BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???

Subject: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:43 AM

It's raining. We've had some very warm days after the snow and icestorm over Christmas and we have flooding conditions. I sit here watching the news and seeing the road closures and traffic problems created by flooded underpasses in the city and it occurs to me that in the 45 years I have been around this area, the same places flood all the time when conditions are right for flooding.

That would make sense and even be okay with me if we had never done anything to that section of town or the roads themselves, but it dawned on me that at several of these locations we have completely rebuilt the the roads and in two of them we have even added in additional roadways in the same location......and they're flooded too! Are we really that fucking stupid?

"Gentlemen, we have got to rework that entire area down at Rich and Towne. The traffic is much too heavy."
"Yes and first we should make plans to eliminate the flooding problem we have there as well."
"Gee Jim, we haven't been able to do that in 50 years."
"Exactly! So why rebuild all of this area and put in twice as many roadways if it still floods?"
"We were kinda' thinking that with twice as many roads the flooding would only be half as deep!"
"Hey! That's some good thinking there! Let's do it!"

It's not just the flooding or the roads. Everyday we see silly shit like this happening and I'll be damned if I can figure out the thinking of our "leaders." Just this very minute I saw a plan for a new interchange that anyone who lives here and has an IQ over 2 will realize that it will not solve the traffic problem in that area (thankfully, that area doesn't flood).

Sorry, that just came on and I didn't mean for this to be about roads. It just seems to me, dumbass that I am, that we are victims and/or willing participants in Barbara Tuchman's "March of Folly." I think I need to go back and reread that..................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:07 AM

I'm not sure if it's stupidity or insanity, Spawzer...

We know what Einstein had to say about insanity: repeating behavior and expecting different results...

I was listenin' to C-SPAN radio yesterday on the way home from work and they were replaying a one year celebration gathering of landing the Rover on Mars and thinking to myself, "Hmmmm, these is some purdy smart people." and then thinking about all the goofy solutions that people come up with to solve problems... That list is endless...

I remember back in the 70's when the governemnt was *trying* to build the "mixing bowl" on the Virginia side of the Potomac River (around the Pentagon). Heck, they built entire overpasses that had to be torn down because they didn't actually connect to anything...

Nah, yer right. It's stupidity with a touch of insanity...

Don't forget to wear the hip boots when ya go out today for that gallon of milk...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:10 AM

People seem to think they can be more powerful than the forces of nature. So far it ain't worked out too good, and in the long term we eventually see our so-smart works crumble.

But getting functionally smarter is covered here: CLICK!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:12 AM

Look, it's quite simple really! And if I can understand it...

Just like that flat tyre is only flat at the bottom, they're only flooded when there are flooding conditions - they're ok the rest of the year!

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:19 AM

People are a lot more powerful than the forces of nature, up to a point! :D

Seriously though, the relationship between stupidity and insanity is something like the relationship between flour and bread, I would imagine. Why, though, are we wired to get into stupidity and insajnity? There's a million-dollar question for ya.

One answer is because we're too stupid to build a working model of how the mind works, a model that provides any prediction and reliable remedy. Psychology and psychiatry, in spite of decades of study, haven't built such amodel and are pretty much hit or miss, depending on inspired individuals and compassion, or drugs.

The same model could provide a better path to education, if it was workable. Whoever invented that method of flies-in-a-shoebox education should have their head examined!

A

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:26 AM

An example from some years ago, the County Council painted yellow lines on a section of road. The next week the local council came along and resurfaced the same section which meant the lines had to be repainted. When questions were asked the reply was "that's how things were scheduled", and NO, there is no obligation for the authorities to talk to each other.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:32 AM

In our town they fixed a flooding problem in one place, only to cause a flooding problem somewhere else along the river. It was the lesser of two evils.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: gnu
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:52 AM

Old engineering adage : Given enough time and money, we can do anything. Old political adage : Do everything at half the price in half the time.

Politicians don't care about doing a proper job. They only care about getting elected. The same is true of "upper management" in public service... they just want to hang on until retirement so they don't rock the boat when the politicians run amok with their silly ideas.

