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Origins: Mattie Groves - What year?

DigiTrad:
FATTY GROVES
LORD BANNER
MATTIE GROVES


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pavane 11 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM
GUEST,Big Vern 12 Apr 08 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Margaret 12 Apr 08 - 09:25 PM
GUEST 13 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,Big Vern 13 Apr 08 - 06:56 AM
pavane 13 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM
Rusty Dobro 13 Apr 08 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Big Vern 13 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Big Vern 13 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,PMB 14 Apr 08 - 03:29 AM
pavane 14 Apr 08 - 05:59 AM
pavane 14 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM
Uncle_DaveO 14 Apr 08 - 05:30 PM
Rusty Dobro 15 Apr 08 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,Big Vern 15 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM
GUEST,PMB 16 Apr 08 - 04:10 AM
GUEST 17 Apr 08 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,HughM 18 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,HughM 18 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,HughM 18 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM
pavane 18 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 08 - 09:51 PM
pavane 21 Nov 08 - 02:37 AM
GUEST 21 Nov 08 - 04:50 PM
Goose Gander 21 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM
GUEST 21 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM
GUEST 21 Nov 08 - 05:45 PM
Joe Offer 21 Feb 15 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,mpainter 01 Sep 15 - 05:19 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Sep 15 - 07:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: pavane
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 05:29 AM

Other forms of the name which occur are:

(Maestries) Musgraeffe, said to have been Sir John Musgrave's wife, c1502, and Agnes Musgraif, c1511

See "The Poems of William Dunbar"

Thomas Musgray or Musgra was an Englishman "captane of Beruik (Berwick)" who came with a "greit armye"
(The Buik of the Croniclis of Scotland)

There are many other similar references in the 1500's


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Apr 08 - 10:57 PM

Warning: Thread drift!

Back in '05, Maryrrf commented that

I really enjoy the song - always have and while I'm singing it or listening to it I picture the characters and the scene in my mind.

This reminds me of a comment I once heard Peggy Seeger say, when someone asked her if--and why--she often sang ballads with her eyes closed.

"Because I want to watch the movie!"

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,Big Vern
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 11:32 AM

Malcolm - I note what you say about the Gosson text - but as to early modern England not being a Calvinist country - i'm afraid that almost all historians of the early modern period would disagree with you (eg Collinson, Lake, Tyacke, Morrill, etc). The Elizabethan and Jacobean Church of England was solidly Calvinist in its doctrine and it was not until Charles I' support for William Laud that anti Calvinist elements began to dominate the Church of England. Laud paid the ultimate price for that in 1645. Further, the 'official' Cromwellian church was a blend of Presbyterian, particular baptist and congregationalist elements - all of whom Calvinists.   

Catholics were not just frowned upon - despite making up 2-3% of the population of England, they were actively oppressed, their estates seized and they were forced to worship underground. To talk openly of Catholic doctrine would inspire arrest and probably a riot and a pogrom. Most people had not ever met a Catholic but deeply feared fear them.

As to saying that references to 'our lady' 'clearly was not considered odd or inappropriate at that time' - do you have evidence?, I am a historian of the era and on my reading of this period it very much was inappropriate and odd to mention 'our Lady' - the Civil War was fought in part over the fear of popery, a fear dragged up by Charles I recruiting Irish soldiers into his Army. The Solemn League and Covenant of 1643 had declared that all who took it would 'endeavour the extirpation of Popery' from England, Scotland and Ireland - and this had been done, as all know, with much military vigour.

I have read hundreds of tracts and manuscripts from this period and references to 'Our Lady' are very rare. So therefore, the references to the 'preist was at private masse' in a public context indicates we are dealing with either pre-reformation England or Ireland, not England or Scotland from the 1560s onwards and certainly not England in the first half of the seventeenth century. In 1658 Mass had not been said in England or Scotland (except behind closed doors and with defiant trepidation) for just under 100 years.

