BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:31 PM

Yayyyy! Got the 200th. I would have said so in this message but Epona nicked the 199th:-( I hate you...;-) I was hiding behind the Gusset handle and hoping no-one would see me:-)

I was working. The f£$%^&g scsi card was broke. Then the f$%^&*g tape drive didn't work. Glad I'm on hols for a fortnight after tomorrow. We are having American visitors for the next 2 weeks so I will be checking in but not too often.


While I am here (following a 260 mile drive, Special Chow Mein, a bottle of Gallo's finest Chardonay and a bottle of Fursty Ferret...:-) I must say that Tirghra's description seems fine to me.

Now. How about the United Kingdom...

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:34 PM

Hahaha! I KNEW it was you Dave! :)

The United Kingdom? For starters, it's not united....:)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:35 PM

PS - I don't realy hate you Epona. But if you could see your way to getting me a bottle of Glen Morangie Maderia wood finish, a ticket to a Jethro Tull concert and a night with the girl of my dreams you would go even higher in my estimation...

(You wouldn't be that girl by any chance would you?)

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:38 PM

Only if you're an Irishman with healthy dose of attitude...or a good bottle of blackberry brandy. :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,wld
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:43 PM

epitome - how many syllables are you using there?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:44 PM

PS Dave: I'm the girl of every man's dreams ;) and Jethro Tull? What's that about man? We'll have to save it for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:46 PM

How about a Pole with a healthy dose of attitude? The 'mercuns make as much fun of us as the Brits do of the Irish:-) Blackeberry Brandy? Not got any of that I'm afraid but how about a bottle of 60% abv Absinthe and a hydroponic tank full of the finest Nederweed?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:48 PM

4. Definition: a standard or typical example.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:51 PM

If she doesn't take you up on the offer, I'll take the Absinthe off your hands, Dave...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:54 PM

Well, the absinthe is a start. It's green at least. If catsPHiddle is right, and nationality is partly a state of mind, maybe you can will yourself to be Irish! :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:56 PM

Love yer country as much as you want, Tirghra, but you can buy yer own Absinthe:-) (Asda - £14.99. Made in Poland btw...)

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 05:58 PM

Congratulations on your 200th Dave.

If ever a man deserved it, it is you

I digress, however....

Is not the 'United Kingdom', just perpetuating the myth?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:03 PM

Aye, 'appen, to use my own vernacular. Anyroads - I'm off to bed. I can still see white lines running down the middle of me eyeballs. Catch up tomorrow and see you all randomly over the course of the next fortnight.

Unless of course Epona would rather see me other than randomly...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:05 PM

I'd like to hear what the Scottish and Welsh think! We already know what the Irish think...

E

And Dave, I was trying to steal the 200th from you, I was just too quick! (Or maybe you were too slow and got lucky?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:09 PM

Dave, you couldn't handle me. That's a promise! Go to sleep...:)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:26 PM

yes I always think 4, but some people say the tome bit- like a book, tome

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:56 PM

I'm back - to backtrack up to my last post.
Well - I'm English. But I said I was British because in the first post it said 'British'. If it had been 'are the English anti-Irish?' I would have said I was English.
I was just... conforming.
I'm proud of coming from the South-West (don't ask why cos I don't know - most people cant wait to get away!), most people from Cornwall (that I know anyway) would say they were Cornish. Same as a lot of people from Yorkshire don't say they're form England they say they're from Yorkshire.
It's just - something that you do innit!?
ANd if you've lived in the same place for ages, or the place you come from, then it becomes part of your identity. Or it does for me anyway as I've lived in Somerset (ooh-arr land if your name is Greg Stephens) all my life. So it's sort of part of who I am.
ANYWAY - yeh. Thats it basically!
xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:22 AM

"It's just - something that you do innit!?

Unfortunately that sounds just like what the scorpion said, while he was hitching a lift across the river.

'Cornish' is a Celtic Nationality in it's own right, however, though I know that identity has been sort of squeezed out of most of them.
'Yorkish' isn't, as far as I can remember from the old history books

Tis interesting, though, how many identities 'British' people have to deal with.

No wonder there's so much confusion

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:59 AM

'British'? Not I.

English on my dads side, Welsh on me Mums. This is an interesting discussion because now it appears to have trancended the argument 'Are we anti-irish' and become 'who are we'?

