BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Oh bugger I missed it! Well done Khatt!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:03 AM

I'm the average Brit
It was me
i caused all the trouble
sorry about that

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 10:09 AM

Oi Stigweird,
             On a slightly more serious note, I did read your last post and you are pretty much spot on! I am English, not British. The term 'Britain' means bugger all to me. The Scots and Welsh have their own parliaments, when do the English get theirs?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 01:06 PM

Rock on, Ted! Lets loose this stupid 'Great Britain' tag once and for all. I'd be happy with a seperate Lancashire Lobby as well but that's just me;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:29 PM

Bingo!

I don't think Tír Chonaill was referring to you, stigweard (or indeed any of the people that want to explore this area); we have used the phrase 'non-thinker' and the like, referring to the ones here at Mudcat who don't want to think to any degree of depth on the subject. We are trying not to appear patronising, given the many ways this subject could be construed.

We have always been trying to discuss the term 'British' ('Brit), and hoping that you copped the differentiation between that and 'English'.

It is absurd to think of us as anti-English; no doubt there are many in Ireland who are. But as I once famously said to a Wexford man in a pub one night, that if anyone had the right to be anti-English, it is the ones who were left voiceless in 1921.... and we aren't.
Anti-British is a different matter altogether, and that emotion leans more towards the un-necessary coat-trailing and provocation the Establishment and their supporters (not confined to squaddies etc..)
In mitigation to Dave's mitigation, I would further contend that certain professions attract certain kinds of people, and not always for the sake of a deep sense of committment felt to serve the public.
Some do like the power such positions afford.

We have been on this train of thought all along, and have tried to avoid the sidesteps that the people who did not want to discuss the subject have put in our way.

Good man, Ted!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:30 PM

Some good points there Stigweird, a well thought out post.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 02:57 PM

Tír Eoghain, I sent you an email on your work site. Did you ever get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 03:27 PM

Should have been "..provocation of the Establishment and their supporters."

I also do not think that the present climate you describe, stigweard, as being prevalent in England is 'well deserved', neither. Absolutely not.
Certainly not in regard to it's citizens, anyway. In fact, I think the war mongerers should be the first ones (if not the only ones) on the front line. Those people tend to wear suits most days, and the vast majority don't have faces.
Even better get the future perfect UN to stipulate that anyone who wants to invade anyone else should play Chess instead (... no ABBA or Tim Rice jokes, now; ok?).
Something like that, anyway...

Far from being a 'Pro-IRA' thread, or indeed an 'Anti-English' one, this discussion, which goes all the way back to last May has been an exploration process of what the term British means to you.
And why.

I, for one am delighted that the importance of 'Britishness' is not widespread among those that have contributed positively to this thread.

'Britishness' means 'anti-everything' in my opinion; it is seen that way throughout the World. It is just one of those words that has never shaken off the connotations of an 'over-pride' in one's homeland.

I believe everybody should be proud of where they come from. Identity is that what roots us, and every person in the World deserves that dignity afforded them.

'British' ties everybody together to London, and strips even the English of their identity.

Good man(?) stigweard.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 03:33 PM

I did, Den. Thanks.
I've been running around like mad this past few weeks, and I'm behind a little bit. Will write a veritable tome over the weekend. Sorry for not getting around to it yet.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:42 PM

"everybody should be proud of where they come from. Identity is that what roots us, and every person in the World deserves that dignity afforded them."

lots of us don't feel we came from anywhere. our parents moved around for work, and they had no great feeling about where they came from, or where they were at present. and for us - patriotism is a bit puzzling.

i used to think I was partly Irish, til I went to Ireland.

I always think artists like the Dubliners and the Yetties are lucky because they did come from somewhere. sort of Martin luther stuff - Here I stand!

I didn't like it when a GUEST(typical bloody GUEST!) in a recent thread expressed the thought that every English soldier who had been killed in Northern Ireland richly deserved it. But I don't like homicidal thoughts directed at anybody. Nothing to do with the justice or otherwise of the English cause.