I have had a look at the 1658 source text. The text is a book called Wit Restored (Wing Reference M1719) - the text is not an innocent broadside (if such a thing exists) but a Royalist wit book compiled by Sir John Mennes (1599-1671) a royalist vice admiral during the Civil War and and James Smith (1605-1667) a clergyman who whilst conforming to the church system of the Parliamentarian period, spent most of his time drinking in taverns, writing smutty poems and was imprisoned for debt.   

Wit Restored is a compilation of anti-Parliamentarian verse alongside smutty burlesque songs composed by Mennes and Smith, as well as numerous ballads. Little Musgrave (starts p.174) is called 'the old ballad of little Musgrave'. I would venture that it was a song Smith or Mennish had picked up from taverns on their travels and included it in their book because it was a scandalous.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,Margaret
Date: 12 Apr 08 - 09:25 PM

Malcolm - thanks for checking my reference from Bronson. It has stuck in my mind since I read it.

Big Vern and others - the Catholic references could be an attempt to make the ballad sound old. If I wrote a ballad about a bank robbery and had the robbers ride off on horses I would at least be implying that the events of my ballad had happened over a century ago, if at all. Someone making a ballad around 1600 might do the same, especially if they WERE telling an old story, or if they wanted to make it sound like they were not talking about contemporary events.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:32 AM

Margaret - I agree. Although it settles the argument against my original assertion, having looked at the book Wit Restored in its entirety I think that is exactly what Mennish and Smith are trying to do. There's numerous 'merry England' ballads in the book referred to as the 'old ballad of. . .'

There is some recent work on how Royalists tried to re-create a vision of 'Olde Merrie England' as part of the propaganda effort against the Republican and Protectorate regimes (in 1658 very few in Charles II's close circle believed that he would be restored only 2 years later) - and Wit and Drollery books (which were publicly burned by the authorities who knew they were anything other than innocent books of ballads) were part of this effort. It would be interesting to go through them all because lots of folk material survives because of them.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,Big Vern
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 06:56 AM

My apologies - I forgot to sign in above. Although the point still stands, that a reader in 17th Century England or Scotland would think the ballad set in the Catholic past or in present day Ireland. As to dating a ballad there are of course two issues - dating it from the point of view of the historian/folklorist - i.e. when it was actually first written and literary dating (or whatever the terminology is) - i.e. dating it on internal evidence when it was supposed to take place.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: pavane
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

Thread creep again
I would just like to note that my ancestor was directly involved in the festivities of the Restoration in May 1660, including attending a banquet on board the 'Royal Charles' off Holland, addressed an ode to the new King, and included a description of the event in one of his books.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 09:38 AM

I sense this version may not be quite the original:

A holiday, a holiday, so the rain was falling hard,
Lord Arlen's wife went into the town with her husband's credit card
And when the shopping it was done, she went back to where her car was parked.
And there she saw little Matty Groves, nicking sat-navs in the dark.

Come home with me, little Matty Groves, come home with me today,
And I will do such things to you as will take your breath away.

I can't come home, I won't come home, I can't come home for my life,
For I see by your personal number plate you are Lord Arlen's wife.
What if I am Lord Arlen's wife, Lord Arlen he has gone,
Down to the pub at Eastbridge, to play his melodeon.

I can't come home, I won't come home, I can't come home, I fear,
For I'm due in court in half an hour for nicking a Cavalier.
You can come home, little Matty Groves, you can come home today,
For I'm the very close friend of a magistrate, he'll see that you're OK.

I can't come home 'cos if I did I'd be no use to you,
I've had a quart of Bacardi Breezer and six tins of Special Brew.
You must come home, little Matty Groves, I know we'll be all right,
For I can start without you, and you can take all night.

At this a servant standing by began to grow quite vexed,
He swore Lord Arlen he would know, so he sent him off a text.
And when Lord Arlen read the news, he began to swear and cuss,
He chucked his melodeon back in its box and jumped on the very next bus.

When he got back to his own bedroom, he peered around the door,
His lady fair and Matty Groves still at it on the floor.
Then Lord Arlen turned around and hurried from the room,
He came back with his camcorder, with its twenty times optical zoom.

