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Stan Hugill - the real words?

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stormalong 31 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM
Fred McCormick 31 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM
Bill D 31 Aug 06 - 03:29 PM
Old Grizzly 31 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM
Charley Noble 31 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Michael in Swansea 31 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM
Richard Bridge 31 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Lighter 31 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM
Sandra in Sydney 31 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM
kendall 31 Aug 06 - 07:14 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Aug 06 - 08:05 PM
Bob Bolton 31 Aug 06 - 08:46 PM
Charley Noble 31 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Rev 31 Aug 06 - 10:30 PM
Naemanson 31 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM
stormalong 01 Sep 06 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Barrie Roberts 01 Sep 06 - 10:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Sep 06 - 11:26 AM
Greg B 01 Sep 06 - 12:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Sep 06 - 01:09 PM
Greg B 01 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Rev 01 Sep 06 - 02:28 PM
Lighter 01 Sep 06 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Rev 01 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM
Charley Noble 01 Sep 06 - 03:24 PM
Lighter 01 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM
Lighter 01 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM
Barry Finn 01 Sep 06 - 08:30 PM
Barry Finn 01 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM
Naemanson 01 Sep 06 - 09:12 PM
curmudgeon 02 Sep 06 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Rev 02 Sep 06 - 02:52 PM
Lady Hillary 02 Sep 06 - 04:35 PM
Barry Finn 03 Sep 06 - 12:25 AM
GUEST 03 Sep 06 - 02:48 AM
Charley Noble 03 Sep 06 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Brecklander 03 Sep 06 - 11:43 AM
Charley Noble 03 Sep 06 - 12:05 PM
JWB 03 Sep 06 - 11:44 PM
Naemanson 04 Sep 06 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Mr Red on a new computer - XP sucks! 04 Sep 06 - 07:41 AM
Charley Noble 04 Sep 06 - 10:16 AM
Lighter 04 Sep 06 - 10:22 AM
JWB 04 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 05 Sep 06 - 12:10 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Sep 06 - 12:16 AM
Greg B 05 Sep 06 - 01:38 PM
Lighter 05 Sep 06 - 02:02 PM
Greg B 05 Sep 06 - 05:50 PM
JWB 06 Sep 06 - 11:12 PM
Greg B 07 Sep 06 - 03:53 PM
Charley Noble 07 Sep 06 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Robin in Sydney 07 Sep 06 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Rowan 08 Sep 06 - 03:09 AM
Charley Noble 08 Sep 06 - 10:32 PM
Lighter 09 Sep 06 - 01:12 PM
Greg B 10 Sep 06 - 12:18 AM
GUEST,B 25 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Lighter 25 Jul 12 - 12:59 PM
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Subject: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: stormalong
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

Stan Hugill's 'Shanties from the Seven Seas' (first published 1961) must be the most authoritative source generally available on its subject, but anyone reading this today must be frustrated by the wholesale bowdlerisation to which he admitted. Did he leave any sources in the public domain with the real words?

Richard


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM

Dunno, but I do know that he sent a whole load of 'real words' to the American folklorist, Gershon Legman. So perhaps Legman would be a good place to start.

Hugill did a booking at the Trawler on Liverpool Dock Rd. one night back in the 1960s. Whether he'd had a few or not, I don't know, but he came out with some of the 'real words'. The air in there was purple for weeks afterwards


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:29 PM

There were a couple threads on this earlier....there are a couple of late night recordings of 'some' songs done at Mystic, but they are the property OF Mystic, and there are no known plans to make them public. I know someone who has a copy, as he was doing the recording, and he says I can come listen, but that HE will not make copies.

G. Legman would be, indeed, the most likely source for words, if he has them, but he died in 1999.....I have no idea who controls his archives.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 03:58 PM

Many moons ago I spoke to Stan (and ended up sliding down the bar with him) and in the course of the conversation he said he had comprehensive written records of all the 'untouched' versions which he might release 'when the time was right'

I should love to see these, if only to see just how many of my guesses were right :o)

I suspect there would be few venues where they could be sung in these
'enlightened' politically correct times.

Dave


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM

Richard-

Some day Stan's original versions will see the light again, I'm sure. I'm sure it's something that will be discussed at the 100th birthday commemoration that's being held in Liverpool this November.

