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Origins: Spanish Ladies

DigiTrad:
SPANISH LADIES


Related threads:
Lyr Req: I've been a sea cook and I've been a ... (22)
Lyr Add: Spanish Lady (Helena Cinto) (51)
Lyr/Chords Req: Spanish Ladies (21)
Lyr Req: We'll rant and we'll roar, till the cops (1)
Spanish Ladies (10)


jmac@uglyduckling.com 04 Nov 98 - 04:26 PM
Jennifer Burdoo 04 Nov 98 - 04:36 PM
MMario 04 Nov 98 - 04:41 PM
Liam's Brother 04 Nov 98 - 04:57 PM
Pete M 04 Nov 98 - 05:03 PM
Art Thieme 04 Nov 98 - 05:16 PM
Alice 04 Nov 98 - 05:52 PM
dick greenhaus 04 Nov 98 - 06:25 PM
Pete M 04 Nov 98 - 06:36 PM
Alice 04 Nov 98 - 07:41 PM
Pete M 04 Nov 98 - 09:16 PM
Barry Finn 04 Nov 98 - 09:31 PM
Jack Hickman 05 Nov 98 - 12:00 AM
Catfeet 05 Nov 98 - 12:01 AM
dick greenhaus 05 Nov 98 - 12:10 PM
Bert 05 Nov 98 - 02:49 PM
Pete M 05 Nov 98 - 03:16 PM
Jon W. 05 Nov 98 - 05:39 PM
Snuffy 18 Apr 01 - 06:06 PM
Chicken Charlie 18 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM
Bernard 18 Apr 01 - 06:32 PM
Susanne (skw) 18 Apr 01 - 06:33 PM
Scuttlebutt 18 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 18 Apr 01 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 18 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM
Snuffy 19 Apr 01 - 08:40 AM
MARINER 20 Apr 01 - 01:59 AM
Mad Maudlin 03 Mar 03 - 01:21 PM
GUEST 03 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 03 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM
Mad Maudlin 03 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM
Schantieman 03 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 03 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM
Mad Maudlin 03 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM
Schantieman 03 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM
Schantieman 03 Mar 03 - 04:52 PM
Mad Maudlin 03 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM
Micca 03 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM
Raedwulf 03 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM
SINSULL 03 Mar 03 - 07:24 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 04 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM
Seamus Kennedy 05 Mar 03 - 12:29 AM
Penny S. 05 Mar 03 - 05:34 PM
Tattie Bogle 05 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM
Susanne (skw) 05 Mar 03 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,Keith A o Hertford,working 06 Mar 03 - 02:54 AM
Teribus 06 Mar 03 - 05:22 AM
greg stephens 06 Mar 03 - 06:08 AM
Mad Maudlin 07 Mar 03 - 03:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM
Tattie Bogle 09 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM
Mr Happy 04 Nov 05 - 02:58 PM
davidkiddnet 30 Jan 17 - 07:47 PM
ChanteyLass 30 Jan 17 - 09:36 PM
Brian Peters 19 Feb 17 - 11:31 AM
Lighter 19 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM
Brian Peters 20 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Feb 17 - 09:09 AM
Brian Peters 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,John Fannon 07 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM
Lighter 07 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM
Steve Gardham 07 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Hans 26 May 20 - 04:10 PM
Reinhard 26 May 20 - 08:08 PM
Lighter 07 Oct 23 - 11:31 AM
GUEST 11 Oct 23 - 07:00 PM
Lighter 11 Oct 23 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,rjm 12 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Oct 23 - 10:44 AM
Lighter 12 Oct 23 - 12:27 PM
Steve Gardham 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM
Lighter 13 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM
GUEST,groovy 13 Oct 23 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 23 - 03:56 AM
Gibb Sahib 14 Oct 23 - 05:22 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM
Lighter 14 Oct 23 - 11:45 AM
Lighter 14 Oct 23 - 11:53 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM
Lighter 14 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 23 - 03:14 AM
Lighter 15 Oct 23 - 07:51 AM
Steve Gardham 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM
GUEST 11 Oct 23 - 07:00 PM
GUEST,rjm 12 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,groovy 13 Oct 23 - 10:45 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 23 - 03:56 AM
GUEST 15 Oct 23 - 03:14 AM
Lighter 07 Oct 23 - 11:31 AM
Lighter 11 Oct 23 - 08:41 PM
Lighter 12 Oct 23 - 12:27 PM
Lighter 13 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM
Lighter 14 Oct 23 - 11:45 AM
Lighter 14 Oct 23 - 11:53 AM
Lighter 14 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM
Lighter 15 Oct 23 - 07:51 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Oct 23 - 10:44 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM
Steve Gardham 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM
Steve Gardham 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM
Steve Gardham 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM
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Lighter 14 Feb 24 - 04:38 PM
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Subject: Spanish Ladies
From: jmac@uglyduckling.com
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:26 PM

Driving me crazy. Any help would be appreciated. The db doesn't seem to be working for me.

I'm looking for the words to a song 'Spanish Ladies,' or something. Some of the lyrics are:

Farewell and adieu, all you fair Spanish ladies, Farewell and adieu, all you ladies of Spain; For we've got our orders, We're sailing for Boston...

And on. The only place I know of its' recording at the moment is in the movie 'Jaws,' where the old coot-shark hunter who owns the boat they go out on keeps muttering it out.

Any help? Thanks...


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Jennifer Burdoo
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:36 PM

There's a number of songs to the same meter and tune -- it's a common old sea song, perhaps better known as "We'll Rant and We'll Roar," or something like that. Here's a British version of the chorus:

We'll rant and we'll roar, all o'er the wild ocean
We'll rant and we'll roar, all o'er the wild seas
Until we strike soundings in the Channel of old England
From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues

I also know a whaling version with Mexico as the scene, found it on an Euan McColl LP, and the Australian 'Queensland Rover' lyrics also seem to be based on this tune. Check all of these out, as some of the lyrics at least will be similar.

Good luck.

Jennifer


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Subject: Lyr Add: SPANISH LADIES
From: MMario
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:41 PM

I do believe it goes something like this? (I can't get into the db either)
Various ren-faire artists have recorded this. Jim Hancock is one I know has it out

Spanish Ladies

- Traditional

Farewell and adieu to you, Spanish ladies,
Farewell and adieu to you, ladies of Spain;
For we've received orders to sail to old England,
But we hope in a short time to see you again.

/beginChorus:
We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors,
We'll rant and we'll roar all along the salt seas;
Until we strike soundings in the Channel of old England:
From Ushant to Scilly be thirty-five leagues.
/endChorus

Then we hove our ship to, with the wind from the sou'-west, boys
Then we hove our ship to, deep soundings to take;
With forty five fathoms and a wide sandy bottem
we hauled our main mast and up Channel did make.

Chorus

Now let every man drink off his full bumper,
Let every man drink off his full glass;
For we will be jolly and drown melancholy,
and her is a health to each true hearted lass.

Chorus 2x

MMario


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Subject: Lyr Add: SPANISH LADIES (from Stan Hugill)
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 04:57 PM

Hi jmac!

Here's a full text of one version...

SPANISH LADIES (from Stan Hugill)

Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies,
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain,
For we've received orders to sail for Old England
and we hope very soon for to see you again.

CHORUS:
We'll rant and we'll road like true British sailors,
We'll rant and we'll roar across the salt seas,
Till we strike soundings in the Channel of Old England,
From Ushant to Scilly is 34 leagues.