And when the filming it was done, it was sold to Channel 4,
The three of them got stinking rich, so they made a dozen more.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,Big Vern
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

Pavane - that is interesting. The Royal Charles of course was originally the Naseby, the flag ship of the Protectorate's Navy: by all accounts it was a massive ship. Charles II was utterly humiliated when it was captured by the Dutch in the Medway in 1667. I wonder if an ballads were written about it?


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,Big Vern
Date: 13 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM

Indeed there is, although its pre-capture - in 1666 a broadside came out called Holland Turn to Tinder to the tune of Packington's Pound (Wing reference H2445A)


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 03:29 AM

Bit of a quibble Vern- I'm not so sure that the Elizabethan church was quite so Calvinist- what about Marprelate? But I quite agree about the role of the imagined past in the runup to the Civil War- on BOTH sides (Merry England v Norman yoke).


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: pavane
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:59 AM

I don't know about ballads, but I could lay my hands on the ode (written in French by Samuel Chappuzeau, a Calvinist as it happens, and tutor at the time to Prince William of Orange, Charles's nephew)


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: pavane
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 12:01 PM

Vern,
Even worse, the Dutch didn't have a use for it in their shallow waters, and soon sent it for scrap.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Apr 08 - 05:30 PM

Rusty Dobro, is that your own writing?   It's spectacular!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:02 AM

'Fraid so, Dave! Lacking the voice and ability to do justice to 'proper' folk, I churn out this nonsense to appeal to the most coarse , brutish and undiscerning of pub audiences. They are rarely disappointed in me, nor I in them.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,Big Vern
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 05:44 PM

PMB - As historians such as Collinson and Lake show - Marprelate was anti Episcopalian and pro-presbyterian but, issues of church government aside, he was within a Calvinist doctrinal consensus. A seventeenth century Calvinist is not by definition a presbyterian or indeed a puritan.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 04:10 AM

Yes, Vern, that's what I was saying- the Calvinists were the opposition within the church, which was NOT Calvinist. They executed Penry because they thought he was the writer. If Whitgift had any Calvinistic tendency, it was in organisation only


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Apr 08 - 04:46 AM

I know that this is not really the place for a historical debate but you confuse what I said above. The Calvinists were NOT oppositional in the pre Laudian CofE and doctrinally the Church WAS Calvinist.

The view that Calvinists were an oppositional movement against the Church of England is untenable since historians such as Tyacke's, Collinson's and Lake's extensive research over the past 50 years. As every history undergrad since about 1980 knows, Whitgift's Lambeth Articles of 1598 are unequivocally Calvinist on the doctrine of grace and salvation as are the pre revision 39 Articles. The English Bishops at the Synod of Dort held Calvinist positions and the famous TULIP five points of Calvinism were largely the work of the English bishops. A study of even obscure Elizabethan and Jacobean printed sermons bears out that the Calvinist doctrine on grace and redemption was the centre of orthodoxy. There were of course disagreements as to vestments and the government structure of the church - but, with the exception of a minority of separatists, this was a debate that took place within the doctrinal Calvinist consensus of the Church of England. See the Peter Lake's numerous studies on this. Even in Europe, Calvinists were uncomfortable lifting the government structure of the Church to being a mark of the true Church.   Calvin himself did not do this (although he favoured Presbyterianism), rather it was largely Calvin's successor Beza in the 1580s.

As I said above the Marprelate controversy was not about Calvinism but about the government of the church and an attack on what Martin believed was the stalling of the reformation by wordly bishops. Yes Penry was executed, but not because he was Calvinist - Penry was not a member of the Church of England - he was a separatist and thus was something of an extremist. To call a separatist like Penry a 'Calvinist' and Whitgift not is is to equate the doctrine of ecclesiology as the sole mark of Calvinsim. This is plainly wrong: the TULIP formula agreed at Dort says nothing about the government of the Church. This is not 'Anglican' (which in the sense of ceremonial but protestant is an word only used by writers from the mid 18th century onwards - see OED) v Calvinist but Calvinists debating with themselves on the nature of a Reformed church.