Try the contact at Stan's website.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:28 PM

Try to get a copy of "What Shall We Do With A Drunken Sailor" which is unexpurdgated. You may not like what you read, but the words are there. Chanty Cabin had a few copies a while back, don't know if they've any left.
Just realised I'm back as a guest.
Mike


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 05:39 PM

I have just realised as a result of the above that I was suspicious of the formalistic incrementalisation of "Drunken Sailor" which made it sound like a VIctorian music-hall song rather than a true forebitter (it is not in shanty format).

Way to go, Mudcat!


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 06:52 PM

As the "Unpublished Shanties" thread reveals, the official word on the subject is that the manuscript in question does not exist. One hopes otherwise.

The "Drunken Sailor" book has some attractive 19th century illustrations and some informative notes, but none of the texts are Hugill's. All the versions appear to be "post-revival.".


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM

One of my friends has re-constituted some of his songs cos Stan Hugill normally used words that rhymed with the offensive word & as someone said, the air was blue!

I'll send this thread to him

sandra


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:14 PM

He asked me for my collection of sea songs, but he died before I got around to it. I've always regretted that. Something about striking while the iron is hot.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:05 PM

It's not as simple as "real words or bowlderised words" - as Stan used to say, chanty men would vary the words according to the occasion, and if a song was being sung when there were passengers present or maybe on the dockside the words would be modified to fit.

Chanty-singing sailors were as liable to exercise what they saw as good manners as anybody, when it seemed fitting. Old-fashioned manners and old-fashioned songs have a lot in common.

This kind of thing isn't really the same as genteel collectors rewriting the songs and coming up with versions that noone had ever sung. In this case, all the words are "real words", and would have been sung, even the one's that don't turn the air blue.

Drunken Sailor - "it is not in shanty format". There are lots of formats for working shanties, and I'd say the Drunken Sailor is in typical form for a capstan shanty, say for raising the anchor.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 08:46 PM

G'day McGrath,

"... Drunken Sailor is in typical form for a capstan shanty, say for raising the anchor ..."

Interesting point ... the "Hooray, up she rises!" chorus would be appropriate!

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

McGrath-

I would certainly agree with you that shantymen made choices about what they'd sing. However, what is missing from the record are frequently the more bawdy verses and it would be nice (?) to recover as many of those as we could. Then one would also be put in the position of deciding, given the audience, what verses one wanted to sing.

Singing in the rigging,
There's nothing else to do...

vs.

Friggin' in the riggin',
There's fuckle else to do...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 10:30 PM

A couple of years ago Jerry Bryant put out a CD under the pseudonym "Richard Docker Ph.D." called "Salty Dick's Unexpurgated Sailor Songs." It's a hilariously raunchy collection of traditional chanteys and sailor songs, as well as a few of his own very witty originals. He claims that he got several "uncensored versions of well known chanteys" from Stan himself, probably during a drunken evening or two at Mystic.

As for Stan's lost manuscript of uncensored sea songs, I don't know. I do believe, however, that the Randall Mills Archive of Northwest Folklore, at the University of Oregon, has a collection of unexpurgated chanteys originally intended for Joanna Colcord's book "Roll and Go." She had sent them to Robert W. Gordon for his editorial advice, and he told her that the songs in question should be edited for publication (this was back in the 20s). When Gordon died his papers went to U of O, and amongst them were the unedited chanteys from Colcord. I was a folklore grad student there about ten years ago, and remember looking at the small collection of raunchy songs, but I don't think I made copies of any of them. I think they're still there if anyone wants to make a trip to Eugene.

Rev


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Naemanson
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM

My theory is that these were working men. There were no ladies. Therefore they did not need to be gentile in their speach or verses. So, just stick in any words not accepted in polite society and you will be fine.

Jerry Bryant has released an album of unexpurgated sea songs. It is well done but the language is nothing you won't hear elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: stormalong
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:07 AM

I just think that Hugill's sources are very important historically and that it would be a tragedy for social history, if not for folk singing, if the original realities or possibilities were lost altogether. I don't necessarily want to sing them, but I'm curious to know and I don't want my knowledge to be filtered by essentially pre-60s notions of propriety.

As regards normal folk club renditions I think we could now push the boundaries *a little further* than what was thought acceptable in 1960. For example, I sing a version of the Liverpool Judies which Hugill admits to editing.

My version is basically the one given in Hugill, except that I sing the Mudcat version (http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3653) of verse 6 which mentions the "pox" and may be closer to the original (or not). I appreciate this might shock some people but I'm prepared to risk it.