The United Kingdom (often referred to as Great Britain) is an artifice constructed to:

a) Try to keep different nationalities from recognising their own cultures by homogenizing them into a single artificial 'nationality'.

b) A way of letting the Royal Family lay claim over us all (sod that).

c) Creating a tourist industry for Americans to drool over whilst missing the best bits (which are not beefeaters, Buck Palace, the Houses of Parliment etc).

d) Ignore the real continuities the ordinary people of these Isle have with each other and are one of our greatest strengths.

BUT, as Tir Eoghain has already mentioned the subject, does being born in a country automatically endow you with all the traits of that particular national character? Do we lose all the influence for our ancestors becuase we were born in a different country?

Personally, I don't think so. That would make Shane McGowan English for a start, so that must be wrong. I know people born in Germany who are not Germans etc.

And in my eyes, we don't have to deal with so may confused identities as you may think (though many ignorant people intermix Britian/England). We have scousers, brummies and mancs the same way the Irish have Kerrymen, Ulstermen etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:42 AM

"...does being born in a country automatically endow you with all the traits of that particular national character"

Good point, stigweard.

'Automatically' you could only use if 'traits' are being defined as genetic factors.
I was born in 'Northern Ireland', and me and Shane McGowan are in the same boat in that sense, only in so far as to the fact that we are both entitled to hold Irish Passports...
I, like Shane McGowan am also entitled to hold British Passports.

So yes, parentage, where you see your soul as being, all play their parts in forming one's identity

"Please note also, that I think 'British' to be an overlay designed years ago to keep their individual citizens 'Nationalism-free' (in the Scots, Welsh, Irish instances, for instance) - Tiocfaidh

'Northern Irish' people have always had a choice about what passports they choose to hold. Scottish and Welsh people have no other option than to hold 'British' ones. That may change; I hope it does.
Dave may possibly be entitled to hold a Polish passport, for instance; perhaps even qualify to play for their football team.
Such are the 'dynamics' of nationality.

I would much prefer to see 'Country' passports, otherwise people might think a Scottish fella comes from Wales, or even (...cos it's written on your passport, also...), 'Northern Ireland'

I think like Dave (and by the looks of it stigweard, yourself), that 'British' is an ambiguous burden ordinary people have to carry, which denotes absolutely nothing, except oppression and Colonialism.

There are those who prefer it just the way it is, stigweard; all connotations intact.
That is the 'British' I and other Irish people have experienced; the average one, of which has been contended to be anti-Irish.

Yeah, of course, though..., I'm from Tyrone, Ulster, Ireland.

It sort of stops at Ireland, though...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 07:51 AM

Ahhhh - Good nights kip and a nice restful morning back at the ranch soon gets rid of them there motorway blues:-)

Shame, Epona, we could have had a whale of a time with that absinthe at the Tull gig. Never mind. There are things that were never meant to be...

Meanwhile, back from fantasy land to the topic in hand:D We have agreed that the peoples of Scotland, Wales and England are not anti-Irish but the British are. If Wolfgang is right and Great Britain is currently made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the peoples of the Scotland, Wales and England are not anti-Irish then the only British remaining are the Irish ones. So it must follow that the only anti-Irish Brits are the Irish ones;-) Confuses the hell out of me!

Seriously though, as Stigweard says above, we are now discussing 'who are we?'. I don't find it incongruous at all that I can be many things at once. I think we are all a little like that. What I think we need to discuss is how we address the 'Britishness' issues that have been brought to light. While I disagree with Johnson (I think it was him anyway?) when he says that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel I would say that housing feelings of antagonism to anther race and hiding that behind the mask of patriotism is indeed something to be frowned upon.

I am proud to be English. I think generaly we do not celebrate our Englishness enough. Those people who think that to do so somehow equates to racism have obviously never been to Ireland or Scotland or Wales where the traditions of those countries are proudly displayed for all to see. We have become frightened of the view that the 'British' are seen as the Victorian Imperial conquerers of old. It is unfortunate that British does seem to be interchangeable with English to some - I have now made the concious decision to try and steer clear of using the term ever again!

