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Hugill/Dana's missing shanties

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greg stephens 11 Jul 02 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Brian 11 Jul 02 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 11 Jul 02 - 10:29 AM
MMario 11 Jul 02 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Brian 11 Jul 02 - 10:49 AM
EBarnacle1 11 Jul 02 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 11 Jul 02 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,Brian 11 Jul 02 - 11:12 AM
masato sakurai 11 Jul 02 - 11:23 AM
masato sakurai 11 Jul 02 - 11:54 AM
radriano 11 Jul 02 - 12:04 PM
greg stephens 11 Jul 02 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,Brian 11 Jul 02 - 12:26 PM
MMario 11 Jul 02 - 02:04 PM
EBarnacle1 11 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 11 Jul 02 - 04:46 PM
Charley Noble 11 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM
Chanteyranger 11 Jul 02 - 11:49 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 12 Jul 02 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 12 Jul 02 - 04:09 AM
GUEST,Brian 12 Jul 02 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 12 Jul 02 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Brian 12 Jul 02 - 05:24 AM
Charley Noble 12 Jul 02 - 08:59 AM
GUEST 12 Jul 02 - 09:34 AM
EBarnacle1 12 Jul 02 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,greg stephens 12 Jul 02 - 12:41 PM
pattyClink 12 Jul 02 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,chanteyranger 12 Jul 02 - 03:25 PM
radriano 12 Jul 02 - 05:12 PM
GUEST,chanteyranger 12 Jul 02 - 06:19 PM
Charley Noble 12 Jul 02 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 12 Jul 02 - 08:44 PM
Chanteyranger 13 Jul 02 - 12:54 AM
greg stephens 13 Jul 02 - 06:20 AM
greg stephens 13 Jul 02 - 06:36 AM
masato sakurai 13 Jul 02 - 06:57 AM
masato sakurai 13 Jul 02 - 07:00 AM
masato sakurai 13 Jul 02 - 07:25 AM
greg stephens 13 Jul 02 - 07:43 AM
greg stephens 13 Jul 02 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Melani 13 Jul 02 - 12:58 PM
masato sakurai 13 Jul 02 - 01:37 PM
Ebbie 14 Jul 02 - 01:31 PM
greg stephens 14 Jul 02 - 02:39 PM
Barry Finn 15 Jul 02 - 12:15 AM
John Minear 21 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM
Charley Noble 21 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM
Steve Gardham 22 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM
Lighter 22 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM
Steve Gardham 22 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 22 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM
Lighter 22 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM
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John Minear 22 Jan 10 - 09:31 PM
Lighter 23 Jan 10 - 12:16 AM
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John Minear 23 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM
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Charley Noble 25 Jan 10 - 10:30 AM
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Charley Noble 25 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM
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shipcmo 27 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM
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Subject: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 06:07 AM

In Stan hugill's shanty book he refers to the list of shanties Dana mentioned in "two years before the mast". He then lists the ones he has located, still in existence. The ones Hugill reckoned are lost are:

Heave to the girls
Hurrah hurrah my hearty fellows
Nancy O
Captain's Gone Ashore
Heave round hearty
Jack Crosstree
Neptune's Raging Fury

Now there is a good concentration of seasong people here on Mudcat. How many of these lost ones have been located post-Hugill. I know Captain's Gone Ashore has (recorded as "The captain go ashore"by the Boat Band and others). But I'm unaware of any of the others. Can anyone help shortening the list of lost songs a bit?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 10:20 AM

This could prove to be a right hornets nest.

We are all aware that traditional folk songs have regional and time variants to text, tune and title. With shanties multiply that by some and then some more.

The best Hugill could do was associate the titles of shanties that he knew, with titles mentioned by Dana. Whether they were the same shanties, or not, is anybodys guess. Similarly, shanties mentioned by Dana may still exist under other titles. To complicate that further, we do not know if the titles given by Dana were in common usage, or whether they were merely of his own reference.

Two Years Before the Mast is an excellent read, but it says nothing other than we sung this or that song. There are no lines quoted from the shanties other than title.

What I will say about shanties, is that over the last twenty something years that I've looked into them, the more I've learned the less I KNOW. Too many people try to give definative answers, because they read it in this book or that book. Hugill, Whall, Terry, Doeflinger etc. could only give a snapshot as an example from their own time. None of them say THIS is THE correct version.

The very nature of the job of shantyman, and purpose of the shanties themselves made them a very fluid form. To try to pin that down to definatives is like trying to glue wind to a wall. If you succeed it ain't wind, and if you don't it keeps moving and changing.

The job of the shantyman was to get the maximum amount of work out of the minimum number of bodies, by setting the pace and rhythm of the tasks, and maintaining moral. The length of time any job would take would depend on a number of factors, number of men, their physical condition, weather etc. So on any two days, the same job may take different lengths of time, and consequently, the number of verses of any shanty bawled out by the same shantyman would vary. Verses would be dropped, added in, borrowed, or made up as required. Multiply that by the number shantymen there were over a how ever long shanties were sung (a whole new debate), and however many lanuages they were sung in. Titles too, were more a common term of reference than actual title. So two shantymen on different ships, may well have known the same shanty by different 'titles'. Compare this picture with some of the adament answers expressed in the Yellar Girls thread! mmmmm!

I said it was a hornets nest! Sorry I can't actually answer your question, Greg. Still perhaps the next person who posts can give the definative answer.

Personally, I find the vast number of possibilities makes the subject much richer than knowing all there is to know about folk music. A few lost shanties, or maybe unassociated titles is a small price to pay.

Good hunting

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 10:29 AM

I now what youBrian: but I'm just hoping for a few guesses, songs with Dana's title in the chorus, whatever. I found the Captain Go Ashore quite easily: cant believe the others have all floated away.
Couldnt agree more about certainty and shanties: I received two "corrections" when I quoted shanties in an earlier thread. People informed me of the "right" versions!!


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 10:42 AM

the is a Neptune's Raging fury at the Bodleian Library Broadside collection - though it doesn't resemble a shanty to me.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 10:49 AM

Greg. Sorry. I didn't mean to preach to the converted.

I think some shanties may have fallen out of use, or disappeared beneath the waves in an old shantymans head. It's all part of the 'never know what you've lost 'til it's gone' syndrome. Collecting and recording them didn't start 'til they were falling out of use.

Have you read Dana's TYBTM? I can recommend it. I was given a copy when I was a lad (a while ago!!) and couldn't make head nor tail of it so it sat on the shelf. Years later, it got metioned in folk circles, so went home dug it out. Damn near read the print off it since!

Guesses? Now that different! I'll see if I can find some.

regards

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 10:52 AM

When I spoke with Stan several times prior to his regretted demise, he told me that he had placed several of his bawdiest with Gershon Legman, who had not yet gotten around to including them in a book. It is possible that some of the 'lost sheep' can be found among that group. I would be willing to commit my publisher to publishing these or others in hard form when there is enough material to make at least a 'decent' pamphlet.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:00 AM

Mmario. I dont think all these have to be actual shanties: I'm afraid I havent got the Dana book to hand, only the Hugill references: but as far as I can recall, Dana mentions some songs specifically as worksongs, and some other which werent necessarily for working, just sung."Neptunes raging Fury" may be one of those. I'll try and chase this up.
Brian, yes, I have read Dana, but a long time ago. I have it somewhere in a box( I moved houserecently and havent unpacked everything). I've just had a look, in order to check the songlist, but I can't immediately find it.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:12 AM

Looks like I might have to get TYBTM out and read it again (oh the hardship!) and make note which were shanties, and what else they sung. NRF looks like a possible. It doesn't sound like a shanty title, more broadside ballad to me.

