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Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties

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Lighter 09 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM
Marc Bernier 10 Oct 04 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Lighter at work 10 Oct 04 - 11:58 AM
Lady Hillary 10 Oct 04 - 02:03 PM
Lighter 10 Oct 04 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Dockside Doxy 10 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM
GUEST,Barrie Roberts 11 Oct 04 - 05:01 PM
maldenny 11 Oct 04 - 06:08 PM
pavane 12 Oct 04 - 02:17 AM
BanjoRay 12 Oct 04 - 03:35 AM
maldenny 12 Oct 04 - 07:49 AM
Charley Noble 12 Oct 04 - 09:26 AM
Lighter 12 Oct 04 - 11:19 AM
Compton 13 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM
Susanne (skw) 13 Oct 04 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Guest 14 Oct 04 - 09:16 AM
Roger the Skiffler 14 Oct 04 - 09:42 AM
Susanne (skw) 16 Oct 04 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,Mal 16 Oct 04 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,Jan @ Chantey Cabin 17 Oct 04 - 11:11 AM
Susanne (skw) 17 Oct 04 - 01:59 PM
Noreen 17 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM

I posted this suggestion to another thread the other day, but now I think it should be separate.

As most Mudcat shanty singers know, Stan Hugill wrote in "Shanties from teh Seven Seas" that many of lyrics had to be "camouflaged" (Stan's word for "bowdlerized") before his publisher would print them, back in 1961. He turned the full texts over to folklorist G.Legman, however, in the expectation that Legman would publish them as part of his projected collection called "The Ballad Unexpurgated."

Legman died before he was able to finish his book.

Now there's a disturbing rumor circulating that Hugill's collection, which is/was one of the most significant folksong collections in English of the 20th century, has now disappeared or, in fact, never existed.

Hugill himself told me in 1988 that the manuscript was real. He'd compiled it at Legman's request so that "if we're all blown up by an atom bomb the songs will survive." Maybe he was too optimistic.

Legman stated in print several times that he'd promised to publish it. He did print two or three of Hugill's roughly thirty texts in the notes to Vance Randolph's bawdy folksong collection, "Blow the Candle Out" and "Roll Me in Your Arms," published by the University of Arkansas Press a dozen years ago.

Maybe John Mehlberg knows something about the manuscript's whereabouts or whether, like a big chunk of the Percy Manuscript, it wound up used for kindling.

Meanwhile - and here's where Mudcat comes in - Stan occasionally performed some of the bawdy shanties at late-night singalongs at Mystic Seaport and elsewhere. Any 'Catters who may have picked up lyrics from him in person can help posterity in a small way by posting what they remember.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 09:03 AM

It was my understanding, that text went to Browen his widow. It was to be published to provide for her after he was gone. It has been her decision not to publish this now legendary collection. Who knows, maybe someday their sons Martin or Phillip will see fit to have it published. Anyhow the camouflage is pretty superficial. for the most part it doesn't take much imagination to figure out what the words were that he started out with. I don't recall Stan singing anything that took me by suprise very often. If your interested in bawdy chanties, there was a recording that came out at the festival in mystic last summer by a singer named Salty Dick. Some of the stuff on that recording I'd heard Stan sing. I'm sure someone here can find a copy for you. But as long as Browen is alive that book won't be published.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: GUEST,Lighter at work
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:58 AM

Thank you, Marc Bernier. The camouflage seems superficial primarily when the originals have actually appeared, but no real scholar is going to bet on guessed-at reconstructions. Also, sometimes entire stanzas have been dropped rather than simply rewritten.

The lyrics to the CD you refer to are on the Web. Few look to be from Stan's singing. IMHO the album reflects a decidedly contemporary sensibility.

The decision not to publish is regrettable, though in some ways understandable. The important thing is that the manuscript and the lyrics be preserved for the unique light they shed on sailors' culture in the Age of Sail.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 02:03 PM

EBarnacle here--I had a related discussion with Stan several times at Mystic and other festivals. On occasion, I asked him what his backup plan was, as Legman was being dilatory about publishing. He stated that he wanted him to be 'the man' and that he had no intent of going outside the arrangement he had. He was also very firm about not passing other "pure" chanteys which he had not sent to Legman. He did, however, sing more than a few of them in the late night sessions.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 03:15 PM

Fascinating, EBarnacle! This is something brand-new, lyrics that Stan wouldn't even write down.

