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BS: Are we anti-Irish?
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST,beachcomber Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:23 PM Keith A of Hertford, you write as though Anti-Irishness was a recently adopted attitude by many British people. The IRA atrocities to which you refer are all of the last 30 years or so, Anti Irish jibes and jokes have been a nasty feature of Media propaganda in your country for much, much longer than that. Long before Irish people dared to raise our heads against the British rulers we were the butt of "put downs" and slurs in order to establish an excuse for our "being civilised" by others. We are not merely discussing present day attitudes here , are we? We know now that racism is rife in Britain and , shamefully, is being fermented and fostered in Ireland too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 05 - 06:31 PM yeah yeah yeah...and the scots are mean and the welsh moan all the time. All these countries are equally 'guilty' of making jibes at their neighbours expense, ever spent an evening in a comedy club in Dublin? You'll hear plenty of banter about the english. Does hating the murderous thugs who called themselves the IRA make me anti Irish? No, just anti murderer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 08 Sep 05 - 08:45 PM Those would be brave words if you weren't hiding without a name, GUEST. As it stands, it's very easy to stir up trouble when you don't have to face the reprecussions. Please, I'd love to invite you to join us and choose a name, become part of the group so we can hold you accountable for your posts just as equally as you can hold us. Cheers! E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 05 - 03:35 AM Britain has welcomed over a million foreigners into our country just in the last trn years. They flock to this small island because it is the most tolerant and welcoming country in the world. As I said, in my experience there is no genuine anti Irishism here in spite of the IRA's killing spree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM Isn't the discussion much less fun without the Adams family contributing? Who's the Adams family Wolfgang ? Is it the Wehrmach Tsgefolge or the Reichswehr ? They are the only monsters we English know ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:17 AM Epona get over yourself. As someone who sympathises with the murdering thugs who's regulation garb was balaclavas and dark glasses, you should be the last person to have a problem with anonymity. As for them being bave words? I don't consider my opinion to be brave, just truthful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:41 AM At least we agree that your opinion isn't brave, GUEST. :) E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: freda underhill Date: 09 Sep 05 - 09:54 AM I have always hated this song (see below). It sneers, trivialises, ridicules, it's vicious - and I think answers the question "are we anti- Irish". it's still about. .................................................................... "Plastic Paddy" -Eric Bogle Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah Hup! dee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee diddle-ee dah He's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone There's plastic shamrocks everywhere, there's Guinness and green beer And a sign in gaelic above the bar which says "God Bless All Here" His guitar sounds like a wardrobe, and it's out of tune at that His singin' voice it ranges from a sharp to a flat He's just desecrated "The Holy Ground", ripped apart "Black Velvet Band" Sang some nights drunk and now he's sunk "The Irish Rover" with all hands 'Cause he's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone The publican's a proddy Scot by the name of McIntyre Who does not allow collections for the men behind the wire He's done awful things to "Molly Malone" and "The Farrows of Tralee" He's murdered "Carach Fergus" and poor old "Mother Machree" He's just thrashed his way through "Galway Bay" and "The Wild Irish Rose" and if he starts singing "Danny Boy", I'm gonna punch him in the nose! He's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone There's Aer Lingus posters everywhere showing pretty Irish scenes all peaceful and idyllic, and very bloody green! "When Irish Eyes are Smiling" and "The Mountains of Mourne" In a central Celtic chiché, the man has left no stone unturned 'Til he embarks upon the harp that once through terraced halls Accompanying himself on the Bodhrán, which takes a lot of courage 'Cause he's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs in a Plastic Paddy pub that they call The Blarny Stone Now he's just sung in his mother tongue, "The Ancient Irish Curse" and cleared the pub completely by the forty-second verse! 'Cause he's just a Plastic Paddy, singin' Plastic Paddy songs He's started singin' "Danny Boy", so it's time that I was gone and just one thought comes to my mind, as I stagger through the door Where are you when we need you, Christy Moore? Where are you when we need you, Christy Moore? ************* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:06 AM The problem with folks like GUEST and KeithA is that they take a small snapshot to justify their positions. You won't get an argument out of me about the killing of uninvolved citizenry. What you will get is me questioning what spawned that tactic. When one widens the perspective on the "murderous thugs" we find they are spawned by a British policy that robbed them of their rights, systematically deprived them of jobs, gerrymandered their voting districts so they couldn't even access the political system, terrorised their children, used "shoot to kill" orders, fired on and killed innocents who were using non violent tactics to cause change, etc, etc. Even today, while the "murderous thugs" try to go the way of peace, their children are harassed on the way to school, have balloons full of urine thrown at them, and on and on. Don't take any moral high ground with regard to deplorable action on behalf of your society, Keith. You just look foolish. Instead of trying to make sense of, or render judgements on, this ugly past, why not embrace what it takes to move ahead. The "murderous thugs" have. Why not castigate these loyalist unionist thugs who murder, maim, and do everything they can to destroy the prospect of peace. In the end result, it won't be the the IRA who brings peace. It will be the folks in the North from the Unionist side, and folks in Great Britain, who tell these "loyalist thugs" that enough is enough. I only hope they hurry. I don't know how much more can be tolerated before the fire ignites. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:25 AM Mick, I thought that Irish terrorism in England relevant to the question of what little anti Irishism there might be here. The cause of that violence did not seem relevant to this thread. Since you mention it though, I do not think that indiscriminate killing can be justified. If that is moral high ground, then I stand on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:26 AM Why are some people labouring under the false asumption that anyone who dares criticise the IRA is in full support of every other act of violence from 'the other side.' Despising the IRA tactics doesn't make someone a loyalist.It makes someone a humanitarian. The IRA made life difficult for evry Irish person who travelled or worked in any of the countries that they killed innocent people. The bad feeling against the Irish was directed at them , not the spotty hooded yobs who threw petrol bombs and ran home to tea with mam. Epona, to imply someones opinion is 'brave', infers they have something to fear. I haven't. My opinions don't scare me because they are not based on justifying killing kids. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM The fact is that you both are quick to point out the IRA actions, and conspicously avoid the actions of the SAS, the Northern Irish police force (whatever they call themselves now), and the loyalist thugs. You go immediately to the IRA. It wasn't me who introduced this into the conversation. My take on the various English and British peoples is that they are not anti Irish. I have met a fair number, and I find them friendly, and welcoming. I just point out the obvious inequity in your statements. I invite you to castigate all those that are trying to short circuit the peace process. I invite you to start a public campaign in Great Britain to support the peace process and publicly renounce those that try to end it. Then maybe you will be seen in the light that you wish to be seen in. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM The thread is about anti irish feeling in UK. Have you lived in either? Had the loyalist thugs blown up kids on the mainland then they would be responsible for some of the anti irish feeling that was heightened during the troubles.They didn't. That doesnt make them right or wrong. It is just a fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:47 AM When some of you mention Northern Ireland you always throw in the line about murdering children on the streets of Northern Ireland. Can you not leave the British Army out of this debate. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:52 AM I was referring to the murders of children on the mainland (as you well know), as that goes someway to explaining the anti irish feeling on the mainland. Which was the premise of this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Big Mick Date: 09 Sep 05 - 10:54 AM Fair enough, GUEST. I haven't lived in either. I will watching to see you make any comments about the US or any other country and quiz you as to what gives you the right to comment. The logic of your arguement is faulty. Leave the British Army out of the discussion? Elements within that organization have done as much as any other to foment the opinions on anti Irish issues. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:02 AM May I point out that Eric Bogle is a Scot-turned-Aussie and hence no longer British? Plus that his song is not anti-Irish, but anti shite music, which is accurately and wittily destroyed, as anyone who has groaned at the would be street-fightin' men who announces the 80th miserable version of the Fields of Athenry you've heard in the folk club in the last year. As I said, I'm not anti-Irish, but rather anti-'Irish'. Bogle's song sums up the latter pretty well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:05 AM The missing bit from my last post was 'can testify', of course. It's not just Eric Bogle either - that partiotic wannabe Irishman Spike Milligan wrote feelingly and accurately of 'that high nasal Irish tenor, known and hated the world over.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM And be very VERY grateful that I haven't even mentioned Riverdance or Enya yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM If you have nothing to fear, GUEST, again I invite you to join the Mudcat family as a member. As you see, sometimes we agree and sometimes we argue, but we always know who we are addressing. I place my name on my posts because I have nothing to hide and I have nothing to fear. I enjoy discussion with the family here. And since you are firm in your belief that you have nothing to fear, I'm sure you'll agree that placing your name on your posts instead of floating through the threads as a nameless GUEST would make the mudcattters consider your points more valid. We are all accountable for our posts when we post under our names. Look forward to having you as a member, GUEST. Keith, as the thread continues to stretch out, we've found ourselves addressing many issues and not just sticking with the immediate thread topic. I don't know if you've been following the thread or not, but sorry if we've caught you off guard. I can understand now why you didn't understand why we were asking about the causes of the IRA's campaign in England. I must say, though, that I am interested in hearing more about your experiences with events in England during the campaign. I've seen the news reels and newspaper articles on the events, and I'm not interested in the media's look at the situation during that time. I really like to hear the personal stories of people that lived through it and were effected by it. If you have any of those stories, love to have you share them with us so we can get a better feeling for your point of view. Thanks! E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:12 AM Fair enough, Ooh-Aah2 :). Point taken about Enya! Haha. Mick - I like you more and more. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:26 AM Thanks for the invitation epona. So, what are your experieneces of the anti irishism in the UK? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 11:55 AM The logic of your arguement is faulty. Mick I wasn't presenting an argument. I asked you because I was curious as to how much experience went into your opinion. We are all free to hold opinions on any number of topics, but those who have lived the situation can temper theirs with insight that is missing from those who have not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:23 PM GUEST, "Those who have lived the situation can temper theirs with insight that is missing from those who have not." You are absolutely correct. And these are the discussions I like to have! Just as I wrote to Keith, I would be really interested in the experiences you've had. Personal experience speak more than words in a paper, so it would be great if you would share them. :) E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:32 PM Epona, yes I am following the thread. I was not taken by surprise, but to discuss the roots of Irish terrorism would really require a new thread, and it has come up before a couple of times! We can't really hijack the thread to exchange our stories either. How about a PM? Keith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 12:44 PM PM is fine. But I think that many people following the thread would be interested to read about your experiences and the experiences of others in order to understand why our viewpoints are different. That is why many of us are here, to talk and to learn from each other. As far as a new thread to discuss the roots of Irish military action - that would indeed be an interesting one to be sure because there are very definite opinions about it! Haha...Dave the gnome won't mind, though, if we take this thread in that direction, would you Dave? He's busy with some Americans at the moment, but when he checks in with us, let's see if we can get his nod of approval :) E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:18 PM No experiences of anti irishism to share then? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:30 PM I'm sorry...I skipped over that post to the one after it! I don't consider the North of Ireland to be part of the UK, so as far as experiencing any anti-Irishisms in the UK, I wouldn't have that experience. Though, I do have two cousins that live in England (they're English-Americans) and because everyone considers them to be English, they hear the same thing we've been discussing here - the jokes, snide remarks and such about the damned Irish. When I spoke to them about Mudcat and this thread, they said, at least in England, if you asked someone if they were anti-Irish, they would respond with, "Absolutely not..." But the same people would the ones to say, "Did you hear that joke about the goat and the Paddy?" Their point to me was that we would be hard pressed to find people willingly to admit to anti-Irish feelings, but everyone has biases (whether to the Irish or to other people) even if they don't admit to it. Trying to get them on the 'cat to share, but they're not computer people, GUEST! I'll keep working on them, though. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM They will also have heard the same number of jokes about scots, welsh ad nauseum. It is some people's idea of humour. Not mine, but each to their own. And the saddest thing is the most derogatory jokes do not involve the irish, believe me. As I have previously said go to a comedy club in Dublin one night. As for finding it hard to get english people to admit their anti irishness, can't say I have ever noticed that. Those who are don't hide it, they are just in a minority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM "Those who are don't hide it, they are just in a minority." That was the point the girls were making, I think. The "British" that are vocal about being anti-Irish are the minority...and that everyone has their biases (against scots, welsh, british, etc) but nobody would classify themselves as anti anyone. I think that holds true pretty much the world over. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: KIMCHEE Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:46 PM Guest: You said, "Those who lived the situation can temper theirs with insight that is missing from those who have not." A lot of people have made choices, decisions, options to make, break, agree or disagree or even argue but until YOU have walked in another persons shoes how do you presume to know the size of their shoes. Why are you riding your high horse and whipping it unmercyfully - you can hate people for their beliefs, but they can never feel your hatred only you can feel it. Wake up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM Kimchee - Umm...am I getting this right? You're saying every opinion is valid because every experience brings with it a unique perception? If that is not what you are getting at, maybe you could explain further. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: KIMCHEE Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:00 PM Epona. You got it, you win the prize, go ahead of the class. At least you have the gumption and fortitude to say and believe what you have stated. Thank You!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:06 PM Okay, Kimchee. I'm not quite sure what to say to that. You're welcome, I guess. :) Haha. E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM And yet another contribution from someone who no doubt has never lived in the UK throughout the troubles. The hatred you percieve doesn't exist. And nearly 300 posts telling you that have still not convinced you. Why not hop on a ferry and come and see for yourselves? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: KIMCHEE Date: 09 Sep 05 - 02:19 PM Guest, in your reply, "contribution from someone who no doubt has never lived in the UK." My good person, I have lived in 5 different countries of the world including Afghanistan, I have been in Ireland, Scotland, England and I think the world of all people I have been associated and dealt with in my lifetime, I do not and will not hold grudges or hatred toward anyone. - again I say, WAKE UP!