As to the United Kingdom... It has been mentioned it is no longer united. Nor does it have a King. How the term can even be used is beyond me:-)

So, rant off, can I summarise and perhaps lead into the new discussion? The 'British', meaning the peoples of the lands within Great Britain are not anti-Irish. The British, meaning the generic term for the peoples who brought about this mess in the first place and wish to continue the debacle are indeed anti-Irish. The question now is how do we distinguish between the two in conversation? I suggested earlier that the term Brit should be commited to the history books. Perhaps not. Perhaps we should use the term 'British' as an abreviation for the people of all the countries making up the British isles and the term 'Brit' or 'Brits' to describe the nutters who believe that the sun never sets on the empire? Or would that be too confusing? Who can come up with a better name? I am sure we will get some good suggestions;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:00 AM

Is not the term 'British Isles' wrong then as well, Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tiocfaidh
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:13 AM

... One thing at a time, Ciaran...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 08:14 AM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 09:03 AM

It seems simple enough to call the English just that, English. The Scottish, Scottish and the Welsh, Welsh. I agree Dave that the term British needs to be put away (put down perhaps?). But the problem seems thus: many people believe the term to be interchangeable with English, which we've agreed it's not. So, Dave, time to start telling your mates to stop using the term. Maybe it will spread from there...

Stigweard, great post.

Oh, and Dave, I have a few names that could replace the term "Brit" that refers to the defenders of imperialism...and I'm sure Tir Eoghain and Tiocfaidh have a few as well. And I'm also sure you can read my mind to know what kind of terms they would be. I'll leave that there. And how was your visit to fantasy land? :)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Grab
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 02:01 PM

Oh, and just to kind of stir things up, there *are* people in Scotland and Wales who *do* hate English people. Look up the actions of the various Scots and Welsh nationalists. Some of them aren't able to distinguish between the actions of a Parliament based in London (which has sometimes crapped on both, although equally often it's also crapped on England), and people coming from England. Some of them just want an excuse for a punch-up.

I don't know any Welsh nationalists, but I do know Scottish nationalists whose definition of Scottish is basically "not English". It's great winding them up! ;-) And if we quote the UK National Anthem as having bits in the later verses (which no-one knows) about Scotland/Wales/Ireland - well that was written many years ago, but the Scots consciously chose, 10 years ago, an anthem celebrating their victory over an English army about 700 years ago, instead of anything celebrating "Scottishness" (although for those people I referred to earlier, "beating the English" would be the very embodiment of Scottishness). Go figure.

So things ain't that simple either... :-/

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

Is not the term 'British Isles' wrong then as well, Dave? .

Hmmmm. Not sure T.E. I think geographicaly it is probably correct. Just as the Hebrides is a term for that collection of islands or Europe is the term for the (motley?) collection of countries to the right of us on a map.

Certainly a much better term than Great Britain!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:18 PM

If we're trying to get rid of the term British, then "British Isles" would be incorrect. At least, I think that's what Tir Eoghain is saying. So, what else could we call them? I'm willing to volunteer my name to the cause: Isles of Epona. Yes, that has a nice ring to it!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

Graham,

I know several Scotsman that will tell you without hesitation that they "hate the British." I've never heard them say they hate the English though, which is interesting and seems to fit in with the rest of our discussion.

Has is been your experience that they've said they hate the English?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 09:16 AM

One of the most fascinating and interesting threads to be found on the Mudcat in quite a while. Questioning, debating, and civil. Congrats to all.

Epona, I love the screen name, and your obvious love of Irish culture. But while we are being pedantic, you might have chosen the name of a legendary Irish woman instead of a Hallstadt Celt (Austrian), eh? (ducking for cover here, sniggle, sniggle)

So yes, parentage, where you see your soul as being, all play their parts in forming one's identity

It was great to see this comment from one of my cousin's on the Eastern side of the pond. It is what I have said about "Irish Americans" right along. To be sure their are many who are Irish one day a year and know nothing of their culture. But there is also a very large group, myself included, who have been raised by immigrant families to be "Irish". We are raised with the customs, the music and the language. We see ourselves that way, fully understanding that we weren't born there. But Irish nonetheless. It is our identity and our soul place.

BTW, in my family one never refers to it as "Northern Ireland". It is the north of Ireland. We do not see it as a separate state. The political reality, when it is all said and done, may be something different. But to my family thus it shall ever be.