That Hoyt Axton song - Never been to Spain - says it quite well. Or the Chritopher Isherwood book - Down there on a visit.

A character in the book says derisively, You're one of life's tourists - I bet you're always sending cards saying Down here on a visit.

And I think that's how a lot of us feel. we aren't interested in being a geordie, or a tyke, or whatever. we don't want to be defined by place.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:12 AM

I'm always amused by people who claim that the English 'lack self identity', 'don't know who they are' etc etc. I have never felt the slightest concern or doubt that I am English, and that I know exactly what it means. The trouble is that it is so hard to articulate. These proud, certain Scots and Welsh now, compared with whom we're so uncertain.... take away the common factor that we spent many happy years kicking them, and what have you got?

The Irish owe a deep and abiding debt to the British. Without anti-British bitterness, seen in such delicious profusion on this thread, their culture would dissolve into kitch and cliche. Ancestral hatred gives being Irish a kind of grandeur that that it would not otherwise have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:29 AM

I never thought I would get a laugh on a cold Saturday morning, but thanks Ooh-Aah2. Christ I wouldn't shout about your delight in being English. Cheers mate, great gag.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:20 AM

I'm quite pleased to be English as well, Divis. What's the problem with that?

DtG.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:24 AM

You don't celebrate it in quite such a fashion, Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:35 AM

well personally I thought it was a mean shitty thing to say ooh ahh.

you shouldn't be so dismissive of, and insensitive to other people's feelings

You are quite aware that for some people here, it's a resal big deal being Irish, or having Irish ancestors.

How would you feel if someone trampled on some aspect of Englishness that you value. (I suppose some of them do with joyous abandon, but 2 wrongs don't make a right!)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:38 AM

But the debate is about 'Britishness', wld.

Ooh-Aah2 is sidestepping the issue

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

Give the guy his little bit of fun. He is trying to stir it up. You never know whats going in a mans life, maybe there was no Ooh-Aah in the bedroom last night !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:42 AM

"Ancestral hatred gives being Irish a kind of grandeur that that it would not otherwise have"

He's married to an Irish girl, apparently

I wonder how she feels about that?

Or have you beaten any resistance out of her just as you would recommend others to do to us, O-A2?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:52 AM

Thanks GUEST she did read his posts last night then. No Ooh-Aah for a day or two !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:53 AM

Ooh-Aah2 doesn't even know whether to refer to himself as English or British....

Confused?

Not as much as Ooh-Aah2

... only a feckin' dimwit would call himself that

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 09:16 AM

Irish contributors,
we log on here because we are interested in music, and then like any gathering of friends we discuss the issues of the day.

The nature of the forum is that we are a mixture of all and every shade of opinion.
If you hate to read things you disagree with, you will hate it here.
If you hate to have your viewpoint questioned and challenged, then post them somewhere else, because that is what we do.

If you post a fragment of a story to support your case, I will probably ask for more details, not because I am a "voyeur" but because I am open to persuasion and I want to understand your point of view.
If the story is to painful to tell, say so and we will accept that, but in that case better not to post it on a global public forum at all.

All Irish people do not support the IRA. I have met them so I am sure you have.
Most of us have said that we support the cause but not the methods. Again it is not only british people who think that.

In my own posts I only ever ask questions and state my opinions. I never make personal attacks.
I expect to be told why my opinions are wrong, but why the abuse?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:00 AM

Noaxe to grind with above member.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

Help!
I am from Salford (North west England)
Does this mean that I am Brittish? or English?....both/eather?
If I am classified as English does this mean that I must affiliate with those southern jessies(South East England) or am I able to keep my (metaphorical) flat cap on and celebrate my oneness with the (ex) industrial north?
If I am Brittish must I walk arm in arm with our northtern friends and celebrate every diffeerent fesive occasion but my own.
NO! I am a mongrell and proud of it! I will celebrate (with as much good beer as is appropriate) any festival I choose and I will rebember that those who govern me do not care any more for me or mine than a cross every five years. I will view them with the respect they deserve! Just because we voted for them does not mean that we should be blamed for everything they do       8¬)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM

Ooh-Aah2 said,

"The Irish owe a deep and abiding debt to the British. Without anti-British bitterness, seen in such delicious profusion on this thread, their culture would dissolve into kitch and cliche. Ancestral hatred gives being Irish a kind of grandeur that that it would not otherwise have."