I think that's enough from me on this topic, so i'll leave you to reply but I think we should eventually get back to Matty Groves :)


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:14 AM

Some time ago one of my friends was involved in a function at Rydal Hall in Cumbria (the north-west corner of England). He was shown an ornate wooden chest given to the Barnard family in the 16th century by the Musgraves on the occasion of a wedding in the Barnard family, in an attempt to end the long-running feud between them, said to have started in the 12th century.
This prompted him to sing the song. Having started, it occurred to him that there were several clergymen and numerous children listening, and perhaps it was not the most appropriate song for the audience. However, having started, he felt compelled to finish it, afer which there was a deathly silence until a small girl remarked "so it was quite like East Enders really, wasn't it"?
(East Enders is a soap opera on British TV.)


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM

Third time lucky I hope! This time I'll try not to hit the tab key before checking my spelling!
    My friend also said that the Musgraves arrived in England with William the conqueror and adopted the name somewhat later. They were sent north to discourage Scots raiders and later took over Featherstone Castle, which is still habitable, a few miles south of Haltwhistle. He said Musgrave means "valley of rats", so I suppose an alternative description would be "ratty grove".


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: pavane
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:43 AM

Just found a reference to a Musgrove in a different song.

Johnny Armstrongs last goodnight

Printed around 1711, supposedly about events of 1528.

Towards the end, the page Musgrove is the last survivor of the fight, and takes the news to Armstrong's wife. Probably nothing to do with the other song - but you never know.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 08 - 09:51 PM

Well though I haven't read everything on this page, all the history and stuff, I know this ballad but in a very different way. My family has carried this ballad on for as long as anyone can remember, along with alot of other ballads like Barbra Allen and Lady Margret, at least that's what we call them. As far as we knew they were as true as could be to the original versions since my family came from the Appalachian mountains where people carried these ballads to. I'm really amazed at how different the versions are-so perhaps my version and the version from the mountains has been very diluted-though these mountains are very secluded and I know for a fact my family didn't leave until the late 70's. Just thought I'd add my opinion. And my family, who still lives up there, sings it the exact same as always. I've never heard any variations, though of course I have never looked for them.
ps-we always sang it as "Lord Darnell"


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: pavane
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 02:37 AM

Could you post the words to your version? Would be an interesting comparison.

Lord Donald, Barnard, Barnett, Arlen and many other Lords are known!


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 04:50 PM

If you've ever saw the movie songcatcher it's exactly the same, basically because they went up there and collected old ballads. But in case you haven't here are the words. This is all sung with a higher pitch tone at the end, kind of a trademark for old appalachian ballads.

Oh Holy Day oh Holy day
the first one of the year
Little Mattie Groves to church he goes
some holy words to hear, hear, some holy words to hear

He spied some women dressed in black as they came into view
Lord Darnell's wife was gaily plad the flower of the few
few, the flower of the few

She stepped right up to little mattie groves
her eyes cast on the ground
"oh please oh please come with me sir as you pass threw this town, town, as you pass threw this town."

But what is said by little mattie groves
as he sat up in bed
"I fear it is your husbands mad and I will soon be dead
dead, i will soon be dead."

but little mattie groves he laid back down and soon fell off to sleep
when he awoke lord darnell was standing at his bed feet, feet,
standing at his bed feet

Saying,"how do you like my snow white dove," said,"how do you like my sheets, and how do you like my pretty little woman that's a laying in your arms asleep, sleep, laying in your arms asleep."