I'm not saying there are no stunned engineers... I know some... they work for the City.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:58 AM

It's really quite simple, Spaw. We are so stupid because we are in the grip of the ego. The little, fearful, protesting ego. The thing that identifies itself exclusively with the mind and the body (which are both mortal) and says:

"I am completely alone, separate from all else that I see. I am in danger and need. If there is a God (which I doubt) he is impossibly far off somewhere and must be bargained with and pleased so that he will spare my miserable self from total destruction. And he probably isn't there anyway, so...I must fight and compete with those around me in order to survive. Nature and other people are a constant threat, and I must find a way to control them. I matter, others don't...unless there is something they have that I want!    Then I am willing to suck up to them and be nice until I get it. Love? Love is merely attraction, sexual desire, and need. I love only what I am attracted to and need to keep me satisfied. I don't love those whom I am not attracted to, and they are of absolutely no importance to me, unless they have money or power. Most of all, I fear death! What can I do to avoid it? I know...I'll make a shitload of money! No...wait...that won't work in the long run. Argh! I know...I'll join some crazy religion that promises me eternal salvation even after death...and...and...I'll obey all its stringent rules and regulations and persecute all those damned who don't belong to it. Then maybe (crossing fingers behind back and sweating profusely) I'll be safe at last! And if not...well, he who dies with the most toys wins. That's my credo. When you're dead, you're dead, and who cares anyway after that?"

All of the above is totally wrong, completely fallacious, and plainly destructive, but it's the way the ego thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: MMario
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:05 AM

genetics

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:09 AM

The same is true of "upper management" in public service... they just want to hang on until retirement so they don't rock the boat when the politicians run amok with their silly ideas.

Hey! I'm in that category, and frankly, I don't give a damn if the waves slosh over the sides! And I'm fairly certain that unless I come into some sort of windfall (which ain't likely) I won't be able to afford to retire! Why do you think all the little old lady librarians stayed on the job so long? Out of love of the mouthy patrons and snotty-nosed kids?

As for our stupidity: laziness has to play a huge part. It's work to do competent engineering, it's work to think up new (and workable) ideas. And it's work to dig up the money and support needed to fund a good idea, especially when those who DON'T live in the affected area are opposed because they don't want their taxes to go up.

"Hell, it's just a bunch of rednecks/greasers/old folks/young punks/etc. livin' there -- why should I give a shit? Taxes are too high anyway and besides, it ain't MY problem."

Which exemplifies my second point: selfishness and a lack of a sense of community. "I kin buy my own books, so what the hell do we need a library for? Taxes are too high already!"

Note, and not in passing, the role greed plays in all this....

The engineers could solve the problem, but the politicians don't want to hear what the engineers tell them. "It's too expensive, and besides, good ol' Jack is puttin' a new development in there -- strip malls and ever'thing! Redoing the road would put an end to all that!"

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:13 AM

Yeah, genetics does have something to do with it too...

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:34 AM

Great comments all Folks. Someone reminded me of something Jacob Bronowski said in Ascent of Man. He stated what really differentiated man from the "lower" animals was that they adapted to fit their environment whereas man adapted his environment to fit him.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:56 AM

Have you gone completely and utterly raving mad 'spaw? This has all the makings of a serious and intelligent thread. What HAVE you been doing over the hols...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:02 AM

He finally took the plunge, took my advice, and read William Shatner's book "Get A Life"...

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:14 PM

When it comes to environmental impact,there is a short-sighted view on the part of some business interests who value the bottom line over the health of citizens. Building on flood plains, attempting to dump nuclear waste in poor neighborhoods, contaminating lakes and rivers, removing regulation from protecting us from industrial pollution is a program of greed, and anti-social behavior masked by concern for the economy.

It is not in anyone's economic interest to poison the environment.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,observer
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM

Spaw, your area is no different from just about every other area in the US. There is a "simple" way to check out what the problem is. (I'm using 'simple' advisedly, because it does take a lot of time but isn't difficult).