We have our ship to with the wind at sou'west, boys.
We have our ship to for to take soundings clear,
In 55 fathoms with a fine sandy bottom,
We filled our main tops'l, up Channel did steer.

The first land we made was a point called the Deadman,
Next Ramshead of Plymouth, Start, Portland and Wight.
We sailed them by Beachie, by Fairlee, by Dungness,
Then bore straight away for the South Foreland Light.

Now, the signal was made for the Grand Fleet to anchor.
We clewed up our tops'ls, stuck out tacks and sheets,
We stood by our stoppers, we brailed in our spankers,
And anchored ahead of the noblest of fleets.

Let every man here drink up his full bumper,
Let every man here drink up his full bowl.
And let us be jolly and drown melancholy,
Drink a health to each jovial and true-hearted soul.

from the late Stan Hugill's "Songs of the Sea."

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Pete M
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 05:03 PM

Umm, not quite Mario,
you get a white sand with a deep lead of Scilly (its picked up by the tallow in the bottom of the lead), and you square yards not haul masts, which hopefully are fairly well fixed!!
The whole point of the song is that it is an accurate aide memoir to Channel pilotage for inbound ships - Dodman point, Rame Head, Isle of Wight, Beachy Head, Fairlight, Dover, South Foreland, The Downs (an anchorage inside the Goodwin Sands where vessels commonly waited for a fair wind).

Jennifer, do you know if the Mexican version is translated into the important points for that coast?
I have always understood, although I don't have any evidence (perhaps Bruce can help?) that the song is very old, and dates from the time when sailing directions were learned by rote.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 05:16 PM

Robert Shaw (playing the old, grizzled shark hunter Quint)(?), sings a few verses of this song in the first of the several __JAWS__ films.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Alice
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 05:52 PM

I have an old songbook (yellow, brittle, falling apart) that has these verses

Does this sound correct, Pete?

We hove our ship to with the wind from sou'west boys,
We hove our ship to, deep soundings to take.
'Twas forty five fathoms with a white sandy bottom
So we squared our mainyard and up-channel did make.

Then the signal was made for the grand fleet to anchor,
And all in the Downs that night for to lie,
Let go your shank painter, let go your cat stopper!
Haul up your clewgarnets, let tacks and sheets fly!

alice


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 06:25 PM

The DT has four versions, as I dimly recall.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Pete M
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 06:36 PM

Yes Alice thats correct so far as I know. The verse in the middle is:
"The first land we sighted is call-ed The Dodman,
Next Rame Head off Plymouth, off Portsmouth, the Wight,
We sail-ed past Beachy, past Fairligh' an' Dover,
And then bore away for the South Foreland light."
Sorry about the hyphenated words, I don't know how to do accents in HTML fonts, and if you don't use the archaic pronunciation it mucks up the meter.

Shank painter and cat stopper refer to ropes holding the anchor to the cathead, clewgarnets haul the corners of the sail up to the yard. Actually you would have to free the sheets and tacks before clewing up, but we'll put that down to poetic licence. :-)

Another snippet of information is that this is one of the few songs recorded as being sung on RN vessels rather tham merchant navy. I think Tawney also mentions this in "Grey funnel lines".

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Alice
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 07:41 PM

I've liked this song ever since I discovered it in the old songbook I mentioned before. In spite of having a high voice, which is out of character for a sea song like this, I still like to sing it and think it is a fun one for sing-along with a group.

Pete, I'm glad you could clarify the details.

alice


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Pete M
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 09:16 PM

Just re-read the version(s) in the DT, and as posted by Dan above. They both mention Dungeness rather than Dover. To my mind this doesn't make sense, Dungeness and Romney Marsh are about 10 feet above sea level and would not be visible until you were about to run ashore. (Its different now of course with the lighthouse and the Nuclear power station - can't miss it!) You need to stand well out into the Channel after sighting Fairlight to avoid Dungeness, and the cliffs of Dover are the next obvious mark that you are clear of the hazard and can bear away for South Foreland to take you into the Downs.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 Nov 98 - 09:31 PM

Originally sung in the Royal Navy as a homeward bounder from the Mediterranean, then adopted by merchantmen as a capstan shanty, then by whalers out of New England, Australians, Newfoundlanders, etc. It appears in print as far back as 1769 from the logbook of the Nellie. From the"Oxford Book Of Folksongs" Roy Palmer. Barry


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Jack Hickman
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 12:00 AM

It's also a Newfoundland favourite. The chorus goes:
We'll Rant and we'll Roar like True Newfoundlanders
We'll Rant and Roar on deck and below
Until we see bottom between two sunkers
Then straight up the channel to Toslow we'll go

I'm sure there's somewhere out there who can post the NFLD version of the lyrics.

Jack Hickman


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Catfeet
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 12:01 AM

There are also about 10 verses from Nelson's era. They are detailed in a book I believe is called Men'O War. It is a compendium to a fictional series about Nelson's era by Patrick O'Brian. Catfeet


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 12:10 PM

Please. Please. Please. Before you post lyrics, check to see if we already have them. The Newfoundland version (Ryans and Pittmans) IS already in the databas


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Bert
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 02:49 PM

Pete,
There's a lighthouse at Dungeness. Last I heard it was powered by it's own small nuclear reactor.
But that's beside the point, they probably use it in the song because it's such a nice sounding name, It's got more resonance to it than Dover.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Pete M
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 03:16 PM

Hi Bert,
well actually there are two lighthouses at Dungeness, one decommissioned and open to the public, the other operational. The nuclear power station also has two reactors (A) and (B) From memory the large blob that's visible from sea is Dungeness B. I believe there was to have been a C reactor - possibly a fast breeder, but this was never implemented. Output of the stations is in the GigaWatt range, so they power it bit more than the lighthouse. It does seem a bit incongrous that a lighthouse two or three hundred yards from a power station has its own diesel generator for when the power fails! Anyone from that area with more up to date info?

My point was really that when the song was originally in common shipboard use, there was no naviational beacon on Dungeness and everyone would want to avoid it like the plague, especially as coming up Channel it would be a lee shore nine times out of ten; and that you would not, nor want to, "sight" it.

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Jon W.
Date: 05 Nov 98 - 05:39 PM

A fine song, adapted all over - I've got recordings of versions from New Bedford, Conneticut; the Pacific Ocean whalers with placenames from Mexico and Hawaii; and the Australian version which has to do with cattle drovers (not rovers) in Queensland - and each version has it's own charm.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:06 PM

Does anyone have the lyrics of the Pacific whalermen version? It seemed to be the only version sung at the Lancaster Maritime Festival last weekend?


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM

Omigod--That song was used in episode V ("Mutiny") of the Hornblower saga. The cuckoo captain sang it after they put him in a straight jacket. That was just on A&E last two weekends; I'm sure it will return seven or eight more times before the year is out.

CC


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Subject: Lyr Add: TALCAHUANO GIRLS
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:32 PM

Is this the one you mean?

TALCAHUANO GIRLS



  1. Oh, 'Ive been a sea-cook, and I've been a Clipperman,
    I can sing, I can dance, I can walk the jib-boom.
    I can handle a harpoon, and cut a fine figure
    Whenever I get in a boat's standing room.