As to the main topic, I don't feel like one can paint with such a broad brush. It's like asking white Americans if they are anti black. Ludicrous assertion, and gratuitous as well. It can be denied just as gratuitously. Or answered affirmatively in a gratuitous fashion. Of the folks from England, Yorkshire, Wales, Scotland, and all the other parts of Britain, that I have met, I have yet to meet any that are anti Irish. That is not to say that I haven't met those that hate the armed struggle and those that perpetuate it.

The larger issue raised here is the provocative "what does being British mean?" discussion. I note the probing questions by Tir.

Identity ...... wow ...... this is getting good.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 10:16 AM

What a silly thread.

I've never met an average Brit. I've met English, Scots and Welsh people who sneer at Irish people, and also those who are too intelligent to sneer at any group of people or associate any supposed national qualities to any group including their own.

By the way, Northern Irish people no longer have the right to claim an Irish passport, as far as I know, since the claim to the Six Counties was removed by referendum from the Irish Constitution on the request of Northern unionists as a precondition to negotiations for the Good Friday Agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 03 Sep 05 - 02:11 PM

JTT - I was looking at Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs webpage and those in the North are still allowed to get an Irish passport it appears to me. You may want to check it and tell me if I'm reading it incorrectly.
Have you read over the entire "silly thread" to see how this discussion has progressed? Let me point you to Tirghra's post above that summarizes what arguments on this page have been over...maybe it won't be as silly then if you see how there were two different definitions of "British" being used. And, after reading it, maybe you'll see why some believe there is an average "Brit". Hope this clears up the confusion.

Mick - Nice to know someone else knows the name! Thanks for caring ;)

Hope the weekend is turning out nicely for everyone!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 11:41 AM

Perhaps we need to be sure of what we are calling Great Britian and The British Isles here.

The British Isles: Is a geographical term for the archipeligo that lies off the west coast of northern Europe

Great Britain: The largest of the the islands made up of the countries Wales, England and Scotland (and Cornwall). However, the first parliment following the Act of Union in 1707 was know as the Parliment of Great Britian. Here we see the beginnings of the Britian/England substitution that still occurs today.

The United Kingdom: Was a result of the act of Union with Ireland, when William Pitt decided to impose direct rule in 1801. And we all know what happened next. This is when the Union Flag became the 'national flag'.

Interestingly, the establishment of the plantations in Ireland was at the behest of a Scottish King, James I, not an English one. Not that it makes a jot of difference now.

One of the truths here is not that England as such has had an unfairly large influence on the history of the Isles, but south-east England specifically has, and this is still very much the case to this day. The London-centric nature of the United Kingdom is one of the most scandalous issues facing us today, and the influence of Westminster is hopefully on the wane, at least in Scotalnd and Wales, who really should be independent. England itself needs to devolve power to the regions so they can govern themselves as they see fit - A break from a thousand years of Norman feudalism and the return to more the regional forms of goverment of the thousand of years before they arrived.

Now, identity . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 12:09 PM

Using the same logic as our Irish interragators on this thread:

I am not anti-Irish.

But I am anti-'Irish'. Clear? Nope? Snap.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 04 Sep 05 - 08:02 PM

You seem more of an "Aunty Fanny" Oooh Aah2.
Lets get a life people, ok?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:24 PM

Ooh-Aah2, I would direct you to Tirghra's post (as I have many others! Thanks, Tirghra!) where he defined the different definitions we on this thread have of "British". And then, I would love to hear what the different definitions of Irish are that you've come across. Thanks!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 05 - 02:33 PM

Terry Wogan, Ian Paisley, Daniel O'Donnel......love the Irish!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 Sep 05 - 05:30 AM

The British Isles: Is a geographical term for the archipeligo that lies off the west coast of northern Europe

Interesting, how different geographical terms like 'North' can be understood. If I was asked how the archipelago off the coast of Northern Europe was called I'd respond with 'Lofoten'.

There's too much of 'you may not use that word this way' in this thread for my taste. People do use the same words with different meanings. It is better to get used to that and to try to understand how other people use words instead of telling them how they should (not) use them.