Look at the contractors who did the building of the problem places. Now look up the names of the owners of that contracting company. You will have to get the names of the family members, too. Next look at the politicans who were in power positions at the time the contract was signed, and look at the list of contributors to them.

The connection is easy to see.

It is a neat game that they have - "I'll keep you in power if you keep me in business." And by that the builders mean "make sure I'll be doing this same work every few years."

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:02 PM

why are we so stupid?...well, I have a 4 hour lecture on the subject! Just hold on a minute and I'll go get the print out and paste it in here and you can......what?.... You don't have the time or patience or inclination to read **the answer**? Well, then...how about my 3 hour lecture on "Intelligent Land Use?"......no?....Still too long, huh?.....Perhaps my 2 hour explanation on "Geometric Population Increases"?.....I see, you have all these Mudcat threads to read, and your favorite re-run of Gilligan's Island is on soon...

well, ok....just a brief summary, then:

" There are too many damn people, breeding WAY too fast, allowing themselves to be led by too many damn short-sighted politicians and too many damn special interest lobbyists selling us Pie-in-the-sky solutions that DEPEND on us not looking beyond next month.

There...now you know why. Care to read my 6 hour explanation about what to DO about it all?

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:14 PM

We all know what's going on, Bill. Well, at least most of us do. One must try oneself to BE the change one wishes to see in the World. And I figure you know that perfectly well already. I try each day to be a better person, to help, and to do no harm.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:20 PM

BillD,

You are ( as usual) correct- but the solution that I see involves a reduction of population. Who decides? Or do we end up as the story "March of the Morons" postulates?

I have always thought emigration was the best solution, but destinations are presently in short supply. Unless we terraform Mars...

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:28 PM

Because the Rot has well and truly set in.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

Nature has a way of reducing populations when people don't have the sense to do it themselves...

(and that's not meant as a reference to the tsunami, by the way)

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:43 PM

Yes, indeed, LH, yes indeed. The planet WILL survive Mankind...and the stars don't give a damn about us.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:50 PM

When you find out just how unlikely the possibility of life ocurring on a planet is, you've just got to stand in awe of the fact that we're here at all to wonder how stupid we can be sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM

beardedbruce: PRECICELY...a reduction of population. *NO* other partial solution will avoid eventual situations such as Rapaire and LH allude to.

Who decides? No one should have to make that decision. Perhaps....a lottery? Every girl receives, at 10, an implant which may or may not be contraceptive. They will never know if they don't have children because of that, or because of other reasons....
....sure, I see the problems with administering such a program...but that is a possible direction.

(yes...I also see the socio-economic turmoil for a few decades if such a program succeeds....I like it better than a world with 77 Billion people)

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:05 PM

BillD,

The problem is that whoever is implanting MIGHT "select" the population that can reproduce. Given the conflict over votes, in the last two elections, where administered by "bipartisan" election boards, would YOU trust anyone with that kind of power?

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:20 PM

Nature already has a reproduction lottery in place and takes its own steps to manage it for good or ill to our species-amongst-species. And none of us gets a vote on it.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:32 PM

bruce... I SAID I saw the problems with administration. If a reasonable implant can be developed, I'd be willing to work on the 'selection' problem....*visions of that 77 Billion*

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: *Laura*
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 03:53 PM

In the wise words of Monty Python -

"Just remember when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
and prey that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'cos there's bugger all down here on earth"

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:08 PM

No, Bill. What is needed is to establish a society that is loving and compassionate enough that everyone has a decent level of material life, access to medical care and a good education, and freedom from fear and oppression. A society where people share the blessings of life in a reasonably equal fashion, as equal brothers and sisters. It is possible.

Under those circumstances you would find that most people would naturally choose to have smaller families, to accumulate less unnecessary stuff, and to generally rise to a higher level of awareness.

It is gross inequality, poverty, oppression, want, and fear that keep people in a miserable and deluded state of mind.

I know perfectly well what the solutions are, because I have already personally found them.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

LH,

So those who would rise to that higher level would have small families, and those who were deluded will have large families...