Hugill's verse 7, however, is perhaps closer to the original than the Mudcat one, and might only require replacement of the word "throat" by something more appropriate. However, I think that might be going too far for the average folk club...

Stormalong


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:07 AM

One night in the Peanuts Club in Birmingham, about 30 years ago, I stood with Stan Hugill, listening to a number of floor-singers airing their interpretations of classic seasongs, each of them attempting to replace the bowdlerised words and phrases.

'They never get it right', Stan said. 'We were much more filthy-minded than they imagine'.

The topic rose again after the club closed at John Swift's home where Stan was staying. Eventually we prevailed on him to sing us an example. He launched into 'Bollocky Bill the Sailor' but rapidly faded into silence, saying, 'It's no good. I wasn't brought up to sing filth in front of ladies, like you young buggers!'

He certainly did send a number of uncut versions to Gershon Legman. Didn't Legman publish them in something called 'The New Kryptadia'?


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 11:26 AM

Drunken Sailor was a runaway or stamp and go shanty. No soloist. All hands would sing as they ran away with the braces.

I also once asked Stan Hugill about the original versions because he would often make a point of telling an audience that the words had been softened. He just said that he might get around to it. he did not seem to think that it mattered much.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Greg B
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:30 PM

Stamp and go on braces? Really? You've seen that done?

There is in fact a solo part to Drunken Sailor and it is the
first line of each verse, which the shanteyman gives to the
crew and they then give back to him twice earlie in the
morning. That's the magic. As shanteyman you now have three
quarters of a verse to think up the next one. It doesn't
even have to rhyme as there is only one line which rhymes
with itself. Which is why it's so easy to be topical. I
believe the very weekend of the Exxon Valdez about 100
of us were simultaneously coining the line 'Put him in
charge of an Exxon tanker' which we all believe to be
very clever on hour parts to this day.

About every year rumors of the 'secret Hugill collection'
swirl round and are again put to rest.

I have no doubt that there are personal documents in the
posession of Bron and Phillip and Martin which will some
day come to light in a time and manner of their own choosing.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 01:09 PM

Hugill gives drunken Sailor as stamp and go, runaway or walkaway shanty.
He says that in big ships with small crews it was mainly used at braces when going about.
In his 1926 book John Sampson writes that it "...was usually sung by all hands as they ran away with the braces when swinging the yards round in tacking ship."
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Greg B
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 01:56 PM

I hadn't recalled that. I'm used to the stamp-and-go format
on halyards where you have a superabundance of crew.

Perhaps he's referring to taking the slack out of the braces
while coming around in stays, as opposed to doing any final
trimming?


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 02:28 PM

Remember that Hugill was sailing on the really big square riggers, not the little buggers like the vessels at Mystic. We used a walkaway (aka stamp and go) at the braces when I was sailing on the Norwegian ship Sorlandet, not a huge ship, but much bigger than any of the ships that sail in the U.S. (with the exception of the Eagle and the Star of India). Walkaways at the braces were not just for "taking slack out." When you're tacking or wearing a big square rigger (over 200 feet) you really need to haul those braces cheerily. Swinging those yards around from one tack to another requires a lot of line, so the braces are really long. The coordination required for tacking or wearing a ship that size requires a lot of coordination and speed, and the stamp and go technique is really efficient for that sort of operation. Of course, on Sorlandet the chanteying during maneuvers was kept at a minimum, because the crew of greenhands needed to be able to hear the mates instructions. But we did use chanteys at the capstan, the halyards, and bunting chanteys aloft.
Rev


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 02:36 PM

Rev, what chanteys did you use ? And what words ?


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 02:59 PM

My time on Sorlandet was almost twenty years ago now so I have to say I don't remember exactly what words I used. I was working at Mystic Seaport at the time so I probably used the standard Hugill versions of songs that were sung by the Seaport's MOD squad at that time.
With a crew of mostly Norwegians, and me singing in English, I found that the most effective chanteys were the most well-known ones. For example I couldn't get many people to sing along on "Paddy Lay Back," or "Old Moke Picking on a Banjo" at the capstan, but everyone knew "Drunken Sailor." On the halyards I think I used "Whiskey Johnny," "Hanging Johnny," and "Blow the Man Down" (most popular), and probably some others. Aloft I used "Paddy Doyle's Boots" and "Boney," for bunting. I also sang some forebitters, accompanying myself on a guitar that belonged to a German fellow named Andreas, during dogwatch. The most popular being my covers of Beatles songs and "Good Lovin'" which got everyone dancing during our May Day celebration.