Well the first swing that little mattie made it hurt lord darnell's sore
the next swing that lord darnell made little mattie hit the floor, floor, little mattie hit the floor

As you can tell, pretty different lol. I did some research and I've come to figure out that alot of those old english ballds that were carried over were "mountanized" and changed to fit the vocabulary and tune of the mountain people, who of course even today are still secluded. It's really interesting to actually research this stuff now, I just saw the movie songcatcher and it got me really interested, since these are my family's old songs and I was amazed to here this version of it on the movie. definatly go check the movie out.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:05 PM

Hello Guest -

Can we convince you to take a 'name' and join Mudcat? I'm sure there are many folks here who would be interested in your family's songs and your insights and observations about this music.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:41 PM

well i could im sure but i have no musical background other than these songs lol. my brother plays every instrument known to man but i have no idea about the tunes and pitches, i just know the words and how to sing the songs lol. im not sure i could be of any real help


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 08 - 05:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgH_0zxqQE

no idea if this will help but i found this on youtube. it's from the movie songcatcher which has alot of the songs I grew up with. my grandparents sing these songs exactly like this. im sure most of ya'll know about this or have seen it but just in case..this is pretty much that "high pitch" at the end (i guess thats what you call it) lol
    Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
    Thanks.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Feb 15 - 05:57 PM

Another cached thread. The big ones are too cumbersome to transfer by way of individual messages.
-Joe-

Subject: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 12:21 AM

Hi,

I've begun looking at Child 81 in some detail and find that's I'm not understanding a few things.

1) Who is Matty Groves? He is named Little Musgrave by Child A but also litil musgray, Little Matha Grove, Little Mossy Groves, Little Mathew Grew, young Magrove, little MacGroves, Little Ned Groves, Little Maddy Gross, Little Mushiegrove, Young Marshal Grones, Young McGrover, Young LaGrove, or one of the many other related names.

Barry reports in BBM, 1929: There is not space for the proof here, but the editors feel that in their detailed study of "Musgrave" they have proved that all Child's English texts, A, B, C, are mere personal lampoons, of the reign of James I, directed against a prominent personage.

Who is this prominent personage?

2) One of the main openings found in Child D, E, H, K, L, and O begins with the ballad commonplace: There were four and twenty ladies/gentlemen; A- playin' at the ba'.

The "playing at the ball" has morphed into (version O) : Assembled at a ball. It also is similarly implied in North American versions that "ball" is a dance or gala. I thought this was a term used circa 1800-- so what is this (A- playin' at the ba') referring to?

3) Are there two basic North American types and how are they defined?

These are a couple questions I have. Any help is appreciated,

Richie




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 09:32 AM

Hi,

Question 1 may be extended to Lord Barnard and his wife. Lord Barnard is also Lord Daniel, Lord Arnold, Lord Orland, Lord Aulan, Lord Vanner, Lord Banner, Lord Thomas, Lord Donald, Lord Valley, Lord Bander, LordB arnett, Lord Barnaby, lord birnibie, Lord Vanover, Lord Diner, Lord Allen, Lord Barnswell, Lord Barlibas, Lord Bengwill, or "Lord Someone."

Who is the Lord Barry refers to in my last post.

About Child C we have this: The British broadside ballad, The Lamentable Ditty Of The Little Mousgrove And The Lady Barnet, published by F. Coles (London); T. Vere (London); and W. Gilbertson (London) sometime between 1658 and 1664, and archived at the Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads, shelfmark: Wood 401(91) with a note on the reverse by Wood stating that the protagonists were alive in 1543 [ref. Peacock, NL].

So Wood (or someone) writes that "the protagonists were alive in 1543." Who were the protagonists?

Richie




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 11:13 AM

Playing at the ba' will refer to playing ball. The precursor to modern football and rugby. Ball games were played throughout Britain and some of the older games still exist from Orkney down to Derbyshire. There a several games still in existence here in the Scottish Borders and here is a wee clip from the Jedburgh game called Jethart Hand Ba'. Basically played through the town with two side called The Uppies and The Dounies. Generally a play starts off as a big scrum until someone breaks free with the ball as they do about a minute into this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSXMCk-HRqc




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Richie
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 04:47 PM

Thanks Allan,

I think the earliest use of "ball" as a dance would be circa 1791. Anyone has info on that?