You REALLY need to read the story I mentioned. It is out of print, now- NOT what the PTB want you reading.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,Biskit~ just passin' through~
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:20 PM

Spaw,
first let me say Hi Bud! long time no talk to!
Now then, do I ever agree with you! I live in Tucson Az. in the past 10 years the city has tripled in size,and population. our streets are woefully inadequate to carry all the added traffic,..the solution..We'll build a bike and pedestrian bridge that looks like a diamondback rattlesnake (I'm not making this up!)and spend 3.5 million dollars on it, but then run out of money so we can't finish the bike/pedestrian path leading to or from said artistic bridge. so we'll have to raise property taxes again so we can find other artistic things to spend the money on,..of course this won't eliminate the traffic problems but it will put thousands of dollars in the pockets of our struggling artists (Artists! Ha! you should see some of this crap!) so they won't have to go out and get a real job. of course that still won't be enough so we'll raise the trash collection fee from $3.00 per month to $17.00 per month per household so they can turn a profit,....Hold on here! the trash trucks, public utilitiy vehicles,and payroll are all paid for by tax dollars and fees, you aren't supposed to make a profit you're supposed to break even, you're a public utility! owned by the public. These are points I brought up at a recent city council meeting,..and they formed several "fact finding commities" (I could never make something like this up!) to research the problems and hurrumph thank you so much for your input on this matter,..and they still haven't done anything about the streets!
~Biskit~

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Cruiser
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:49 PM

I know this may sound callous, but when I saw this thread and before I opened it up, I thought it might be about the recent tsunami disaster.

First, many people stayed in the danger area up to 2 hours after they felt the tremors of an earthquake. Then after the water receded away from its normal level, exposing more beach area, people went back to survey the damage. Then the second lethal wave hit, killing many of those people.

Now we (with financial assistance) and they are going to rebuild in the same areas. Sure it may only happen once each hundred years; that is what people that rebuild in floodplains say in the U.S.

Unfortunately there is just so much arable land in this world and the many poor people who lost everything have nowhere else to go or to make a living…a major conundrum of human life.

Human population growth and the concurrent overuse of natural resources are the 2 most immediate problems facing our existence on this earth.

This was just an analogy of the flooded street situation, only on a grand, global scale…

Cruiser (who consciously limited his number of offspring (1) to one less than the replacement rate)

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

"Under those circumstances you would find that most people would naturally choose to have smaller families, to accumulate less unnecessary stuff, and to generally rise to a higher level of awareness."

my considered response: "piffle!"..or maybe, "pooh!"

I have NO objection to "..a society that is loving and compassionate enough that everyone has a decent level of material life,..." , but not only is that not on the horizon, I'd be willing to bet a nickle that it would have negligable effect on breeding habits. Maybe a little, but not enough.

It makes no difference anyway, because unless the population is reduced first, that happy society is only a pipe dream in the heads of lucky folks like you who have opted out of the mainstream.

On this point I may get to say "I told you so", as I 'could' live another 30-40 years, and in that time the population will have grown until, without intervention, either voluntary or imposed, not even your quiet lifestyle will be safe. 6 billion will be 10-12 billion by then....

(no, I do NOT enjoy being a pessimist)

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:26 PM

All this assumes that the roads in Spaw's town can be made flood-proof. Well, how steep are the slopes? How impervious is the ground? How intense is the precipitation? Sometimes a system is simply overwhelmed by nature. Sometimes we could build a system that could handle the 50-year (let us say) flood, but it would cost jillions.

Maybe it's not stupidity, it's merely resignation.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:03 PM

it's not resignation, it's contractors and lobbyists who make informed bets that their projects, however ill-concieved, will not prove a disaster until they are safely gone.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:05 PM

In contracting, the rule is "Good, fast or cheap -- pick any two."

But there is always a shortfall of creative imagination, which is one of the sources of intelligence.

A

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:24 PM

Bill, a cynic is someone who derives cold comfort from feeling that he is right when he explains how rotten people and life basically are. He'd rather be right than be constructive.

Or to put it another way, "a cynic is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".