To connect with the original thread, I did not use any "dirty" lyrics aboard Sorlandet, but the young Norwegians taught me some filthy Norwegian words that I later inserted into a whaleboat demonstration back at the Seaport, but that's another story altogether.

BTW, re. the use of stamp and go at the braces, my old copy of Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas (1979 edition), has an illustration of that operation on page 136, to accompany Drunken Sailor.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 03:24 PM

This is an example of an unexpurgated verse from Stan Hugill's manuscript as conveyed to Vance Randolph:

From ROLL ME IN YOUR ARMS, collected by Vance Randolph and edited by G. Legman, p. 331.

HAUL AWAY JOE

When I was a little lad
And so my mother told me,
A-way! Haul a-way! We'll haul away – Joe!
That if I didn't fuck the girls
My balls would get all moldy,
A-way! Haul a-way!
Haul away on the pecker of the Bold Blackamoor!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:29 PM

Actually Charley, that's not from Stan but from a mysterious "R.K." of Mena, Arkansas.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM

Rev, so Stan wasn't "the last of the shantymen" after all. Cool!


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:30 PM

No Charley, George Herbert of West Geelong, outlived Stan by a few years but not many. He too was a singer, musician (concertina, alto uke & harmonica) & shanteyman.

Funny, lately I've been thinking more about the vulgarity of the old sailors. "They never get it right', Stan said. 'We were much more filthy-minded than they imagine."

"The topic rose again after the club closed at John Swift's home where Stan was staying. Eventually we prevailed on him to sing us an example. He launched into 'Bollocky Bill the Sailor' but rapidly faded into silence, saying, 'It's no good. I wasn't brought up to sing filth in front of ladies, like you young buggers!"


The statements above back up what I'm begining to think which is that these sailors weren't near as vulgar as they thought they were. I do believe they were very aware of their surroundings & were quite restricted to there victorian senseabilities as to where they would sing them. On my tapes of & from George Herbert & with my personal experiences with him, he thought he to was crass. Knowing him I never found him to be either crass or vulgar though I'm sure had he had been 60 or 70 yrs younger, out 5000 mile from port & 6 months away from seeing land he'd probably would've been a bit more than I'd ever seen or heard him. I was at a party with him down in the hold of the brig Carthiginian (Lahina, Maui 1979) he started to sing a song but the chorus he just left off as "you can go aft & tell Van Hope (an actuall skipper at the party from Port Townsend, Wa) the skipper he can tra la la la la la la". There were females at the party so he wouldn't sing those lines. Later he sent me a tape of the same song & again the line of the chorus went "You can go aft & tell the skipper he can shove this ta la la la la" (it should've gone "this ship right up his ass". Later in the tape he states that this song should never be sung in mixed company. He sang the lines "she was round in the counter & bluff in the bow" & he then stops to chuckle like a little kid that's just said something that shouldn't been said,,,, & then tells me (still on tape) "that means a big bum & big boobs" & chuckles again. He sang another song, before preceding he's says that it's a filthy song & then says "well I a crass man, so" & the song was no more crass than one would hear today, well maybe a little but not at all what I expected. Later at the same prty he waited untill the room was clear of women before he told this story, which he thought vulgar. He said he was on his way home to England & he han't been there for many years. While there he said he was going to visit the grave of the 1st mate that had kicked him in the head when he (George) was a cabinboy. First thing he was gonna do was pour a full bottle of rum all over the mate's grave (here I'm waiting to hear about some unheard of sailors's rites of passing).....after he drank the contents. I can see his side about not wanting to maybe embrass himself at his age in front of some women or maybe his wife. Of course his wife took no offence at any of the langauge from the rest of the crowd, neither did any of the women present & I think some of the women were over doing it a bit with the racy language to make him feel comfortable so's he'd be able to speak more freely in front of them. So my feeling lately was that the "vulgar" & "racy" shanties that we're looking for weren't as common as we'd like to believe. I don't say that they weren't sung, I'm just starting to believe that they weren't as common as we think that they were. And they porbably wouldn't find them near as much fun to sing as we would, had we had any more of them. Still I'd like to hear them being sung.