You are entitled to your opinion but it sounds more like jealousy than fact.

If anything, the British have a debt to the Irish for stealing their natural resources, attempting to subjegate their people and trying their best to destroy their culture.

Perhaps you would like to list the benefits that the Irish have derived from the British occupation of their homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:26 PM

Ye gads she knows about the diamonds!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dani
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 03:32 PM

Have been following this discussion from the sidelines. So interesting!

I'm inspired to share the following:

"Heard about the Irish version of Alzheimer's?

Patients forget absolutely everything but the grudges."

From a partly Irish-American family, I sure can attest to THAT facet of the gem.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM

the British have a debt to the Irish for stealing their natural resources

Not wishing to doubt you Dianavan but can you give us examples of what natural resources have been stolen from the Irish by anyone? Apart from their people of course. Of which you Americans have stolen more than your fair share;-)

Is this more of the knock the English that I wanted to know about?

Clogger - I'm from Salford - Irlams o'th' height to be exact! Where abouts are you from? Ever get to Swinton Folk Club? I'll be there tomorrow (Richard Graingers on btw) if you don't want to give the game away here:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

Hello ! Ah what about the English taking the lands of the Irish and giving it to the generals as a reward for their great work in battles in India and Africa. The Plantation of Ulster. Many stately houses in the North still remain in Planters hands today. So shocked you never hear of it. Time to do a little reading. Start with Captain Boycott.How would you feel your lands taken from you and then the new owner arrives and sets your rent for you?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:11 PM

Yes, it was the same here when William The Bastard came over from Normandy.
Norman descendants still squat on our finest lands.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Azizi
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 05:49 PM

Like Dani, I've also been following this discussion from the sidelines.

I admit that I know nothing about whether the average English or British person is anti-Irish. Thanks for the discussion. I've found it interesting and enlightening.

If I [as an admitted outsider] might ask, does the "average English" or "average British" includes persons of Caribbean, or persons of continental African descent?

I also wonder if Black British people [excuse the reference if it is wrong] distinquish between one ethnic group of White people or another.

As an African American it has been my experience that for most of us[African Americans]with regard to ethnicity, a White person is a White person is a White person.

Though it is somewhat off topic, let me share that in the mid 1960s I attended a college in New Jersey {United States} and for the first time learned that quite a number of WASP {White Anglo Saxon Protestants} differentiated between Jewish and non-Jewish White people. My first roomate was a blue eyed blond haired German Jewish girl whose last name was Bauman. [I was one of only 3 other Black students. I now 'get' why they roomed me with another "minority" student}. I considered my roomate to be White. I certainly couldn't tell the difference between her and other [non-Jewish Caucasian]females. But I learned quickly from conversations with her, from converations with other [WASPs} students, and from direct observations, that some of the students and some of the faculty/staff definitely were prejudiced against Jewish people. Although I don't remember this as clearly, it is likely that the small Jewish population at that school who stuck together for social support also had prejudices against the WASPs.

But I will never forget that some of these non-Jewish girls would talk [bad] to me about the Jewish students. And I remember thinking to myself that though these WASPs students put on a front, and pretended to accept me and the few other Black students who attended that college, they really didn't really couldn't like me [since I was Black]if they didn't like my White roomate and other White Jewish students.

What a mess this world was then, and [I'm sorry to say] still is today....