Even the geographical term 'British Isles' is ambiguous. Geographers tend to exclude the Channel Island and include the Faroes, laypersons don't.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Keith A o hertford
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:27 AM

Irish jokes apart (and some are now being retold as blonde jokes) I have not come across any genuine anti Irish sentiment in England. For myself I have visited Ireland many times and there or here I have yet to meet an Irish person i did not like (perhaps I have been lucky).
Curator referred to one of his "Active Service Units" operating while he was here. These were actually vicious indisciminate killers.
Only in a country of saints would there be no backlash against the country they claimed to be acting for. In the same way that there was some anti Japanese feeling in the USA after Pearl Harbour.

They detonated, without any warning, large bombs of dynamite packed with coach bolts in crowded pubs, killing, maiming and mutilating indiscriminately.
They bombed shopping streets, firebombed shops, planted bombs in postboxes on busy streets, and fired submachine guns into a crowded resaurant.
When cornered by armed police they took a poor terrified middle aged couple hostage in their home for days, but promptly surrendered when they thought the SAS were coming. They were only brave when attacking helpless, undefended and unarmed victims.

Shamefully they were welcomed home as heroes by Gerry Adams.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:03 AM

"Well then he's Irish, I would imagine. Usually follows the country you're born in, Nationality does...."

To quote Arthur Wellesly, Duke of Wellington... (or paraphrase as I don't have the correct quote to hand):

"Just because one is born in a stable, it doesn't make one a horse".

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Gadaffi
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:20 AM

Anti-Swedish after last night. Well, one Swede in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:23 AM

" . . . try to understand how other people use words instead of telling them how they should (not) use them."

Sorry if it appears I am telling other people how to use words, it is not my intention to appear pedantic or didactic. I just find it interesting, that's all.

The point of my post (which I did not make explicit, I admit) is the terms Great Britian/British/United Kingdom are often confused, and this confusion is reflected in the perception of the British abroad and by the population themselves. I suppose it is as much about the changing use of language as anything.

To get back to the subject, I am also interested in the question of identity and closeless to the land. In this day and age, many people can live their lives without getting close o the land in which they live. From gardening to hillwalking, these activites bring us closer to the actual land we live on, which we choose to label 'England', 'Wlaes' or whatever.

To what extent does our relationship with the land define our identities?

Come to think of it, are we discussing our cultural identities or our personal identited?

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:23 AM

Keith A o hertford I watched that programme you are referring to on channel 4 television last Thursday, The Year London was Bombed.And Gerry Adams at the end of it welcoming them home or out of prison. Reminded me of the General Mike Jackson get his medal of the queen for his actions in Derry in 1972,Bloody Sunday.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 07:03 AM

The point of my post Guest, was that given such murderous terrorist atrocities were perpetrated, some hostility was inevitable.
Which bits did you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:11 AM

The question should have been are you anti irish or just anti ira?

Would have given a totally different response. Curator and the pretenders seem to have trouble differentiating between the two, and therefore see any criticism of the ira as a criticism of the irish.

Of course most decent irish folk didnt blow up kids and neither did they agree with it. And most decent non irish people are not anti irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM

I'm as patriotic as the next man, but it was great seeing Beckham and his gang of synchronised haircuts getting screwed last night.

Nice one Ireland!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:45 PM

Ireland lost 1-0 to France, WLD.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 03:56 PM

Isn't the discussion much less fun without the Adams family contributing?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Tirghra
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 04:29 PM

GUEST, Keith A -

"The point of my post Guest, was that given such murderous terrorist atrocities were perpetrated, some hostility was inevitable"

Here's another point. Atrocities were not committed only by groups working in England, and yet that's all you posted about in order to substantiate your later statement that hostility was inevitable. How much are you aware of the atrocities committed by the British government and supported by the British government on the population of Ireland? I ask only because maybe you aren't honestly aware of everything that's taken place here in the name of your government and that is why you post about why the English have a right to be hostile. If your argument holds true, then the Irish have a right to be downright livid. But yet, I stand behind the GFA as do my friends and family. One can accept hatred and let it consume him, or he can remember all that has befallen his family, his community, his country and decide that a positive change MUST be made in order to assure freedom for those that follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Sep 05 - 05:13 PM

Tirghra
The thread is about anti Irishism in England.
Do you want to start discussing the obverse?
I said that in my experience there is little or no antiIrishism, but having people blow up our pubs, shops, streets, and restaurants in the name of the people of Ireland had to cause some bad feeling here.