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 05 - 03:14 PM So I take it you never lived in the UK throughout the troubles. The debate originally concerned if and why their was/is anti irish feeling in the UK. Despite all the posts from people living in the UK to the contrary, it isn't good enough? Despite the many posts accepting that the anti irish feeling (held by a minority) stemmed from seeing our kids blown up, it isn't good enough. Those who are unhappy with the answers given should ask themselves why? If some want to percieve racism where it doesn't exist, they are trying to validate their own agenda. Meanwhile the Irish and English will continue to live very happily together over here. There will be racism directed at every nationality in our society by someone. It isn't exclusively set aside for the Irish in any country. Some of you seem to wish it were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:15 PM Just back from a grand tour of Northern England - Including the coast to coast Route 66:-) Didn't see any any-anyone even though we were Lancs in Yorks and Yanks in the Lakes! I think it has been long accepted that the normal inhabitants of these sceptred isles are not anti-Irish. What I was hoping to go on to was what was 'Britishness' and should the term Britain now be lost? What I find is some people behaving badly on MY thread;-) Now, now childer. Behave or I shall have to do something that you may not notice but sure as hell won't like... Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 09 Sep 05 - 06:52 PM Dave, you crack me up! Good to have you post again...:) E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Tiocfaidh Date: 11 Sep 05 - 11:23 PM Let's get one thing straight, Keith A... We had a legitimate Armed Struggle against your Establishment that gained in popular support from 1969 onwards. What's this 'Irish Terrorism' nonesense? To gain a certain perspective of who the 'bad guy' actually is in any given situation, you have to be open to the grieviences of the parties involved. One can disapprove of one's own Governments' actions, without actually feeling any sympathy for the cause of the aggrieved. Violence then becomes a resort where only our leaders are allowed to visit. Nowadays it doesn't even have to be the last one. But if you are on the receiving end of State Sponsored Terrorism, your definition of 'murdering thugs' doesn't automatically skip a step The British Army are murdering thugs; always have been, always will be, (unless things change... which I doubt...) Dresden, Belfast, Derry, Craigavon... You name it, they've been murdering thugs there. That was the reason to take the war to the British Those that support the actions of 'their boys' (... and let's not forget that they shoot the women first...) are 'anti' whatever it is their 'boys & girls' are fighting; Sunni insurgency, Shia extremists, IRA terrorists. You say you are against the IRA and not the Irish But that's exactly like saying that you like us... as long as we don't complain about our situation. There could be a lot more to my original contention that the average Brit is anti-Irish Dave. Interesting how the mice play, though, isn't it |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:33 AM Let's get one thing straight. Throwing a bomb into a crowded pub without warning is terrorism. I don't stop liking Irish people when they complain about their situation. Their grievances are legitimate and genuine. I do stop liking them when they plant bombs or shoot people. Make no mistake, your "Armed Struggle" set back the noble cause of a United Ireland by at least 20 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:10 AM Re the British Army, if Dresden makes them murdering thugs, the US army will have to be included in your definition. The British Army, contrary to your remarks, is respected world wide for its professionalism and restraint, though like any group it has a proportion evildoers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:24 AM An estimated 350,000 Irish volunteers (north and south) joined the British army in both world wars. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM I doubt they are respected throughout the world Sir. They have a record second to none for their murder of the innocent over the centuries.Always depended on Americans to do their fighting as I recall only too well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: Divis Sweeney Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:19 PM That's true...Americans do a lot of fighting for the British ;) E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:10 PM "Make no mistake, your "Armed Struggle" set back the noble cause of a United Ireland by at least 20 years." Stuff and nonesense, Keith. You would still be singing 'We Shall Overcome' on our behalf. in your folk clubs of an evening. And we'd still be getting shot and burned out of our homes Your Government never listened to us!!! Can you either not read, or not remember? That's why the IRA started the Campaign in England; giving you fair enough warnings to clear places that weren't totally military targets. A United Ireland is a lot closer than you think, Keith. The GFA was signed on the back of the IRA ceasefire. Had there been no Armed Struggle, there would have been no ceasefire, and there would have been no GFA Whereabouts in that timeline is there proof of the effectiveness of non-violent protest? Anti-Irishness is so ingrained in some of your psyches that you don't even realise it. If you believe we did not have a legitimate cause because of what your country did to us in your name, well then you do perpetuate the myth that your precious 'Britishness' draws it's lifeblood from. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:32 PM That's why the IRA started the Campaign in England; giving you fair enough warnings to clear places that weren't totally military targets. Blatant lie number one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:36 PM suffer little children. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:40 PM Yeah, well we love our children too, remember... Glad your occupation force is getting out. The whole point, really. Warrington got a warning. How your Government explains that to you has nothing whatsoever got to do with us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish? From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:51 PM The PIRA, with a steady supply of arms and money from sympathisers in the Republic of Ireland, USA and elsewhere, continued to target security forces and economic targets, increasing its campaign on mainland Britain. The bombing campaign of 1974 included attacks on pubs in Birmingham, Guildford and Woolwich in which |