It is as obvious to me that a better material life, a more secure life, and a greater degree of personal security and equality encourages most people to develop higher awareness. I've seen it with my own eyes, over and over again in a variety of places. I've experienced it directly. Populations who live in desperate circumstances rarely get much of a chance to rise out of mere survival mode, and survival mode is "dog eat dog".

If you refuse to acknowledge that, you are just sheltering under the threadbare tent of cynicism.

It is oppression and gross inequality and greed from the top down that is keeping people in survival mode.

People are capable of virtual miracles when they are given inspired leadership and treated decently and allowed a chance to see the greater possibilities of life. Most people are essentially quite good in their nature, provided they get a chance to draw breath now and then.

I feel genuinely sorry that you would have such a low view of most people's capabilities and potential.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:44 PM

Geez, LH, I have a damned high view of the potential of people. And a damned low view of what they will actually achieve.

As for living in a floodplain -- I can speak to that in terms of the "bottom land" of the Upper Mississippi. It's because you might be flooded out this year, but you'll find next year that you have three feet of brand new, never-been-used, topsoil and your crops are wonderful. You make money hand over fist, so much that (if you do it right) you can survive the next big flood in good style.

In 1965, a levee broke and wiped out a farmer. Took out his house, his barn, and the purebred cattle herd he was trying to start. Wiped out his equipment. His credit rating, formerly at US $1.0 million, was flat zero. In Spring, 1966, his credit rating was US $2.5 million. New topsoil....

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 06:56 PM

LH..I said nothing about "capabilities and potential" my cynicism is directed at a practical view of human attitudes...and, I do not disagree in any way that "that a better material life, a more secure life, and a greater degree of personal security and equality encourages most people to develop higher awareness.".....but the operative word is encourages....it does not 'ensure'.

Are not those who DO the oppressing and exhibit the inequality & greed themselves human? What is it that makes those who have 'enough' want 'more' rather than offering to share?

I'd suppose that you & I, being conscientious fellows, if we were suddenly in charge, would strive to provide "the greatest good for the greatest number" as Utilitarians would suggest, but I have SEEN examples of those who have all they need work hard to get more than their share...in all areas of life. It is probably a survival trait encoded in our DNA, and requires an unusual attitude to rise above it. I simply claim that in order to have a chance of appealing to people's 'higher' natures, we will have to appeal to their fears first, and scare them out of their wits before we get population control and land and food enough to make 'philosophy' more than a game for such as you & I.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:08 PM

It helps to make people aware of existing dangers all right. A very good book along that line is "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight". I don't agree about "appealing to their fears" exactly, but I do agree about making them aware of danger.

As for "encourages, doesn't ensure"...you're right, but that's okay with me. I only expect encouragement. Encouragement is good enough. Encouragement means: to fill someone with courage. And that is enough, as far as I'm concerned. One doesn't have to change everyone to turn things around, one just has to change enough people to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 07:49 PM

It's expecting too much of the 'system', with too many demands on the 'system', with too few resources for the 'system' (mainly economic) causing a breakdown of the 'system'. A flood plain is just one issue in the big picture. Civic/state/provincial (or whatever) governments are dealing with many, many issues trying to resolve them all. Trying to satisfy all the peeples. What resources they have (mainly economic) are spread thin. What manpower resources that are availble are broken into little cells to deal with all the problems, communication becomes non-existant, helpless apathy evolves,resulting in spinning that basically goes nowhere.

Or ... maybe we all are stoopid.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:37 PM

No, it's that money is running the show. Things are being done for money instead of for some higher purpose. That leads to trouble, it leads to dishonesty and corruption, it cuts down every last tree and ruins every last watershed. And that is indeed monumentally stupid. It's a crime, in fact.

"I've seen thousands who could have overcome the darkness...
For the love of a lousy buck I watched them die." - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: number 6
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:46 PM

The infrastructure of the governments are breaking down due to lack of money (system failing) while the speculators and land investors are destroying the environment for greed of money.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:17 AM

Yep. There's no lack of talent, imagination, and ability out there...but...there is a purported "lack of money" to utilize it properly, so they say...