Barry

   



Barry


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM

By the way I'd have to go along with Reval & Keith's take with the roll & go (stampeed shanty). Wearing a square rigger, once the wind catches the sail & helps in turning the yard the crew has it's hands full to keep up with hauling in the braces. Imagine sailing a gaff rigged sloop downwind, & your ready to tack but you're not gonna come about, you're just gonna put the wind & sail to the oppsite side & jibe, almost similar though you can't point near as close to the wind but still pretty quick & needs a fast crew & a fast song espically if you're gonna do it all on a roll (using a wave). "Haul boys when she takes the roll"

Barry


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 09:12 PM

I believe Barry has it right. People had a different attitude back in the old days. And the old shanty singers were raised in those days. I remember my grandfathers both telling stories that they broke off when a woman came into the room. Later those stories were not so bad as they seemed to think they were.

Still, they were largely young men, in a macho environment, competing with each other in the work and in the stories they would tell. Language, I've found, is usually pretty coarse in that kind of environment when it isn't tempered by the presence of women.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 01:40 PM

I think that Barry has quite correctly assessed the true essence of "bawdy" shanties. It is far too easy to forget that attitudes about language have evolved tremendously since the end of the 19th century. What collectors referred to as "rude," "coarse," or "unprintable filth," were often words and phrases that are now common parlance. The use of words such as "whore" or "pox" were unthinkable in those olden days. In fact, IMHO, the vast majority of "dirty songs" in current circulation are no earlier than c.1920, D'Urfey and Burns excepted.

Sailors, and other working people in past eras were very class conscious, and would not dream of uttering a rude word in earshot of their "betters' or of any lady. And while the crews on ships were all male, the presence of passengers, captains' wives and daughters, or even prudish captains, would require the clearly audible shanties to be free of foul language. There was also a lot less "noise pollution" and the singing of men hauling up and anchor or setting sail prior to leaving port could be heard throughout the town.

And as to the "Drunken Sailor," Terry says, "Although mostly used for windlass or capstan, Sir Walter Runciman tells me that he frequently sang it for 'hand-over-hand' hauling."

Just my thoughts -- Tom


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 02:52 PM

I agree that there have been changes in how "dirty" themes and language have been treated in popular and folk song, but I would hesitate to think of it as an "evolution." It seems to me to be more of a cyclical thing. Certainly there was a a great amount of sexual repression during the Victorian era, but if you look at broadside ballads from the 17th and early 18th centuries, there was some stuff that would make a gangsta rapper blush. For instance I came across a fairly graphic broadside in the Pepys collection that was about a fifteen year old girls' desperate want of a dildo (with a "nonsense" refrain of "dildo-dildo-dildo dil"). Sexual topics are always at the forefront of human consciousness, and society during various eras deals with those topics in varying ways. Right now, in the U.S. it could be argued that we are in a new period of repression, but it won't last.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 02 Sep 06 - 04:35 PM

Barry, are you sure that he wasn't planning to pour the rum on the mate's grave after it had done its share of good to his system? EBarnacle here.

By the Bye, how's the album going? Eric

When I spoke to Stan at Mystic about the uncensored chanteys, he told me that he had sent 25 to Legman to see what he would do with them. He also indicated that he was getting tired of waiting. Unfortunately, he died the following year.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 12:25 AM

Hi Lady Hillary & Eric

Hope you're both keeping well.

He was gonna drink the bottle dry before he pissed it all over his mate's grave,,, & with great pleasure I would imagine. He hated the bastard for what he did to him, even after all those years.

I just got back from doing the last bit of touching up on the CD about an hour ago. I may have the master next week then it's off to be copied & packaged when I can cought up the money.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 02:48 AM

I am no Chanty officionado, in fact, not really sholarly in folk music (as I have had it pointed out several times), I just sing. What I do know about is hard physical graft and the people that do it, cursing, swearing is normal everyday language. It is amazing how a difficult, heavy load can be shifted with a few well directed F**ks. We are, of course, losing this with all the health and safety legislation and mechanical handling aids it is rapidly dissapearing from peoples imagination. So, does it surprise me that bawdy words were sung aboard ships, not at all. As to the sanitised words, I never heard my Father swear until I was twenty and happened to be working on the same building site where he started every sentance with F**king! Even working the pig farm, I then realised that his phrase "Cacking Rats" was to save my 18 year old ears from his far worse repetoire. I think we should ask Charley to re-assemble the songs and restore them to their former glory (I think he is well fitted for the task) put them in the public domain, with an adult content warning, and let the singers decide if they will offend or not. If it isn't done then why collect any original text of anything, why save anything, it is censorship, aren't we all supposed to be grown ups?
Peter


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 10:03 AM

Hey, did I miss the part in this thread where I volunteered to assemble and publish the unexpurgated sea shanties of the world? It would be a glorious job, granted, but well beyond my current inventory of such songs, or my imagination!

