BS: Can You Say Acrimony?

Subject: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 10:42 PM

Discussions rage, insults fly and acrimony reigns supreme. All this, when endless arguments arise about religion/faith/spirituality. Everyone is anxious to say what they think. If everyone talked and nobody listened, would it be a conversation? For whatever part I've played in all of this, I offer my regrets.

To all my friends in here whatever flavor they may be, from Art Thieme and Bill D to Bobert and Khandu, (and even you, Martin Gibson)peas be with you. I think I'll stick to music and other bs. I'd rather have a discussion than a dissing match..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 10:59 PM

Everybody has an opinion (well-informed or not) and thinks the world has to hear it. Blame Phil Donohue and Oprah and Jerry Springer and Ricki Lake and Jenny Jones and Maury Povich and..

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 11:36 PM

Well, Jerry, I couldn't have said it better.

Yeah, I've been known to get up on a soapbox now and then but I'd like to think when I get to discussin' issues (okay, debating them, if you will...) that I do it with respect for those on the other side. I mean, I cannot fathom either DougR or Teribus resorting to the base-ness of what I've seen here at Mudcat over the last month or two.

It has gotten so bad that even well thought out threads get hyjacked by the same few folks who just want to find another thread to attack one another. It doesn't make me want to contribute.

Throw in the "slam book" threads that I was asking about and Mudcat has just about been reduced to somethin' akin to TV wrestling. It is gettin' dumbed down at breakneck speed and I'm finding less and less joy in coming here...

If it weren't for you, Jerry, and about a dozen other folks here (you all know who you are...) I'd just delete Mudcat from my "favorites"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 11:57 PM

Mr Rasmussen, being a good person, tends to think that others similar to him are likewise good. He is not always correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Aug 04 - 11:59 PM

Those of use who try to assume that others are good, are often disappointed, but some of us keep on trying...

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 12:14 AM

Yeah, well, some of us have been provoked, even stalked around here.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 03:01 AM

I've been saying this for a while now - I have stopped looking at some of the threads once they've been hijacked by the 'gang'.

I don't always make a contribution because I work on the basis of 'open your mouth and let everybody know you're stupid' and sometimes I don't know enough about a subject to volunteer an opinion, but I do learn a lot from reading the diverse opinions given by other people. I get very disappointed when an interesting thread gets spoilt by those who aren't REALLY interested in the content.

We can only hope that they'll get bored in time and go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: C-flat
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 03:35 AM

Well said Jerry.
Like, it seems, a number of others, my one time obsession with checking-in here a couple of times a day has been diminished by the tiresome shit-flinging that takes place so often these days.
As a musician, I always read above the BS line (most queries are answered quicker and by better qualified than me) but my great pleasure has always been to flick through the BS and enjoy the friendly banter of those threads.
It's just becoming less of a pleasure of late.

C-flat.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:37 AM

Especially down in the card room.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 07:55 AM

...rhymes with alimony and matrimony? Yup, I've pretty much been avoiding such threads of late, kinda like a Mudcat depression, and I'm waiting for better times ahead.

Sigh, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:03 AM

Hrothgar - with winning hands thrown on the baize?? :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: fiddler
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:08 AM

Never argue with a fool for they are doing the same thing - Les Barker (or similar sentiments).

Andy

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 08:10 AM

We go through these ugly phases every now and again. So far we've always seemed to come out of them.

I've been finding the same recently myself. I find myslef glancing through the BS threads,. and noving on with a nasty taste in my mouth. Instead of friendly joshing, or serious and even heated argument there are these dirty little squabbles. People describe this kind of thing as "adolescent", but I don't think that's really fair. You get yobs at all ages, and the older ones can be the worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:16 AM

Yeah, I've been passing over the nasties. If I want that sort of thing I'll follow the politicking that's going on. I keep thinking of what eventually happened to the troll in "The Three Billy Goats Gruff."

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: HRH ted of hull
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:19 AM

Acrimony, acrimony, acrimony. Yes, I can say it, albeit with a slight lisp.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:24 AM

What DID happen to that troll?

It was the favourite story of a little girl I used to babysit. She had a nasty habit of sucking a dummy (comforter?) and learned to speak around it, so that, as all our mothers warned us, her front teeth stuck out. As a result, she couldn't pronounce her 'T's, they came out as 'K's.

Being her favourite story, she loved to join in, particularly when the goats went 'trip trap, trip trap, over the rickety bridge'. We very rarely got through the story without hysterical laughter.

You may need to say it aloud, as she would had said it.....

LTS

PS, agree, far too much nastiness and thread hijacking - same ol' same ol'.... it should improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

Nothing will improve unless people make a concerted effort to improve it. Ignoring the people who are trying to hijack the threads, be they tiresome, boorish wisecrackers trying to get attention for being funny, or abusive, mean spirited jerks, is the only thing that will work in an unmoderated forum.

When you ignore them, they really do go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:30 AM

The biggest billy goat knocked him off the bridge, as I remember the story, butt I'm sure that there are variants. (Sorry, but not very.)

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 09:34 AM

No, but how about -

Humperdink, Humperdink, Humperdink, HumperDIIIINNNNK!

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:46 AM

I don't think starting ANOTHER thread on this is part of the solution. There is a phase in MudMesses where people get to the point of feeling, "I can fix this XXXXXXXX." Then everyone gets that feeling at the same time and we have more threads on the mess than we do on real life. The derivative threads are, IMO, a bigger problem than the messes they try to hunmorously defuse.

The cure? MUSIC.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM

Optionally we could adopt a policy of not jumping into the middle of a discussion between two people, and pour oil on waters we have percieved as troubled.