It's absolutely ridiculous. The money is being spent on things like weapons and casinos and professional sports. Unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bert
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:42 AM

Bobert, you said "We know what Einstein had to say about insanity: repeating behavior and expecting different results..."

Of course he didn't have to deal with Microsoft.

Engineers routinely design structures to survive a fifty year gale. Most modern structures have a prospective life of around thirty years.

Americans are too stupid to use traffic circles (roundabouts). They've been succesfully used for many decades in the UK.

Then there are those traffic lights designed to cause accidents. You arrive at the light and want to turn left, and there's this left filter sign that works SOMETIMES. So for nine times you arrive at the light and turn left when the light changes, the tenth time (or thereabouts) the filter sign doesn't come on so you start out as you have been conditioned to do by observation of the previous behaviour of the signal, anticipating a little of course. Now you're out in the intersection with oncoming traffic bearing down on you.

Then there's those filter signals which only work if you have a heavy car. it doesn't see a small car at all so your only choice is to run the signal, 'cos it's ALWAYS RED.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:31 AM

LMAO at Bert! Damn Bert, if you think that's bad, try waiting in one of those left turn lanes on a motorcycle!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:11 AM

So, how come you haven't shown up on the "Why are we so Good Lookin'" thread, Spaw?

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:19 AM

Americans are too stupid to use traffic circles (roundabouts). They've been succesfully used for many decades in the UK.

Actually they're not. Roundabouts simply are foriegn to most Americans because in the past we, unlike the UK, have had the space for "cloverleafs" and other land-intensive solutions. We haven't had the need to use other solutions.

There are roundabouts in use in Howard County, Maryland; Washington, DC; Indianapolis, Indiana; and many other places. We usually call them "circles."

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:25 AM

Yeah. I've seen the roundabouts in Washington, D.C.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:40 AM

Have you seen ALL the circles in DC, Little Hawk? Some are reasonable and simple (Chevy Chase Circle, Westmoreland Circle)...some are multi-lane, many-legged horrors that take months to learn...with inner and outer drives and traffic lights WITHIN the circle (Dupont Circle, Thomas Circle)...and some are just too much traffic trying to change lanes too fast. Very few are classic 'roundabouts'....none are 'fun', unless you think demolition derbies are fun.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:00 PM

When I moved into this area about ten years ago, there was a fairly straightforward crossroads in the town centre. Then they improved it by building a dividing wall in the middle of the road and introducing a one-way system. About every three years they improve it again, with months of disruption while it happens, of course.

The latest improvement plans have just been released for public comment - they take it all back to how it was when I arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:16 PM

Thank you, Dr. Malthus, for explaining the problem.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 12:36 PM

Central Place Theory

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 01:30 PM

Seems like most of the folks posting to this thread are male.
Bill D, another solution would be universal vasectomies: at about 11 yrs old all male children would get DNA tested. They would go to boarding schools where, besides academics and shop, they would learn intellectual and physical self-control techniques. At 18 they would graduate -- to college, vocational courses, full or part-time jobs -- to "half-way" houses; more in the mainstream of life, but not enough privacy to have sex. At 21 a vasectomy, and full liberation. Starting at about 28 they would be eligible for a vas. reversal (free), by signing an agreement attached to their DNA print that they would acknowledge and support any child they engendered. Then, if a man and woman pair up, they think permanently, they could choose a temporary female contraceptive while they try out their relationship. When they decide to have kids they can stop the contraceptive. So far, most female contraceptive products increase various health risks to women. Long-term use is dangerous to their life and well-being.