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:23 AM

"Neptune's Raging Fury; or, The Gallant Seaman's Sufferings" (the same version as is linked to by MMario) is in Christopher Stone's Sea Songs and Ballads (Oxford, 1906, pp. 22-25; words only). I don't think it to be a shanty, either.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: masato sakurai
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:54 AM

From Two Years before the Mast:

The sailor's songs for capstans and falls are of a peculiar kind, having a chorus at the end of each line. The burden is usually sung, by one alone, and, at the chorus, all hands join in, -- and the louder the noise, the better. With us, the chorus seemed almost to raise the decks of the ship, and might be heard at a great distance, ashore. A song is as necessary to sailors as the drum and fife to a soldier. They can't pull in time, or pull with a will, without it. Many a time, when a thing goes heavy, with one fellow yo-ho-ing, a lively song, like "Heave, to the girls!" "Nancy oh!" "Jack Cross-tree," etc., has put life and strength into every arm. We often found a great difference in the effect of the different songs in driving in the hides. Two or three songs would be tried, one after the other; with no effect; -- not an inch could be got upon the tackles -- when a new song, struck up, seemed to hit the humor of the moment, and drove the tackles "two blocks" at once. "Heave round hearty!" "Captain gone ashore!" and the like, might do for common pulls, but in an emergency, when we wanted a heavy, "raise-the-dead" pull, which should start the beams of the ship, there was nothing like "Time for us to go!" "Round the corner," or "Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!" (CHAPTER XXIX; underlines mine; also HERE)

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: radriano
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 12:04 PM

I think I would agree about shanty titles sometimes being misleading. There really are no definitive versions, both in tune and text.

In fact, if I can get on my soapbox for a moment here, I'm irked by all the threads on Mudcat about what are the best songs or dance tunes or whatever. And while I'm on the soapbox, this is exactly why I don't care for the "Rise Up Singing" book. Rise Up Singing is one collection of songs. It is by no means a definitive collection of folk songs and should not be thought of as a song bible. Whew, sorry about that, but I do feel better now.

Oh yeah, we're talking about shanties. Right.

As mentioned earlier, it's unfortunate that many people consider any song about the sea to be a shanty. To further complicate things some shanties were originally music hall songs or folk songs heard by sailors and taken to sea to be turned into shanties, like Hoby Deri Dando (sp?). Stan Hugill is a great source but he was not always totally correct about everything. Greg mentions seven titles in his original posting here and I realize that we're only talking about references from one book but there are probably loads of shanties lost in time. And some of the shanties in existing collections are probably made up for publication anyway. What I'm refering to here are shanties whose lyrics are too artsy to have been sung by hairy shellbacks at sea.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 12:10 PM

Well, sure, Radriano. But I'm just proposing a little song-chasing exercise here, looking for the seven lost songs on this specific list of Hugill's. We seem to have two so far. Good hunting for the others.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 12:26 PM

At last we seem to have found a thread for people without the 'Definitive Book of Folk Songs'. I thought I was the only one without a copy!

Radriano. Quite right. Songs did flow between land and sea. The shantyman that was afraid of stealing a verse or the whole song if it was worth stealing was no shantyman. But as you say there were work songs (shanties) and entertainment songs (forebitters). I doubt that sailors were anywhere near as choosie as todays 'authorities' on what could or couldn't be sung. They just got on and did it, and bugger where it came from.

Who makes up these rules, anyway?

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: MMario
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 02:04 PM

no luck on "Jack Crosstree" - but did find this definition:A bar of iron athwart ships at a topgallant masthead, to support a royal mast, and give spread to the royal shrouds; -- called also jack crosstree.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 04:41 PM

As mentioned above, "Fall over Screaming" is just one collection. In many ways, it is notable more for what is missing than for what is there.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 04:46 PM

Well I have been trying to keep this on thread but I'd better drift off slightly myself. What is this "Rise up singing" book? What is so good/bad about it?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 05:01 PM

What joy! A search for missing sea shanties! Where's my time machine?

"Hello, Mr. Brown, do you know any sea shanties?"

"Sure, me boy. Why don't you walk with me over to Billy & Harry's Saloon over on Davis Street and I'll sing you a few. Now, let me buy you a drink."

"Why thanks, Mr. Brown. This tastes mighty sweet for whiskeyyyyyy......"

TIME PASSES SLOWLY AS THE WHITEHALL BOAT ROWS OUT INTO THE HARBOR TOWARD THE "BENJAMIN F. PACKER" AND AS THE BOATMEN DRAW CLOSER YOU WOULD HEAR AN UNCOLLECTED CAPSTAN SHANTY IF YOU WERE ONLY CONSCIOUS...

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 11 Jul 02 - 11:49 PM

Yes, Charley, to have been aboard ships circa 1840-1860 with a tape recorder, through the magic of time travel! Hugill lamented the probably hundreds of West Indian shanties lost forever.

There are magical moments, though, when old songs are "found," - like the rowing songs and whaling shanties Roger Abrahams collected in the 1960s, or when the Barroullie Whalers at Mystic sang the rarely heard "Bulldog," which is not found in Abrahams or Hugill/Colcord/Doerflinger, etc. A friend who is a scholar of Pacific Island sea music hears an old woman sing a song that has been passed on to her by her parents, from their parents. So, there are some rare glimmers of hope for finding old songs.

Finding all these, though, sounds pretty daunting. Greg, have you contacted any of the current scholars of sea music? Bob Walser and Stuart Frank come to mind. Who knows if they know something others missed. Worth a try, I'd think.

I vehemently disagree with Radriano and Brian over Rise Up Singing!!! It is indeed the last word on folksongs, containing every song worth singing, with the absolute correct number of verses.

(Just kidding, guys).

chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:39 AM

Well, Cahntyranger,it doesn't seem a very daunting task to me. Impossible, probably, but not dauntng.No, seriously, there are seven songson it and two are knocked off already.I would be very surprised if the rest (or at least some) havent been recorded in the Caribbean sometime: and quite possibly out on CD or published in books. 2/7 in a few hours aint bad.I'll bet we soon have some more.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 04:09 AM

Chantyranger's comment about Pacific islands is interesting. My thoughts were directed towards the Caribbean as the obvious repository for old English language sea songs, lurking in the huge number of field recordings made there, or still being sung. I'm not too familiar with what is knocking around in the Pacific, but surely theremust be loads of stuff remembered in the islands there as well. Anyone know anything about that? Coincidentally I am going out to eatand sing with the three members of Manuhiri(Pacific women singers, in England for Raise the Spirits festival) tonight. I'll ask them. That's what good about Mudcat, my sights were set on the Caribbean. Thanks for pointing me in another direction.
You'd be surprised where songs turned up. The tape on which I found "The Captain go ashore" had a lot of fabulous obsccure caribbean stuff on, and I was having a bit of transcription difficulty. SoI went to the Caribbean Ladies' Lunch Club in Stoke-on-Trent(industrial city, midddle of England) and asked if any of the elderly ladies could help. Not only could they help, in no time I was listening three Jamaicans singing one of the songs on the tape("Going down Emmanuel Road"), while kneeling on the floor with saucers in their hands, showing me how to play the game associated with the song. None of them had gven the song a thought since leaving Jamaica in the 50's, but there it was, safe in memory in Stoke.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 04:57 AM

Hi Guys! I've been long away at sea.