These things probably run their course alot sooner if allowed to run their natural course. With minimum interfence of an uninvited mediator.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:52 AM

In general, I've noticed the Internet has been getting meaner in the last couple of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Aug 04 - 10:55 AM

And you see some people that seem to want to spend a lot of their free time here. You'd think they'd learn to play nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 12:33 PM

The trouble with pouring oil on troubled waters is that there's always liable to be some joker with a match...

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:17 PM

I have probably been as guilty as anyone of contributing to the general tone of animosity around here, but as Stilly River Sage points out, some of us are being stalked and harassed. Since sometime around the first of the year, I've had one particular person following me from thread to thread and posting derogatory comments shortly after I post. And I'm not the only one he does this to.

It's really unfortunate. On those rare occasions when not attempting to be disruptive, he seems to have the capacity to make reasonable contributions, but these posts represent only a minuscule percentage of the time he spends here. When he attacks me, I've tried to handle him pretty much the same way I would handle a heckler, attempting to turn the whole thing into a big joke, but it's become evident that he thrives on the attention. I've come to the conclusion that: a) it isn't going to get him off my back; and b) I'm beginning to feel that responding to him at all is undercutting my own credibility.

So it's back to basics. In the Newcomer's Guide (at the top of the list of thread titles) it says " . . . the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them."   

So—no more Mr. Nice Guy. No more attention from me. From here on, as far as I'm concerned, the guy doesn't exist. I recommend the same policy to all.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM

Sigh.

Don, I get followed by jerk anon guests too. There are a lot of people here who do.

I can't even believe you haven't yet been able to get your head around the concept of "ignore them". They WILL go away, guaranteed, if you simply NEVER respond to them. But you have to be consistent, and you have to ignore ALL obnoxious responses, not just the obnoxious responses of members, which is the fatal mistake most of you members who seem otherwise very intelligent, keep continuing to make.

It isn't about the identity of poster, it is about the content of the post. Ignore all posts that are rude, obnoxious, etc to you ESPECIALLY when those posts/comments are made by MEMBERS.

End the double standard of behavior here--which only each individual Mudcat member can do for themselves, and the dynamic here will change.

I have seen you, time and again, break your promise to yourself to not respond to the trolling post, but usually only when that post comes from an unidentified guest. You also don't hold members to the same standard as guests. You are one of the well liked and respected members here, so if people like you and McGrath and SRS and others could just get a grip on this, a whole lot of sniping, trolling, and flaming in this forum would end tomorrow.

Call your fellow members on this behavior, by politely calling them on it once, and then ignore them too.

You and too many influential others here seem to be obsessed with hanging onto your most beloved Mudcat myth, that of the anon guest monolith is the cause of all our forum's problems. Once you can free yourselves from that illusion, you could change your behavior, and most other posters' behavior would follow to conform with yours.

You forum members who are regulars, and respected by most, have a tremendous amount of power here that you consistently refuse to yield. It is the power of silence. The power of shunning those who behave badly. Change the forum by changing the way you react to others here, and demonstrate you are worthy of the admiration and respect of others here.

Please.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:39 PM

Hi, Don:

Yes, I'm sure we all know who you are referring to. I've also noticed that any thread that has a positive message is a target. It's no surprise to me that many of the people who love to come in and disrupt threads rarely start their own. Their desire is to destroy any positive conversation. Ignoring people who have nothing but contempt for others sometimes works. Unfortunately, sometimes it doesn't.

I think of all the good people I've met at Mudcat (you included, Don) who I rarely see around here anymore. The list would be too long to include in this posting, and I know I'd leave a lot of people off, out of forgetfullness, or just because I haven't gotten to know everyone in here. It's a shame that it has become so difficult to carry on a positive conversation in here, and I understand why so many of my friends rarely appear in a thread anymore. As more and more people wander away, my reason for coming in here becomes more and more uncertain.

Chalk it all up to some twisted concept of what freedom of speech is.
With freedom comes responsibility.

You're a good man Don, and I'm proud to know you.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 01:49 PM

One of the things I like about this forum is that all points of view are represented, some with clarity, some with passion and some with little thought behind them. But the most important thing for me is that here they are allowed to be expressed and answered. One person's acrimony may be another's rational point of view. Name calling always diminishes an argument but
sometimes in the heat of passion, it happens. When it does, I try to focus on the issue rather than the insult.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:03 PM

Excellent point Frank. And Don, I admire you too. It's that guest blindspot I'm worried about. :) I was honored to see you were the first to respond to my thread about US secularism, religion, and patriotism.

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:13 PM

GUEST, it was a naive case of "hope springs eternal," I guess. I thought I could lure him into a humorous exchange, and several times I challenged him to get serious, and offered an olive branch. He responded by stripping the leaves off and whipping me with it. It was dumb of me to persist as long as I did, and I feel a bit silly about it now. But this time, it sticks! No response out of me, and I hope everyone else does the same.

I'm looking forward to some good, serious discussion on the "US secularism, religion, and patriotism" thread. Thanks for starting it, and let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Can You Say Acrimony?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Aug 04 - 02:39 PM

"Please" - now that's a sensible enough name you signed off with there, GUEST of 22 Aug 04 - 01:34 PM, and a sensible post too. Now if you could just put that in the little space at the top of your posts so that you came in as "GUEST,Please" your posts wouldn't be likely to be misconstrued as coming from someone else.

Sigh...

...............

But agreed, the thing is to avoid being sucked into responding to people who are playing this kinds of games. Easier said than done, more especially when someone else has respoonded. When it's a name that's recognisable as a resident nasty, it's easy to avoid them; with nameless GUESTs it's harder, and the easiest thing is to skip them all on principle. But as "GUEST,Please" demonstrated just there, there are exceptions (touch wood).