    Chorus: We'll rant, and we'll roar
    Like true-born young whalermen
    We'll rant, and we'll roar
    On deck, and below
    Until we see bottom inside the two sinkers,
    Then straight up the channel, boys,
    To Huasco we'
  2. I was in Talcahuano last year, in a whaler,
    I bought some gold brooches from the girls in the bay,
    I bought me a pipe, and they called it a Meerschawm,
    But it melted like butter on a bright, shiny day.

  3. I went to a party last night in old Tumbes,
    They were plenty of girls there, as fine as you'd wish,
    There was one young maiden a-chewing tobacco
    Just like a young kitten a-chewing fresh fish!

  4. Farewell to you girls of old Talcahuano,
    Farewell to you girls of old Maui,
    Come, let us be merry, don't be melancholy!
    I can't marry you all, or in choky I'd be.


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Subject: Lyr Add: TALCAHUANO GIRLS
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 06:33 PM

Snuffy, you mean Talcahuano Girls. It seems to be neither in the DT nor in the Forum, so here you are. The tune is 'Spanish Ladies', of course.

TALCAHUANO GIRLS
(Trad)

Chorus:
We'll rant and we'll roar like true-born young whalermen
We'll rant and we'll roar on deck and below
Until we see bottom inside the two sinkers
And straight up the channel to Huasco we'll go

I was in Talcahuano last year in a whaler
I bought some gold brooches for the girls in the Bay
I bought me a pipe and they called it a meerscum
And it melted like butter on a hot shiny day

I went to a dance one night in old Tumbez
There was plenty of girls there as fine as you'd wish
There was one pretty maiden a-chewing tobacco
Just like a young kitten a-chewing fresh fish

Here's a health to the girls of old Talcahuano
A health to the maidens of far-off Maui
And let you be merry, don't be melancholy
I can't marry youse all, or in chokey I'd be

Oh I've been a sea-cook, and I've been a clipperman
I can sing, I can dance, I can walk the jib-boom
I can handle a harpoon and cut a fine figure
Whenever I get in a boat's standing room

[1967:] Chase of sperm and right whales, Pacific, early 19th century.
By no means all the oldtime whaling was done in northern waters. In the 1820s, for example, more than a hundred British ships, mostly out of Hull or London, were fishing in the spermwhale grounds round the Horn off the coast of Chile and Peru and taking the long, long run across the Pacific by way of Galapagos Island and the Marquesas, to Timor. The trip would last three years.
The song called Spanish Ladies was on the go among seamen in Samuel Pepys' day, but by the 1840s, Captain Marryat (author of 'Midshipman Easy') reported it as 'now almost forgotten'. Nevertheless it survived well in countless parodies (one of them associated with Australian drovers, as it happens). The present version belongs to the rowdy South- Seamen [...]. Talcahuano lies south of Valparaiso in Chile; Huasco is about midway between 'Vallypo' and Antofagasta; Tumbez is on the Gulf of Guayaquil, near the Equator: odorous ports, all three. (Notes A. L. Lloyd, 'Leviathan!')


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Scuttlebutt
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:00 PM

To respond to various points raisd here

Snuffy - if you were in the Wagon and Horses on sunday evening you would have heard Hughie Jones singin spanish ladies (to the audience and down the phone line to New Zealand) as per Dans version above.

If anyone is interested go to www.chanteycabin.co.uk stan Hugills book is available - i also have theUffa Fox version available - send me a private email if you are interested

Some years ago The Spinners gor the admiralty to check the charted distane fron Ushant to Scilly and the official version is 34 leagues - not 35 as is more usual

May you always run before the wind

Jan L


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 08:58 PM

We just finished this on rec.music.folk, where I pointed out that it was on the Bodley Ballads website, and (6 verses) with music in Wm. Chappell's PMOT.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM

"Spanish Ladies" (We'll rant and we'll roar) versions are still pouring into rec.music.folk.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 08:40 AM

Bernard and Suzanne, many thanks for the lyrics.

Jan L - I never got to see Hughie. We were in the Mariners Sunday night when he was at the Wagon. And we were in the Wagon Monday lunchtime when he was in the Mariners. But I did buy one of Hughies CDs and have been playing it on the way to and from work this week.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: MARINER
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 01:59 AM

The song also appears in the collection "Songs of the Wexford Coast". It was collected from an old sailor in 1943 and is similar to the English versions mentioned above except for the last verse, which goes. We ran up a signal for the grand fleet to anchor The signal was made for the grand fleet to moor Stand by your ring stopper, clear off your shank painter If we've trouble at sea, we'll be happy ashore.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies - pron. of place names?
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:21 PM

Hi all,

I've just learned this great song with the help of a MIDI file and the lyrics from the Digitrad, but I'm not sure about the pronunciation of some of the place names. Don't want to show that I'm only an ignorant German right away :), so could you please help me with them?

Deadman, Ramshead, Plymouth, Start, Portland and Wight are no problem, as is Ushant, but what about Beachie, Fairlee, Dungness and Scilly?
My guess is that Beachie and Fairlee are pronounced as one would expect (like "beachy" and "fairly"), but what about Dungness? Does the first syllable rhyme with "plunge"? And is "Scilly" pronounced as "skilly"? (Please feel free at my stupid questions, but to my experience the pronunciation of place names doesn't always follow the rules. It's the same in Germany, too!)


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:37 PM

Scilly = Silly


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 01:40 PM

You're right on Beachy, Fairley and Dungeness .... but Scilly is Silly!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 02:52 PM

Thanks, GUEST and Martin! I *knew* there was a catch somewhere :)


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Schantieman
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM

Apparently (someone told me this, so I can't vouch for its authenticity) the Spanish ladies were the wives that British sailors had married while stationed in Spain for several years. They were forced to leave them (and the resultant children) behind when they sailed, without any means of support.   Apparently the wailing from the harbour could be heard miles out at sea.

I think 'Fairley' is actually 'Fairlight' is it not? And 'Deadman' is surely Dodman Point in Cornwall.

You obviously have extensive experience of sailing in the Channel, Pete - are you a yachtie or do you do it for a living?

Steve


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 03:57 PM

Fairlight and Dodman are correct - but "Deadman" appears in many versions.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

Thanks for the correction! I guess this kind of corruption of place names often happens when a song is heard rather than read on broadsheet etc. Those names would mean nothing to someone who doesn't know them, so he might mishear or remember them wrongly...Are the others (I mean the probably lesser known ones, like Start and Beachie) correct, though?
Interesting story, that one about the "Spanish Ladies" - no matter if it is true or not...


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Schantieman
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:47 PM

Start Point is in east Cornwall (and has a light). Beachy Head in Sussex is a big white(ish) cliff but since big chunks fall off it from time to time (last year, for instance) there's not much point building a lighthouse there!

(pause to check a chart....)


S


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Schantieman
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 04:52 PM

Well, hush my mouth.

There is a light there, either down on the foreshore below the cliff or right on the edge. Difficult to tell from the 1:10000 OS map via Multimap.com and I haven't got a proper chart handy. I don't remember whether I saw it when we sailed that way!   Let's hope that bit doesn't collapse!


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

Hmm, sounds like a bad place for a lighthouse indeed! I know a similar place in northern Spain, soft red rock, and at night you'd hear those big chunks falling off and dropping into the sea as you drift off to sleep. (The fun part is, though, that this soft red rock is rich in small but pretty amethysts...)
Thanks for the info!


