The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???

Subject: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Joe Strummer's Conscience
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:48 AM

I read this Counterpunch interview with Mr. Bragg with alarm and concern.

Is this what we've been reduced to for our "protest singers" in both the US and Britain?

Are we really so blinded by a pathological hatred for "the enemy" (ie Tory, Conservative, Republican) that we can no longer find our way through the forest's trees to do what is right for our constituencies and the world, rather than what is most politically expedient in the moment?

Where did it all go so wrong?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

I still get this terible shudder of fear and depression at the thought of any possibilty of another Tory Government - it is probably irrational - by it is there - never the less.

The sad reality is that is what will be inflicted upon us - if the present Government are not returned. A choice between 'the Devil and the deep blue sea' it may be - but as the sea is blue and the Devil is red - I couldn't bear the thought of drowning in a sea of deep blue (the colour of the Tories).

So I may not back him - but (deep down) I hope the Devil wins.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:06 AM

So, you justify voting for pro-war candidates (effectively condemning more innocent people to the Blair/Bush slaughter), just to keep yourself safe from the Tories? Is that what we've come to? The people of Iraq be damned--we're keeping the Tories out and that's good enough for ME?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:09 AM

That was me there.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:23 AM

No one is rejoicing in this limited choice - but that is the sad reality - isn't it.

But the Tories (at the time) were in full support for the war - were they not? Voting them back in now - will change little in Iraq.

I am not justifying voting for pro-war candidates (I said I will back this Devil). I will be voting for the Respect Party locally and it will make no difference to the total outcome (even here in the seat with the smallest Labour majority.

Sometimes, whatever egg you choose - turns out to be a bad one. If these eggs were all that was on offer - you would have to choose to eat the slightly less bad eggs - or die of stavation.....You may also die from eating the bad eggs....life is not easy.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Jez
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

Michael Howard would have sent the troops to Iraq, on the grounds of regime change. He said so himself. And repeated it.

We must vote for whoever will beat the Tories. For God's sake, can you remember the last time they were in?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

When there is nothing but bad choices, there is always the option to not participate in sham elections. We don't have to vote for one devil or the other, do we. Not voting can be done as a matter of conscience, so long as one makes sure to make a very public statement in the process.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Piers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM

Hasn't Bragg always been reactionary?
Hasn't parliamentary democracy always been nothing more than a choice (if you can call it that) between evils?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:41 AM

If you don't vote - you are still going to end-up with a Labour or Tory Govenment.

There may be some hope that a Labour one may get better than they are currently - or be forced to. There is the rock-bottom certainty that a Tory one will only get worse. And the country with it.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM

Yes, but if many people don't vote as a form of protest, a revolutionary movement might be born to fight the fascists.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

i am sick of listening you idealistic utopian middle class stoned hippies..

you are a liability..


and a danger to the future well being of all
who lack the good fortune
of your privilaged cossetted upbringing and 'education'



trusting you with the hard fought for 'real world'
responsibility to vote..

is like trusting my family and communities future

to the whims of a playgroup of 3 year old toddlers who know and aspire for nothing else
than to whine for ice creams and candy floss
and to play forever
with brightly coloured beach balls in a fairy land bouncy castle..

.. and btw.. was'nt joe strummer ultimately just another drug addled public school 'revolutionary'pop star

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:51 AM

It wasn't so long ago Billy contributed this song to the "Peace Not War" effort:

THE PRICE OF OIL
Written and performed by Billy Bragg
Produced by Billy Bragg & Simon Edwards
(previously unreleased)
© 2002 Billy Bragg

voices on the radio
tell us that we're going to war
those brave men and women in uniform
they want to know what they're fighting for
the generals want to hear the end game
the allies won't approve the plan
but the oil men in the white house
they just don't give a damn

it's all about the price of oil
it's all about the price of oil
don't give me no shit
about blood, sweat, tears and toil
it's all about the price of oil
now I ain't no fan of Saddam Hussein
oh, please don't get me wrong
if it's freeing the Iraqi people you're after
then why have we waited so long
why didn't we sort this out last time
was he less evil than he is now
the stock market holds the answer
to why him, why here, why now

Saddam killed his own people
just like general Pinochet
and once upon a time both these evil men
were supported by the U.S.A.
and whisper it, even Bin Laden
once drank from America's cup
just like that election down in Florida
this shit doesn't all add up
it's all about the price of oil
'cause it's all about the price of oil
don't give me no shit
about blood, sweat, tears and toil
it's all about the price of oil
_______________________________

What happened Billy? Why the rage against the wars of the American empire, but silence about the wars of the British?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

ps.. yes of course i'll be voting strategically for my local ineffectual tosser liberal candidate...


to help maintain his very narrow margin of lead
which keeps the real evil of the vampiristic parasite tories out..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Michael Howard
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:52 AM

I couldn't agree more.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:01 AM

But are the Tories truly the bogeyman when New Labour does their dirty work for them?