Now look 'ee 'ere Chanteyranger me lad. You come on board my ship wi' one o' them there noo fangling tape recording things, and I'll pitch 'ee and it over the side. Bad magic is what it be, I says!

Just one point Chanteyranger, I never mentioned 'Rise Up Singing'. Perhaps you took my reference to the 'Definitive Book of Folk Songs' to mean that. I was just making the point that some people KNOW all the RIGHT versions, so they must own a copy of the folk song bible (whatever it's actually called). I just don't have a copy myself. Besides, I have other things on my mind when I 'rise up'.:-)

Greg. I think Chanteyranger is right that finding all of them is at least unlikely. I think the best that can be hoped for is vague references that could be possible. It's fine as a bit of fun, or as speculative possibilities. The danger is that the Song Police then start to take it seriously and use it as fact, which I am sure is not your intention.

My feeling is that a lot of shanties were lost in the (roughly) hundred years between the books of Dana and Hugill. Also, geographical location (Dana - America, Hugill - sailing out of UK) would have some effect on what songs and shanties they came across. Obviously, there would be common ground, but there would also be differences too. So, I think Chanteyrangers suggestion that Bob Walser and Stuart Frank may have something to add is worth considering.

cheers

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:04 AM

It is just a bit of fun, but with a point. If we have a look, if we dont find what we're looking for, we can be damn sure we'll find something equally interesting along the way.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:24 AM

Fair point, Greg. I like it. I'll be interested to hear what your meal and sing tonight turns up.

Best of luck

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 08:59 AM

The other comment I would make about Dana's observations is that he doesn't use the term "sea shanty/chantey/chanty" but simply says "sailor's songs" or "work songs." Apparently the term hadn't been invented yet. Dana's observations are among the earliest which focus on these songs we love to sing; it's a true pity that no one has run across his private manuscript of lyrics and tunes. Maybe I'll recreate one and make my millions!

I bet one of the scholars mentioned above knows where Dana's private papers are held. Or is this another case of "Who would want this mouldy old sea chest full of papers? Toss it out!"

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 09:34 AM

In my copy of TYBTM it states

.....His seafaring experiences also led him to prepare and publish (in 1841) 'The Seaman's Friend' (or, as it was called in England, 'The Seaman's Manual'), containing a glossary of sea-terms, laws respecting duties of masters and marines, &c.

In addition to these, Dana wrote several other works, including 'Biographical Sketches', 'To Cuba and Back', 'A Vacation Voyage', besides a large number of reviews, many of which were afterwards collected and published in a volume.

Unfortunately, no mention of sea songs. I have never seen any of his other works, so don't know what they contain.

The Intro goes on to say he died in Rome in 1882. So, if any papers are still in existence, they may not be in the US, anyway.

Brian


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 11:00 AM

The most important part of picking up unlisted traditional material is simply to be where the people who know it are. I once picked up an unlisted couplet in the middle of the afternoon in Brooklyn on Labor Day Weekend from an old guy who used to be a whaler in the Caribbean. Once you have the basic material, you have to be persistent in filling in the blanks, even if that means you have to go on collecting trips to exotic places. Isn't that rough? Of course, you may find yourself outward bound on an unplanned voyage, but that is the definition of adventure.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 12:41 PM

Collecting in exotic places, indeed. I'm waiting for the grant to go to St Kitts, but in the meantime I'll keep working on Stoke, with its long-overlooked jewels.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: pattyClink
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:10 PM

Great stories, greg and ebarnacle, on listening to old folks who still had the old songs.

Cool thread. I sure don't have any leads on the 'missing songs'.

I would like to tell anybody who hasn't read "Two years before the mast" to read it, especially if you have spent any time in California or have the slightest interest in history or the sea. It is a well-written, absorbing, delightful, profoundly fascinating read.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 03:25 PM

Sorry, Brian, but I did misinterpret you to have meant RUS. Well, at least I got to vent a little about how that book is often used. Your point, though, is very well taken.

chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: radriano
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 05:12 PM

I'm afraid the references to "Rise Up Singing" were my fault. I was venting in an earlier post to this thread.

And Greg, I didn't mean to be critical with my remarks. It would indeed be great to find those songs.

But speaking of Abrahams' collections from the Pacific Islands I have an observation to make. For the most part the songs he collected did not have story lines which is a typical feature of sea songs from that area. "Grey Goose Come Home", one of the songs Abrahams collected, I originally heard sung by an English shanty band replete with something of a story line in it. I'll bet many a song underwent this kind of transformation as songs passed from Pacific Island traditions to English traditions.

Greg, "Rise Up Singing" is a collection of songs put out by Sing Out! (the folk song magazine). It's very popular in a lot of circles, loved by many and detested by some. The problem is that if everyone uses that one collection we miss out on the myriad of variants in existance. Just as there is no definitive version of any folk song there is also no definitive collection of folk songs. Problem is that a lot of folks consider RUS to be the bible of songs and arrive at any gathering with book in hand. And some people don't even bother to learn lyrics of a song 'cause they have the book with them. Okay, okay, enough said.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 06:19 PM

To clear up some confusion, Abrahams's study is of West Indies shantying, in the Carribbean. My reference to Pacific Island songs was to help make the point that old songs are still being found. Greg, not suggesting that the Pacific Islands are a source to look for the songs you're searching for.

Well said, Radriano, on RUS.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 06:39 PM

"Deep the water, shallow the shore" goes the old West Indies rowing song, and so may it be with the insights of us land-bound aspiring shanty singers. Not that such a liklihood should discourage us from the search, which is most of the fun. Just don't count on a successful catch.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 12 Jul 02 - 08:44 PM

Know what you mean about them song books.I was vaguely running(in a non-prescriptive way) a bit of an informal pissed up session in the peel sailing Club(Isle of Man) at the boatfest last w/end, and there were a group of people with a big folder of song words at the table.And they were leafing through their bloody book when anyone kicked in with a song, and joining in with the words off the song-sheets. Completely oblivious to the fact that the singer who had started the song was singing something completely different. I'm not convinced that this new-fangled policy of teaching everyone to read at school is a good idea.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:54 AM

Shouldn't there be a superhero who's job it is to swoop down and grab these songsters?


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Subject: ADD: The captain go ashore
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 06:20 AM

Well here we all are sitting on bollards, wearing blue jumpers, chewing tobacco(always spitting to loo'ard) and talking of this and that. But to revert to some hard content.

THE CAPTAIN GO ASHORE
(fron "The Real Bahamas" recording, also covered by the Boat Band)

1: And the captain go ashore
And the sailor go too
Mind captain mind
Some evil spirit on board your boat
Come a ring ting ting
Come a ring tng ting Going round the garden of old England

2: And the captain go ashore
And the sailor go too
Mind captain mind
Some evil spirit on board your ship
Come a ring ting ting
Come a ring ting ting
Who dat? Who dat?
Sailing round the garden of old England
Come a ring ting
Come a ring ting ting
Who dat?Who dat?
Walking round the garden of old England

And the capatain go ashore
And the sailor go to
Mind captain mind
Some evil spirit on board your ship
Come a ring ting ting
Come a ring ting ting
Who dat? Who dat?
Sailing round the garden of old England


(Don't know if this is Dana's "Captain's gone ashore" but it's a fantastic poetic song.)