Maybe this explains the otherwise unexplained seven-stanza gap in Legman's printing of "The Hog-Eye Man." I'd always assumed that was the result of Legman's own editing, but now....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: GUEST,Dockside Doxy
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 05:45 PM

Have talked to Bronwen re this topic - NO BOOK EVER EXISTED - it was a standard "naughty" comment he used to make!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:01 PM

I don't pretend to know if any book ever really existed, but on the subject of reconstructing bowdlerised songs, I recall standing with Stan Hugill at the back of the Peanuts Club in Birmingham in about 1967 while one of Brum's finest 'shantymen' was busy a-shantying like mad. Stan turned to me and said, 'They always try and guess the dirty bits and they always guess wrong. We were far dirtier than that'.
On the same occasion we got onto the same topic at the place where Stan was staying after the gig. Under much pressure he finally agreed to sing us the unexpurgated 'Bollocky Bill the Sailor'. He started well, but began to falter and finally stopped and said, 'It's no use! I can't do it. You young buggers were brought up to sing filth in front of ladies, but I can't!'


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: maldenny
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 06:08 PM

Talking about Stan Hugill, I've got around a dozen copies of the old Spinners magazine called, appropriately enough, "Spin". Stan Hugil wrote an article each month on sea shanties, and not all of the shanties in Spin made it to his book "Shanties of the Seven Seas". I'm looking at one right now called 'Strike the Bell', a pump shanty. (It might be in under a different name I suppose, it's a long while since I read the book through. A collection of his writings for "Spin" would make an invaluable resource - there's much more description and sketches with each article.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: pavane
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 02:17 AM

I seem to remember Nic Jones singing Strike the Bell. In fact, I have it on tape somewhere from when he came to Pontardawe (c1973). Same tune as Click go the Shears.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: BanjoRay
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 03:35 AM

It is of course in the database: Strike The Bell.
Hi Mal!
Ray


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: maldenny
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 07:49 AM

Hi Ray!

Is there a collection of the 'Spin' articles anywhere other than in Spin?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 09:26 AM

"Strike the Bell" was printed in Stan Hugill's other songbook SONGS OF THE SEA, p. 44. It's possible that more of the songs in this book were excerpted from Spin. This songbook is out of print but usually available on the used books websites at a reasonable cost.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:19 AM

Stan included some information from the earlier articles in his second book and a handful of the later songs, including "Rolling Down to Old Maui," in his third.

At least one song I heard him sing, "The Indian Maid," is not in any of his books, though it does appear on his final CD.

Can the "Spin" articles be reproduced? I've seen two or three and they are quite interesting. An OCR would be better than nothing, but it woulod be a shame to lose Stan's accompanying sketches.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Compton
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 09:00 AM

It is of little importance but there is a small tribute to Stan Hugill in the tourist office in Aberdovey, Wales when I was recently there. Seemingly, Stan spent most of his later years involved with a Nautical School on the Harbour. yes I know it's not got anything to really do with the thread.. But I bet there are many in that town that remember him


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 05:27 PM

I second Lighter's suggestion (copyright permitting). Wouldn't there be room for the articles somewhere on the Mudcat?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:16 AM

I suppose some of the Spinners might have complete sets of 'Spin', so all the articles should be available. They'd make a great website, but who holds the copyright now? How long does it last? Wouldn't like to do anyone out of their just deserts!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:42 AM

Contact Hugh Jones Ex-Spinner shanty singer here:HERE
RtS


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:07 PM

Guest, they'll still hold the copyright if they were the publishers, but as there's no prospect of making money from these old pieces they might agree to have them put on the Mudcat if people were found to do the actual work. (I'd offer to proofread, which will certainly be necessary wíth scanned material.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: GUEST,Mal
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:44 PM

They'd make quite a nice book if they were scanned and edited to fit onto complete pages. There must be quite a few of them - I don't know how long 'Spin' was published or how many articles there are in total.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: GUEST,Jan @ Chantey Cabin
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:11 AM

Good News - Bad News

All these articles have been compiled and are ready to go to the publishers - we are currently awaiting permission from Tony Davis (who holds the copyright) for permission.

And the most economical price quote from the local printing companies.

If you have some interest in Stan's work go to stanhugill.com for some news only released about an hour ago! regarding the 100th anniversary of his birth.

Jan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:59 PM

Jan, that's certainly good news, even though you don't seem to be holding your breath as to "the most economical price quote from the local printing companies". I trust you'll keep us up to date!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Stan Hugill's Unpublished Shanties
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 07:20 PM

Re. Jan's breaking news, see thread:
STAN HUGILL'S 100th BIRTHDAY BASH


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