I think the system is fucked, and so are we if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that supporting a lesser evil/forward not back mentality is the morally right thing to do. It isn't, of course. It just makes us feel better about holding our noses while we sell our souls to vote "tactically" for ourselves, while damning the rest of the world to being bombed back to the stone age. And make no mistake about it--the rest of the world is damned in their relations with the likes of us now, aren't they?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM

.. and as much as me and my mates have always liked and respected Billy Bragg

[ and for that matter Joe Strummer ]

Billy Bragg is only just another middle aged middle class dad
who's eared enough ££££ out of the music industry to move his family to a nice house by the seaside..


.. he's not beyond criticism or reproach..



but in this instance his views on strategic voting
are as timely and appropriate
as his involvement in red wedge
which at least attempted to ger young people to consider voting
as their right to be used,/I> positively responsably

to help improve living and working conditions for all
who's lives were wreckedby the wicked economics of Thatchers tories..

[and probably still will be for at least a few more decades while labour tries to restabilise our economy and repair the ravages of the tories deeply rooted socio economic legacy]..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Gordon Brown
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:10 AM

I think the system is fucked, and so are we if we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that supporting a lesser evil/forward not back mentality is the morally right thing to do

The only choice - other than supporting a lesser evil this time - is watching whilst those supporting a greater evil - vote it in.

I know this because - my good friend Tony - told me.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:20 AM

Not very punk, anti-folk, or revolutionary of you though Gordon.

"Billy Bragg is only just another middle aged middle class dad
who's eared enough ££££ out of the music industry to move his family to a nice house by the seaside..

.. he's not beyond criticism or reproach.."

So maybe if he showed a little less concern for Dorset dads being able to buy more local produce at the market and having Oona round for tea, and a little more concern for Baghdad mums picking schrapnel out of their malnourished children's backs, he might come off as less a hollow man.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:23 AM

ok alright then..

if you clever moral highground hogging revolutionary peace 'n' love hippy idealists

were ever to make such a hugely impressive public protest
by your mass refusual to vote and engage in the nasty dirty realm
of real life politics..

so impressive that it influences the rest of the voting public to follow your holy example and also abstain from the electoial process..

ok so just 'imagine... theres no voting..'


so no politicians get elected...


so great..
errr but what happens next..

the gates open to a utopian golden age for Great Britain..

every citizen suddenly becomes enpowered and 'comes together'
in a nationwide self determining singing and dancing and hugging
tribe of oneness and peacefull harmonious loving co-existence..??????


..and who exactly will maintain the running of the nations
infra structureand services

while you lot are all out in the sun making daisy chains
and smoking ganja..???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:29 AM

I think you might just be drowning in your stereotyping proclivities there, sohw. Yer truly a man/woman of limited imagination and tremendous fear of the untried tactic. Thanks for sharing.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:33 AM

ok then, GUEST,JSC you big smarty pants...

and the nature and projected results of that "untried tactic"

being...???????

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:44 AM

Got a crystal ball that gives our future outcome under the next New Labour government down yer trousers do you?

Didn't think so. You demand we all vote, and vote for complacency and a claim to certainty about the future outcome under another Blair government, when there is no such thing. Not voting no more puts us and the world in danger than voting does.

In fact, I believe much better arguments can be made that voting for pro-war Blairites actually WILL put us all in graver danger than not voting for them will.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:48 AM

stop provaricating GUEST,JSC ..

what exactly is your 'untried tactic' intended to acheive..???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of hippy wankers..
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 10:54 AM

.. ok i just been reading the 'counterpunch' article..

written by;

"Omar Waraich is an undergraduate at SOAS, University of London. He can be reached at [e-mail]"

well.. seems to me despite Omars attempt to discredit Billy Bragg..