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Micca
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:14 PM

As given above all of these are headlands or prominent features on the english channel coast, the bit of this song that has ALWAYS puzzled me is this,
" We hove our ship to with the wind from South west boys"

but the Ushant to Scilly and the list above suggests that they are Beating up the Channel against a Nor'Easterly as with a Fair South Westerly you would run before the wind and miss out some of the headlands! After rounding Ushant you certainly Would NOT head for the Scillies far to the West, but with the wind free run for Start Point in Devon or either Portland Bill or the Isle of Wight. The sequence of headlands as written only makes sense if you are beating in broad tacks against a NE wind and making a fresh landfall at the end of each tack!!


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 05:44 PM

?? Not sure what you're getting at here? The chorus is "From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues". It doesn't say which way you're going.

It would not be unreasonable, surely, to heave to in order to get an accurate sounding. After which you start beating up the Channel. The song is a song, with a loosely accurate progression of landmarks that a mariner of the time would recognise.

That's it. Where's the problem?


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Mar 03 - 07:24 PM

Most basic problem: why would anyone say farewell or adieu to a Spanish lady? Wouldn't "Hasta la vista, baby"(spelling?) be more appropriate? Or "Buenos noches"?


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 04 Mar 03 - 07:42 PM

The "Shank painter" secures the anchor's shank outside of the foremast rigging (shrouds and backstays) letting the shank painter go lets the anchor swing from the cathead

I sing the "New Bedford "version. I used to use this for a theme song.
Hopefully the anchor chain or cable is attached to the anchor when one does these things.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 12:29 AM

Mudcat's very own Riggy Rackin has a fine version of this song (and many more) on his new CD Nautical, Pastoral & Pub Song. It's well worth getting. You can contact him at riggy@riggy.com, or I think you can get it from Camsco.

Seamus


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Penny S.
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:34 PM

The Beachy Head lighthouse is below the cliff at sea level (well, its base is). The first lighthouse was to the west of the main cliff, called Belle Tout, on the top of a lower cliff, but it had to be abandoned, and the remaining structure was, last year, hydraulically shifted away from the cliff edge to prevent its loss into the sea.

You may have to wait a bit for an answer from Pete M, as he hasn't posted for some time, but I think he has been sailing larger than yachty things off New Zealand. He used to sail a dinghy in Dover Harbour.

Penny


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 07:04 PM

For a "different" version listen to John Tams: different tune and great arrangement.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:16 PM

Mad Maudlin, as you are German like me, may I add that Dungeness has nothing to do with 'dung' but the g is pronounced as in 'danger'? BTW, what's your post code?


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford,working
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 02:54 AM

The John Tams song I know Is a diferrent song and story, but borrowing the tune and chorus. He sings of a soldier leaving his love behind after the Peninsular War.
Farewell and adieu,
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 05:22 AM

The chorus I learned in the Navy went something like:

"We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors
We'll rant and we'll roam across the salt main
For Hawkes to command in the Channel of old England
So farewell Spanish Ladies 'til we see you again."

I think at the time Minorca was occupied by the British

The reference to "Ushant to Scilly" in the better known and more commonly sung chorus has nothing to do with the direction the ship was sailing in. In most conflicts with France the main task of the Channel Fleet was to blockade the French ports - a prolonged and extremely boring task. At times the weather caused the blockading squadrons off station. The distance between Ushant and Scilly was burned into the minds of Royal Navy sailors as the ships ran for shelter in Torbay only to beat back to regain their blockade stations.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Mar 03 - 06:08 AM

I watched them moving the Belle Tout lighthouse back from the cliff edge on Beachy head. Fascinating bit of engineering. It went very...........very........sloooooow....ly


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 03:49 AM

Hi Susanne,

Thanks for the hint, I heard the name Dungeness before, though :)
My postcode is 54595, and yours? (Please feel free to PM me, and then I can give you my e-mail address)


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM

No one picked me up on John Tam's Spanish Lady.
Of course he did not use the chorus, but the first verse which he uses as his last. And very pleasing it is.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Mar 03 - 07:54 AM

Thanks for the historical info re the John Tams version: I agree, a must-listen!


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Subject: RE: Spanish Ladies
From: Mr Happy
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 02:58 PM

I didn't know where the places mentioned in Talcahuano Girls were.

For anyone else who also didn't know, they're in Chile.

See here http://portfocus.com/chile/talcahuano/


& Huasco here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atacama_Region


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 07:47 PM

A ballad by the name "Spanish Ladies" was registered in the English Stationer's Company on December 14, 1624, however the song with its present lyrics was more likely of the Napoleonic era, probably created during the First Coalition (1793–96) when the British navy carried supplies to Spain to aid its resistance to revolutionary France. Also perhaps in the later Peninsular War when British soldiers were transported to Spain to assist fighting against French occupation but after victory forbidden to bring home with them any Spanish wives, lovers or children.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 30 Jan 17 - 09:36 PM

My two cents!
In Chapter 40, Midnight, Forecastle, of Moby Dick, Herman Melville wrote
"Farewell and adieu to you, Spanish ladies!
   Farewell and adieu to you, ladies of Spain!
   Our captain's commanded! - "
At that point the singing is interrupted by the First Nantucket Sailor's request that they join him in singing something cheerier. He then leads a version of The Bold Harpooneer.
At Mystic Seaport, members of the chantey staff often sing Talcahuano Girls.
Why say Farewell and Adieu to Spanish ladies? Maybe the songwriter knew English and French but not Spanish.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 11:31 AM

Is there any source apart from Bert Lloyd for the 'Talcahuano Girls' version of this song? The lyrics (posted above) look in places suspiciously similar to the Newfoundland version 'The Ryans and the Pittmans'

Readers of the 'Bertsongs' thread will know where I'm going with this!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Feb 17 - 04:18 PM

No, Brian. There isn't.

Nor does there seem to be a traditional source for MacColl's version (on the Lloyd-MacColl album "There She Blows!") of "The Lowlands of Holland" that's about the "cold, cold coast of Greenland and the sperm whale fishery."

Pity.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 05:01 AM

Thanks Lighter. I used to sing that version of 'Lowlands of Holland', and always wondered where the 'cold place where grows no green' came from. Not very accurate whether the song refers to the Netherlands, the Dutch East Indies or Australia!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 09:09 AM

Ah but,
This is the statement of the girl left in England who very likely had no concept of what New Holland was really like.

Here are the appropriate stanzas from an early version. (c1776)

New Holland is a barren place,
In it there grows no GRAIN,
Nor yet no habitation,
Within for to remain.
The sugar canes are plenty,
the wine drops from the tree,
And the lowlands of Holland
Hath twin'd my love and me.

New Holland is a bonny place,
But it is scant of men,
Yet to conquer New-England,
Is what they do intend:
For there is none can win them,
So well they know the sea,
And the lowlands of Holland,
Hath etc.

I hardly think she can be talking about Holland and New Holland in the same breath so we probably assume she is referring to merchant ships going to Australia and America. The older song seems to have nothing to do with being pressed or whaling.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Feb 17 - 02:01 PM

Thanks, Steve, that shines a bit of light on it.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,John Fannon
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

I have found this thread most useful when seeking some historical background notes for 'Spanish Ladies' which we intend to sing at a forthcoming event this month. Thanks to all.

I have studied the geographical position of the landmarks mentioned in the song. 'Fairlight' has had many spellings over the years. The village is mentioned in records of 1220 as FARLEGH. Since then, many changes have occurred in the spelling, eg. in 1291 it was FARLEIGH; 1316, FEYRLEIGH; 1535, FARLEY; 1701,FAYRLIGHT; 1738, FARLEY and in 1823 the spelling is recorded as FAIRLIGHT.