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

well yeh.....the rich lords of the manor nicked your lands. and they still own them.

they did that in England too, and most other places - and they still own the wealth of the country and most of the land.

in these days of multinational companies and conglomerates, who can say who actually owns their country though

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 06:45 PM

DtG
yes mate, which bearded 20 stone folkie do you know....other than dave winn...... who wears cloggs.
Patricia says "hiya"too.
PS    Swinton folk club is at the White Lion, Mondays, 8.30/9.00 till late....... Enjoy

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 12:39 AM

"...the Irish question is a social question, the whole age-long fight of the Irish people against their oppressors resolves itself, in the last analysis into a fight for the mastery of the means of life, the sources of production, in Ireland. Who would own and control the land? The people or the invaders; and if the invaders, which set of them -- the most recent swarm of land-thieves, or the sons of the thieves of a former generation? These were the bottom questions of Irish politics, and all other questions were valued or deprecated in the proportion to which they contributed to serve the interests of some of the factions who had already taken their stand in this fight around property interests."

James Connally

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 04:31 AM

Cheers Clogger:-) My best to Pat as well.

Divis. Time for you to do a little reading as well. I refer you to a line in the very first post in this thread. I am talking of today btw. Not in Oliver Cromwells time. We were trying to determine whether todays 'average Brit' was anti-Irish. It is already an undisputed fact that yesterdays was. If you are suggesting that all lands taken from the common people by the landed gentry is given back I agree with that as well. Tell you what though. It ain't going to happen in Ireland, England, Scotland or any other land in the world:-( Sorry to disillusion you.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:27 AM

I think that's one of the many confusing aspects of the nature of the Irish struggle.

I recall at the height of the struggles in the 70's there was a decent interview in NME with some activist or other and they seemed to be Marxists.

I guess this wouldn't have played very well to their American fans

Coupled with this, the Catholic Church has always been very anti communist citing its rough treatment behing the Iron Curtain, which was very much in place at the time.

And although I have been pulled up before for this by Irish people, the importance of the the Catholic church in the community in Ireland is very striking to most people visiting Ireland. I don't believe we English are a secular nation, spiritual illiterates as most people seem to think. but the presence of the church seems qualitatively different in Ireland.

Eventual victory for SF would surely mean the whole country with Catholic as the state religion.

pleae regard these as musings. I have no wish to offend anybody, and I know that whilst trying to discuss this on previous occasions, I have upset people quite unwittingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:33 AM

If we are to accept that terrorist organizations are the domain of the extremist. And their supporters the same, then it is probably wise to realise that the extremists will never see anyone elses point of view or reassess their own. This thread illustrates this point.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 11:56 AM

What a fabulous reaction! Excellent. The nice thing about the 'Irish' Irish is that they always react so predictably; smack their bottoms and they always bounce nicely.

I'm amused to hear that the English are 'jealous' of the Irish. That's a little like Chelsea being 'jealous' of Danby United isn't it? We just like to tease you that's all.

As for the English/Britsh thing: I am English first and British second. Until I heard of the absurd and childish way so many Scots and Welsh still hate English people for things done by unelected governments hundreds of years ago, I always supported Wales and Scotland against any country but England at sports, for example. We've been through a lot, including two world wars, together, and to think that Scots or Welsh are not closer to us than, for example, Latvians or Croatians is absurd. That's what being British means to me.

The Irish will have to get over the fact that we do not choose to define ourselves with references to obscure goings on in their soggy country. Ireland is really not very interesting at all, excwept to the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 03:07 PM

an intelligent person can take an interest in most things

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 03:53 PM

I could be wrong, Guest 08:33am but in this thread we seem to have convinced at least some of the people you may perceive as exteemists that the average Brit is not at all anti-Irish. It has also shown those of us who believed that all along that there was good reason for some people believing it was so. I agree that some will still continue to believe that and that is their perogative (sp?). We will also continue to see that there are some Brits that are anti-Irish and that the structure of 'Great Britain' by it's nature was to turn the English nation into a supremist state over our neighbours. I think it's very unfair to say that this thread illustrates your point when, to me at any rate, it seems to do the opposite. It has created a (mainly) civil and very productive dialogue between people with dis-similar points of view and brought those points of view closer together. If only all world politics could do the same:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:07 PM

I have been following this thread with interest and believe that you are right, Dave.