Mr Bragg comes over as a well considered and experienced mature veteran of our generations struggle against the evil of the tories..


..where as omar just sounds like a snide whining single issue anti war bleating
little baby adolescent undergraduate..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:06 AM

By starting a movement to not vote in sham elections, we might be able to get people to change their stuck mindsets and shift the political paradigm beyond the locked-in-mortal-combat nihilism of Labour/Lib Dem vs Torie/Conservative/BNP thinking.

You got any better ideas on how to end the stalemate and start moving Britain and the world in the right direction? Besides this abomination of a voting appeasement strategy, that is?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

yes.. all very well GUEST,JSC..


but in such a highly imaginary scenario where the mass electorate

refuse to vote..


just what exactly is supposed to happen afterwards ..?????


errr.. stop acting like a politician GUEST,Joe Strummer's Conscience

and please just indulge us with a sensible straight answer..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Tam the man
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:24 AM

He's just doing what the Labour party has done for years sold out to the Tories.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM

But back to the music and the musician here. I never intended this thread to be yet another drawn out battle with the Blair camp.

JS himself backed the war in Afghanistan (perhaps you missed that ironic bit my user name), and jumped on the jingoist bandwagon before his death.

I'm just asking why it seems all these purportedly 'left' leaning rebel rock musicians like Bragg (and Springsteen in the States) have chosen to be shills for mainstream politicians during election years.

Surely rock celebrity is just as corrupting an influence as the millenia old aphrodisiac, political power? Both rock stardom and political stardom require huge egos. We seem to be free floating through this anxiety-prone era--voyeurist witnesses to the marriage of mainstream politician to mainstream rock star. In the process, we seem to have fallen prey to the worst sort of banal celebrity worship, the morphing of our progressive values into the "pragmatic" values and belief systems of said politico-rock stars, whose altars we worshipped at in our youth.

The middle age folk and blues scene is just as guilty of this, IMO, as the middle age rebel rock/punk scene. Thing is, we aren't bringing the next generation with us--they are busy running the other way--away from us and our history.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:40 AM

I never said the majority would refuse to vote. We just need a highly visible, politically radicalized vanguard movement to not vote, and explain in no uncertain terms to the Great Greying Middle Class (stand for nothing, take anything you can get for yourself) why we won't be voting with them.

How can that tactic be any bleedin' worse than the "strategic" appeasement tactic being peddled to us by Mr. Bragg?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,now sick of any irritating wankers
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:41 AM

perhaps we missed the oh so 'ironic bit in your "user" name'

because you are so far up you own smug self satified clever arse !!!


what you doing here..

practicing writing imaginary hip journalism articles for the NME..!!??

and you have the 'cheek' to criticsize other folks huge egos..


ps i never have liked Blair's new labour..

theres nothing blair or camp about me and my old lefty mates pal..


but its still better for a possibility for a progressive future for our UK
to have conservative lite new labour than full blown evil tories
ever back in power..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of all wankers[except me]
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 11:50 AM

meant to write "conservative new labour atm for the time being


[huh.. guessed you perhaps you missed that ironic bit using the
cheap 'camp'gag to reference the gruff manly machismo of the old style
working class labour party..]

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:23 PM

The attempt by the Howard faction within the Tory Party to capitalise on racism and prejudice against Gypsies, and refugees and "economic migrants" indicate that letting the Tories back in would be opening the door to a nightmare.

It'd undermine the hope that the Tories could rehabilate themselves, and turn into a decent party representing decent people, with whom I may disagree politically but amicably enough.

For people in marginal Labour seats which could go Tory, there's a case for holding your nose and voting Labour, even when it might be for a loyal Blairite. But for any former Labour voter in the 58 Tory seats where the Lib Dem is the challenger, there is an opportunity to send Tony a message, and at the same time dish any Tory hopes of winning a majority in the Commons.

And get rid of Michael Howard from the House of Commons as well, for a start, since he's one of those Tories depending on Labour voters sticking with Labour, if he's to have a chance to get re-elected.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 12:50 PM

But Labour has been quietly and politely holding the multi-culti door closed so the "refugees" and immigrants of color couldn't come into the country or move into a middle class neighborhood anyway. At least the Tories are honest about locking them out, aren't they? Labour already has locked them out, but lies to us about it, using their PC multi-culti rhetoric.