This is one of the main openings. It's found in Child D, E, H, K, L, and O begins with the ballad commonplace: There were four and twenty ladies/gentlemen; A- playin' at the ba'. Here are some of the examples:

Child D (Kinloch):

1 There were four and twenty gentlemen
A playing at the ba,

Child K (Robertson):
1    It's four and twenty bonny boys
Were playin at the ba,

Child L (Buchan):

1    Four and twenty handsome youths
Were a' playing at the ba,

Child E (Campbell) and Child H (Motherwell):

1    Four and twenty gay ladies
Were playing at the ba,

Child O (Sampson- from gypsy) dating to the early 1800s;

1    There was four-and-twenty ladies
Assembled at a ball,

Notice that in Child O "playing at the ball" has changed to "assembled at a ball." This change is found frequently in versions from North America that use this opening. It certainly makes more sense. Since the stanza following it is about who comes in (usually to church) "arrayed in white" etc.

Richie




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 05:01 PM

The bit about the football is interesting. Concentrate on Musgrove, which seems to be the root of all the other textual deviations. Musgrove is one of the English border Names from the east of Cumberland, often captains of Bewcastle. Similarly Barnard would be a root from which the others would deviate, but less likely any other way. The only locaql connection that I know is Barnard Castle in Durham, but that is rather a long way off. Bringing the yearlings home, from the American texts seems an odd pasttime, unless it is an allusion to reiving. And the first holiday of the year would before 1750 in England be March 25th, Lady Day, which was old new year's day (hence in a roundabout way the beginning of our tax year!) On the other hand, a pure flight of fancy, one of the variants not cited above is Lord Darnel ~ could that be Darnley? I doubt it, though his wife had a reputation, and Bothwell was known to like border football. I'm letting my imagination run riot here! Everything after the tax year bit is pure moonshine. It's just a rattling good yarn, whoever the protagonists are.




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 05:11 PM

Given Richie's dates, surely another candidate must be James Hamilton, 2nd Earl of Arran, regent for Mary Queen of Scots following the death of James V in 1542, and his wife Lady Margaret.




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 05:39 PM

Barnard/Barnet and Musgrove were names very common all over the north of England and Scotland in Medieval times. Wood may well have been right but with such common names we are clutching at straws. People far better placed to make this a real event than anyone living today have tried and failed to give a definite identification to these characters. Speculation is fun but without strong evidence you're pissing in the wind.

Richie, I'm sorry but I find some of your lines of questioning intriguing. Why are you so preoccupied with more recent corruptions when the earliest versions state clearly what is going on? Playing at the ball very likely simply means they were tossing a ball around, not necessarily playing some specific game. In this case numbers seem to be very specific and a search of ball games played in the early modern period shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Having said that I also find Barry's claim interesting, but my natural scepticism is also suspicious. Why mention this earth-shattering snippet and then leave no evidence of where to find the details?

Just about every printer in the 17thc printed the ballad. The earliest ref I have is 1630. It's just possible if it were a real event that took place in 1543 there were still people around who could remember it.




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: breezy
Date: 11 Feb 15 - 06:00 PM

who WAS , not who IS, cos by my reckoning thems all dead long ago.

so, who was Matty Groves ?




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Richie
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 12:00 AM

Hi,

TY for your replies. Barry devoted 44 pages to Little Musgrave in BBM, and if Musgrave lived and was in fact a real person, he is dead now- TY. The Reign of James I, first Stuart King, was from 1603 to 1625, he ruled as King of Scotland (as James VI) from 1567 to 1625.

Barry published two additional versions in BFSSNEin he early 1930s. He had no additional comment of his earlier assertion.

In BBM, 1929 Barry says, "Nothing is clearer than that there were two very early forms of this ballad, one containing King Henry, the other "Away Musgrave." The former appears in America where it has been purely traditional until within a very few years; the latter was the original of the English and Scottish copies."

Three years later in BFSSNE after printing Wells' version from Kentucky, Barry again assert the two types of ballad theory but explains it differently: There are two forms of "Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard" in American tradition, distinguished as the Banner type and the Arnold type (Barry, Eckstorm and Smyth, British Ballads from Maine, pp. 181, ff.) Miss Wells's version is of the Arnold type and clearly very old; its nearest textual relatives are Maine E, F, and Belden A (ibid., pp. 169-70, 172-80), particularly the last, with which it agrees in the interpretation of the alarm-call on the bugle. The melody is an excellent set of what was certainly the original air to the ballad. In stanza 8, formed of the second couplets of two stanzas, with the refrain of each, only the second part of the melody is used, repeated to fit each half-stanza. A version of the Banner type is in Bulletin, FSSNE., 8, pp. 6-8.