Now Jerry Bryant has already made a fresh start on this, as principal party responsible for the recording of UNCENSORED SAILOR SONGS.

And Captain Kendall Morse always threatens to "let loose" with one or two. Maybe we should encourage him to release them all!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Brecklander
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 11:43 AM

Charlie, I really like the sound of FUCKLE however, I think its fuck-all.Fairwinds.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 12:05 PM

Brecklander-

Agreed. It's "fuck-all" for sure. It's taken me years to realize it, though, thanks to the oral tradition.

I still remember how amused we were when we tried to sing the "clean version" while tied up at a yacht basin in Annapolis, waiting for one of our shipmates to make a mistake.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: JWB
Date: 03 Sep 06 - 11:44 PM

I don't know if the probity of chanteymen had decreased by Stan Hugill's time, but the versions of a few chanteys he sang at the infamous Mystic workshop were single entendre for sure. I was on the stage with him, with a tape recorder running, and I got every word.

Here's his unbowdlerized version of A-roving:

In Amsterdam there lived a maid.
        Mark well what I do say!
In Amsterdam there lived a maid,
And she was mistress of the whoring trade.
        I'll go no more a-roving with you, fair maid.

        CHORUS
        A-roving, a-roving, since roving's been my rue-eye-in.
        I'll go no more a-roving with you, fair maid.

I took this fair maid to the park.
        Mark…
I took…
And we sat down where it was dark.
        I'll go no more…

I put my hand upon her knee,
        Mark…
I put…
She said, "Young man, you're very free."

CHORUS

I put my hand upon her thigh…
She said, "Young man, you're getting nigh."

I put my hand yet higher still…
She said, "Young man, that's quite a thrill."

CHORUS

I put my hand upon her breast…
And the wind from her ass blew sou'sou'west.

The flesh of her breast was as white as milk…
And the hair of her cunt was as soft as silk.

CHORUS        

The cheeks of her ass were tight as a drum…
And the lips of her cunt were red as a plum.

Her belly it was soft and wide…
And it gave me such a lovely ride.

CHORUS

I fucked her once, I fucked her twice…
She said, "Young man, you're very nice."

I took my leave, I said goodbye…
She said, "Young man, you're very sly."

CHORUS        

I said, "What now, my pretty maid?"….
She said, "You're nice, but I'll be paid."

I said, "But you enjoyed it too."…
She said, "That's right, as much as you."

She said, "Young man, you're very brash….
I like it more when I get cash."

CHORUS

Everything I heard from him that afternoon ended up on Salty Dick's CD.

Now, for real filth, I refer you to Tom Lewis, who at the same workshop spewed forth the most amazing lyrics to several songs (which also are on Salty Dick). But then, he represents late 20th century norms of dirty songs.

These aren't songs that necessarily should be performed. Rather, they deserve to be studied for the glimpse they give into the world of the square rig sailorman.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Naemanson
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 06:38 AM

Charley, I think you'll wait a long time for Kendall to "let loose". Remember the party in your barn last year? We had to really work to get him to sing one in the presence of all those women and when he got half way through it he clammed up. He just couldn't do it. He too was raised in a different environment. You'll have to promise him that there would be no women present and that no woman would ever hear the tape. It's not his fault. It's just the way he was raised.

I am a younger than he is but I was raised in Maine too, more or less. I also have trouble singing dirty songs in front of women. But I at least can get over my uneasiness... somewhat.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Mr Red on a new computer - XP sucks!
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 07:41 AM

There was a late session when they got him drunk - I expect he was really asking for "payment" and he waited till all the ladies had retired - though Maggie Starkie (or Dragon FC New Inn Shortwood Bristol Every Fri) insists she was present even if behind the men (she is quite short). I suspect there were several of these kind of sessions. He sang some tretty honest versions apparently. Mike would probably have versions if you asked, he is a shanty singer after all. Mike notes every singer/song at the club.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 10:16 AM

Jerry-

Thanks for posting, and clearing the air, so to speak.