This is a significant difference?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

"But Labour has been quietly and politely holding the multi-culti door closed so the "refugees" and immigrants of color couldn't come into the country or move into a middle class neighborhood anyway."


do they really...??


is that true then.. ??

hmmm....

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:27 PM

It's May 5th. I've got one vote. If I don't use it I cant complain. Women and men have died for it.
All political choices are the better of evils. Billy's right, he's grown up. Anything slightly to the Left is better than the Tories.
It's not the labour Party I'd like. I think the Lib Dems have the best policies and I'll be voting for them in my constituency because they already hold it. Tories are second and labour has no chance.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 07:50 PM

Let's all go down the fiddler. Maybe red Ken will introduce Billy to the awaiting crowd. Yep there's Joe at the bar, looking cool. Say hello boys and girls to the red wedge tour. ZZZZZZZZ and then I woke up. But in the 80's it was real. Anyone else there?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Terry K
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:55 AM

But surely, if everyone is voting AGAINST someone, the result will be just the same as if everyone was voting FOR someone. The vote is all about trying to end up with what you want - or avoiding what you don't want, isn't it?

A bloke in the pub (let's say) said to me that Blair bangs on about a "multicultural society" but that immigrants don't come here to join a multicultural society. They come here to live in Britain first and foremost, and in their own closed communities if they can.

This bloke went on to say that though, for example, Alperton is a multicultural society, it's made up entirely from the rich mixture of cultures drawn from the Indian sub-Continent.

Me, I don't really have a view, but I do feel I will have to make a protest vote against the lying bastard Blair and that fucking missus of his.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 May 05 - 06:47 AM

Islands and Oasis

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 08:11 AM

Lads, we're in the music section discussing Billy Bragg, not the BS section discussing how we should vote, right?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,the political troubador
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:07 AM

"Lads, we're in the music section discussing Billy Bragg, not the BS section discussing how we should vote, right?"

errrrrrrmmm.. well .. yes.. and... no...



I'm sure this is what Mr Bragg would want us to be doing as a proper response to his
'musical' art....

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:28 AM

Getting back to the anti-war Bragg song I posted above--I don't know how one reconciles writing a song like that, taking political action to oppose the war, and then campaigning for those who support the war.

Boggles me mind, because I really thought Bragg, of all people, had more personal integrity than that. I just cannot square the actions of the man who was an ardent and passionate opponent of the war, with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,cheers BILLY, I owe you one
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:28 AM

"Two-for-one offer for Lib Dem voters in Dorset"

http://www.billybragg.co.uk/news/news_story.php?id=264

" Much is at stake at this election. Anger with the Labour government over the Iraq war could result in Michael Howard running the country, says Billy.

Labour could lose the election.

Others call for a different outcome in which Labour get a 'bloody nose' winning with a vastly reduced majority. The trouble with that scenario is that most of the seats Labour loses will be to the Tories, creating a resurgent Conservative Party which believes that it will be further rewarded if it continues to stir up fear and prejudice.

There is, however, a third outcome, in which the centre of gravity in British politics is shifted decisively to the left.

If tactical voting causes the Tories to lose seats to the Lib Dems, then the Conservative Party would go into a tail-spin. The Lib Dems could emerge from this election with enough momentum to become the official opposition, forcing a Labour administration to tack to left of centre in order to deal with the perceived threat. The Lib Dems have already been able to influence Labour policy in this manner in the Scottish Parliament.

For this to happen, however, it is crucial that Lib Dem supporters vote in unison with disillusioned Labour supporters as a progressive bloc – voting tactically to ensure that the Tories do not pick up any seats – voting together for left of centre government. "

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of mind boggled wankers
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:35 AM

boggles your mind does..!!???


then loosen the grip of severe tunnel vision on that poor little mind of yours..


and grow up


and realise the complexity and apparent contradictions of reality..



".. with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers.



of course that's not what he is supporting
you naieve mind boggled irritating little twat.."




ooohh .. that feels better...


now to go swat some flies..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:39 AM

I fearlessly predict Billy Bragg's fortune telling about the upcoming election will be just as way off as Bruce Springsteen's was about John Kerry and the Democrats in the US election...

"For this to happen, however, it is crucial that Lib Dem supporters vote in unison with disillusioned Labour supporters as a progressive bloc – voting tactically to ensure that the Tories do not pick up any seats – voting together for left of centre government."