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 06:36 AM

Missed a line break in last line of verse 1,also a typo in same line. Maybe one of those little sweeper-uppers will come by and tidy it.Please? And delete this post.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 06:57 AM

Thanks, Greg. I have the CD (2-disc Nonesuch edition). Sound clip is HERE (sung by Frederick McQueen).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 07:00 AM

P.S. Type in "Real Bahamas"


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 07:25 AM

I don't intend to say Nancy Whisky is a related song to "Nancy O", but it has this chorus:

O whiskey, whiskey, Nancy Whiskey
Whiskey, whiskey, Nancy-o.

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 07:43 AM

There's so many Nanny/Nancy songs it's difficultto speculate,isn't it? I quite fancy a Nanny-O quoted by cahppell as being in the Roxburghe Collection.

It is Nanny Nanny Nanny O
The love i bear to Nanny O
All the world shall never know
The love I bear for Nanny-O

The tune for that got around a bit as a fiddle tune at the right sort of time. Admittedly it's nanny not nancy but that's a minor difference.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties PART II
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 08:01 AM

The Barra McNeill's(sp?) have a "Nancy O"tune or song listed, anyone familiar with them?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties PART II
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 12:58 PM

Hey, chanteyranger, didn't that guy (sorry, I forget his name;my brain is fried in the East Coast heat)who did the one-man "Two Years Before the Mast" show say that he had had some contact with a direct descendant of Dana's? Maybe that's a contact for finding personal papers.

In regard to land songs used at sea, I believe I recall hearing "Twist and Shout" and "The Itsy Bitsy Spider" used as halyard chanties.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties PART II
From: masato sakurai
Date: 13 Jul 02 - 01:37 PM

Stan Hugill says: "He [Olmstead, in Incidents of a Whaling Voyage, 1841] also mentions one [shanty] used for pulling the teeth out of the jaw of a sperm whale, O Hurrah, My Hearties O!--which may be the same as Dana's Hurrah, Hurrah, My Hearty Fellows. The Quid ["quaint little volume" published in London, 1832] also refers to another work-song, Pull Away Now, My Nancy O!, which perhaps is the one listed by Dana as Nancy O!" (Shanties and Sailors' Songs, Herbert Jenkins, 1969, p. 49)

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties PART II
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 01:31 PM

Has anyone else reached the age/stage where the brain (?)inserts words that are not there into a sentence? I'm not a particularly 'evil'minded person but I keep seeing this thread's title as 'missing panties'.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties PART II
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 02:39 PM

Someone has already started a parallel thread on Dana's panties. At least nobody has so far mentioned the old seasong "Haul'em down you Zulu warriors" and the activity it accompanies, and I won't either. You have to be very careful naming threads round here, when you see what febrile imiginations some Mudcatters have.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties PART II
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 12:15 AM

As far as what EBarnacle said earlier on (oh, oh, thread creep) about timming & putting yourself in an area where the odds of hearing something different increases, I very much have to go along with except that the odds get slimer daily as the old timers or those that knew the old timers die off. That would leave us with only collecting what already's been written or recorded. Though some of what's been written or collected may have been seen & not heard & some songs heard & not seen, so there's another area. I believe the days of finding unknown sea shanties sung by sailors that worked under sail is "nearly" gone. Maybe in the areas of the West Indies or around the Ackerland (SP?) Islands where the deep water trades outlasted most other areas (up till WWII). As to finding some of the missing shanties among the West Indies it's likely to be next to nil if not worst with only titles & no content to compare with. Some other ares that are possiblies are other traditions that may have some link. An example would be the work song "Drinking that Wine" which is found as a net hauling shanty & as a prison worksong (axe/logging) & another (IMHO) would be "Won't You Help Me To Raise'Em" found in the same fisheries as "Drinking that Wine" & found in the southern prison system as a varient of "O,Alabama".
In the late 70's I was given the title of shantyman on the museum brig, Carthaginian (Maui). I'd help in my spare time lending a hand & a voice in her restoration. An old timer, George Herbert, a master rigger from West Geelong who had worked under sail in both the Baltic & Cape Horn trades dropped by to lend a hand to some old friends of his but more to show & advise them. He loved to sing & play his concertina, uke & mouth harp. At a singing party held on board I ended up taping the whole evening & not being educated in the fine arts of collecting I was happy just to have sung with him. After playing these tapes for 15 yrs I wrote to him & up till he died we swapped tapes of sea songs (me still not finding out much about the songs except that I could only find some not so close versions in print). I never found out where he got some of these (I can make some good guesses though) but my point here is that for me it was pure blind, dumb luck (not the only time my luck has been this good to me) & with serious luck someone else may have uncovered much more at the time, the other side is that to find any old timers these days would take more than serious, blind, dumb luck. Sorry, I'll give up on my thread creep ramblings & you & me a rest, happy hunting
Barry


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

Over in another thread   thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=1 where I have been working on trying to imagine what shanties might have been sung on board the bark, "Julia Ann", on her three and half voyages from San Francisco to Sydney in the early 1850's, I was looking at the "early" references to sea shanties in the literature. Of course I came across Dana's famous list and then Hugill's famous list of Dana's list and his discussion of the "Lost Shanties". But then I hit a snag.

As near as I can tell, Hugill attributes three extra shanties to Dana that I have been unable to find anywhere in Dana, including his TO CUBA AND BACK and his THE SEAMAN'S FRIEND. They are: "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam", and "Neptune's Raging Fury". I have scanned fairly carefully the "Two Years Before the Mast" and I just don't see them.

In his 1961 edition of SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, Hugill discusses Dana on pages 9-10. And on page 562, where he gives us "Cheer Up, Sam", he says, "Another shore-song popular even in Dana's day aboard ship as a capstan song was the minstrel ditty "Cheer Up, Sam"." In neither place does he give any page numbers in Dana.

In his 1969 edition of SHANTIES AND SAILORS' SONGS, he says on page 6, with regard to "Neptune's Raging Fury", "Whether this latter has any connection with the lost shanty bearing the same title and referred to by Dana in his TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST is rather doubtful." On pages 48-49, he again lists the songs from Dana, including "Roll the Old Chariot" and "Neptune's Raging Fury" and says, "Elsewhere, he [Dana] gives "Cheer Up Sam" (which is really a minstrel song) as a shanty that they used."

In doing a Google search on "Cheer Up, Sam", I came across a number of literary references to this song, and interestingly enough a number of quotes of this line in various Australian newspapers from the 19th century. It does seem to have been well known. I did not come across a source for it. The other two songs have been well documented outside of Dana.

I did find this note in the 4th edition of W.B. Whall's SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (1920). It is on page two of that edition as an endnote following the song "Shenandoah". Whall says:

"This was not the only "song," by any means, which was used as a shanty. Dana told us long ago that one of the shanties used in his day was -

                         "Cheer up, Sam,
                         Don't let your spirits go down," etc.

which was made familiar to by the old Christy Minstrels."