My aunt taught sign language to the deaf who had been dumped by their families at the State Hospital. These were folks who had been there a while and had maybe been made crazy -- well, she went in, one of a group of churchwomen who had chosen this road to do something good for the community. Once the patient had learned some sign language he/she could start seeing a doctor and getting counseling, always accompanied by their teacher/translator. These teachers were included in some of the patient-care meetings with board members and docs (mostly older white guys). Once, the continuing problem of patient pregnancies was being addressed and one board member jovially solicited ideas from my aunt for solutions. My aunt smiled politely (she always starts that way), and said: "Yes, sir, I do. We should start by castrating all the male staff members and doctors who have any contact with the female patients." She was not allowed to elaborate -- other topics were taken up. Strange?             Tw

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:05 PM

well, Tannywheeler, I would not rule out various 'adjustments' applied to men...but the truth is, it would be more complicated (chancey surgery), expensive and less efficacious. Women are the 'bottleneck',that is, one man can provide sperm to fertilize many, but a woman can only produce progeny at a certain rate. (Future space colonies will need MANY extra women, probably). To be effecient, contraception MUST be applied to women, and the techniques are already well understood....if it is also applied to men in some way, that could be a bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:20 AM

I certainly haven't seen all of 'em, Bill, but I remember one that was pretty nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:52 AM

It isn't so much that people are stupid as they just don't pay attention to their surroundings.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:33 PM

Amen to that, KimC!

Also, in DC there is such an overwhelming sense of self-importance that it provokes a "Screw you, git outa my way" attitude, especially towards driving. When I visit I try not to drive there -- my wife, who was born and raised there, does drive there and doesn't mind doing so.

The accepted rule for a stoplight in DC is "wait at least 15 seconds after the light changes to green, 'cause at least three cars are gonna run the red."

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:43 PM

Bloody-minded selfishness and acute impatience is the hallmark of North American drivers, it seems. It's also the hallmark of kindergarten-age children... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:52 PM

"...at least three cars are gonna run the red." you have it right, Rapaire! I have seen as many as 7 cars continue thru a red light in a double left-turn lane...that's 4 in one lane and 3 in another. I have, on 3 occasions, braked for a yellow light, only to have someone pull out and PASS me in order to run the red light.

The DC area has an unusual demography of drivers, including MANY immigrants whose habits were instilled in countries with 'different' attitudes...plus many bureaucrats of varied ilk whose sense of self-importance is exceeded only by the size of their cars. Add to this, a nasty street arrangement, with only a few main arteries and very few usable detours ("I don't want traffic in front of MY house") and a booming economy where cars and shopping are common......and you have the 2nd worse traffic in the country.

I am SO lucky to be retired and not have to deal with it on a daily basis.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:02 PM

Yeah. Driving in Washington D.C. is a bit like being in hell...I figure.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:11 PM

Why do people take such stupid chances while driving? Do they think they're in a freakin' tank? Have they never SEEN a serious accident?

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

They think it'll happen to "someone else".

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:21 PM

It likely will, while they--the "cause" of the accident--go haring off down the road.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

No such thing as an "accident" as people think of them...someone is always to blame...either by stupidity or negligence. Even the British Police now call them collisions.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:52 PM

I don't know about the rest of you, but fer me it's, like, a self-protection, eh? It's a sruvvival tactik.

If yer too smart, girls don't like ya. Who wants to be a flippin nerd or a bookworm?

If yer too smart, people expect you to "buckle down" and hold down a serious flippin' job! You will never see me do that. No sir.

If yer too smart, people won't buy the stories you make up, like...

"Oh, I was just borrowin' the snowmobile. Didn't you tell Don to tell me it was okay?"

"Oh, well, I didnt' realize it wasn't you, cos the lights were out, eh? I thought it WAS you. Dead straight, babe. I would NEVER cheat on you. Never. I don't even know her. I don't. Who the flip do ya figure she is anyway?"

"The beer? There's none left? Shit! Who would've drunk all the beer while you was downtown fer an hour?"

"I never got that ticket, officer. Honest. It musta been lost in the mail."

"It wasn't me."

"It was Don did it."

"Search me...NO, I didn't mean that literal, eh? You don't have to... Ohh...shit. ..... Jeez, look at that, eh? These are my brother Don's pants I borrowed, officer, and...look at that! My brother msut be usin' DRUGS! Look...I will help with his cownselling, eh? Just take my number down. And call me. Okay? Can I go now?"

BDiBR

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM

69

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:53 PM

Subject: RE: BS: So why ARE we so damn stupid???
From: GUEST,Blind River in Boind DRunk
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:55 PM

A postion I never refuse if I get the offer, eh?