Talk about unrealistic!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:39 AM

oops need to correct typing error..



".. with the man campaigning on behalf of the war mongerers."




of course that's not what he is supporting
you naieve mind boggled irritating little twat..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of mind boggled wankers
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:42 AM

so GUEST,JSC

how much are the Tories paying you to persuade
leftist inclined citizens not to vote.. ???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:55 AM

Trotting out that lame old horse yet again? You must be very afraid of what it is I'm saying.

Progressives in Britain can look to how effective the "vote strategically" tactic was in the last US election. The arguments for blindly supporting Labour and Lib Dems where it is "safe" to vote for them, is the exact same tactic taken by the right wing of the Democratic party in the US last year. Substitute "John Kerry" for "Tony Blair", "Democratic Party" for "Labour Party", and "Lib Dems" for "Ralph Nader" and/or "grassroots progressive Democrats" and you've got a perfect match.

Something must change, because voting for the old war horses will change absolutely nothing. Whether you claim to be voting for Labour or against the Tories, the outcome is the same--same old shit.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 May 05 - 09:59 AM

Billy Bragg's tactical voting may be justified but playing for Oona King can not. As far as the Lib Lab pact in Scotland is concerned, we have Liberals in power (Second Minister and other posts) although they came third in the election. If the Tories had a similar result in the UK election as Labour had in Scotland, we could see the Liberals hand in hand with the Tories in Westminster and hand in hand with Labour in Scotland! They have just voted to make possible top up fees to be introduced in Scotland .. but Billy Bragg is going to vote for them. I remember seeing him on Question Time a while ago. The question of Scottish Devolution was raised and Billy Bragg said '.. if they want it we should give them it'. Note the WE.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:01 AM

"I fearlessly predict Billy Bragg's fortune telling about the upcoming election will be just as way off as Bruce Springsteen's was about John Kerry and the Democrats in the US election..."

well then you fearlessly mind boggled 5th columnist scab twat..


..at least Billy Bragg and the left of centre unofficial anti-tory
strategic voting alliance
are tying to acheive something positive and constuctive
and potentially progressive
for UK society..

... and sorry to need to ask the question again..



but what exactly are your plans for a realisable progresive future
for our families, friends , communities , work conditions, etc.. ???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of being sick of...
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:09 AM

"Trotting out that lame old horse yet again? You must be very afraid of what it is I'm saying."


nope.. just irritated... and dismayed..

and worried sick fools like you will stick me with a Tory MP
for the forseeable future



.. BTW GUEST,JSC why do you keep banging on about Bruce and the US election

[and if I remember correctly, spell neighbourhood in a suspiciously
American way... hmmmmmmmmmm...]
???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:25 AM

Because I'm American?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 10:30 AM

Thanks Jim, for seconding my disgust over Bragg's support for Oona King. As I said, I just can't square his support of her with his previously stated political positions.

Which is why I asked if he had sold out--supporting King is pretty difficult to justify as anything other than just that.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:22 AM

This one also seems appropriate for the times:

Children of the revolution
Kirsty MacColl

Children of the revolution coming out to play
Bombers ripped the night apart and blew the school away
Some live on the south side and they overlook the water
Some live on the north side and they're looking at the border
And those children of the revolution see the soldiers come
Smiling at the widows as they take away the sons
Children of the revolution shot down with a brand new gun
They're dropping down like flies and in their eyes
The images of war are in their eyes
They've seen it all before and know your lies
Won't keep their bellies full
In love and war there are no rules

Children of the revolution getting off the boat
To face the ignorance and prejudice that keep this land afloat
Children of the revolution make a brand new start
Running through the rubble of a thousand broken hearts and in their eyes
All promises are broken in their eyes
The words that can't be spoken and your lies
Don't keep their bellies full
In love and war there are no rules
But in their eyes
Murder comes by sea and from the skies
It's shiny and it's quick to take their lives
And it's cruel in love and war there are no rules

Children of the revolution coming out to play
Someone sells a gun and someone blows them all away
Children of the revolution sold out by the banks
Who swap the green upon the dollars for the green upon the tanks
Children of the revolution shot down by a brand new gun

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:27 AM

GUEST,JSC


"As I said, I just can't square his support of her with his previously stated political positions."