Flanders headnotes (written by Coffin) in her books Ancient Ballads (1961) explain it this way: Barry feels there-was a pre-American split in the tradition of the ballad, one form featuring the "away, Musgrave, away" lines and the "bugle-blowing" scene, the other retaining mention of King Henry. The Henry type he believes to date back to the time of Henry VIII and to be the progenitor of almost all the American texts. The "away, Musgrave" type, he feels, gave birth to the Anglo-Scottish texts and a few late American arrivals.

Barry printed the "Lord Banner type" which was taken from Orlon Merrill in New Hampshire in BFSSNE 1931.

These are the two types I was talking about in my first post.

Richie




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 03:49 AM

I used to love The Groves Family. Lenny was my favourite.




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Feb 15 - 07:56 AM

Richie,
I haven't time to look into this at the moment, but to be honest you are probably the best placed person yourself to look at all of the American versions and come to some sort of conclusion. If you subscribed to the Ballad-list you would get very knowledgeable help from the likes of Bob Waltz who revels in this sort of analysis.

I'm just about to start some dating for Steve R and then I'll have a look at it. I have the Flanders set but don't have many copies of Bulletin or Barry's BBM.

Whilst there are excellent examples of ballads being preserved in an older form in the States (Bramble Briar) I'm rather sceptical of anything earlier than 1700.




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Richie
Date: 18 Feb 15 - 12:01 PM

Hi,

My computer went out. I've compiled the versions from the West Indies.

Little Musgrove- Forbes (JM) pre1924 Beckwith A, B
Little Musgrove- Maroons (JM) pre1924 Beckwith C
Lord Barnet- female singer (JM) 1957 Leach
Miss Notty- Jobe (St. Vincent) 1966 Abrahams A
Matty Glow- Antoine (St Vincent) 1966 Abrahams B
Garoleen- Joseph (St Vincent) 1966 Abrahams C
Matty Gru- McIntosh (St. Croix) 1989 REC

Any other versions? Anyone have the text to Matty Gru or known when it was first recorded?

All the versions are somewhat corrupt- the names are all different "Matty Glow" is Lady Barnard in one.

This is a complicated ballad as far as categorizing it. There are different openings and different types based in part on Barry's conclusions.

However there doesn't seem to be any definitive "real people" that the ballad is based on - and no one has answered the comments by Barry or Wood (broadside) - even Barry did not comment further which means to me that he could not come up with verifiable names.

Richie




Subject: RE: Origins: Who is Matty Groves?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 15 - 05:34 PM

Henry VIII? Pooh! Why not Henry I?

You are probably better placed to make your own judgments on these versions as you probably have access to more variants than Barry had.

Even where we have a pretty good idea who the original characters were in a ballad, many of the ballads were based on hearsay, legends and local folklore, and though they tell a sort of truth that people wanted to believe in they seldom contain many of the real facts. Many of the Scottish ballads were for instance based on one side of the story, mostly well distorted in that side's favour. Others were written to please the rich patrons whose forebears featured in them. This was going on even as late as Scott's time.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: GUEST,mpainter
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 05:19 AM

The year can be put to 1535 through the one version collected near Asheville, NC. The reference " gone to consecrate King Henry at Whitehall" can be documented as a historical event.


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Subject: RE: Mattie Groves - What year?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 15 - 07:52 AM

Don't know if this has been mentioned before on any other thread; but talking of the young man's name {Mattie Groves, Musgrave, Musgray &c}, Paul Carter used in the 1950s to sing what he said was a Canadian version where the young man is called The Young Leboux, which doesn't appear to be even a variant of the usual name[s]. Anyone come across that nomenclature? I forget what the lord & lady were called, but I think it was something akin to Barnard.

≈M≈


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