Brett-

You're probably right about Capt. Morse, although maybe he'll really let loose this year if encouraged (provoked?). However, I suspect that some of the bawdiest songs that I've never heard are songs sung by women to women. There are exceptions, though. I certainly learned some of my favorites from my mother!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 10:22 AM

It surprises me that some (though not all) of the final verses given above to "A-Roving" appeared around 1970 in Harold Hart's "Complete Immortalia," a collection notorious for "modernized" texts. The coy post-facto banter with the "maid" appears in no other version.

Did Hart ever meet Stan ? Did Stan ever read Hart's book ? Was Stan continually adding to and "improving" his shanties into the 1980s ?
I don't get it.

BTW, if you turn the volume all the way up on John Huston's "Moby Dick" 1956), you can hear A. L. Lloyd singing, to the "A-Roving" tune,

   I kissed her once, I kissed her twice,
   And [?found that she was cold as ice].

I can't quite make out the second line. It seems to be the sole other appearance of the pattern "I Xed her once, I Xed her twice" in this song. Again, who got what from whom and when is an interesting question.

The Intro to "Shanties from the Seven Seas" tells us that over the years Stan had committed his songs not to paper but to memory. Only Stan's manuscript would show the form the shanties had for him fifty years ago. (The bawdy ones may have been the hardest to forget and therefore the closest to the way he'd heard them.)


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: JWB
Date: 04 Sep 06 - 10:35 PM

Lighter,

For the sake of scholarship I will confess that Salty Dick added the final few verses (after the "once and twice" verse)to round out the story; Stan's version ended with the act of coitus itself. I've no memory of where I picked up the "coy post-facto banter" verses, but I'm certain I've never seen Harold Hart's collection. P'raps they came from Mr. Brand...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:10 AM

I remember teaching a young Deck Cadet how to splice wire once. The lad was mild mannered and something of a religious type, so he rarely swore. After chiding me for my bad Marlin Spike language he proceeded to try and follow my work. I explained to him that unless he learned to swear he would never be successful at splicing wire. After a few tries with the marlin spike he was unable to get it started in between the strands, and the sweat was pouring off him. Finally with a good shove and a few hearty "Get in there you bastard" he was able to complete the job....;-)


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 12:16 AM

This may have been noted before in a thread on the marine books issued by Chasse-Marée, but it is worth recommending again. Stan Hugill sang three chanteys of the group included in the disc with the book, "Chants de Marins," Chasse-marée, by Michel Colleu and Nathalie Couilloud.
The 25 chanteys are a selection from the 18 cds put out by Chasse-Marée.
The selections by Hugill are "The Black Ball Line," "John Kanaka" and the old French chantey "Jean-François de Nantes."


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Greg B
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 01:38 PM

Hey Gerry...remember the nuns at "the infamous Mystic workshop?"

How they sat there through the introduction, the disclaimer,
the warning and then as the filth began to spew forth stood
up as one and got them, presumably, to the nunnery.

For a moment we thought it was going to be, in the immortal words
of Fr. Jack Hackett "Nuns! Nuns! Reverse! Reverse!"


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 02:02 PM

Jerry, thanks for that reply. Bishop Percy's unacknowledged changes to old ballads kept scholars scratching their heads for decades till Child set the record straight.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Greg B
Date: 05 Sep 06 - 05:50 PM

Sorry for the wrong initial letter Jerry...I get our initials
mixt up.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: JWB
Date: 06 Sep 06 - 11:12 PM

You know,Greg, if Fr. Hackett was the priest in "The Priest and the Nuns" he would have rang the engine room telegraph for Full Speed Ahead.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Greg B
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 03:53 PM

Ah but Fr. Jack Hackett was in fact the degenerate old coot
in 'Fr. Ted' who was, it seems, deathly afraid of nuns.

He is immortalized here:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Library/1854/jack.html


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 09:56 PM

"Nun so sick as I!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Robin in Sydney
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:51 PM

I'm the "friend" Sandra in Sydney referred to. I began singing sea songs in Australia in the sixties, and was told then that Stan had sent unexpurgated versions of his songs to Legman. He did, Legman refers to it in his book on erotic folklore "The Horn Book," (p263) but doesn't say what he intended to do with them. We also were told that when Stan originally bowdlerised his recorded words, he replaced the "dirty " ones with rhymes, so that you could unpick an original version with a bit of thought. As a result, I've been singing (with Fo'c'sle till 1985 and with The Roaring Forties since 1988) a version of "A'rovin" that I recreated. To judge from the version of Stan's that JWB posted, I got it fairly right.