..and thats your problem


trying to understand the 'consistency' of other peoples
complicated dynamic evolving motivations, activism, and statements
through the miasma of your own severly restricting moral principles..


..but what 'disgusts' me
about people like you
is your selfish insistence on parading yourslf to be 'right'
at the cost of your abnegation of political responsibility
for our wider community..

and apparent total disregard for the potentialy tory promoting consequences
of your hell bent wish to convince other leftist citizens
to not use their vote against the tories..

sad..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:31 AM

There is a hell of a lot more to political and community responsibility than hating the Tories.

Too bad you are so blinded by your hatred you can't see your way out of hate to a place that transcends party loyalties. It's called doing what your conscience dictates...like standing up for what you believe in, instead of voting against what you hate and fear.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of..
Date: 01 May 05 - 11:46 AM

oh yes.. and what is that going to acheive after May the 5th
if the tories get back in..!!!???


yes damn right I hate the tories..

hatred born from personal and community experience of their evil
ideologies and economics..

..not too keen on moralistically self indulgent people like you either

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:01 PM

.. and for what its worth..

its a hatred that fuels an anger that politicizes for positive action..

.. not a hatred blind to other better options and strategies..


if and when we can make them possible and realisable..


certainly not blind adherence to paralysing inappropriate moralistic
desertion
from the real political power struggle
that we're all [like it or not] neck deep in shit in..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:18 PM

btw.. please explain why oona King is such a bad person..

and why your 'disgust' for a few individuals in new labour


can justify your desire to replace a moderately 'progressive' Govt..


..and consequently inflict a Tory prime minister on all of us

in UK..??


thanks..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:24 PM

I'd like to dedicate this one to you, sick of, and all the people like you who are anti-warriors...except at election time.

NO MORE WAR!

"The socialist songbook"

No more shall we fight their battles,
No more shall we go to war,
O,let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
We will wage their wars no more.
NO MORE WAR!

No more shall we make munitions,
No more guns and poison gas;
O,let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
No more for the working class.
NO MORE WAR!

No more shall we serve as targets,
No more slay our fellow men.
0, let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
We'll not go to war again.
NO MORE WAR!


No more shall we shout their slogans,
No more: now that we're awake.
O, let the high and mighty slaughter
one another.
Let them taste the hell they make.
NO MORE WAR!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:31 PM

what is this .. sunday afternoon kareoke down the student union bar..


please just answer some effin questions JSC...!!!!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:33 PM

I don't believe there is any danger of the Tories winning, or of a Tory PM any time soon, so that bogeyman card won't play.

Also, did I mention that voting against what you hate and fear repeatedly while achieving the same result is rather counter-intuitve?

And the Blair government progressive? Not even moderately. Conservative lite, yes.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 12:44 PM

Another one for the sing-along (this IS a music thread after all)

GUY FAWKES' TABLE
Attila the Stockbroker

I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
The day Parliament voted for war
Though the mass of the people oppose it
And it flouts international law
I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
While American thugs flaunt their power
Egged on by a sad little muppet
And his craven and cowardly shower.

Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead
And the time for a new one is nigh
Will the last person Left please turn out the lights?
New Labour, we're saying goodbye.

They won't be caught up in the carnage
They'll be pontificating right here
Their kids won't be Iraqi conscripts
Moved down while they're shitting with fear
No thought for the Kurds in the north zone
When the Turks come to do as they will
For they are American allies
And they'll come with a licence to kill.....

Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead
And the time for a new one is nigh
Will the last person Left please turn out the lights?
New Labour, we're saying goodbye.

I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
As Bush and his muppet connive
And I'm filled with unspeakable anger
And I'm thinking of 1605
One message, Dishonourable Members
Who endorsed an illegal attack -
No, I don't want to bomb you like Guy did
But I'd love to send you to Iraq.

Aneurin Bevan, your party is dead
And the time for a new one is nigh
Will the last person Left please turn out the lights?
New Labour, we're saying goodbye.