So, have I just missed the references in Dana to these three shanties, or are they not there?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Jan 10 - 05:22 PM

John-

I can't find the three songs mentioned above either in the pages I marked in Dana where he discusses shanties.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM

One of the titles mentioned is 'Jack Crosstree'.
IMHO this is the sort of title used for songs by Charles Dibdin Sr and his contemporaries towards the end of the 18thc, all of 'em shore songs, usually sentimental tosh that rarely lasted long before the mast. Jack Rattlin', Tom Tackle, Ned Mizzen, Tom Halliard, Old Uncle Tom Bowling and all, old Uncle Tom Bowling and all! Sorry, got carried away.

(Not Tom Bowling, he was a real seaman from York)


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

Good going, Steve. Dana specifies this as a shanty; if it was a shore song, as you suggest, it might have been best fitted to the capstan.

Bear in mind, too, that a "jack cross-tree" was an actual iron cross-tree at the head of a t'gallant mast.

Probably not worth mentioning is the possibility that "Jack Cross-Tree!" was occasionally substituted for "John Franswah!" in "Boney."
But in that case Dana would more likely have mentioned Bonaparte rather than the chorus.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:47 PM

"Tom Tack," I assume, refers to the poem by Charles Dibdin Junior, first verse-
Tom Tack was the shipmate for duty,
Till fortune she gave him a twitch,
For Tom fell in love with a beauty-
He'd better have fall'n in a ditch:
With his fair he could get no promotion,
So Tom, like a desperate dog,
He drown'd all his cares in the ocean,-
But then, 'twas the ocean of grog.


These are the Sea Songs of Charles Dibdin, Junior, like those of T. Dibdin often carelessly ascribed to the senior Dibdin. Many are on the humorous side.

All in his Glory
A Tar's Duty
The Bowsprit of Wapping
Born at sea, and my cradle a frigate
Ben the Boatswain
Good Ship Britannia
I unshipp'd from aboard the Sky Rocket
I'm a true honest-hearted gay fellow
Jack Junk was a tar who could tether his tack
Jack Gunnel, an odd fish
Let 'em come
Lieutenant Yeo
Modes of Invasion
Naval Worthies
Old England's ship of the line
Off Cape Finisterre
Poll of Horsleydown
Pro Aris et Focis
Ready for Action
Sailor's Log Ashore
Sons of Albion, sound to arms
The Albion is a noble ship
The foe, on one string always strumming
Tom Tack was the shipmate for duty
The Obstinate Dog
When a sailor goes to sea
We're told that our foes to invade us intend
Your grave politicians may kick up a rout
Ye landsmen and ye seamen

From Songs of Charles Dibdin, with a Memoir, collected and arranged by T. Dibdin, Admiralty Edition, George Bell and Sons.

The Addena include the songs of T. Dibdin, and the Sea Songs of C. Dibdin. Jun.

Songs of T. Dibdin include "Poll of Wapping Stairs," "Sam Splicem," "Tobacco, Grog and Flip," etc.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:55 PM

"Jack Ratlin" and "Tom Bowling" are by Dibdin Sr.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM

Jonathan
Yes, I saw the Jack Crosstree reference earlier in the thread which is what made me think of Dibdin's efforts. There was a Jack at the Windlass, Jack Binnacle, Jack Brace, Jack Junk, Jack Ketch, Jack Oakum, Jack Steadfast, so Jack Crosstree seems inevitable. Is there a Boney version with JC in it?

The actual Dana passage certainly puts it down as a lively work song, but it could have been a Dibdin song adapted. Some of Dibdin's choruses are imitative of the earlier shouts like 'Yeo, heave ho'

Hugill in 'Shanties and Sailor Songs' says of 'Cheer up, Sam' 'ELSEWHERE, he gives Cheer up Sam as a shanty they used.' This suggests to me that 'Elsewhere' meant not in 'Two years before the Mast' but in some of his other writing.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:01 PM

"Cheer Up, Sam, or Sarah Bell," is in American Memory; an 'Ethiopian' song, 1856.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:12 PM

Q, useful list.

Steve, no "Jack Cross-Tree" version of "Boney" that I know of. Just idle speculation.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM

Steve, the only place I can think of where the missing songs might be would be Dana's "Journal," ed. by Robert Lucid (Harvard U. P.), but that wasn't published till 1968.

I may be able to check this for you in the library over the weekend.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 22 Jan 10 - 09:31 PM

This is probably a long shot, but see what you think. I did a Google search on "Heave to the girls" and found a couple of interesting things. First of all there was this from William Clark Russell's book MAROONED (1898):

http://books.google.com/books?id=tAsXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=%22Heave+,+to+the+girls%22&source=bl&ots=-Ojmc7t-TC&sig=XrcEcK

Granted this is not a shanty, but about a mate calling for a shanty. But then there is this from A SHIP OF SOLACE, by Eleanor Mordaunt (1911). Look at the fourth verse:

http://www.archive.org/stream/ashipsolace00mordgoog#page/n310/mode/2up

And there is this from John Ward's web page, which he says is from Frank Shay's IRON MEN AND WOODEN SHIPS. However, this is not what I find in Shay so I'm not sure where it is from. Again, check the fourth verse:

http://www.jsward.com/shanty/rio/away_rio.html

In at least two versions of "Rio Grande" there is a verse that has the line "heave to the girls" or "heave to the maidens". I have not found any other instances of this in other versions of "Rio Grande" but I haven't checked that many. I suppose that if Dana was referring to this shanty he would have called it by the name of "Rio Grande" but it is an intriguing coincidence.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 12:16 AM

Great detective work, John.

Basil Lubbock's 1902 "Round the Horn Before the Mast," which is set in 1899, gives this complete couplet as part of "Away Rio!":

We'll sing as we heave to the maidens we leave....
You know at this parting how sadly we grieve....

Besides Mordaunt, something similar also appears in "Blue Water," by the Canadian novelist F. W. Wallace.

I don't recall seeing a similar couplet in any other song.

Whether it's related to Dana's shanty I don't know, but I do agree that if he'd heard "Rio Grande," he'd likely have used that or a similar title (like "Away, Rio")rather than a phrase in one of the couplets.

I suspect that "Heave to the Girls!" was a chorus or part of one.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 07:56 AM

Q, thanks for the American Memory reference on "Cheer Up, Sam" for 1856. If it is not found in Dana, do we know when it went to sea, and do we have any other references to it other than Hugill and Whall as a shanty?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 02:54 PM

I apologise. I should have checked my broadside indexes straight away.
'Cheer up, Sam' was printed on broadsides by Williamson of Newcastle 1856-67, Pearson of Manchester, Sanderson of Edinburgh and Hodges of London and there is a broadside at the Bodleian Broadside website Firth b27 (179) all about the same period, certainly none predating 1850 so it looks like the American Memory sheet music is probably the original.
In my shanty index no texts turn up under that title.

Re 'Heave to the girls'. I also don't think anyone would quote that part of the 'Rio' versions. In effect its meaning crosses two lines,
We'll sing as we heave,
To the maidens we leave.
It distorts the meaning if you take out the said phrase.

A long shot....a distortion/oral version of 'Here's to the maiden of bashful fifteen' taken to sea? 'here's to the girls'.

Another suggestion...toasts of that nature were very common in the early 19thc and some of them were in the form of a sung verse. Could 'here's to the girls' have been misheard as 'Heave to the girls'??