If my memory is correct, Stan also refers to the sailor's habit of singing bawdy versions of shanties when on cargo ships (no passengers to offend,) and says that the notorious "Sally Brown" verses fit to the tune of "Shenandoah." Which they do, so I've sung that as well.

         Oh, Sally Brown, she's willing and able
         Away, you rolling river
         On the for'ard hatch, or the captain's table
         And away, I'm bound to go, cross the wide Missouri


There's a couple of threads underlying all this.

1)Do we want to sing bawdy shanties? Yes, I do, I find the bowdlerised versions artificial and coy. The originals feel more genuine, the bawdiness is almost innocent by modern standards, and some of it is bloody funny. I wish I'd written this, from "The Ebenezer,"

          The Bread was a hard as any brass
          And the beef was salt as Lot's wife's arse.

"Cruising round Yarmouth" admittedly not a shanty, has many genuinely funny ship parts metaphors, particularly the line which appears to be translated from the latin writings of the sexually disturbed St Paul.

2) How good is some of the stuff we rewrite to try and rediscover the originals? See the verse to Shenandoah above. Some of the stuff we rewrite is not as real or as good as we like to think. "Unexpurgated Sailor Songs" is more like a rugger club song book in places. Old singers whether genuine old shantymen, old revivalists like me, or more recent singers, get sets of words from other singers as often as versions from recorded texts. As a result, a fair few of us are singing modern additions like some of the verses of "The Hog's eye man," along with originals. Is this "the folk process?"

I don't think this matters too much, after all, shanties very rarely seem to have fully set words, they varied with every performance. However, in order to prevent the gradual watering down of originals by the repeated variations of later singers, we should refer to the originals occasionally. So, yes, we need them.

There's a Ph. D. project here. Collect what originals we have, and set them out with later versions and rewrites also ackowledged as such. Please, someone? (else)


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 03:09 AM

Aw, go on Robin. You've got plenty of time for a PhD now you've retired. The ethnomusicologists at Armidale might be willing to supervise such a thesis.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 10:32 PM

Robin in Sydney-

Certainly something to mull over while lifting a tall one on Wattle Street.

Well, actually even Wattle Street's been gussied up since old Stan was there in the 1930's.

And, Lord, whatever did they do to the old Piermont Street neighborhood!

I was on the docks the other night an' everything was still,
I dreamed I saw them Piermont girls; they was dressed up fit to kill!
They wore Hally Hanson camisoles and oilskin lingery
Since old Frederick's of Wallamooloo had decked them out that day!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 01:12 PM

Sometimes Stan kept the rhymes and sometimes he didn't. Sometimes the rhyming words were not the bawdy parts. Sometimes he left out "objectionable" stanzas altogether, and sometimes he didn't bother to mention this. It seems likely too that some songs, like "Christopher Columbo," were so intractable that he simply suppressed them.

As for "reconstructing" based solely on what's printed in Stan's books, one person's "obvious" reconstructions are not always so "obvious" to others. My impression is that most of the "real words" are probably cruder and less amusing than folkies would like to think.

The only satisfactory solution, of course, would be the appearance of Stan's manuscript. Sociologists and social anthropologists would rejoice.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: Greg B
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 12:18 AM

>The Bread was a hard as any brass
>And the beef was salt as Lot's wife's arse.

I've heard the latter line done a couple of ways...

'Balaam's ass' which is a bibilical non-sequitor of biblical
proportions.

Far more amusing is the way Celeste Bernardo used to do it
before 11 at SF Chantey sings...

...and the beef was salt as Lot's wife's......donkey

Personally, I find 'cheeky' a lot more amusing than 'bawdy'
90% of the time.


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,B
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:45 PM

Stan's book does have all the shanties in clean versions and I am sure that there are things that were left to the imagination. What is the true meaning of a "Hog's eye". W.B. Whall's collection of shanties has any "questionable" verses left out, leaving many of the working shanties too short to be really singable. His defence of this was that:
"Shanties and work-songs sung at sea are of the vilest filth!"
Instead of Political Correctness, can we have some historical accuracy please?


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Subject: RE: Stan Hugill - the real words?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:59 PM

> leaving many of the working shanties too short to be really singable.

Most of the brevity probably comes from the fact that shanties tended to have only a handful of "standard" verses, to be followed by improvisation and words from other shanties.

As Hugill once said, a sailing ship wasn't "a bloody floating music-hall." It was more like a floating workhouse.


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