We need a new socialist party -
But not the Judean People's Front
Not another small sect, but a movement
With the power to change and confront
We need an electoral system
Which gives every voter a voice
'Cos we're fed up with voting for traitors
And we have the right to a choice!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:24 PM

The Times They Are A-Changin

Come gather round people wherever you advertise
And admit that the sixties sells Chryslers and fries
And accept it that money don't talk, it just lies
If your bottom line is worth savin
Then you better start skimmin all the anthems we've known
For the stocks, they are exchangin

Hokey Pokey

You take the issues out, you put emotions in
You take yourself out of the loop
And you doctor up a spin
You do some mumbo-jumbo and you turn your views around
That's what it's all about

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of .........
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:36 PM

"I don't believe there is any danger of the Tories winning, or of a Tory PM any time soon, so that bogeyman card won't play."

me neither.. fingers crossed


however, where i live, the local Lib MP is only a handfull of votes away
from being displaced by a TORY !!!

and labour wil probably never stand a chance of being elected..


so in my local constituency,
the influence of people with misguided ideas like yours
makes me very worried..

.. put bluntly [metaphorically speaking of course..]

if 'you' cause me to be inflicted by life under a tory MP..
i might just probably cause you a bloody nose and bruised bollocks
if we ever meet in person afterwards...


so I WILL vote strategically against the tories..
not because i have any great love for blairs cowardly new labour
or ginger bloated blokes ineffectual liberals


BTW.. good song..
i've gigged with attilla.. he's a good pal of a mate of mine..


.. but can we please just concentrate in the short term on crushing the Tory party..

..then over the next decade [or much more]
we can fight to reclaim a better leftist 'party'
from the best of whats left..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:41 PM

Sorry, but since I'm not a resident of yer local district, I don't think I'll be responsible for a Tory being elected there.

Pretzel logic, that.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,sick of pedantic cleverclogs
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:47 PM

people like 'you'..

you big silly revolutionary 'you'..

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 05 - 01:51 PM

and please answer why you dont like oona king..!!!!????

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Frankham
Date: 01 May 05 - 02:53 PM

I couldn't find the article. I saw another one that really made me upset on the same blog. Howard Dean says "we can't get out now." and that he hopes that Bush is successful in his mission over there. What!!!!?

Re Bragg: I always had a reservation about him since Mermaid Avenue.
I don't think Woody would have liked where Bragg is going and I'm not sure he would have liked what Bragg did to his tunes. Just an opinion by someone who knew Woody.

Frank

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 02 May 05 - 05:10 AM

I've just looked at this thread and another one with the same number of posts, why is this one nearly all GUEST posts and not members ?

eric

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 May 05 - 06:13 AM

Some people are frightened to associate themselves with and opinion, Eric.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,ray
Date: 02 May 05 - 06:41 AM

Sorry - not a member...yet. Just droppoed in on this thread. What is the particular problem with oona King? Just how many young black jewish women are there out there who have also made it to be an MP? How progressive is it to target her for some special vilification?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 May 05 - 07:27 AM

The thread is about Billy Bragg who is against the war in Irag but recently openly supported Oona King who is for the war. No special attack on Ms King except for her political beliefs

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,JSC
Date: 02 May 05 - 08:47 AM

That's correct Jim. And I would add, just because she is black and Jewish doesn't make her progressive or even liberal (she isn't, IMO), so why would progressives support her? Because she is black, Jewish, and female? I don't think so!

As to "just guests" do you really want to go there gents? Many long time contributors here have always been "just guests" and claiming that they are guests because they don't want to stand by their opinions is ridiculous. People have many reasons for not taking cookies from internet chat forums, one very good one being the security of their computers. I'm also not such an egomaniac that I think my opinion is such hot shit that everyone needs to know it's mine.

Others mileage may vary, of course.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Ramblingsid
Date: 02 May 05 - 04:01 PM

To me the nub of this argument is very simple.

I think that those that wish to occupy the moral high ground should stop and consider that, while they may be prosperous enough to be able to contemplate another tory government and all its cuts in public services, there are many in this country who are not and for whom the Tories winning the election on Thusday would be a personal disaster.

I believe that when making their decision the electorate are entitled to consider the future of health education sure start etc etc are the issues of primary importance to us.

Mistakes may or may not have been made by the Labour Government post 9/11 - history will tell. In the meantime I am more than happy to support a government whose values and policies are intended to be for the benefit of the many and the fight against a tory philosophy that is based upon privelige for the few.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Terry K
Date: 03 May 05 - 03:45 AM

Sid, you're rambling again. You can't possibly support the current regime based on traditional stereotypes because they simply do not fit the traditional Labour stereotype. Support them by all means, but please base your support on something material.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 May 05 - 10:23 AM

The more I read here, the more I think I'll be voting Monster Raving Loony Party.... after all, their policies have formerly included all day opening for pubs and passports for pets - both policies that were approved and credit taken by other parties.....