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Since Dana's "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" and "Tally high ho! you know" have both been identified, I'm wondering if they are the same as these two songs, and if they are, how were they used as shanties?

First of all, "Dandy ship and a dandy crew" as found here in SONGS OF THE SEA AND LAYS OF THE LAND, by Charles Godfrey Leland, (1895) p. 104-105:

http://books.google.com/books?id=mnIUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Songs+of+the+Sea+and+Lays+of+the+Land%22&source=bl&ots=L9r1

And is "Tally high ho? you know" the same as "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee Crew", found here in a book called SONG BOOK FOR THE USE OF THE COMMANDERY OF THE STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA (1883) p.18-19:

http://www.archive.org/stream/songbookforuseof00mili#page/18/mode/2up

And here in a novel by Captain Mayne Reid called OCEOLA (1859) p. 254 and 262:

http://www.archive.org/stream/oceola02reid#page/254/mode/2up

And here in a book entitled "'The Rough and Ready Songster: Embellished with Twenty-Five Splendid Engravings, Illustrative of the American Victories in Mexico. By an American Officer' " (1848) p. 200-201:

http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1245:1.lincoln

And here in an antique print from 1837:

http://www.hylandgranby.com/marine_antiques_paintings_details.asp?itemID=PR1139


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 04:24 PM

Leland's song is a good guess. But Dana's phrase appears in a number of shanties. "De Boatman Dance" was a minstrel hit, but was it around in 1834?

Leland tells us that he's incorporated some old song into his own poems, but pointedly will not say where. What he does say is, "This is not a folklore book."

Interestingly enough, one of his own poems is called "Time for Us to Go," and the chorus begins with those words. This could mean that he actually heard the shanty mentioned by Dana, maybe at the same time he heard "A Dandy Ship."

OTOH, maybe he just picked up these phrases from Dana's book and built his own lyrics around them. As an American writer of the 19th C., Leland he was surely familiar with "Two Years."

The text of "A Yankee Ship and a Yankee Crew" seems too elaborately poetic to make a good shanty, but the song was obviously very popular and a shantyman might well have used the "Yankee ship" lines with their repeated refrains as the basis for a shanty.

A better candidate for Dana's shanty may be "Tally-I-O!" recorded about 1928 by J. M. Carpenter from James Wright, who went to sea in 1864. Unfortunately that's a full generation after Dana, but the shanty may have been losing popularity for a long time since I can't think of any other texts of it. It is very hard to understand Wright's words - again unfortunately:

                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!
                Tally-I-O was a jolly old soul,
                        Come tally-I-O, you know!        

                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                What should I do with my rum, Tally-O?
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                We'll tell [?them we're sober] O Tally-O!
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                We'll tell [?them we're sober], O Tally-O!
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!

                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        Tally-I-O! Tally-I-O!        
                Tally-I-O was a [?drunken] old soul,
                        And sing tally-I-O, you know!


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 05:33 PM

I have a date of 1843 on 'Dance the Boatman'. There are at least 3 copies of the sheet music in the Levy Collection.
Box 18 nos 28,29,30
Box 59 number 36 has a note


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:37 PM

The people at Folktrax identify Mr. Wright's "Tally-I-O" with the shanty "Tiddy-I-O" found in Sharp and in Hugill (in different forms). Here is the Folktrax link (scroll down):

http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/search%20for%20titles_ti.htm

Here is Sharp's version from ENGLISH FOLK-CHANTEYS p. 46:

http://www.archive.org/stream/englishfolkchant00shar#page/46/mode/2up

And Hugill's version can be found on page 452 of the 1961 edition of SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS.

All of this has been discussed at some length over in the "Rare Caribbean shanties" thread, particularly here (the posts in that thread seemed to be in reverse order):

thread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=75&page=1&desc=yes#2675765

It's not clear that any of these three possibilities, from Mr.Wright (Carpenter), Mr. Rapsey (Sharp) or Mr. Smith (Hugill) is the shanty mentioned by Dana.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jan 10 - 09:52 PM

I am wondering if there is any general agreement on the current identity of any of the shanties listed by Dana in TWO YEARS BEFORE THE MAST, here (scroll down to page 285):

http://books.google.com/books?id=SXQaAAAAYAAJ&dq=Richard+Henry+Dana+%22Two+Years%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=ucVUS

To overdo the obvious one more time, they are:

"Heave, to the girls!"
"Nancy O!"
"Jack Crosstree"
"Cheerly, Men"
"Heave round hearty!"
"Captain gone ashore!"
"Dandy ship and a dandy crew"
"Time for us to go!"
"Round the corner"
"Tally high ho! you know"
"Hurrah! hurrah! my hearty bullies!"

I have been seeing lots of tantalizing hints, but can we really identify any of these shanties? The more I read the more skeptical I become. I believe this thread started long ago with an assumption that some had been identified and some were "lost". Are Hugill's own conclusions on this matter holding up to today's scrutiny?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 06:56 PM

Apart from "Cheerly, Men" is there any consensus on the identity of these other songs?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Jan 10 - 07:20 PM

John-

"Round the Corner" is well documented, first as a field song "Round the Corn, Sally" and then as the shanty "Round the Corner, Sally." The sailors referred to Cape Horn as the "corner" in question. There are abundant threads here on this song.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 08:53 AM

Thanks, Charley. This is helpful. Would it be possible to share some of those links? I seem to be having trouble finding any links these days. I was even wondering if there was a problem with the search function.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 10:30 AM

John-

Hugill's discussion is on pp. 297-298, SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS.

Here's the lyrics of the field song with notes:

ROUN' DE CORN, SALLY

(corn husking song collected by slaveholder James Hungerford's The Old Plantation and What I Gathered There in an Autumn Month, c. 1832, quoted in THE MUSIC OF BLACK AMERICANS by Eileen Southern, pp. 180)

Grand Chorus:

Hooray, hooray, ho! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray for all de lubly ladies! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray, hooray, ho! Roun' de corn, Sally!
Hooray for all de lubly ladies! Roun' de corn, Sally!

Dis lub's er (a) thing dat's sure to hab you, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He hole you tight, when once he grab you, Roun' de corn, Sally!
Un ole un ugly, young un pretty, Roun' de corn, Sally!
You needen try when once he git you, Roun' de corn, Sally! (CHO)

Dere's Mr. Travers lub Miss Jinny, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He thinks she is us (as) good us any, Roun' de corn, Sally!
He comes from church wid her er (on) Sunday, Roun' de corn, Sally!
Un don't go back ter town till Monday, Roun' de corn, Sally! (CHO)

More Notes:

"Round De Corn, Sally," first collected when used as a rowing song, had at least one more verse in Hungerford, two lines of
which are given, along with yours, in Dena J. Epstein, "Sinful Tunes and Spirituals." Are the other two lines in your reference?

Epstein gives the sheet music on p. 169 of her book:

Dere's Mr Lucas lub Miss T'resser,
Un ebery thing he does ter please her;

Quoting from Epstein (from Hungerford); "When a passenger (on the boat, coastal Maryland) requested "Round de Corn,
Sally," she was told 'Dat's a corn song, un we'll hab ter sing it slow ter row to." They sang it, improvising words to fit the
members of the party.