Dover and South Foreland are so close together that one seems superfluous. I think that 'We sailed on by Beachy and Fairlight and Dungeness' to be more logical.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM

John, great research.

I've always thought Dungeness was likely to be the older name, simply because it's more obscure than the world-famous "Dover" and thus harder to remember.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

Just a little additional info to the earliest version we appear to have;
the 1769 whaler's log version is in Huntington's second volume of whaling log songs The Gam, 2014, p144. The interesting thing about this version is that as one might expect almost all of the place names are garbled in some way but still recognisable. What this tells us is that the version comes from oral tradition and must have passed through several minds and mouths before reaching the source given here. I would hazard a guess that that passage of time and geographical space, taking into account the relatively poor communications of that era would give us a space of at least 10 years from its composition. One would expect that it would have appeared in some nautical collection soon after its composition, but this has not yet surfaced.

Here's the appropriate stanza with the place names. Makes an interesting mondegreen study.

The first land we made it was called the deadman
the ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white
Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys
Until we roused the Forlan light.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,Hans
Date: 26 May 20 - 04:10 PM

Does anyone know where what the expression means "until we see bottom inside the two sinkers" in the Talcahuano version


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Reinhard
Date: 26 May 20 - 08:08 PM

Navigation by depth sounding, see the thread Where are 'The Two Sinkers/Sunkers'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 11:31 AM

Robert Bell & James Henry Dixon, eds. "Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England" (1857):

                      THE SPANISH LADIES.

THIS song is ancient , but we have no means of ascertaining at what period it was written. Captain Marryat, in his novel of Poor Jack, introduces it, and says it is old. It is a general favourite. The air is plaintive, and in the minor key. See [Chappell's] Popular Music.

FAREWELL, and adieu to you Spanish ladies,
Farewell, and adieu to you ladies of Spain!
For we've received orders for to sail for old England,
But we hope in a short time to see you again.

We'll rant and we'll roar* like true British heroes,
We'll rant and we'll roar across the salt seas,
Until we strike soundings in the channel of old England;
From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues.

Then we hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys,
We hove our ship to , for to strike soundings clear;
We got soundings in ninety-five fathom, and boldly
Up the channel of old England our course we did steer.

The first land we made it was called the Deadman,
Next, Ram's head off Plymouth, Start, Portland, and Wigh ;
We passed by Beachy, by Fairleigh, and Dungeness,
And hove our ship to, off the South Foreland light.

Then a signal was made for the grand fleet to anchor
All in the Downs, that night for to sleep;
Then stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters,
Haul all your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets.

So let every man toss off a full bumper,
Let every man toss off his full bowl;
We'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy,
So here's a good health to all true-hearted souls!


"*Corrupted in modern copies into ‘we'll range and we'll rove.’ The reading in the text is the old reading. The phrase occurs in several old songs."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 07:00 PM

It was likely Melville's favorite. Chapter 40 of "Moby Dick" has the midnight watch singing this. It's mentioned again in “White Jacket,” and the poem “Tom Deadlight."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 08:41 PM

A uniquely technical and elaborate text, from the Newcastle Journal (July 11, 1857):

Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies!
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain!
For we've received orders for to sail from Gibraltar,
But we hope in due time for to see you again.

We cleared the Straits with both sheets a-flowing
The wind keeping aft, for St. Vincent's we lay;
We bowled along by the bluff Rock of Lisbon,
And Finisterre showed when we'd got to Biscay.

We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors,
We'll rant and we'll roar all on the salt seas,
Until we strike soundings in the Channel of Old England;
From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues.

We hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys;
We hove our ship to, deep soundings to clear;
We struck ninety fathom, then filled our main topsail,
And smack through the chops of the Channel did steer.

The first land we made it was called the Dodmon,
From Ram-head it bears about west and by south;
The botttom is reg'lar on hake's teeth and gravel
And the lead is the guide when you're bound to Plymouth.

So the Start Point we passed, and the steep Bill of Portland
Swanage Bay, and back of the Island of Wight;
We sailed by Beechey, by Fairlee, and Dungeness,
And then we bore up to the South Foreland light.

Then the signal 'twas made for the grand fleet to anchor,
All in the Downs, that night for to meet;
So stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters,
Haul up your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets.

We let go our best bower in eight fathoms water,
In eight fathoms water our anchor we dropped,
Straightway from the tier they paid out with a good will,
We veered half a cable, then bitted and stopped.

Now let every man enjoy his full bumper,
To wives and to sweethearts let us finish the bowl;
For we will be jolly, and drown melancholy:
So here's to the health of each true-hearted soul.

(I suspect this is a rewrite, but it's a good one.)

"Hakes's teeth," acc. to Oxford, refers to the "long tubular or tusk-shaped shell of a scaphopod mollusc, esp. that of a mollusc belonging to the genus Dentalium.... The appearance of these shells on the sounding-lead was formerly an aid to navigation in British waters."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,rjm
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM

Thanks Lighter. I used to sing that version of 'Lowlands of Holland', and always wondered where the 'cold place where grows no green' came from. Not very accurate whether the song refers to the Netherlands, the Dutch East Indies or Australia! quote
maybe it is allegorical a reference to ORANGERY[PROTESTANTISM]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 10:44 AM

I see from my indexes I haven't made a detailed study of different versions, so unless someone else has already done this, I'll make a start this week. Jon, I agree the Newcastle Journal must surely be a rewrite. I am hazarding a guess that the original would have been written by a Naval officer such as Capt. James Sumaurez who wrote the Nottingham and Mars ballad, but much earlier of course. I will start with the Pitts broadside and the Gam version. Flagging up anything else earlier than 1800 would be useful.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 12:27 PM

The rhyming of "Plymouth" with "south" smacks of conscious archaism, but I'm no expert on this.

Oddly, the Newcastle Journal credits Bell & Dixon, which had recently been published.

In Lloyd's note on "Talcahuana Girls," "countless" means one or two, and "belongs to" means "should have been sung by but wasn't."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM

So far I've checked the broadsides and the weirdest thing is the further you go back in time the more corrupt the versions become!! All I can suggest so far is that the later broadsides, even though corrupt to some degree, have gone back to more accurate versions from oral tradition. All earlier printed versions and the 1769 show strong evidence of oral tradition. My guess is that there was a readily available to Naval personnel original version on the go that spawned all of these oral versions that then found their way onto broadsides. We really must be talking about c1750 at the latest, so to our Naval experts, what would the British Navy be doing in Spain in the early 18th century, and presumably under friendly circumstances?

BTW in my previous post, where I put 'much earlier', that was a senior moment on my part, of course Phil Sumaurez (not James) could easily have written it, the Nottingham and Mars incident was 1746.

BTW2, the sloop Nellie in 1769 was on a merchant voyage from Dartmouth to London and the journal was Captain Peter Pease's, so passing though the Channel.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM

A few more observations having compared all of the earlier versions.

The chorus is just given as the second stanza in most early versions, but Huntington 1769 gives it as the chorus. Could this just be Huntington bowing to modern versions? Chappell and the broadsides and Dixon just have it as the second verse. Anyone got access to the original 1769 manuscript?