LTS

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 05 - 11:03 AM

As well as building a huge dome over Britain to keep out the rain, whats next the abolishen of slavery???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: shepherdlass
Date: 03 May 05 - 01:37 PM

The sad thing is that if Billy votes New Labour he won't be keeping out the Tories. New Labour is fundamentally Thatcherism with a few social justice bells and whistles to keep their once-core supporters quiet. Haven't noticed the restoration of that many REAL benefits for the many at the expense of the few: even the lovely Gordon's much-quoted Child Benefit increase didn't benefit parents on Income Support (the means testers just take it off at the other end).

Sorry, this is turning back into a BS thread, but I worry that the thought of keeping a group of people from power because they bear a certain name means that we vote in people with near identical principles and a name we like more.

Yours
An ex-Labour stalwart

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:19 AM

Bragg is a sell-out charlatan. Not to mention a very poor artist, if that is the right word. Why have folk lovers entertained thig guy for so long?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,defender of the Bragg
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 07:07 AM

Bragg is only human,
he's got every right to be as much a two faced misguided cunt
as the rest of us.


..as for the quality of his artistry,

are you any better and getting as much work & money as he is for it ?




..thought not!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:35 AM

are you any better and getting as much work & money as he is for it ?

And there speaks the new capitalist face of Billy Bragg! Socialist Front Unite My Arse.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,defender of the bragg
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:45 AM

He is ex army you freak and a talented singer, a better man than you will ever be!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 08:46 AM

Erm...ex army, oh yes...his parents paid £175.00 for him to leave after ONE MONTH! Oh yes, he's a hero.

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 10:45 AM

Well said, Shepherdlass, New-Labour = New-Tory.

Our fundamental problem is that we do NOT live in a democracy. A democracy is where your vote counts. (See a dictionary).

Our constituency system is set up to stifle any and all minor opinions and skews the result so much that only 2 parties have a chance of winning. And when those 2 parties are virtually indistinguishable......what's the point?

And then they wonder why young people don't vote!

Emigrate, I say....but where to....they're just as bad....oh b*gger!

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST,Billy Braggs an alright bloke mate, innit !
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 11:35 AM

oi guest mate


you seem to be more concerned about Billy Bragg
than is normal or healthy..

you a disillusioned fan..?

was he to busy to sign your autograph book last time you saw him ?

or are you a deranged stalker with a court order
out on you to keep a safe distance from him ??

or what ???

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 12:22 PM

Well anyone who doesn't like Bragg MUST by default be a stalker, dissulsioned fan...

bragg is crap. i mean, c'mon, listen to his 'music' he is utter crap and i don't liek folkies who persist on putting this man on a pedastal of folk, when frankly, there are far better artists down my local.

He is a charlatan. Oh but i must not forget he is a hero, ex army and all, you know, one month and £175 and he was out of there. perhaps his fellow squaddies thought less of his music than he thought of them?

Subject: RE: The Selling Out of Billy Bragg???
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 08 Mar 06 - 06:25 PM

Whey ye bugga! Aah thowt aah wez the ownly porson in the country what cudden't stand the two-faced little oik

Aah knaa loads of folkies and others whe've spent years and years in the armed forces and doon mines and in shipyards workin' damned hard te mek a livin' while him and his like prattle on aboot 'the workin' man'

Billy Bragg waddent knaa a workin' man if he kicked his talentless skinny arse.

And..... Aah divvent knaa whe thinks that Bragg is a 'FOLK' legend -Carthy is a legend, Swarbrick is a legend, Scan Tester, Billie Pigg, THEY wez legends!!! Billie Bragg?? Legend? My arse! He lives in a mansion on a cliff-top in Dorset

And.....While we're on the subject! Has anybody heard a word of apology from Pete Coe about that piece of tat "We'll Have A May-Day Then" Aye pal!! Aall the may-days since 1997 are blighted - The culture secretary who thinks England dizzent have a culture - The Labour government who have ruined entertainment for the 'folk of this country at every turn,

AND.... Tessa Bloody Jowell (Aye THAT culture secretary) got away with it AGAIN!!! They've aal got their fingers in a pot somewhere

And..... And.... ....and John Prescott - Say nee mair!!