BS: Are we anti-Irish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:21 AM

I wasn't refering to hate in this thread. There doesn't seem to be any and I'm realy pleased at the response and clever argument here:-) It's the hate the killers on both sides must feel to enable them to perform these acts. It's odd realy - if they would but talk like we do here I think the problems would have been resolved in days rather than years!

Anyway. Off to the Yorkshire Dales now. Callin a tea shop in Hawes. Maybe a pub in Swaledale. Visit the waterfall and gorge in Malham. It's a tough life...

Cheers

DtG

350 btw:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:26 AM

Damn you and your number stealing ways, stig;-)

You hate the English accents and food dianavan? Which accent is that? Cornwall? Lancashire? Newcastle? And which food? Roast beef and Yorkshire pud? Cumberland sausage? Balti Chickin? Tell you what. Stick to McDonalds and homogenised accents and I'll stick with what I like:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:49 AM

Sorry Dave! Had I known, I would have waited a few minutes . . . :)

Have a nice time in the dales. Keep away from that awful Yorkshire accent and make sure you don't partake of any of those unpalateable oatcakes, or those terrible Whitby smoked kippers or fine English ale that is produced there. Probably an idea to try some Becks or Coors (or luvverly tradtional Carling) with your Kentucky Fried Chicken.

stigWeard

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:57 AM

We get on OK with most Clogger, that is quite true.

The only ones we have a problem with are those who will randomly murder and maim people using methods like bombing pubs and those who see such action as part of a glorious armed struggle.

It's not. Those that do it are no different to the people who carried out 9/11 or the people who more recently bombed London. They too see thier actions as part of a glorious struggle against injustices in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:51 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:11 AM

"well where do I start?"
Firstly my good lady's family come from south wales, my mothers side from llanfairgwinwill,my daughter (and grand daughter) are in carlisle........ OK that one is still in england...just!          But I do get out to see them
Secondly the point I was trying to make was that if we look back we can pick a (justifiable) arguement with just about any race on the plannet! We dont do that, we move on and accept or we curl in on ourselves and stop evolving socialy. Lets just celebrate the good and laugh at the bad.
Here endeth the lecture on social engineering!
I think I will just celebrate some "Black Sheep" now, CHEERS!

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:57 PM

You're right, Stigweard, but lets face it; if the food and the accents of the English people are the only thing I hate about them, it aint much and certainly nothing to lose sleep over.

... I am, however, sick and tired of having English and American culture regarded as the yardstick of civilization.   

BTW, I don't eat McDonalds and never have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 03:54 AM

Come and visit us to get a taste of the real England, Dianavan. As I am now an experienced tour guide I can show you round and I charge very reasonable rates;-)

Since when did a thread on anti-Irish-ness become an opportunity to knock the English though? I am off to Derbyshire in a few mins but would anyone care to see how many derogatory statements have been made about the English and how many have been made about the Irish? I guess it is a lot more. If I am right does that tell us anything..?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:03 AM

Does this call for a new thread?

Are We Anti-English?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:30 PM

I'm anti-British...Should we again define what British means? Haha!!!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 03:46 AM

Ha Ha!

(but would you laugh if one of us made the obverse repost?)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:09 AM

"I'm anti-British...Should we again define what British means?"

No, but let's define what anti-british means. What are you anti exactly Epona?

The place? The Scots, Welsh or English? The establishment?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:31 AM

Calm down she's a kid who has never travelled.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:31 AM

I want to make it clear that I consider the Catholics to have been in the right all along in this struggle. What I object to on this thread is those who seem to think that no progress could have been made without taking up arms and murdering civilians. What bullshit! Gandhi got the British out of an entire subcontinent by using non-violent direct action in, what, about 40 years. The Irish haven't got the British out of one little soggy country in 700 or more using violence. Now the Protestant morons are the ones using violence, surprise surprise, they are the ones dephicted negatively in the world media, not the IRA who are shown as former bad boys who have finally seen the light.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:49 AM