The theme of the song is not that exciting in terms of folksong. One can understand it being sung by RN officers aboard along with Dibdin songs, but it tells of no Naval engagement, is a bit jingoistic, but generally just describes a pretty uneventful passage.

The actual text is quite stable apart from the obvious mondegreens.

There is an important difference in the 1769 version. It lacks the second stanza and expands the last stanza into 2 stanzas. One could easily imagine that being the case with the original and because this is so repetitive it was shunted into one stanza by later singers/printers. I'll post this version shortly.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM

Adieu to you, you ladies of Lisbon
Adieu to you, you ladies of Spain
For we've received orders to sail to old England
We hope on a short time to be with you again.

Chorus:
We'll rant and we'll roar, boys, like brave English heroes
We'll rant and we'll roar upon the salt seas
Until we strike soundings in the channel of Old England
From Nohant to Scully is thirty-five leagues.

The first land we made it was called the deadman
The ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white
Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys
Until we roused the Forlan light.

The signal being made our grand fleet to anchor
All in the down that night for to sleep
It was stand by your stoppers let go your shank painters
Haul up your clew garnets stick out your fore sheets.

Let every man loft of his full bumper
Let every man taste of his full bowl
It will furnish the blood it will drive away all sorrow
So here is a health to all seamen so bold.

It will drive away all of your sorrows
it will drive away all melancholy
So here's a good health to all brave hearted and bold
Here's a health to each jovial and true hearted soul.

Sloop Nellie, 1769, Captain Peter Pease, on passage from Dartmouth to London.

Another interesting point is that he uses correct terminology for the ship's furniture, but gets just about all of the geographical names wrong, which is what you might expect from a sailor not familiar with the geography.

In answer to a query in Mariner's Mirror November 1919 there ensued a series of replies going up to October 2021 which at one point provoked a short study of comparing different versions. An interesting response came in February 1920 from one L. G. C. Laughton, whose father, Sir John Laughton, told him 'that it was written and sung in the Grand Fleet under Russell when it first wintered on the coast of Spain (at Cadiz) in 1694/5. from internal evidence it seems fairly certain that it must have belonged to that war, when you had the use of Spanish ports, and when the Grand Fleet had not been split up, as happened soon afterwards, by the need of sending fleets and squadrons all over the world. And the song being so old, it is quite certain that 'spankers' ought never to be introduced into the last verse but one to rhyme with 'anchors' for the spanker was not introduced till the very end of the 18th century.'

This would fit in nicely with the garbled 1769 version, the song being about 70 years old then.

There are some responses on the history of the tune which I will collate later, with some suggestion of an Irish influence.

NB: st1 'on', and chorus 'Nohant' and 'Scully' are quite likely misinterpretations of the ms.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

Great work, Steve.

But even if the song refers to the 17th century, it may not have been written or at least in circulation till much later. (That would explain "anchor/ spanker.")

In any case it's surprising that such a good song should have existed from at least 1769 and have left so little trace for so long.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM

Well we know it was popular amongst officers in the RN, but I'm not so sure how popular it was amongst merchant seamen. 'Good song'. Well, it has a great tune, and it has been adapted to other circumstances. I'll know more when I've looked at all of the sources.

The tune has similarities with the old 'Derry Down' (King John and the Abbot of Canterbury) probably of the same vintage. This tune is arguably the most used tune ever in the western world, but you hardly ever hear it nowadays. Fashions come and go I suppose.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:45 AM

An orangery a place in which oranges are grown. The 'appropriate' word would be Orangism (or Orangeism) but that term is not synonymous with Protestantism.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 03:56 AM

It is in the island of Ireland,hence the Orange Order,and green is associated with catholici
FROM WIK
Ihe Loyal Orange Institution, commonly known as the Orange Order, is an international Protestant fraternal order based in Northern Ireland and primarily associated with Ulster Protestants. It also has lodges in England, Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, as well as in parts of the Commonwealth of Nations and the United States.[1][2][3] The Orange Order was founded by Ulster Protestants in County Armagh in 1795, during a period of Protestant–Catholic sectarian conflict, as a fraternity sworn to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. The all-island Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland was established in 1798. Its name is a tribute to the Dutch-born Protestant king William of Orange, who defeated Catholic king James II in the Williamite–Jacobite War (1689–1691). The Order is best known for its yearly marches, the biggest of which are held on or around 12 July (The Twelfth), a public holiday in Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:22 AM

Sorry if you already have this one...

“The Man-of-War’s Man.” [chapter] Blackwood’s Edinburgh Magazine 11.60 (Jan. 1822).


Song verses smatter the narrative. On page 20, there is

//
Farewell, and adieu to your grand Spanish ladies,
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain,
For we've received orders to sail for Old England,
But we hope in short time for to see you again.
//

After a few other fragments, there's this, which may belong to the same song

//
Then we'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy,
Our spirits to cherish, our hopes, and our lives,
And we'll pay all our debts with a flying foretop-sail,
And so bid adieu to our sweethearts and wives.
//


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM

Thanks, Gibb
The first line of that last verse is definitely in our song. Being such a popular song in the RN and probably a century old by then, it was probably revised several times, that is if the writer wasn't using his own creative abilities there. However, the first verse is almost verbatim the regular versions.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:45 AM

Bell & Dixon's text appeared earlier and similarly without provenance in the Percy Society's "Early English Poetry. Ballads" Vol. XVII (1846), which was edited by Dixon.

This printing includes the note about the "plaintive tune" and "Poor Jack" (1840).

Captain Marryat (1792-1848) gives the whole song (with one or two slightly variant lines). "Poor Jack" is set around 1800. According to the narrator, "[T]his song was very popular at that time among the seamen, and is now almost forgotten." Therefore "I shall, by inserting it here, for a short time rescue it from oblivion."


Chappell's "Collection of English National Airs" (1838) includes the minor/modal tune, the first stanza (with "fine Spanish ladies"), and the note:

"A popular old Sea Song, contributed by Lord Vernon. It is to be regretted that his Lordship could only recollect a portion of the words."

Presumably the fifth Baron Vernon (1803-1866) is meant; otherwise Chappell should have written "the late Lord Vernon" (1779-1835).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:53 AM

A presumably ersatz Yankee version can be heard in the background of the "Moby Dick" episode of the cable series "Great Books" (1996):


        Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies.
        Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain.
        Our ship’s received orders, we sail for New England—
        But we hope in a short time to see you again.
                
        We’ll rant and we’ll roar, like true Yankee sailormen.
        We’ll rant and we’ll roar on deck and below.
        Until we sight Gay Head and old Martha’s Vineyard,
        Then straight up the channel to New Bedford we’ll go.
         
        I’ve been a sea cook and I’ve been a clipper man...
        [more inaudible]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM

Thanks, Jon
Just about everything we've written here was in Stuart Frank's book 'Jolly Sailors Bold'. Never Mind. I've got all of the versions together now. A hypothetical ur version shouldn't be too difficult as versions are mostly very stable.

The minor tune. Anyone else noted similarities with the tune for Corpus Christi Carol (Bells of Paradise) and the early tune for Hunting the Wren (Milder to Malder)?

The 'I've been a seacook' line is in the whaleman's rewrite.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM

Sung by an actual Spanish lady. Very nice!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HApnGBRjVmU


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 03:14 AM

Was it not the favourite song of Cecil Sharp?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 07:51 AM

Steve, thanks for reminding me about "Jolly Sailors Bold"! I actually forgot that I have it. Somewhere.