Evidently the field song also became the basis for a minstrel song, according to Hugill.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 11:47 AM

Gee, except for the one phrase, those lyrics aren't anything like the shanty. My guess is that sailors just liked the sound of it, and the musical phrase that carried it, and just took it from there.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 12:23 PM

Lighter-

Exactly!

It's the same with "Coal Black Rose" and any number of other shanties which can be traced to field songs or minstrel songs.

"The words" of any shanty, beyond the first verse and chorus, were generally just a snapshot what a shantyman happened to be singing. It's only be cause we've learned them, generally, from the printed page that we assume the lyrics were uniform for any one song.

Even the melody, as Bob Walser has documented, generally varies after the first verse and chorus.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM

Which might mean that some of the 'tantalising hints' referred to above could be as close to the truth as we're gonna get.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 03:49 PM

The usual case, Steve, as I think you know.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

But the fun is in the details!

And the real fun is leading one.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

Charley,
I'm with you there. I'm as happy belting out a shanty as I am warbling a Child ballad.
And as a singer I see no need to stick to the printed page or the songs I pick up from other singers.
I assume the best and most treasured shantymen were those who improvised their verses and had a good dig at those not heaving or pulling.
I know I'd pull twice as hard if I was listening to the mate being slagged off or the shantyman's latest conquests ashore.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Barbara
Date: 25 Jan 10 - 05:21 PM

First, I'm not a scholar like so many of you in this discussion, so this may be a really dumb question. Reading through your remarks has made me wonder if the "Cheerily Men" one could have any relation to the 19th century whaling song "Bonny Ship the Diamond" whose chorus is:

For it's cheer up my lads
Let your hearts never fail
For the bonnie ship the Diamond
Goes a-hunting for the whale

Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 08:36 PM

I've examined the index of Dana's "Journals" for titles and first lines, plus entries on "songs," "music," and "singing," and skimmed all three volumes without finding a mention of the songs Hugill attributes to Dana.

The journals weren't published till 1968, which makes it extremely unlikely that Hugill had any access to them whuile he was writing his own book, published in 1961.

The journals, by the way, do not cover the years 1834-36.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Jan 10 - 09:46 PM

The chanty's identity lies in the chorus and, perhaps, a melody hook (or general melodic contour). HIP HOP HURRAY, HO, HEY! The rest is expendable. However, the first line or lines ("regulation" lines, in Hugill's parlance) are often consistent because they clue in the chorus on what chanty is being sung so they can come in correctly the first time.

My take is like this
Tiddy I O

I mean c'mon -- Chanties minus working context equals almost pure textual emphasis. (Though you do find people trying to groove to the meager beats, whereas they'd do better at a dance club.) In a "performance," if someone is just going to repeat the same ol' words from a record/book/folkie every time for the entire song...yawn. No wonder why the "younger generation" doesn't give a toot: nothing new being said, no contemporary relevance. The only way they can get into it is through pyrate gimmicks, or if by chance they fall into a local maritime program, or if they are goody-two shoes that like to impress their folkie grandparents.

On the other hand, it is of the greatest importance for writers to have collected the many verse lyrics of chanties they heard, not because they are a prescription for performance, but because they show the *kinds* of lyrics being sung and provide so many textual *clues* to what/when/where was going on.

Sorry to drift away...


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 09:45 AM

Gibb-

Thanks for chiming in.

Frank Bullen, an old shantyman, who was finally persuaded by friends to publish a book on the subject, SONGS OF SEA LABOUR, © 1914, was emphatic that only the first verse, and maybe the second, and the chorus were regular for any particular song. And that is why in his book he only provided the basic lyrics for some 40 shanties. The extraordinary value of the book though is the musical notation provided by his friend W. F. Arnold.

One still wishes he had included all the other verses he knew, or at least had donated them to a museum or library. Maybe he did! Anyone checked in the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich lately? It is a treasure chest of such stuff, and descriptions of their archives are now available on-line.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 10:35 AM

Nice work again, Gibb! I completely agree with your take on present-day shanty singing.

Hugill is absolutely the best single authority for words and music. But he conflates his texts - partly to get the book published at all, partly because, as he frankly tells us, he always sang the songs from memory and seems never to have written them down while he was a shantyman himself. I'm often struck by how far superior Hugill's versions are to those recalled by Doerflinger's shantymen and others.

Hugill's versions, except when he indicates otherwise, are therefore partly as he remembers them (which includes minor forgetting and adding), partly extended by the inclusion of as many published stanzas as he could find (and he may have tweaked these slightly), and in a case like "Boney," partly arranged in the most rational order.

An unusually creative guy like Hugill must have invented any number of his own verses while at sea. There's no way of knowing how many of his own improvisations appear in his texts: possibly many, possibly none. There's no reason to assume either that, decades later, he could (or felt any need to) distinguish his own verses from any others. As a genuine shantyman, anything he may have sung was "authentic." But from looking at Hugill's work alone, we can't know what was likely to have been sung in the mid 19th C., for example.

I'm often struck by how far superior Hugill's versions are to those recalled by Doerflinger's shantymen and others.


More opinions:

Except for the nature of the tunes, actual shanty singing wasn't nearly as compelling as folkies think. The shantyman's indispensible talents were a strong voice, a good repertoire of songs, either a good number of verses or the ready ability to improvise, and more or less the ability to carry a tune.

Like people today, many sailors had poor voices or were tone-deaf: that wouldn't keep them from chorusing. We know that except for black Caribbeans, sailors almost never sang shanties in harmony. Acoustics on shipboard, in the open air, with all sorts of ambient noise, were poor. (Nowadays we think the ambient creakings and clankings are romantic.) Furthermore, unless there were a good many people on shore listening (not uncommon), the shanty singers had no real incentive to "sound good." They were doing heavy work, and the shanty's sole purpose was to help do it more efficiently: one reason why bawdy and satirical verses were so popular when nobody else could hear them. That's what Huntington meant when he said that sailors didn't think of shanties "as music." They had little reason to record them in logs and journals because they were so easy to remember, so undignified in their lyrics, so dependent on improvisation and migrating verses, and so unlike socially valued music.

None of the above is meant to trash shanties or modern shanty singers. I'm simply trying to imagine real shanties as they existed in a world rather different from our own.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

Well now, I just came upon Mudcat! My only claim to knowledgein this subject (sea songs & shanties), is that I once was a part of the performing group "The Press Gang", and, I was Captain of the 16th cent reproduction "Godspeed" on her voyage from England to the US (among other vessels).
Now, as to "lost chanties'; one evening at the Last Exit On Brooklyn, as I was in my cups, a friend who had been on stage recognized me in the audience. He called me up and requested a tune, so I responded. Afterward, a young lass came over to me and wanted to know where I had "got" those verses; she had never heard them before. The truth was, I made them up as I went along.
Cheers,
Geo
p.s. In my day, I would comment that sailor's voices had been ruined by rotgut whiskey and rotten tobacco, and I had spared no effort to achieve authenticity.
G


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 04:22 PM

Welcome aboard, Cap'n. We need more sea dogs on this thread, and your nautical pedigree is impeccable.

