wolfgang, instead of letting other authoritative sources in the World decide it all for me. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 04:19 PM I can only speak for myself, Wolfgang, but it really isn't very important to me whether or not what I perceive is what anyone besides me can accept (or can prove). I like my perceptions the way they are. They are pleasing to me and they seem to serve me well, and that's all that really matters to me. You are free to experience your life in whatever way suits you best. I am free to experience my life in whatever way suits me best. Seems to me, that's all that really matters. The way I see it, all of reality is an illusion anyway, and that includes everything that people tend to regard as "impirical" or "scientifically proven". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 04:20 PM Wolfgang: I am perfectly open to the possibility that an apparent OBE is illusory. But I am required by my sense of integrity not to assume my perceptions were other than I saw them to be, at the time; if adding more data in a good scientific sense, modifies that, well, so be it -- any model should be open to change. What a dull life it would be if I thought any model was comlete and unchangeable. I have seen enough instances of apparent violations of the "bag of skin seperate from all others" model of human nature that I am pretty sure it is flawed. If a bunch of other individuals believe I am wrong, I am open to their explanation as to why, if they have ojne that is not authoritarian. So I don't think I am close-minded. Stimulation of a brain segment producing an OOB experience is one paper I have not read -- do have easy access to the name of it or where it could be found? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 04 - 05:02 PM I'm sure there are ways of artificially stimulating a brain to have a certain perceptual experience. There is another way to so stimulate a brain that is not artificial...and that is by actually having the real experience! The existence of the former simulated method "in the lab" does not invalidate the existence of the latter actual experience "in the field". Yes, you can fool a person into thinking they are seeing a UFO or a ghost. You can also fool them into thinking they are going to win a lottery or anything else. But what if they really do see the UFO (alien vehicle), or the ghost, or whatever...? That doesn't invalidate the time when they were fooled, nor does the time when they were fooled invalidate the time when it really happened. It's "all or nothing" thinking that tends to obfuscate these discussions...and that is driven by a desire to preserve a chosen belief rather than a desire to discover the truth about anything. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: open mike Date: 03 May 04 - 05:20 PM I am trying to absorb all the posts in this thread.. or at least digest them, but I am over whelmed! There are more than enough ideas here to keep the philosphers of the world busy for eons! I do think of the way the Bahai faith describes the different stages of pre-life, life, and post-life: I once had it described to me thusly: in the womb, we are growing arms, legs, eyes, etc. for which the uses are to us yet unknown. This is similar for attributes which we acquire during life...spiritual qualities which we gain during our stay on this planet: love, understanding, caring, knowledge, etc. which will be able to be used by us when no longer in the body. The difference as described to me by the Bahai Faith, is that each soul or spirit is an individual entity, and whil continue to progress after life here, and there is no need to re-live live on this plane, but we will continue to journey towards "energy" or divine or whatever you may call it. We cannot know the full story from our small place. We can only touch the hem of the garment... only be aware of a small portion of the truth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 04 - 05:24 PM The Bahais are wonderful people with a wonderful faith, and philosophy is a grand subject that knows no borders. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 03 May 04 - 05:32 PM "I predict a surprise, brother Bill, and I wish you joy of it." ah, yes...I have no doubt that several of you who have had these 'experiences' DO wish me well and consider me sane, honest and a generally good guy, as I do you.. *smile* I do have a mostly different notion of what subjective experiences may be caused by...and of course, I 'may' be wrong....but sadly, though I would be willing to bet about reincarnation, I could never collect if I win...*wry grin*....I don't even get to say "I told you so" if I'm right. Whereas, if YOU are right, you get to tease me unmercifully forever! There just ain't no justice! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 06:16 PM Well, you could just change your mind, Bill. LOL!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 06:32 PM We won't tease you, Bill. Promise ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 06:35 PM Interesting observation, Two Bears! I suppose anyone can get hung up under the right conditions. I'd be pretty reluctant to cross over if I thought a heavily judgemental patriarch was waiting to weigh out all my sins, knowing and unknowing, and adjudicate my eternal fate in the manner described by some preachers!! ---- Only reporting what I have come across. I have assisted many spirits cross over, and many of them reported they were terrified they would be punished if they crossed over. On these cases; I send mana loa to the entity until they raise their consciousness enough to see the family or friends waiting to take them home and then they are happy to cross over. It't one thing for me a stranger to say "trust me", and it's another thing to hear the same confirmation from their grandmother, an grandfather, their spouse, etc to tell them everything is OK. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 04 - 06:38 PM My opinion about this is that the only harsh judgement waiting in the afterlife for people is the judgement they mete out on themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 06:44 PM ah, yes...I have no doubt that several of you who have had these 'experiences' DO wish me well and consider me sane, honest and a generally good guy, as I do you.. *smile* ----- Of course I wish you well, and consider you sane. I used to be exactly like you. It took an OBE to show me there is more to life than we have been lead to believe. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 03 May 04 - 06:54 PM Yes, and there's more to push-up bras than we've been led to believe too! (sorry, couldn't resist...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 03 May 04 - 07:40 PM Reading this thread, most support for reincarnation comes from subjective experiences, with no shred of independent empirical evidence offered. Because this is true, we skeptics are placed in the very awkward position of having to doubt either people's word or the validity of their experiences to maintain our position. A kind of unspoken emotional blackmail is going on; 'My evidence for reincarnation is that it happened to me (or someone I know/read of); therefore if you disbelieve in reincarnation you are calling me a liar or a fool, and I have the right to get very upset.' To diffuse this emotional bomb INDEPENDENT empirical evidence is vital, and reincarnationists are offering none. Books about incarnation are written by beleivers for beleivers and are not trustworthy. You will find that most skeptics would not venture to contibute to a thread like this exactly because it involves the potential insulting of people they otherwise like. Personal anecdotes about reicarnation (and that is all there is) are therefore met by silence from skeptics and eager, uncritical agreement from the faithful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 03 May 04 - 07:49 PM going on; 'My evidence for reincarnation is that it happened to me (or someone I know/read of); therefore if you disbelieve in reincarnation you are calling me a liar or a fool, and I have the right to get very upset.' To diffuse this emotional bomb ---- That may be true for SOME people; but I do not care if people believe me or not. It is egotistical for me to assume people had the same or similar experiences. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 07:50 PM Seeing as how this thread is a conversation between people who are sharing what they consider to be personal experiences and/or things they believe in, why would people who don't believe this stuff feel a need to come in and comment anyway? Just so you can rain on our parade? What's the point of that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 08:02 PM You raise a hard problem, there, oohah -- namely, the desire for independent and empirical evidence for a phenomenon that seems to be the essence of subjectivity itself -- the spatial definition of Being. Additionally, it is possible that you are asking to put material processes to work on immaterial phenomena, which is doubly difficult. But ya know, Bill D has a perfectly workable "friendly skeptic" approach. He speaks for himself and doesn't say anything ad hominem against others, and is respected by all, since he is perfectly friendly. There is no need for skepticism to be upsetting to others, unless you wish to enforce it as the only reasonable path.. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine Date: 03 May 04 - 08:45 PM I have no personal experience with previous lives, I have arrived at my current beliefs (or I should say strong suspicions) through research and common sense. That we live through several successive life-experiences learning and growing as we go is the most rational explanation for it all that I have come accross. Having said that, both my children were born with a wisdom in their eyes so deep it was intimidating. I don't believe it was a trick of the light, I believe it was true wisdom, which has since been at least partially smothered by education. BigPinkLad, I suspect your name may result from your having lived or perhaps been born in the house in the Overlook Mountains, NY, where The Band developed and recording much of the material for their 1967 album "Music From Big Pink" What say you to that, my man? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 08:47 PM It sure works for me, JohnO! It may not be empirical, but it tellingly real and indelibly human. (I mean the first part, not your guess about BPL, about which I have no opinion...) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 03 May 04 - 09:18 PM I believe it was true wisdom, which has since been at least partially smothered by education I love that statement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 09:39 PM I think every parent mourns that same suffering and loss that a child goes through to engage with Terran life. It costs so much in pure personal power. But it would be hard to risk not doing it, either. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 03 May 04 - 10:08 PM Exactly, Amos. I'm all for skepticism ... in my experience it's the safest, healthiest approach to matters metaphyical anyway. Especially for the novice! Regarding "empirical evidence" - as I mentioned above, a few weeks ago a talented psychic healer and friend of mine (ok ok it was Two Bears, and he is just AWESOME at what he does thank you so much my friend!) gave me some details about about my own previous incarnations. I know I am very fortunate that historical records have been kept for centures about the family I belonged to last time around. The way my skeptical Western mind works, even though I've come to trust my friend's remarkable abilities (I've seen him be right so many times I have no choice anymore!) I simply could not have accepted any of his story as truth unless I could somehow physically prove or disprove at least some of it for myself. So, much to his surprise I started working on doing just that, and came up with .... Fact: Online research proved without a doubt that the person I allegedly "was" did indeed exist historically (even though her "branch" of that family has been extinct for a couple hundred years now); Fact: she lived and died exactly when and where and in the manner he'd "seen"; Fact: any information/records specifically about her are not only very difficult to find but written in C17 German. This proves to me that even if my friend was lying or trying to deceive me (which I very much doubt) he could not possibly have known anything about her anyway. I doubt anyone else on the planet has ever heard of her, except for the present-day family members who own those geneology sites. Fact: I have a list of personal anecdotes as long as my arm which support the theory. I even gave one of my sons her name 22 years ago! (male version of course) As a child I remember wishing I could have named myself, just so I could have called myself that name! I was sure I'd been "named wrong" somehow ... My other son's name reflects her Scandinavian roots. I always loved those names, was never sure why until now. The names threw my family for a bit of a loop. They are not "family names", and there is absolutely no Scandinavian DNA on any side of the (current) family tree. Anyway, these facts are among many more, plenty "empirical" enough to satisfy this particular mortal mind, this time around anyway. If they don't satisfy Bill's or Wolfgang's or the Big Pink Lad's or anyone else's, that's only to be expected. And even if someone reads this and does "believe", is there any real benefit in that "belief" until it's backed up by personal experience??? In other words, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm just enjoying the practice of honestly sharing my experiences and theories in public. IT's therapy, in a way. So thanks to Mudcat for the venue to do just that, and thank you all so much for the excellent dialogue! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Augie Date: 03 May 04 - 10:11 PM If you had asked me 20 or so years ago,I would have told you that reincarnation was a crock. My beliefs have evolved considerably since then, not in the least because of my last child who, when being teased at age 2 by her 9&10 year old siblings about being the youngest,responded that they both knew very well that she was older but,as they all sat in what she termed "the baby bin", waiting to (her words) "come back down here",they both had agreed to return first so she could continue "gettting ready".When I asked why she needed more time she said because "it was so difficult when I was here the last time".At the time I thought the oddest thing about this was that a two yr. old would use the word "difficult".Sometimes I still wonder if she isn't older than I am as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 03 May 04 - 10:14 PM Daylia: I hope you will take the time to write up exactly what you went through to discover the verifications you did, in as much detail as possible, and get it distributed so it doesn't get lost. For one thing it sounds persuasive and beyond the range of "coincidence". For another, I think Two Bears should have a copy. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Kim C Date: 04 May 04 - 02:07 PM This has been a remarkably civil discussion, and I am glad to see it. Ooh-Aah, not everything has empirical evidence attached to it. It just doesn't. That's just the way it is. Get used to it. Before Mister's grandmother died a couple of years ago, she began talking about people who'd been dead a long time - her sister, her husband - as if she'd just talked to them yesterday. I am given to understand this isn't a rare occurrence among the dying. One could ascribe it to dementia, the side effects of medications, etc. - but how do we know she didn't really see and talk to these people? Perhaps they were trying to ease her into her own passage. She was a stubborn old bat and probably needed a little coaxing. Mister also told me that years ago, after his grandfather died, he saw him standing at the foot of his bed, just for a moment. Didn't say anything to him, just looked, as if he was getting one last glimpse of his grandson. I have heard other similar stories from people who have lost a loved one. My friend Joe told me that he AND his now-ex-wife BOTH saw their friend Steve after he had died from a terminal illness. My father was ready to go, and we had no unfinished business between us, so I am not surprised that I haven't seen him. I did dream about him once, though. I dreamed he came to visit me, and he told me that I had to be responsible for my decisions. There have also been a couple of incidents where I was sure he was looking out for me. My friend Sheila died from pancreatic cancer at the age of 43. The week after her funeral, I was getting ready to leave the office at the end of the day, and suddenly I smelled roses. The scent was only in my cubicle, and nowhere else. I looked around to see if someone had gotten a flower delivery or something - not a flower to be found in the whole office. This hasn't happened before, or since. Sheila was very fond of roses. LH, let me know if you ever get down to Tennessee, so I can buy you a beer or other beverage of your choice. I like your philosophies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 04 May 04 - 02:49 PM Amos, your affirming comments and (rather timely) practical suggestions are much appreciated. You're right - I do need to organize this ever-growing "empirical" mess of hand-scribbled notes, correspondences, bookmarked webpages, personal documents etc I've created / accumulated doing this research over the last few weeks. *sigh* Practicalities? Organizing? Oh woe is me ....*heavier sigh* I'd much rather be orga ... oh stop it ... Hey!! Has my Higher Power been telling you my secrets or something???? :-) daylia PS Kim I enjoyed your stories! And thanks for the reminder to get right out there and smell them roses ... then I'll get all organized I promise oh yes I will oh yes indeed .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 04 May 04 - 10:05 PM Hey, Kim, thanks! Will do. I might get down to Tennessee one of these days to visit Two Bears. He lives near Nashville. I'm not into alcoholic beverages in any big way, but I guess I could think of something. I had great spareribs in Atlanta one time with Two Bears and some of his friends. They were astoundingly good ribs as a matter of fact. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Dave the Gnome Date: 05 May 04 - 10:37 AM Nice thread with some good points. But what do I know...;-) Consider this. Nothing in the world, or even universe, is ever created or destroyed. All matter is simply changed from one form to another. I believe there is some scientific evidence for this viewpoint. So, if this is the case, surely all matter is simply recycled isn't it? It is simply a matter of course that the matter that was once part of a person becomes the matter that is part of another. Does this not give at least some scientific basis for reincarnation? What part of that matter brings any memories with it, and how, is another argument altogether. As to matters of faith. Well, I have faith in my own judgement. Does that mean that my judgement is suspect in some way as faith cannot be subject to scientific proof? So. I believe in reincarnation. I have faith. Does this make me religious in any way? Answers on a postcard please... Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Kim C Date: 05 May 04 - 11:26 AM Well then, LH, I'll fix you some tea. :-) Two Bears, where do you live? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 05 May 04 - 12:54 PM Before Mister's grandmother died a couple of years ago, she began talking about people who'd been dead a long time - her sister, her ----- Aloha nui loa Not unusual at all. In Hawai'ian vernacular; there are 10 components of a human being. Three selves (three levels of consciousness) Uhane, Unihipili, and Aumakua. Three voltages of mana (life force) four bodies (three aka bodies for the three selves, and the kino kanaka (physical body) Only the kino kanaka dies. the others continue. ----- Mister also told me that years ago, after his grandfather died, he saw him standing at the foot of his bed, just for a moment. Didn't say anything to him, just looked, as if he was getting one last glimpse of his grandson. ----- There have been many similar incidents. ----- us, so I am not surprised that I haven't seen him. I did dream about him once, though. I dreamed he came to visit me, and he told me that ----- If you dreamed of him; he has crossed over to the realm od spirit. ---- week after her funeral, I was getting ready to leave the office at the end of the day, and suddenly I smelled roses. The scent was only in my cubicle, and nowhere else. I looked around to see if someone ----- You had a visitation from beyond. ----- LH, let me know if you ever get down to Tennessee, so I can buy you a beer or other beverage of your choice. I like your philosophies. ----- LH lives in Canada; but I live in tenessee (about 25 miles East of Nashville. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 05 May 04 - 01:00 PM Hey, Kim, thanks! Will do. I might get down to Tennessee one of these days to visit Two Bears. He lives near Nashville. I'm not into alcoholic beverages in any big way, but I guess I could think of something. I had great spareribs in Atlanta one time with Two Bears and some of his friends. They were astoundingly good ribs as a matter of fact. ----- LH: Well if you aren't into alcoholic beveragesl then Kin could take me out for a strawberry daquri. ;-) I'm very glad you enjoyed the ribs. I very much enjoyed my barbeque at The Rib Ranch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 05 May 04 - 01:03 PM Kim: I live in a little town called Mount Juliet. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 05 May 04 - 01:06 PM I'd go for a strawberry dacquiri too. I like sweet drinks, and that sounds really good. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 05 May 04 - 05:05 PM I'd go for a strawberry dacquiri too. I like sweet drinks, and that sounds really good. :-) ----- I think they are the best drink around. My next favorite is a screwdriver (vodka and orange juice), and my next favorite is rum and coca cola. Margaritas and bloody mary's did nothing for me. Two Beara |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Wolfgang Date: 06 May 04 - 08:51 AM Most people are close-minded about some things...usually because they don't know enough yet about those things (Little Hawk) I agree here wholeheartedly. There is another way to so stimulate a brain that is not artificial (Little Hawk) Sure, several, if one knows about that field and is not close-minded before having studied the possibilities: hypnopompic dreams, sleep deprivation, drug effects, brain tumor, meditation, hyperventilation, etc (among etc. I also count actual astral travel) What a dull life it would be if I thought any model was comlete and unchangeable. (Amos) I agree wholeheartedly. That's the fascination of my job: Never be contented with the present thinking. Wanting to know more. Looking behind the surface. I'm not so easily pleased with my perceptions. Seeing as how this thread is a conversation between people who are sharing what they consider to be personal experiences and/or things they believe in, why would people who don't believe this stuff feel a need to come in and comment anyway? Just so you can rain on our parade? (Carol) Carol, don't play silly. When has ever in Mudcat any thread been left alone to one point of view (please let this thread be only for those wanting to share stories how awful Arabs/.../.../.../... are)? And then, go up and read the first post again. Little Hawk has posted a link and said: Check it out, and not 'please post only confirming experiences'. Checking it out, that's exactly what I do. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 06 May 04 - 01:33 PM Fair enough, Wolfgang. This thread has certainly attracted a lot of response. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Kim C Date: 06 May 04 - 01:47 PM Two Bears, I am in Antioch ---- Mt. Juliet is about 3 exits east of me off 40. How about that!!!!! I had no doubts that my father had crossed over. He was ready to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 06 May 04 - 03:51 PM I wasn't talking to you, Wolfgang, although I guess I didn't do a very good job of making that clear. I was responding to this post from GUEST,Ooh-Aah. If s/he feels like s/he's being victimized because s/he can't control the way the conversation is being conducted, maybe s/he would be happier not participating in the discussion: Reading this thread, most support for reincarnation comes from subjective experiences, with no shred of independent empirical evidence offered. Because this is true, we skeptics are placed in the very awkward position of having to doubt either people's word or the validity of their experiences to maintain our position. A kind of unspoken emotional blackmail is going on; 'My evidence for reincarnation is that it happened to me (or someone I know/read of); therefore if you disbelieve in reincarnation you are calling me a liar or a fool, and I have the right to get very upset.' To diffuse this emotional bomb INDEPENDENT empirical evidence is vital, and reincarnationists are offering none. Books about incarnation are written by beleivers for beleivers and are not trustworthy. You will find that most skeptics would not venture to contibute to a thread like this exactly because it involves the potential insulting of people they otherwise like. Personal anecdotes about reicarnation (and that is all there is) are therefore met by silence from skeptics and eager, uncritical agreement from the faithful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 06 May 04 - 05:10 PM Aloha nui loa Carol; my sister. Some may become cricical because of skeptics questioning their first hand experiences. I do not care if someone calls me a liar or doubts by veracity; because 30 years ago I would have had a difficult time accepting reincarnation as fact. When you experience things first-hand; it changes you. When Daylia asked me to tell her something about her previous incarnation; I scanned her to get her energy signature, then I scanned back in time to find the same energy signature. After I found the energy signature; I tuned into that signature, and viewed that life clairvoyantly, and then told Daylia what I saw with zero information in advance. I told her which century the previous life was in, her age when she died. that she was close to the royalty of Norway, the color of her mothers (in that lifetime) hair, and what I told her was more than 90% dead on target and much more data. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 06 May 04 - 05:20 PM Uh Two Bears grrrr GRRRRR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 06 May 04 - 05:21 PM Yeah, nothing convinces like direct experience, but that doesn't mean it can (or should) convince anyone else...unless they know you very well and have a great deal of confidence in your judgement. It's like some born-again Christian telling me about how he was "saved" and urging me to join his church and get saved too. Well, obviously he had what for him was a meaningful experience, but to me it's just a story from someone who could be partly right, partly wrong, or entirely wrong. In such cases, I look to my own gut feeling as the only indicator I can really go on...since there is no viable means of seeking what is termed "empirical evidence" about it. One other thing, though...I would observe that person over a peroid of time and see what his general conduct indicated too...as that is a sort of evidence worth considering. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 06 May 04 - 05:26 PM Hi Two Bears. I'm having difficulty determining whether you are under the impression that I am criticizing people who believe in reincarnation, or if you are just saying that you are aware that some people criticize people who believe in it. In case you got the impression that I am one of the people who are criticizing people who believe in it, I am not. What you may be seeing that could have given you that impression is the quote I put in my last post that was from someone else who posted to this thread. As for my own experience in this regard, I have conscious memories of some of my other lifetimes. I have no reason to doubt these memories. Little Hawk knows a lot about where I'm coming from, spiritually, so you can ask him about it if you want. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 07 May 04 - 08:56 AM Carol, I hope we'll get to meet someday! This little poem is by Rumi (classic Sufi poet and mystic). I found it in a book by Hazrat Inayat Khan called The Music of Life. It seems to fit in here quite well ... I died as a mineral, and rose a plant, I died as a plant, and rose again an animal, I died as an animal, and rose a man. Why then should I fear to become less by dying? I shall die once again as a man, To rise an angel, perfect from head to foot. Again, when I suffer dissolution as an angel, I shall become what passes the conception of man. A mineral??? Maybe that's why I can be so rock-headed at times! A plant??? Well I just bet I produced more than a few big beautiful sparkling sticky sensi buds ... then in my next life I probably came back as a deer and ate 'em .... ;-) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Wolfgang Date: 07 May 04 - 10:12 AM Sorry, Carol, I had no doubts you did mean (at least among others) me. I acknowledge I was wrong. I did forget another reason that can lead to OBEs: hypoxia Personal experiences are truly very convincing (for me, for instance, to see a good conjurer close up doing things I considered impossible) and they are real in one sense of the word. But all of our perception and experience is also (beside the objective input) an interpretation that is malleable. So I usually (one exception: vivid memories of experiences that never have happened can be induced under certain conditions) do not question the experience as such but the subjective interpretation given to it. There's more than one interpretation to your very real experiences. (But that requires a bit of open-mindedness.) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 07 May 04 - 11:09 AM Thanks, daylia. That would be great. It could happen since JtS has a lot of family in Ontario. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 07 May 04 - 11:19 AM In such cases, I look to my own gut feeling as the only indicator I can really go on... (LH) "Gut feelings" can be useful personal "indicators". That depends on the person's ability to accurately (and honestly) interpret exactly what it is their "gut" is "indicating". ... since there is no viable means of seeking what is termed "empirical evidence" about it. My own recent experiences suggest that while these "viable means" of seeking evidence are very uncommon, they do occasionally present themselves. I did forget another reason that can lead to OBEs: hypoxia (Wolfgang) Yes. That's why there's so many reports of "near-death experiences". As physical energy and awareness decrease due to the lack of oxygen, non-physical (by that I mean emotional, mental, intuitive and spiritual) energy and consciousness (awareness) increases. There's more than one interpretation to your very real experiences. (But that requires a bit of open-mindedness.) Hypoxia is certainly the "trigger" a lot of people report, that most - but certainly not all - people even seem to require to have an OBE. "Triggers" and "interpretations" are quite different things, however. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 07 May 04 - 11:54 AM There's more than one interpretation to your very real experiences. (But that requires a bit of open-mindedness.) I guess everyone picks and chooses what they're willing to be open-minded about. It also requires a bit of open-mindedness to consider the possibility that OBE are exactly that... experiences in which the consciousness is not in the body. I know that I certainly am not open-minded to every possibility (at least not at this time in my journey through life). For instance, I know that I am not open-minded about the idea of engaging in sex with other women. It's ok for anyone else who wants that experience, but it's not for me. But I am very open-minded about having the experience of accepting (without empirical evidence other than that of my own perceptions) the possibility that consciousness is not dependent upon having a physical body in which to reside. But as I said before, as far as I'm concerned, all of physical reality is an illusion, including everything that can be "proven" through "empirical evidence" and the "scientific method". It's just that, from my perspective, for reasons of our own, we pick and choose which aspects of the illusion we want to embrace or experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 07 May 04 - 12:21 PM I just thought of a good way to explain how things work inside my own thought processes... When I was a child, all of the "empirical evidence" at my disposal "proved" the existance of Santa Clause. All of the authority figures in my world insisted that he existed. In fact the entire culture of the society in which I found myself, insisted that he existed. I saw him with my own eyes many times as a child, in department stores, on TV, in books, etc. The experience was repeatable and predictable... evidence of his existance was found under the Christmas tree every year. Without fail. Every year, the cookies and milk that we left out for him on Christmas Eve were gone on Christmas morning. The authority figures in my world insisted that they did not eat the cookies and milk, and that the presents under the tree were from Santa Clause. But when I was about seven years old, my intuition told me that there was no such thing as Santa Clause. It turns out that my intuition was right. Since that time, my intuition has turned out to be right in quite a few situations in which most, if not all, of the empirical evidence pointed one way, my intuition pointed another. So I have every incentive to trust my intuition about things and to not trust people who tell me I should not trust my intuition, and no incentive to do otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 07 May 04 - 12:39 PM Yep...just like Iraqi WMD's and card-carrying Communists in Congress and the State Department (as Joe McCarthy asserted)...Santa Claus did not exist! Always trust your own instincts on this kind of stuff and to hell with the "authorities". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 May 04 - 12:47 PM Carol, That's a charming version of a heroic transition! :>)) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 07 May 04 - 01:11 PM I died as a mineral, and rose a plant, I died as a plant, and rose again an animal, I died as an animal, and rose a man. Why then should I fear to become less by dying? I shall die once again as a man, To rise an angel, perfect from head to foot. Again, when I suffer dissolution as an angel, I shall become what passes the conception of man. ----- Aloha nui loa Daylia; my sister. Very wise words there. Thank you so much for posting the poem. Mystics like Rumi are not the only ones that believed in the transmigration of spirit in attempt to atain perfection, and return to the source. The Hawaiian's also believed in the transmigration of spirit. If anyone is interested in reading my take on Hawaiian mysticism; fo to the following URL HUNA 101 Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 07 May 04 - 01:39 PM And Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much!) for sending me the book as a birthday gift, Two Bears! Among many other wonderful "things" I've received through you over the last year, it's been affirming, inspiring and changing me! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 07 May 04 - 07:35 PM And Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much!) for sending me the book as a birthday gift, Two Bears! Among many other wonderful "things" I've received through you over the last year, it's been affirming, inspiring and changing me! ------ You're more than welcome to the books. I am very glad you seem to be enjoying some of them. Did you get the little book back yet? Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 08 May 04 - 08:05 AM Yes I did - and thanks again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: 42 Date: 08 May 04 - 09:25 AM do we all really believe that humans are closer to angels than tree frogs? ( just as an example)They seem to do less harm and carry themselves with more dignity than most people seem capable of summoning. j |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 08 May 04 - 09:28 AM It's not that, it's the potential we have for getting closer to angels, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 08 May 04 - 11:17 AM First, I doubt we all believe any one thing in comon. But as to your question... TREE frogs? TREE FROGS??? Sorry, pal. A tree frog won't cut it. They have no art in them. They have no pyramids, no hanging gardens, no stabiles and mobiles; they will not heal the sick with their conscious inventions nor cause the stars to shudder with their symphonic inspirations. They have no beautiful Mondrian canvases nor beautiful V-8 engines nor beautiful motorcycles, nor schooners' sails nor space shuttles in them, all kinds of beauty beyond their little domain. Wall hangings, clean sheets, well-turned fountain pens, the tilling of acres in harmonious rows, orchards, farms -- all these are beyond them. And they will never invent angels to aspire to. Whereas you and we are capable of all this and more. Including the invention of angels. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 08 May 04 - 01:43 PM do we all really believe that humans are closer to angels than tree frogs? ( just as an example)They seem to do less harm and carry themselves with more dignity than most people seem capable of summoning. ----- 42; You missed the point of the Rumi poem. We are spirits that are learning and growing through multiple forms. I know for a fact that I was a lizard, a Bear, and several other animals, and several lifetimes as a human being over the last 800 years or so. In my previous life; I died as a U.S. soldier in WWI fighting the enemy in France. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 08 May 04 - 06:21 PM Yeah, I seem to relate well to lizards, hawks, and wolves. I think we all have soul connections to certain animal species. If you look at the development of a human foetus it seems to pass through all the evolutionary stages from single-celled creature to sea creature to amphibian to reptile to mammalian to human. We carry in our genes the whole story of life on this planet. There's more than one way to look at reincarnation. You can look at it from the cellular level, the genetic level, the mental level, or the spiritual level, and they are probably all valid in their own way. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 08 May 04 - 08:42 PM When the young man I mentioned above, died, there were a number of oddities involving ravens the first few days and weeks. * The first one was when the body was found- he'd been missing on the mountain for four days- quiet, watching ravens were sitting all around in the trees surrounding where the body lay. There had been NO assault on the body, although that is standard. (Keep in mind that this is Alaska and here Mother Nature claims many for her own.) * When the party notified the other groups by radio that he had been found they all turned back to base. A raven came from somewhere behind and circled one group that had been especially close to the young man in life then turned and flew back calling melodiously. One of the group said, There goes ___________. * One person who had been especially close to him was walking on a hard pan road close to town when a raven landed on the roadway ahead of her. He looked at her then strutted back and forth. She spoke to him and he cocked his head and warbled then lifted off and flew away. * One person drove into a grocery parking lot and before she even stopped the car a raven landed on the hood (bonnet) and walked to the windshield and stared intently on a packet of french fries she had on the dash board. She rolled down the window and laid a fry onto the hood. He backed off until it was laid down then came forward and picked it up and flew away. * A raven walked through an open door into a small liqor store/newspaper outlet and they had to shoo him out. * One friend wrote a song about him in which she called him an eagle. Then she had a dream in which he told her, "I'm no eagle! You know I'm a raven." She changed the lyrics immediately. To this day when a raven speaks to me, I greet him as Brother. (I would love to think that we have that option. I want to experience the world from above. I just wish we had a clearer view ahead) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 08 May 04 - 08:58 PM I have had special memories and visions related to hawk-nature. If I needed a particular icon to explain myself, I'd use a hawk as soon as any. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 08 May 04 - 09:41 PM To this day when a raven speaks to me, I greet him as Brother. ----- I consider all birds, animals, insects as little brothers and sisters. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 08 May 04 - 10:18 PM Another theory I've come across a few times in my studies is that while some people are truly "Earth souls" (meaning all previous incarnations - be they mineral, vegetable, animal or human - were on this planet), others originated elsewhere. Apparently homo sapiens were so disappointingly slow to develop during the first several millenia of existence that the "higher powers" finally petitioned certain of our "neighbors" to come help out. These "advanced" beings, for karmic reasons of their own, agreed to incarnate in human form here, to teach and assist us in "raising" and developing our consciousness. One source says that the first two "waves" of these more evolved souls simply gave up and left, discouraged and disgusted by our "crude and vile forms" and behaviors. (hee hee -- sorry, that tickles my funny bone a bit) But the third "wave" met with more success. And thus began civilization as we know it today. Hmm. If the theory is correct, I wonder if we (and the rest of the planet) weren't much better off when we were still "crude, vile and unevolved". ;-) daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 08 May 04 - 10:52 PM Two bears, can we be certain that they are not our big brothers and sisters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 08 May 04 - 11:13 PM Two bears, can we be certain that they are not our big brothers and sisters? ----- Absolutely! Human beings are unique in our ability to speak, and reasoning ability. Animals use instincts unless they are taught to imitate language such as parrots, etc. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Jim McCallan Date: 08 May 04 - 11:21 PM "I consider all birds, animals, insects as little brothers and sisters" But not Iraqis |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 08 May 04 - 11:34 PM But not Iraqis --- Jim: I have no problem with Iraqis. I DO have a problem with the terrorists that murder inocent civilians of ANY nation. Your comment, and the above reply is off topic for this thread; so I will not post further on this subject in this thread. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Jim McCallan Date: 08 May 04 - 11:36 PM What if your brother or sister was reincarnated as an Iraqi? Would that be off topic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 09 May 04 - 12:34 AM Say, Jim, What is the point you're making here? I don't seem to be getting it... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Jim McCallan Date: 09 May 04 - 12:48 AM Sorry, Amos. I was just asking Two bears to comment on an inconsistency in a position he took in another thread, earlier on this evening. I understand it may have appeared to be a cross-post, but the underlying point I was asking him about, would have been interesting, I think, were the aspect of reincarnation been brought into it. I had never looked at the situation that way before, myself, and I thought Two bears had reconciled himself to the quandry. I wished to see what his solution would have been. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Wolfgang Date: 09 May 04 - 05:37 AM I guess everyone picks and chooses what they're willing to be open-minded about. It also requires a bit of open-mindedness to consider the possibility that OBE are exactly that... experiences in which the consciousness is not in the body. (Carol) Carol, you go there really to the heart of the matter, the very reason I came posting to this thread in my first post. When you peruse this and similar threads you will never find that I only follow one hypothesis or ever claim to know for sure what the correct theory is. What has bothered me here from the very beginning (and in other threads as well) are people who follow only one interpretation and have the hubris to claim that they know for sure. That's why I cited Kendall's good thought and cited who it was here to claim certain knowledge instead of uncertain interpretation. If people here posted that they had this or that experience and their interpretation was that..., I would not have posted my first post and not this one. I have no problems at all with people coming to a different interpretation. The 'experiences in which the consciousness is not in the body' is nothing I have any problems with. In most of my dreams my center of consciousness is not in the body (often I see myself in a bird perspective). That the 'I' of personal experience in the awake person is usually behind the 'eye' (or somewhere below but mostly within the confines of the body) makes a lot of sense, for motor control is much more easy that way. But the point of the subjective 'I' can shift (by several methods and exercises). I can easily (well, not that easy with open eyes) transfer my 'I' in thought to a point where my body is not (phantasies, daydreaming, etc). The experience part is open to me too. Only the interpretation of that experience that's where I differ. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 09 May 04 - 09:05 PM Excellent comments, Wolfgang. Jim - If Two Bears seems to you to have shown an inconsistency in his statements, he would be sitting right in the same boat with all the rest of us fallible humans. We all make seemingly inconsistent statements from time to time...if you add up every word we've ever said and draw comparisons between them. We all unconsciously contradict ourselves from time to time. This is one reason why it's hell to be a politician, and be brought to account for every public word you have ever uttered. No one can pass that test of the literal word with perfect marks...not even great prophets like Jesus. They all appear to contradict themselves if you take their words out of context...but if you study the whole nature of the person you can soon understand the basis of his philosophy. The thing is, you've got to look at each statement a person makes in the context in which he made it. Two Bears does not categorize Iraqis in general as "bad people", nor does he categorize any nation in such a fashion. I can assure you of that. I know him. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Jim McCallan Date: 09 May 04 - 09:54 PM "No one can pass that test of the literal word with perfect marks" I would expect people to last longer than ten minutes, though, Little Hawk. However, what I said to Amos is still my position: Would we be as quick to de-humanise/torture/abuse, our fellow human being in general (supposed enemy combatants, or not), if we felt them to be our brothers and sisters. I'm certain you can appreciate the concept. Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 09 May 04 - 10:31 PM Oh, indeed I do, Jim. No question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 10 May 04 - 12:53 AM Thanks Amos ;-) I understand what you're saying, Wolfgang. Re: animals and consciousness... my perspective is that all of creation is conscious, and that each created thing is a tiny spark of divinity. I think that with humans, we have the ability to fool ourselves into thinking that we're separate from the rest of creation (and to cover up our divinity, or at least our awareness of it), and that is what accounts for the behavior that makes us appear to be of a more base nature sometimes than treefrogs (to use the example given earlier). But I also see purpose in everything that happens, and for me, that's an important thing to keep in mind as events appear to unfold in the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: *daylia* Date: 10 May 04 - 10:53 AM Would we be as quick to de-humanise/torture/abuse, our fellow human being in general (supposed enemy combatants, or not), if we felt them to be our brothers and sisters. One would hope not. Unfortunately, people's minds can culturally influenced, "trained" via "logical reasoning" (however faulty or biased that "reasoning" may be) to override the heart's natural compassionate and empathic responses, at least temporarily. Military training is one obvious example of this, political propoganda to justify war is another. Even the most compassionate people with the sincerest intention and desire to help others can be deluded by psychological manipulation, via regular "doses" of propoganda. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 10 May 04 - 01:06 PM I agree with CarolC's comments rather than Two bear's summation if only because I recognize the fallacy in not judging other creations by our own. The ant's world, for example, may be as 'intelligent' as ours, to THEM. And it COULD be that our human world and its accomplishments is no more significant than is the bug that is dug deep into the earth for 17 years then comes out, mates, lays eggs and dies. The urge is to procreate and persevere. Not that I actually believe this. After all, I too am human. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 10 May 04 - 01:49 PM I would submit that the greatest favor one human could do for another is to train them in the recognition of the common distortions of logic: a. Falsification of data b. Misestimation of importances c. Altering the sequence of events d. Asserting logical conclusions that are not logical e. Falsifying the time of events. f. Inserting irrelevant information. g. Omitting relevant information to distort conclusions h. Claiming similarities where there are differences, or insisting on differences where there are similarities. i. Claiming that things are identical which are not. j. Claiming things are different which are identical. There are probably a few more but those are the main ones I can think of. If a person's analytical skills were sharpened up to the point where he was never fooled by these distortions when presented by PR artists or advertisers or other liars, he would be a stronger, clearer-minded person. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Two_bears Date: 10 May 04 - 05:30 PM Re: animals and consciousness... my perspective is that all of creation is conscious, and that each created thing is a tiny spark of divinity. I think that with humans, we have the ability to fool ourselves into thinking that we're separate from the rest of creation (and to cover up our divinity, or at least our awareness of it), and that is what accounts for the behavior that makes us appear to be of a more base nature sometimes than treefrogs (to use the example given earlier). But I also see purpose in everything that happens, and for me, that's an important thing to keep in mind as events appear to unfold in the world. ----- Could not agree more Carol. Everything has a spark of divinity in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST Date: 05 Jan 06 - 09:34 AM NDE & reincarnation |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:33 AM I guess I'd better start believing ...I see this thread has been reincarnated and come back as a 'guest' with a moving story to tell.. Is that YOU, Thomas Sawyer? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:58 AM Ah the human brain and the things it is capable of - the marvel never ceases to amaze. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 06 - 12:13 PM That's kinda like being awestruck by a radio's endless ability to invent stories and songs, bobad....it is wise not to confuse the receiver with the author.... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 05 Jan 06 - 12:43 PM I think we're tuned into different frequencies, Amos. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM Nae doot, amigo! :D But the idea of attributing "sourcehood", to coin a term, to a bunch of neurons, strikes me as pretty far-fetched. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:06 PM A lot of what that guy "saw" was the same as was "seen" by many people, myself included, upon the ingestion of various pharmaceuticlals back in "those" days. Of course it is possible god was in those tabs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:16 PM neurons gots plenty of "sourcehood", Amos, when they are stirred up in funny ways by various inputs..*grin* (it's a lot simpler than positing an "I know not what, but I'll give it some names" that existed... ummmm...before anything existed) talk about "confusing receiver with author"....how about confusing linguistic constructs with 'objective reality'? (if God was in them tabs, bobad, he sure had a weird sense of humor about what I oughta see!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 06 - 02:30 PM Bill: No; a human being is not a Turing machine, no matter how you slice it and dice it. Understanding is an order of magnitude different in quality from all the complex interactions electro-chemistry can muster. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:31 PM No it's not, it's simply a FUNCTION of those electro-chemical interactions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 05 Jan 06 - 05:49 PM >>Extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof, and very careful investigations. As far as I know, no properly investigated reincarnation case has stood up to careful examination. And really, investigations by true believers don't count. They don't want to disprove it.<< In this case, what is an extraordinary claim? Is it more or less extraordinary to claim that when you die you're just gone--like you never existed? In these types of discussions, proof isn't required although it certainly helps. What you need is a good, logical argument pro or con. Personally, I think there is some form of reincarnation but beyond that I do not and cannot speculate. Consciousness consists of the perception of external stimuli and the memories of them and the fact that you can choose to remember events infinitely theoretically. Unconsciousness or non-consciousness is a state where nothing is experienced, nothing remembered (I'm not talking about dreaming--I am talking true, complete unconsciousness). Not even the passage of time can be remembered. So if you went unconscious for exactly an hour while looking at the clock, it would seem to you that the clock simply jumped forward an hour instananeously. Missing time--as the abductees say. In fact, you cannot remember being unconscious. Now suppose you die at X--a point in the future--and death actually extinguished consciousness. Your life simply becomes missing time. It's no different than if you suddenly got complete, total amnesia at age 50 and forgot everything and became like a newborn. What do you remember of the first 50 years? Nothing. Your life becomes missing time, unconsciousness. Yet, during your life you experienced and you recalled your experiences and could recall events as many times as you wanted. So you were conscious. CONTRADICTION. The conclusion is that death does not extinguish consciousness. IOW, consciousness is eternal. But heaven or hell is not practical because you can't recall events the same way which means your consciousness is altered and consciousness cannot be altered. Your experiences and they way you perceived them are what make you a unique personality. If it changes at all, you would not be you anymore. If heaven was this place where I go after I die and feel no more pain then I cannot recall any of my painful experiences. CONTRADICTION. Heaven or hell would alter my consciousness which cannot happen. So there there is no heaven or hell. You must relive your experiences and sensations the way you always have and must be able to remember and relive them infinitely theoretically. If you are ever prevented from doing so, your consciousness is altered. The conclusion is, we must come back here. We must become incarnate again. What if the earth is destroyed? Then we wait. How long? What difference does it make? We have all eternity to wait. What happens in the mean time? I don't know. What about god, is there one? I don't know. Are we stuck forever being born and then dying again (samsara)? I don't know. Is there a nirvana--a breaking of the samsaric cycle? I don't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 06 - 06:08 PM Imagination finds a road to the realm of the gods, and there man can glimpse that which is to be after the soul's liberation from the world of substance. Kahlil Gibran |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:11 PM "after the soul's liberation from the world of substance." ...a consummation devoutly to be wished. I've seen what this world can offer. I'm not all that impressed. Though it is quite interesting here, and sometimes very pleasurable...if I thought that this physical life here was all there is, I'd probably pull the plug right now without further hesitation. (knowing that I wouldn't be around afterward to deal with any possible repercussions...) As it stands, though, I figure I would not be making any kind of quick escape by so doing, but rather increasing the future work load by a considerable margin. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:23 PM well, that oughta settle it! If ol' Kahlil said it, who am I to doubt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:27 PM What merits attention, Sir, is not the sayer but the thing said. However, no need to stir yourself unduly; a moment will come when all this becomes vivid. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:33 PM There ya go, Bill. *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:33 PM "A philosopher stepped forward: Master, is not a stone like a macrocosm, like an olive pit? Recondite, willing to give but little of itself? Master, a stone may lie in a riverbed for an eon, giving nothing, observing all, wearing smooth, dwindling, slowly diminishing, until at last - nothing. But where is the stone of eons past? In what context does it still exist? Its atoms have spread across the seas. Is it a stone still, Master, or is it a part of us all? The Master replied: Do you have a question to ask, or do you want to make a speech?" "The Profit" Kehlog Albran |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:35 PM >>>...a consummation devoutly to be wished. I've seen what this world can offer. I'm not all that impressed. Though it is quite interesting here, and sometimes very pleasurable...if I thought that this physical life here was all there is, I'd probably pull the plug right now without further hesitation. (knowing that I wouldn't be around afterward to deal with any possible repercussions...)<<<< Right. Even then, the idea that death extinguishes consciousness basically turns consciousness into a kind of illusion. And there are schools of thought that hold that consciousness is an illusion but the problem is, an illusion to WHOM? If consciousness is an illusion, then how would I know when I die? Conceivably, my consciousness would have no reason but to continue deluding me as it always has. In fact, I could be dead already, we all could. In fact, the universe could have already ended. Then again, none of these things really existed anyway since consciousness is an illusion. But when you get right down to it, the same is true of consciousness being eternal. Odd, isn't it? Whether consciousness is extinguished by death or eternal, there is no difference between them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 05 Jan 06 - 07:55 PM "A moment will come when....." and if it DON'T come, do I get my quarter back? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 05 Jan 06 - 08:06 PM Yep -- I have already written your refund check in case I am wrong! :) And there are schools of thought that hold that consciousness is an illusion but the problem is, an illusion to WHOM? If consciousness is an illusion, then how would I know when I die? Conceivably, my consciousness would have no reason but to continue deluding me as it always has. In fact, I could be dead already, we all could. In fact, the universe could have already ended. Then again, none of these things really existed anyway since consciousness is an illusion. The start of your algorithm is elegant to the max, AR. But the answer to "to Whom?" and "my consciousness" are identical. The whom is Thou, the consciousness is thou, the awareness of your mourners and the celebration of your release will also be Thou. Building from the bottom up--arguing that conscious is disproven by matter-- is a logical error of confusing the product with the cause, the receipt-point with the origin-point, the WHat with the WHo. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:07 PM Bill - No, you don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: CarolC Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:38 PM What quarter? I don't remember any quarter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: John O'L Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:54 PM Actually, as I understand it, you will be required to pay another quarter, and another, and continue doing so until such a moment does eventuate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 06 Jan 06 - 04:54 PM >>The start of your algorithm is elegant to the max, AR. But the answer to "to Whom?" and "my consciousness" are identical. The whom is Thou, the consciousness is thou, the awareness of your mourners and the celebration of your release will also be Thou.<< These are all inexact terms but the point is made. If consciousness is an illusion, it is an illusion to itself. This is simply a logical impossiblility. And yet, there do seem to be ways that consciousness seems to trick itself. >>Building from the bottom up--arguing that conscious is disproven by matter-- is a logical error of confusing the product with the cause, the receipt-point with the origin-point, the WHat with the WHo.<< Perhaps de Chardin was right: consciousness is inherent in matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: John O'L Date: 06 Jan 06 - 05:29 PM My mistake. Amos is correct. You do get your quarter back. Then you get another, and another, and continue getting quarters until such a moment...etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Keef Date: 06 Jan 06 - 07:58 PM Since this thread has been reincarnated..there must be something to it! I am a devout skeptic...BUT... I saw a TV program on SBS Australia about 15 years ago called The Reincarnation experience (I think that was the title) which was very intriguing. The program took three case studies of persons who claimed detailed memories of past lives recovered under hypnosis. Now it is possible that the filmmakers staged the whole thing (SBS is a non commercial station and usually credible). One case in particular was very convincing. A woman from Australia who it is claimed had never held a passport or travelled overseas, had recollections of a childhood in rural England. Under hypnosis she spoke in a very authentic West Country accent (few Australians can immitate this at all well). She was able to provide some clues as to the geographical location and drew a sketch of a building (quite distinctive with an unusual shaped window) and also a peculiar geometric design. Next thing was that they got her a passport and flew her to England. When she got close to the presumed location she became excited and started running across the fields towards a farm. A couple of yokels came out to meet her and the camera crew and it was briefly explained to them what the purpose of the visit was. She showed them the sketch of the building and one of the men said ...that is where we keep the pigs! They all then walked on until they reached the building which was indeed full of pigs. The yokels were shown the geometric design and asked if they recognised it. They did not. Someone then had the idea to get a shovel and remove about half a metre of pigshit from the floor to reveal the exact design which was engraved in the stonework. Dunno if anyone else happened to see this documentary but it left me with the feeling that if it was a hoax then it was certainly very well acted out by some very talented actors. If it was a genuine documentary then I would have to admit there are some strange things going on here that do not have an easy scientific explanation. Of the other case studies in the film, one was unconvincing, the other was quite convincing but not so much so as the pigsty episode. If the pigsty case was genuine then similar trials could surely be done under controlled conditions to prove or disprove this reincarnation theory. If it was proven beyond doubt that reincarnation was a fact then it would surely be a whole new ball game! Keef |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 06 Jan 06 - 08:07 PM see!!! Can't even get agreement about the rates, much less the metaphysical parameters. I'll bet they won't even honor Amos' check...hmmmpff! Tell you what, folks...if I appear, you tell 'em I was one of the sweetest, nicest skeptics around, and I oughta get my quarter anyway....and 60 virgins to compensate me for not getting my 'moment' in a reasonable way in THIS life. *goes off mumbling about parity and equity and disinformation* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,AR282 Date: 06 Jan 06 - 08:36 PM I don't know if this means anything. I'm not saying it proves jack, so don't get all skeptical or Shirley MacLaine on me. But as a boy, I used to be bombarded with images of medieval Europe. Germany or the Lowlands, seems like. I was hit by these images without knowing anything about medival Europe at that age. The sound of medieval music (of which I'm kind of a poor man's aficionado) would cause a flooding of these images. But it wasn't just images. Almost like snatches of memory. For instance, I distinctly remember a recurring image of a woman in a white headdress of medieval fashion--Dutch-like--and she was standing in a doorway of a stone building. She was behind a half-door and the lower half was closed and she was leaning out and emptying a bucket--I now realize it was as likely to be human waste as anything else. I "remember" standing alone in a stone room with a vaulted ceiling--very Gothic--with a stone colonade all around me. I seemed to be holding a torch and I am hearing string music in a distant room and it seems to me that I was there because it was where I could best hear the bass frequencies, with the other higher-pitched instruments made fainter by the distance. I seemed to have this fascination for bass notes, which I do in fact have now. And it seemed to me that I was a frustrated monk who wanted to be a musician and composer--but I was just a poor, insignificant monk and no one cared about my dream. This "memory" always made me feel unhappy as though the person whose memory I was having was unhappy with his life. I know how it sounds but I was haunted by these recurring themes as a boy of 4 or 5. When I went to the Detroit Institute of Arts as a boy and saw all these old medieval paintings, the connection was so overwhelming, I stayed in that section of the museum--I didn't care about anything else. The images and sounds were like those you might get when you hear or see something you saw long ago as a child but then never thought about again for decades and suddenly there it is and your mind REELS. Like a time machine, you suddenly remember the first time you heard or saw that and you remember it quite vividly. Well, these recurring themes were sort of like that but they weren't as strong because they were like memories of things I never did nor could have done or even understood at such a young age. Nowadays, I don't get it as much. Occasionally, it still hits me but most of the time it doesn't. It has faded. But it makes me wonder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 06 Jan 06 - 09:06 PM AR, It is not at all unusual for people to have vivid segments of memories. Grant it as much credence as you decide is right, no more or less; if you know this was your own, then don't let skepticism, or cynicism, sway you from your own certainties. Conversely is you are sure these pictures are not your own, then just acknowledge them and send them on their way; act from your truest center and you won't go wrong. Sometimes it helps to know that a lot of other folks have had similar partial or whole memories from other periods of time. Usually, it involves some unresolved loss, or some important unfinished communication. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 06 Jan 06 - 09:09 PM Been there Done that |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jan 06 - 09:20 PM In the light of total joy and completion, Bill, who needs a puny quarter? ;-) Check out this link for more great info: Another personal story |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 06 Jan 06 - 09:41 PM I plugged this guy's name into Google Scholar, which is a search engine for citation in scientific publications, and it came up with zilch. So much for cred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 06 Jan 06 - 09:56 PM I believe in reincarnation, but have never had any good reason to support that belief. I was interested in a statement on this thread that reincarnation has never been proven - of course it hasn't, how can it ever be proved, except by sopmeone who can time travel or something. The first link on this thread (about the young boy who believed he was a pilot in a previous life) is hard to answer. I read a book years ago called Across Time and Death: A Mother's Search for Her Past Life Children (Cockell 1993), which I found pretty compelling. But I have just found this link which pretty much discredits the arguments in the book - A Case of Reincarnation -- Reexamined It is pretty easy to take any story and analyse it an discredit it, using certain lines of logic. Analysts who do this are credited with having a "rejection mentality". Just as some people may be gullible and have a predisposition to believe certain things, so others have a predisposition NOT to believe. It is important to remember that opinions have no bearing on whether an event has occurred or not. therefore, while reincarnation may not have been proven, for me it has also not been disproven. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:03 PM I read recently that one in every 18 people has a third nipple. This suprised me - that means I may know several people with a third nipple. It seems like an even greater proportion of people in Britain believe in reincarnation. Facts and Figures of Reincarnation Belief in Europe |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:05 PM The guy who was running a stained glass studio? They aren;t usually in scholarly literature AFAIK. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:08 PM "Mr. Benedict has been closely involved in the mechanics of cellular communication and research dealing with the relationship of light to life called Quantum Biology. This research is providing dramatic new perspectives on how biological systems work. Mr. Benedict has found that living cells can respond very quickly to light stimulation resulting in, among other things, high speed healing. He is a researcher, inventor and lecturer who holds six U.S. patents." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:23 PM Ian Stevenson, M.D. is Director, Division of Personality Studies and Carlson Professor of Psychiatry, both a part of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. He is a researcher in the study of reincarnation as well as being the leading scientist studying children who claim to remember previous lives. he has written a number of books including Unlearned Language: New Studies in Xenoglossy. This book examines two cases where people speak a language that he or she has not learned normally, in childhood or later. The major part of the book is devoted to lengthy reports of the two cases. Transcripts of tape recordings provide evidence that the subjects could speak the foreign language intelligently and were not just repeating a few phrases of a language that they may have learned casually in some other way. The results of extensive inquiries into the possibility that either subject might have learned normally in early life the foreign language he spoke in childhood were negative in each case. another book by Stephenson, Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, examines cases when children remember past lives, call out for relatives (in their past life) by name, and recognize their old past-life neighborhoods. Stevenson has always been careful to say his work is only "suggestive of reincarnation". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 06 Jan 06 - 10:32 PM 60 virgins, Bill? To which religion do you plan to adhere? *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Pied Piper Date: 07 Jan 06 - 07:31 AM There is an autistic UK adult (I forget his name) that was able to learn to speak Icelandic in one day. Now I know Icelandic and English related languages but still it's pretty impressive. I think the problem is underestimating the potential of the neocortex of certain individuals. For every square centimetre of the neocortex a baby will make 30,000 new synaptic connections per second for 4 years. This should not surprise us; in that period babies turn themselves into walking and talking individuals with personalities. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 10:32 AM The truth is that a much larger number oif people over the history of the race have believed in reincarnation in one for m or another than have believed in the one-life model. The personal experiences that are pointed to in the references above, and the many many more reports in the literature, indicate that the one-life model simply doesn't account for the anomalies reported. As the saying goes, if there is one white crow, then it is no longer true that all crows are black. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: bobad Date: 07 Jan 06 - 11:05 AM For a scientific take on the NDE : http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/The_Ketamine_Model_of_the_Near_Death_Experience.9264.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 07 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM "...the one-life model simply doesn't account for the anomalies..." not in the simplistic terms usually employed, it doesn't. A basic explanation of electricity "doesn't account for" ball lightning, either, but that's no reason to propose some metaphysical entity appearing as a manifestation of heat & light. The reincarnation theory creates more questions than it answers. Do you hear that muffled rustling? That's William of Ockham mumbling, "Didn't anyone LISTEN?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM I demur, Bill D; it requires a simple, single postulate: that the seat of self is different from the body, and is capable of lifetimes in series. This single postulate implies a lot of things, you're right. But so did, for example, Copernicus' rejection of the terra-centric model. A lot of things that had been comfortably answered were thrown into disarray by Copernicus and, about 80 years later, Galileo Galilei. It upset those married to the existing paradigm, to the extent, as you know, that G. was hauled before the Inquisition and required to recant his assertions. Nevertheless, it moves. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 07 Jan 06 - 12:39 PM ...and a simple, single postulate is good to illustrate the logical truth "From false premises, anything follows." Copernicus' theory was testable, but was, as you note, resisted until ways were devised to demonstrate and support it. There are so many ways to explain the 'notion' of past lives with REAL data, that propping it up with recounting of coincidences, interesting stories and wishful thinking requires a pretty elaborate bit of Gerrymandering of the logical landscape. So VERY many ideas are put forth these days prefaced by, "I believe that..." and then defended by reference to almost any collection of vaguely supportive affirmations by others who also believe. --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities." Aristotle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work" - Thomas Alva Edison ---------------------------------------------------------------- Religion (n) - The awe in which we hold our ignorance. ------------------------------------------------------------ "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned." -------------------------------------------------------- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jan 06 - 12:51 PM "I think we are welcomed. But it was not a peaceful welcome." —George W. Bush Just had to throw that in, Bill. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 07 Jan 06 - 12:56 PM LOL,Ebbie...yeah, that says a lot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 01:07 PM Bill, Dismissing such a wide range of experiences as "mere vignettes" ignores the statistically significant volume of data. Testability? Here's a test from those who practice traumatic incident reduction as a therapeutic approach. Conditions resolve when such "past life" experiences are addressed, and persist unresolved when they are ignored. This of course does not mean that past lives are "real" -- just that they play a role in the psychosomatic vectors of unwanted physical and emotional syndromes. And if you want to trade aphorisms, I recall Sherlock Holmes saying something about the improbable being necessary when all other explanations are ruled out; something like that, anyway. Anyway, I think we are both coming from positions of opinion, really. I can't put a lot of words down here that will change yours. It is the nature of conviction to define our experiences in keeping with its mandates. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 07 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM *smile*..well, I think Sherlock had a point, only you & I 'might' differ about the way we decide when " ...all other explanations are ruled out..." Indeed...I will easily concede that in therapy, concepts can be employed, (metaphorically, I would hope) that do not necessarily pass a 'reality litmus test'! Yeah, we obviously do approach certain issues from different ummmm...directions, but I don't quite like lumping it all together as "opinon".....Galileo's "it still moves" says pretty clearly that some opinions remain flatly wrong, no matter how fervently they are held, or by whom. The corollary is that "not all opinions can be RIGHT simultaneously" unless you allow unlimited equivocation about personal definitions. (I wish I had a $ for every time someone has said "well, it's true for ME!")(and another $ for every time I bit my tongue and didn't try to explain it..*grin*) ah, well....I take comfort in my 'personal' interpretation of Yogi Berra's aphorism..."If folks are gonna stay away in droves, you can't make 'em!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 07 Jan 06 - 01:54 PM Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend, Before we too into the Dust descend; Dust into Dust, and under Dust, to lie, Sans Wine, sans Song, sans Singer, and---sans End! Alike for those who for TO-DAY prepare, And those that after a TO-MORROW stare, A Muezzin from the Tower of Darkness cries "Fools! your Reward is neither Here nor There!" Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd Of the Two Worlds so learnedly, are thrust Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust. Oh, come with old Khayyam, and leave the Wise To talk; one thing is certain, that Life flies; One thing is certain, and the Rest is Lies; The Flower that once has blown for ever dies. Myself when young did eagerly frequent Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument About it and about: but evermore Came out by the same Door as in I went. Omar Khayyam (1048-1122) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 02:09 PM Wal, Occam's razor is a beautiful thing, but paradigms shift when the count of anomalies grows too large or cannot be readily blocked out. The good Doctor Harvey, he who first documented the pumping motion of the heart and the circulatory system's general anatomy, was up against a deeply embedded model of circulation that traced its origins all the way back to Galen, who had been the primary authority on medical models since the 2d century A.D. Galen's model of tides and humours looks antiquated and superstitious today... but for 1400 years, it had explained medical problems and served as a robust model. Harvey's research flew in the face of this entrenched paradigm, and the furor that arose from it was quite a tumult. If Harvey had not been an aristocrat and established at court he might well have been ridden out of town on a rail, like Ignaz Semmelweiss, who also suggested an effective improved model that went against the teaching of Galen's version of humours. Your argument on behalf of testability is admirable. I would be curious to hear what kind of a test case you think would serve to elucidate the postulate of a non-material component to life organisms. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 02:28 PM I wish I had your faith, Bill. ;-) Life would be so much simpler. Mind you, I did have your faith until I hit about my mid-20's. Life was simpler then. I was mostly concerned about when I was going to meet "Miss Right". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jan 06 - 02:59 PM Well, Bill did meet Miss Right, (bless 'em both) so he doesn't have that worry. However, Bill, you say : "The corollary is that "not all opinions can be RIGHT simultaneously" unless you allow unlimited equivocation about personal definitions." Wouldn't you agree that the opinion of someone who has experienced something may be of greater worth than the opinion of someone who has not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 03:07 PM It makes sense to me. It is also a given that one of the first reactions of thehuman system to that which lies beyond experience is to make nothing of it as quick as possible. There is a story, and I do not know if it apocryphal or not, that the first Spanish seamen to arrive in the Carribean islands rowed ashore in a longboat; the indigenous people welcomed them, but wondered where they had come from; they had never seen a ship, a large sailing craft, and even though the Spanish vessel was plainly anchored off shore, it too three days for the locals to come around to seeing it was there. A good story, whether accurate or not! :) It has been said that the world can be divided into those who have been outside their bodies, and those who have not. Those who have not have a natural effort to make into a solid that which communicates with them; receiving communications from something non-material would rattle their cages a bit much. COnversely there is a natural effort from those who have been outside their bodies and are to some degree conscious of that fact, to try and make the apparent solidity of those who communicate tot hem into a nothingness such as they are. The theory is that communication wants to achieve a perfect duplication at the other end of the line. IF you are "being" a solid object you will not feel understood by an immaterial agent; and vice versa. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 04:38 PM I know not what course others may take; but for my part, give me ambiguity or give me something else. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 04:49 PM People always seem to assume that only the stuff they can see is real. I understand perfectly well how they feel, but they could still be wrong about it. Who sees everything? And who sees everything that they DO see with perfect clarity? I know I don't. I doubt that the scientific community...or the religious community...do either. The world will always contain mysteries which are beyond grasp or proof, but CAN be experienced. There will always be real stuff out there that no one can prove empirically to anyone else. The fact that there is also plenty of stuff in people's heads that's entirely false does not necessarily invalidate ALL the various stuff that YOU can't prove yet (assuming you happen to be one of those who delights in being "realistic" and skeptical about most things you consider "unscientific" or unusual). Still, you can have fun annoying other people by trying to discredit everything you can't prove, I suppose... I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most people would far rather be "right" than be happy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 05:25 PM The trouble is when "being right" means making others "wrong", much unhappiness ensues, and very little actual rightness! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 05:50 PM Exactly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 07 Jan 06 - 05:53 PM Ebbie...."... the opinion of someone who has experienced something may be of greater worth than the opinion of someone who has not?" well, that's a nice generality! Indeed it is often true! But can't you cite cases where 'experience' was deceptive in various ways? Just simple things like interviewing 14 witnesses to a car accident will show that memories are slippery and impressionability in common. It has almost been proven that those kids in the day-care molestation case a few years ago were LED to false memories by eager investigators. Why is it so hard to believe that stuff we WANT to believe can work the same way? (no, that doesn't prove it did in all cases) Psychologists doing tests can stimulate areas of the brain with electrodes and 'cause' memories of various sorts...(usually pain, color...etc..in simple tests like that)... -------------------------------------------------- Little Hawk...as to "Still, you can have fun annoying other people by trying to discredit everything you can't prove, I suppose..."....that may be how some do it, but...I hope that's not all you think of MY attempts to shed light on our experiences and the thought patterns involved. There are a couple of things going on in my explorations...one is that I like testing and clarifying my own mind and seeing what I can do with these ideas...as honestly as I can do it. (and I don't doubt YOUR honesty in your reporting). The problem is that people who believe various things that can't be 'proven' scientifically view the world in different ways and make decisions differently than those who approach with more scepticism.....so what? Well, Muslim suicide bombers are an extreme example of the BAD route that unfounded beliefs can take, while Aunt Josie's notion that she saw the ghost of her father is pretty benign (unless 'he' tells her to do awkward things!) You and Amos and others have beliefs based at least partly on certain 'experiences'...and for the most part, it affects me very little, just as my scepticism doesn't sway YOU in your assurance...but there are so very many 'beliefs' that people hold that DO affect themselves and others negatively, (cult religions that eat the family savings, fake seances, governments run according to astrological predictions....even folks who laughingly pay attention to the paper in their Fortune cookies), that it is really hard to separate the benign from the serious. .. It is so difficult in discussions like this that last for years ..in different formats with different hot buttons..to keep focus on specific points and precise definitions and show each other what we mean and how we mean it without getting away from neutral, non-judgemental bantering and verging on personal criticism. I 'try' to watch myself, as I seldom let my view of a position affect my view of a person....(well, 97.0217% of the time *grin*) (don't YOU suspect that some expressions of Bluegrass musicians from Chicago are fueled by serious problems, despite disclaimers?) short answer...I think the debate and the issues are important. Knowing how we think and the implications OF our patterns in relevant to the species as a whole. Nothing I say in this little forum is gonna change the world, but that butterfly in Brazil 'might' eventually help ease tensions in Israel, hmmmmm? Can't 'prove' it won't |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jan 06 - 06:16 PM No, Bill, I wasn't aiming it at you. I don't find your comments to be mean-spirited. I do find that with some skeptics, but not in your case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jan 06 - 06:19 PM "It is so difficult in discussions like this that last for years ..in different formats with different hot buttons..to keep focus on specific points and precise definitions and show each other what we mean and how we mean it without getting away from neutral, non-judgemental bantering and verging on personal criticism." Bill D Indeed. If and when we keep the discussion focused on experiences or the lack of them (Notice that I call it a "lack"! *G*), and beliefs and doubts and skepticisms and openness (See? I can't help it!) it's fun as well as informational. I enjoy it a lot. But back to the discussion: A few years back I became aware that when two people or 50 people are looking at something, they are not necessarily seeing the same thing. And they may never know it. How often does one describe what one is seeing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 07 Jan 06 - 06:34 PM It is interesting to try and say what you see and ONLY what you directly see, ratyher than adding all your assumptions. If I look at my monitor, for example, I am inclined to say I see "a monitor from Apple" whereas the core fact is that I see a monitor with a logo on it shaped like an Apple. The rest is our endless additives at play, and you are absolutely right that mostly what we say is a mix of "ground truth", directly observed, extrapolations, surmises, assumptions based on past experiences and so on. Part of this is just the smokey obfuscation of semantics. A lot of words have been twisted away from their definitions in order to slant communication one way or another -- "liberal" is a quick example. You can get to feeling a lot better if you just shift gears and focus on the solid direct and actually present for a while instead. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: freda underhill Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:43 AM In 1978, Thomas Sawyer was an avowed agnostic until his pickup truck fell on him and crushed his chest flat. He was clinically dead for 15 minutes,and this is how he describes what happened during that time.. Thomas Sawyer's near-death experience |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:22 AM For sheer volume of purely anecdotal material, but sometimes persuasive, see http://www.open-sesame.com/memorybank.html. Fun reading, at least. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: katlaughing Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:03 AM freda and Amos, thanks for the links! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM ??? Thomas Sawyer was already referred to back in January. Is this new information? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:32 PM in fact, he was included in Partridge's link back in 2004. I guess one can just re-read this whole thread to refresh the memory of what has been said about the topic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: GUEST,Partridge Date: 20 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM So much has happened since 2004. My link then and the one I did as guest(by mistake) to refresh in 2006, I hope has given people something to think about. I no longer have faith in the afterlife, I know. I look forward to it, I just hope that when I move on I've done what I was here to do. I think that the answer to everything is love. love Pat xxx |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:06 PM The answer to my rising health insurance rates is LOVE? Who woulda guessed? (Do I have to love Kaiser Permanante?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: John O'L Date: 20 Dec 06 - 03:42 PM "The answer to my rising health insurance rates is LOVE?" I think the idea is that the general rise in the cost of health insurance is related to the general decline in the incidence of love. I doubt if there will be any empirical evidence forthcoming. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Bill D Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM *sigh*...I'm afraid you're right, John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Another reincarnation story. From: Amos Date: 20 Dec 06 - 04:37 PM Love is not easy to capture in empirical terms, I reckon. Maybe because it comes in too many flavors. A |