I've also canvassed ECCO for key phrases like "Spanish ladies," "rant an we'll roar/ rove," and "Ushant to Scilly" without finding another 18th century text.

Nothing in the 17th either (EEBO) but Deloney's 1695 ballad "The Spanish Ladies Love," which bears no relationship beyond the title and a "Captain."

GUEST, it's certainly one my favorites.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM

I love the modal tune but I have sung it to both.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 07:00 PM

It was likely Melville's favorite. Chapter 40 of "Moby Dick" has the midnight watch singing this. It's mentioned again in “White Jacket,” and the poem “Tom Deadlight."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,rjm
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 03:24 AM

Thanks Lighter. I used to sing that version of 'Lowlands of Holland', and always wondered where the 'cold place where grows no green' came from. Not very accurate whether the song refers to the Netherlands, the Dutch East Indies or Australia! quote
maybe it is allegorical a reference to ORANGERY[PROTESTANTISM]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:45 AM

An orangery a place in which oranges are grown. The 'appropriate' word would be Orangism (or Orangeism) but that term is not synonymous with Protestantism.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 03:56 AM

It is in the island of Ireland,hence the Orange Order,and green is associated with catholici
FROM WIK
Ihe Loyal Orange Institution, commonly known as the Orange Order, is an international Protestant fraternal order based in Northern Ireland and primarily associated with Ulster Protestants. It also has lodges in England, Scotland and the Republic of Ireland, as well as in parts of the Commonwealth of Nations and the United States.[1][2][3] The Orange Order was founded by Ulster Protestants in County Armagh in 1795, during a period of Protestant–Catholic sectarian conflict, as a fraternity sworn to maintain the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland. The all-island Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland was established in 1798. Its name is a tribute to the Dutch-born Protestant king William of Orange, who defeated Catholic king James II in the Williamite–Jacobite War (1689–1691). The Order is best known for its yearly marches, the biggest of which are held on or around 12 July (The Twelfth), a public holiday in Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 03:14 AM

Was it not the favourite song of Cecil Sharp?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 23 - 11:31 AM

Robert Bell & James Henry Dixon, eds. "Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England" (1857):

                      THE SPANISH LADIES.

THIS song is ancient , but we have no means of ascertaining at what period it was written. Captain Marryat, in his novel of Poor Jack, introduces it, and says it is old. It is a general favourite. The air is plaintive, and in the minor key. See [Chappell's] Popular Music.

FAREWELL, and adieu to you Spanish ladies,
Farewell, and adieu to you ladies of Spain!
For we've received orders for to sail for old England,
But we hope in a short time to see you again.

We'll rant and we'll roar* like true British heroes,
We'll rant and we'll roar across the salt seas,
Until we strike soundings in the channel of old England;
From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues.

Then we hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys,
We hove our ship to , for to strike soundings clear;
We got soundings in ninety-five fathom, and boldly
Up the channel of old England our course we did steer.

The first land we made it was called the Deadman,
Next, Ram's head off Plymouth, Start, Portland, and Wigh ;
We passed by Beachy, by Fairleigh, and Dungeness,
And hove our ship to, off the South Foreland light.

Then a signal was made for the grand fleet to anchor
All in the Downs, that night for to sleep;
Then stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters,
Haul all your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets.

So let every man toss off a full bumper,
Let every man toss off his full bowl;
We'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy,
So here's a good health to all true-hearted souls!


"*Corrupted in modern copies into ‘we'll range and we'll rove.’ The reading in the text is the old reading. The phrase occurs in several old songs."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 08:41 PM

A uniquely technical and elaborate text, from the Newcastle Journal (July 11, 1857):

Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies!
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain!
For we've received orders for to sail from Gibraltar,
But we hope in due time for to see you again.

We cleared the Straits with both sheets a-flowing
The wind keeping aft, for St. Vincent's we lay;
We bowled along by the bluff Rock of Lisbon,
And Finisterre showed when we'd got to Biscay.

We'll rant and we'll roar like true British sailors,
We'll rant and we'll roar all on the salt seas,
Until we strike soundings in the Channel of Old England;
From Ushant to Scilly is thirty-five leagues.

We hove our ship to, with the wind at sou’-west, boys;
We hove our ship to, deep soundings to clear;
We struck ninety fathom, then filled our main topsail,
And smack through the chops of the Channel did steer.

The first land we made it was called the Dodmon,
From Ram-head it bears about west and by south;
The botttom is reg'lar on hake's teeth and gravel
And the lead is the guide when you're bound to Plymouth.

So the Start Point we passed, and the steep Bill of Portland
Swanage Bay, and back of the Island of Wight;
We sailed by Beechey, by Fairlee, and Dungeness,
And then we bore up to the South Foreland light.

Then the signal 'twas made for the grand fleet to anchor,
All in the Downs, that night for to meet;
So stand by your stoppers, let go your shank-painters,
Haul up your clew-garnets, stick out tacks and sheets.

We let go our best bower in eight fathoms water,
In eight fathoms water our anchor we dropped,
Straightway from the tier they paid out with a good will,
We veered half a cable, then bitted and stopped.

Now let every man enjoy his full bumper,
To wives and to sweethearts let us finish the bowl;
For we will be jolly, and drown melancholy:
So here's to the health of each true-hearted soul.

(I suspect this is a rewrite, but it's a good one.)

"Hakes's teeth," acc. to Oxford, refers to the "long tubular or tusk-shaped shell of a scaphopod mollusc, esp. that of a mollusc belonging to the genus Dentalium.... The appearance of these shells on the sounding-lead was formerly an aid to navigation in British waters."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 12:27 PM

The rhyming of "Plymouth" with "south" smacks of conscious archaism, but I'm no expert on this.

Oddly, the Newcastle Journal credits Bell & Dixon, which had recently been published.

In Lloyd's note on "Talcahuana Girls," "countless" means one or two, and "belongs to" means "should have been sung by but wasn't."


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:56 AM

Great work, Steve.

But even if the song refers to the 17th century, it may not have been written or at least in circulation till much later. (That would explain "anchor/ spanker.")

In any case it's surprising that such a good song should have existed from at least 1769 and have left so little trace for so long.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:45 AM

Bell & Dixon's text appeared earlier and similarly without provenance in the Percy Society's "Early English Poetry. Ballads" Vol. XVII (1846), which was edited by Dixon.

This printing includes the note about the "plaintive tune" and "Poor Jack" (1840).

Captain Marryat (1792-1848) gives the whole song (with one or two slightly variant lines). "Poor Jack" is set around 1800. According to the narrator, "[T]his song was very popular at that time among the seamen, and is now almost forgotten." Therefore "I shall, by inserting it here, for a short time rescue it from oblivion."


Chappell's "Collection of English National Airs" (1838) includes the minor/modal tune, the first stanza (with "fine Spanish ladies"), and the note:

"A popular old Sea Song, contributed by Lord Vernon. It is to be regretted that his Lordship could only recollect a portion of the words."

Presumably the fifth Baron Vernon (1803-1866) is meant; otherwise Chappell should have written "the late Lord Vernon" (1779-1835).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:53 AM

A presumably ersatz Yankee version can be heard in the background of the "Moby Dick" episode of the cable series "Great Books" (1996):


        Farewell and adieu to you Spanish ladies.
        Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain.
        Our ship’s received orders, we sail for New England—
        But we hope in a short time to see you again.
                