Did your crew sing shanties on _Godpseed_ or were you too $#@#$&%authentic to allow 'em? If they did, which ones?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 07:37 PM

Well, we had authentic, working bowlines for the spritsail, so the only shanty was "haul on the bowline", and that was only when tacking. When we left London we were serenaded with "Loath to Depart". I played "Edystone Light" on my concertina as we passed.
As Archy would say, "Yours for Rum Riot"
Geo


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:28 PM

Shipcmo-

Welcome aboard from me as well. So you were part of the Press Gang; is that the Press Gang that Ken Lardner was connected with?

And were you really in the Last Exit bar on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn or some other venue in Brooklyn with a similar name? My niece and her husband run that bar!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 10 - 08:46 PM

Hi Charley,
No that was the Last Exit "ON", not "IN", a dive in Seattle. John Townley & I started The Press Gang on the East Coast ca. '81. Among other venues we did some chanteying on board the 3-masted Schooner "Alexandria", nee "Lindo", when I was Mate.
Best,
Geo


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:33 AM

Lighter, thanks for checking out Dana's journals. So the question remains, where did Hugill come up with these three songs that he attributes to Dana? They are: "Roll the Old Chariot", "Cheer Up, Sam", and "Neptune's Raging Fury". He may have gotten the reference to "Cheer Up, Sam" from Whall (this note in the 4th edition of W.B. Whall's SEA SONGS AND SHANTIES (1920). It is on page two of that edition as an endnote following the song "Shenandoah". Whall says:

"This was not the only "song," by any means, which was used as a shanty. Dana told us long ago that one of the shanties used in his day was -

                         "Cheer up, Sam,
                         Don't let your spirits go down," etc.

which was made familiar to by the old Christy Minstrels.") And then the question is where did Whall get this?

And as far as identifying the other shanties that are mentioned by Dana, there is "Cheerly Men", "Round the Corner" and maybe "Tally Hi Ho". So what's "lost" and what's "found" and who's on third?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 02:46 PM

'Cheerily', 'cheerly', show up often in speech of the mid-19th C.; they seem to have been a popular expression of the times.

One song is "Pull Away Cheerily, The Gold Diggers Song,", 1845+, two versions, Henry Russell and Harry Lee Carter; English stage. The lyrics and midi (Russell) are at pdmusic.org.

I have posted this song in a separate thread because it may not be the inspiration for the chantey.


A children's song begins,
Pull away cheerily, work with a will!
Day after day every task should be done!
Idleness bringeth ...etc., etc.
(An unlikely possibility)


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

Gibb, I wanted to respond to your perceptive comments. I think that the distinction you make between performance and historical texts (my words) with regard to shanties is very important. As you say, one probably doesn't get very far just trying to perform historical texts! I think the performance of a shanty today is in a way the handing on of a live tradition, if not of the actual working situation, at least of the singing of the song. This takes a lively shantyman with a quick imagination. One doesn't have to remember all of the verses in historical order, much less perform them!

On the other hand to try to establish the historical datability of certain texts and and to understand what they tell us about their own times is something else, and also well worth the effort.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 04:26 PM

Cheerily appears in this minstrel song, 1847:
Negro Fisherman
Ethiopian Serenaders
First lines-

Lightly our boat flies ober the sea,
Pull away merrily, sing cheerily,
Dinah is certainly waiting for me,
...........etc.

Also called The Darkey's Boat Song, sung by Murphy et al. Minstrels, 1853; slightly changed words.

In Levy Collection


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:39 PM

Cheerily, other:

John Wilson, 1800-1849

The skies are shining cheerily, cheerily,
Ho-ro, Mhari dhu, turn ye to me;
The seamew is moaning drearly, drearily,
Ho-ro, Mhari dhu, turn ye to me.
...........


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: John Minear
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Q, I sure appreciate all of this original source material on "Cheerily". Lots of possibilities.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: shipcmo
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 08:53 AM

Slightly off topic; as I just finished reading the Mystic Seaport publication of F. P. Harlow's "Chanteying Aboard American Ships", and noted that he too commented about those "not fit to print". He does however quote:
"My father's a hedger and ditcher,
My mother does nothing but spin,
While I hunt whales for a living.
Good Lord how the money comes in."


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:40 AM

Presumably he got it from Alpheus H. Verrill's "The Real Story of the Whaler" (1916).


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Jeff Keller
Date: 21 Jun 10 - 06:47 AM

I'm puzzled by the speculation on "Cheerly, Men":
Hugill explicitly identifies it as the song "Cheerily, Man" in _Shanties from the Seven Seas_ (p. 234 of my paperback edition).
--Jeff


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: GUEST,Charles Biada
Date: 23 Jun 10 - 01:11 AM

This is baseless speculation, but "Jack Crosstree" sounds like it could possibly be a punnish variant (or distant relative) of "Hanging Johnny." Perhaps even a precursor to its well-known form stemming from the proverbial Jack Ketch?


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:18 PM

Re: Editions of Dana

I remember there was a discussion of this somewhere, but it is hard to find (lots of talk of Dana in the various chanty-related threads). I remember some discussion of the different versions of Dana. Actually I think It was because we were talking about "Grog Time of Day" being there in one edition but not in another.

What I really don't remember is whether we/anyone had discussed "Tally high ho! you know" -- and the fact that it is given as a title in Dana's 1869 edition, but it did not appear in 1840s editions. (*Actually, I don't have the original 1840 at hand, but I see it is not there in 1842 and 1846 editions).

The 1869 is the "New Edition", "With subsequent matter by the author."

Would anyone care to offer a theory as to why "Tally" was added in the New Edition? I suppose the easiest explanation is that Dana later remembered this song having been sung.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 09:10 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Aug 13 - 10:00 PM

Regarding identifying other attested renditions of "Tally I O", I don't think this has been discussed. (?)

It's an example that has been right under our noses: a chanty in Abrahams' _Deep the Water_ titled "Sintali."

The whalemen of Barouallie had it in the 1960s. The singers said that it was a song about a fisherman, Sintali, who wanted to catch fish to feed his family but had no bait. He cut off parts of his body for bait, including his penis. "We don't know it is true, but we hear so from our parents' time."

Abrahams gives a score and text transcription. (I will post a rendition, soon, to give an idea of how it fits together). First verse is:

Oh, Sintali, Sintali, a poor fisherman,
    Sintali, I-yah [I hear], you know
Oh, Sintali, Sintali, who went out to sea,
    Oh, Sintali, I-yah, you know

The lines continue in typical ad-libbed fashion, about the great fisherman, couldn't get bait, what he uses as bait ("free leg", "penis", "his body", "own head").

"Sintali" clearly maps onto "sing tally" of other versions.
Abrahams had glossed "I-yah" as "I hear," though I'm not so sure about that.

From one side, we might speculate that "tally hi ho" (etc) was heard by these people as a mondegreen of sorts, which they turned into a name phrase...and then wove a narrative. From another side, however, this could be the original theme, which didn't scan for listeners from other cultures. It would explain why the "Tally i o" part was (i.e. in James Wright's rendition) sometimes in the *solo* part — in other words, it wasn't nonsense syllables. It might explain how (in Wright's words) "Tally-i-o was a jolly old soul," i.e. because it is someone's name.

The other evidence on this song so far suggests it may be from the Caribbean region. So just as this isn't necessarily the original because it is sung by Caribbean-based singers, nor would one expect them to misinterpret something from "their" region.


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Subject: RE: Hugill/Dana's missing shanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Aug 13 - 03:23 PM

Rendition of "Sintali"


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