Like any divide and conquer strategy, the last thing the power elite want is for the working class of Britain to agree that they are all oppressed by those that own and control the means of production.

The fact is that the working class of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales have more similarities than differences. God help the upper classes if the middle and lower classes ever join forces. Better to keep them at each other's throats and emphasize religious differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

Ooh-Aah2 Glad you see you must have get your end off. Well folks you asked were are we anti Irish ? Well your answer is here before you. Does this gentleman speak for you or is he typical of what we on the outside see at your football matches ?

And as to ..
What a fabulous reaction! Excellent. The nice thing about the 'Irish' Irish is that they always react so predictably; smack their bottoms and they always bounce nicely.

Did a bit of smacking myself from the roof of Divis flats a couple of times Ooh Aah. But they never bounced back ! Maybe because they weren't Irish !

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:09 PM

there appears to be some sort of competition going for the most tasteless unpleasant remark.

there are some brilliant chatrooms on yahoo for people whose tastes run in this direction and there you can mix it with 14 year old kids from round the world in a sort of gross out olympics.

I just think mudcat is a classier joint, and you should both be ashamed of yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,John Prescott MP for Fractured Jaw
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:04 AM

Oahh and WLD, You have it in one, the English have always acted reasonably when confronted with yobs, of course we are lucky in dear old blighty we are free of such scum,although I had reason to put some manners on a poor imitation with a stiff left to the jaw.

Our football fans are renouned throughout Europe for fair play and exemplary behaviour, and our soldiers have also shown through the ages that they are models of disipline.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:44 AM

"Good man(?) stigweard. Thanks Tir - man will do fine :)

It seems as though this thread is beginning to decend into the sort of bilge you might expect from people whose ability to debate a point is limited by their capacity for cogent thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 05:22 AM

If someone starts an attack on me or my nation. Do expect a response. It becomes clearer by the post the attitude of the English vistors to this thread. At least there was a lighter note to be found is this line from a post, renouned throughout Europe ! I could not agree more.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 05:41 AM

no we aren't free of such scum in dear old blighty - but at least there was always mudcat where decency in ones relationships with other human beings was accorded some value

and if murder and racial insults from the faceless ones (oohahh and divis jim) are the subject of merriment - expect a resonse from me

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 06:46 AM

I think I may as well give up on this thread and request it's closure. Anyone object to that? Apart from a couple of children who may feel their ball has been taken away that is;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 09:36 AM

Good thread Dave - I think we got somewhere, with some good debate before the squabbling brats moved in.

It would be nice to to know if Tír Eoghain or any of the other useful contibutors have any final thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 10:24 AM

OK - Let's see if anyone would like to give sensible summaries.

Let it fall off the end if they don't or ask Joe to close it if we get nothing more than white noise;-)
Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 11:11 AM

MY conclusions are:-

1   A good look at myself never did me any harm, a good look at others however can be a bit scarey ;¬)

2   I dont think that I am any more anti- Irish,than anti any other ethnic group

3   I am Brittish and English and a Northerner..... and (I hope) a human being for all that

4   There are some in here who have dug their holes so deep they are unable to climb out

5   Violent conflict damages EVERYBODY involved

6   Swinton folk club is great

7   I MUST go there tonight (8.30)

8   Anyone not going there (without a note from your parent / guardian) is a........ (insert ireverant expletive here)

9   Mudcatting is annonimous, maybe we should have a badge or a funny handshake or something to let other 'catters know we are part of the group .................... ....or not?   8¬}