        We’ll rant and we’ll roar, like true Yankee sailormen.
        We’ll rant and we’ll roar on deck and below.
        Until we sight Gay Head and old Martha’s Vineyard,
        Then straight up the channel to New Bedford we’ll go.
         
        I’ve been a sea cook and I’ve been a clipper man...
        [more inaudible]


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:33 PM

Sung by an actual Spanish lady. Very nice!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HApnGBRjVmU


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 07:51 AM

Steve, thanks for reminding me about "Jolly Sailors Bold"! I actually forgot that I have it. Somewhere.

I've also canvassed ECCO for key phrases like "Spanish ladies," "rant an we'll roar/ rove," and "Ushant to Scilly" without finding another 18th century text.

Nothing in the 17th either (EEBO) but Deloney's 1695 ballad "The Spanish Ladies Love," which bears no relationship beyond the title and a "Captain."

GUEST, it's certainly one my favorites.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 10:44 AM

I see from my indexes I haven't made a detailed study of different versions, so unless someone else has already done this, I'll make a start this week. Jon, I agree the Newcastle Journal must surely be a rewrite. I am hazarding a guess that the original would have been written by a Naval officer such as Capt. James Sumaurez who wrote the Nottingham and Mars ballad, but much earlier of course. I will start with the Pitts broadside and the Gam version. Flagging up anything else earlier than 1800 would be useful.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 04:03 PM

So far I've checked the broadsides and the weirdest thing is the further you go back in time the more corrupt the versions become!! All I can suggest so far is that the later broadsides, even though corrupt to some degree, have gone back to more accurate versions from oral tradition. All earlier printed versions and the 1769 show strong evidence of oral tradition. My guess is that there was a readily available to Naval personnel original version on the go that spawned all of these oral versions that then found their way onto broadsides. We really must be talking about c1750 at the latest, so to our Naval experts, what would the British Navy be doing in Spain in the early 18th century, and presumably under friendly circumstances?

BTW in my previous post, where I put 'much earlier', that was a senior moment on my part, of course Phil Sumaurez (not James) could easily have written it, the Nottingham and Mars incident was 1746.

BTW2, the sloop Nellie in 1769 was on a merchant voyage from Dartmouth to London and the journal was Captain Peter Pease's, so passing though the Channel.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 08:29 AM

A few more observations having compared all of the earlier versions.

The chorus is just given as the second stanza in most early versions, but Huntington 1769 gives it as the chorus. Could this just be Huntington bowing to modern versions? Chappell and the broadsides and Dixon just have it as the second verse. Anyone got access to the original 1769 manuscript?

The theme of the song is not that exciting in terms of folksong. One can understand it being sung by RN officers aboard along with Dibdin songs, but it tells of no Naval engagement, is a bit jingoistic, but generally just describes a pretty uneventful passage.

The actual text is quite stable apart from the obvious mondegreens.

There is an important difference in the 1769 version. It lacks the second stanza and expands the last stanza into 2 stanzas. One could easily imagine that being the case with the original and because this is so repetitive it was shunted into one stanza by later singers/printers. I'll post this version shortly.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 09:07 AM

Adieu to you, you ladies of Lisbon
Adieu to you, you ladies of Spain
For we've received orders to sail to old England
We hope on a short time to be with you again.

Chorus:
We'll rant and we'll roar, boys, like brave English heroes
We'll rant and we'll roar upon the salt seas
Until we strike soundings in the channel of Old England
From Nohant to Scully is thirty-five leagues.

The first land we made it was called the deadman
The ramhead of Plymouth doth start London white
Sailed east beachy ship past folly and Underneys
Until we roused the Forlan light.

The signal being made our grand fleet to anchor
All in the down that night for to sleep
It was stand by your stoppers let go your shank painters
Haul up your clew garnets stick out your fore sheets.

Let every man loft of his full bumper
Let every man taste of his full bowl
It will furnish the blood it will drive away all sorrow
So here is a health to all seamen so bold.

It will drive away all of your sorrows
it will drive away all melancholy
So here's a good health to all brave hearted and bold
Here's a health to each jovial and true hearted soul.

Sloop Nellie, 1769, Captain Peter Pease, on passage from Dartmouth to London.

Another interesting point is that he uses correct terminology for the ship's furniture, but gets just about all of the geographical names wrong, which is what you might expect from a sailor not familiar with the geography.

In answer to a query in Mariner's Mirror November 1919 there ensued a series of replies going up to October 2021 which at one point provoked a short study of comparing different versions. An interesting response came in February 1920 from one L. G. C. Laughton, whose father, Sir John Laughton, told him 'that it was written and sung in the Grand Fleet under Russell when it first wintered on the coast of Spain (at Cadiz) in 1694/5. from internal evidence it seems fairly certain that it must have belonged to that war, when you had the use of Spanish ports, and when the Grand Fleet had not been split up, as happened soon afterwards, by the need of sending fleets and squadrons all over the world. And the song being so old, it is quite certain that 'spankers' ought never to be introduced into the last verse but one to rhyme with 'anchors' for the spanker was not introduced till the very end of the 18th century.'

This would fit in nicely with the garbled 1769 version, the song being about 70 years old then.

There are some responses on the history of the tune which I will collate later, with some suggestion of an Irish influence.

NB: st1 'on', and chorus 'Nohant' and 'Scully' are quite likely misinterpretations of the ms.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 23 - 10:21 AM

Well we know it was popular amongst officers in the RN, but I'm not so sure how popular it was amongst merchant seamen. 'Good song'. Well, it has a great tune, and it has been adapted to other circumstances. I'll know more when I've looked at all of the sources.

The tune has similarities with the old 'Derry Down' (King John and the Abbot of Canterbury) probably of the same vintage. This tune is arguably the most used tune ever in the western world, but you hardly ever hear it nowadays. Fashions come and go I suppose.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:30 AM

Thanks, Gibb
The first line of that last verse is definitely in our song. Being such a popular song in the RN and probably a century old by then, it was probably revised several times, that is if the writer wasn't using his own creative abilities there. However, the first verse is almost verbatim the regular versions.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 02:52 PM

Thanks, Jon
Just about everything we've written here was in Stuart Frank's book 'Jolly Sailors Bold'. Never Mind. I've got all of the versions together now. A hypothetical ur version shouldn't be too difficult as versions are mostly very stable.

The minor tune. Anyone else noted similarities with the tune for Corpus Christi Carol (Bells of Paradise) and the early tune for Hunting the Wren (Milder to Malder)?

The 'I've been a seacook' line is in the whaleman's rewrite.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 23 - 02:44 PM

I love the modal tune but I have sung it to both.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 05:22 AM

Sorry if you already have this one...

“The Man-of-War’s Man.” [chapter] Blackwood’s Edinburgh Magazine 11.60 (Jan. 1822).


Song verses smatter the narrative. On page 20, there is

//
Farewell, and adieu to your grand Spanish ladies,
Farewell and adieu to you ladies of Spain,
For we've received orders to sail for Old England,
But we hope in short time for to see you again.
//

After a few other fragments, there's this, which may belong to the same song

//
Then we'll drink and be jolly, and drown melancholy,
Our spirits to cherish, our hopes, and our lives,
And we'll pay all our debts with a flying foretop-sail,
And so bid adieu to our sweethearts and wives.
//


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Subject: RE: Origins: Spanish Ladies
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Feb 24 - 04:38 PM

As a point of interest only, Herman Melville's poem "Tom Deadlight" (1888) is founded on this song.


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