Likewise the US Civil Rights movement.
Suppose Martin Luther King had asked Martin McGuinness for advice on what to do.
He would have been told to start killing police officers,young soldiers and Nat. Guardsmen, and explode bombs in Malls.
And 30 years later where would they be?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:16 AM

Consider the racism faced by black people in Britain in the 1950s. We've a long, long way to go, but a person holding a public position today will immediately loose their job if they are caught making racist comments. Huge progress has been made with not an M-16 or nail-bomb in sight. I get the real feeling that for some macho Irish wannabe streetfitin' men, peaceful methods are just not glamerous enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:10 AM

British meaning (if I can use your definition Tirghra!) Used by "one who sticks to the remnants of British Imperialism".

Not anti-Scottish, Welsh, or English. I don't apply the term hate lightly, and I think we would all agree that there are good and bad people in every society, in every culture. But, if we pull the conversation back to the where we had been going before as far as defining how different people use and understand the term "British" then maybe you will understand my "inflammatory" statement. :)

And Keith, I would laugh if you made a statement along the same lines because I like you. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't laugh :).

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:18 AM

Thank you for that Empona.
Likewise.
Re the definition though, only being 55 years old, I have never met one of those.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:27 AM

So the American negro is equal now, Keith?

FACT IS the Armed Struggle worked; whatever about Ghandi, and all the rest... the Armed Struggle worked, and there is absolutely no evidence to prove that it otherwise!

"Since when did a thread on anti-Irish-ness become an opportunity to knock the English though"

Exactly, Dave. That is one thing we are not trying to do.
What we are trying to is to get folks to examine the importance of being 'British'

And why...

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:50 AM

post hoc ergo propter hoc

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:09 AM

Sequences don't establish a probability of causality any more than correlations do, Wolfgang.

The history is written.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:14 AM

"What we are trying to is to get folks to examine the importance of being 'British'"

Hmmm, not sure about importance Tir . . .

But we have examined that to a large degree in this thread. Many people who live on the Island of Britain do not consider themselves British. I have a feeling this might be weighted somewhat by the type of forum we all frequent.

Folk musicians will have a strong feel of their national identies as they are directly engaged in their cultures (which means I should be Irish, as that is what I mainly play), whereas the average citizen may well consider themselves British. Look at how many were waving the accursed Union Flag at cricket the other day when England were playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM

My spelling is crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:42 AM

"Look at how many were waving the accursed Union Flag at cricket the other day when England were playing"

Exactly my point, stigweard.

The forum is populated as you say, and in my opinion you give an accurate reading of its make-up.

We should, then be able to discuss the contention that Tiocfaidh and ourselves proclaim, with that open-ness that folk musicians and aficionados generally have.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:47 AM

Not a fact tir eoghain, just your opinion.
How can you say that no other sequence of events could possibly happen?
The FACT that in parallel situations, violence was shown not to be the answer is strong evidence that your opinion is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:52 AM

No other sequence of events did happen, Keith.

There is no conjecture here.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:03 PM

Sadly no Tir.
The self appointed men of violence decided for all that violence was the chosen solution, and they would not be stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:13 PM

Holy God, Keith, where do you get your information from?

These 'self-appointed men' are the biggest Nationalist party in the north, long before de-commissioning.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 12:39 PM

Ahh Keith nothing is ever quite that simple. Using the analogy that you made concerning the African American situation and maybe this becomes another thread on civil rights. America has not been occupied by a foriegn army since the war of independance. There have not been Army bases built in African American neighbourhoods to monitor people on a daily basis. African American people are/were not subjected to intimidation, house searches and internment without charge by armed forces. There has not to my knowledge been a shoot to kill policy targeting African Americans by police or army. African American civil rights marchers were not murdered in numbers by soldiers of a foriegn army. The murder of catholics by the British army was the catalyst for the armed struggle. You see Keith we tried Martin Luther King's approach and you know as well as any where that got us. With no one to protect us and the world seeming not to care the armed struggle was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:09 PM

Just to add slightly to that, it's important to realize also that it wasn't just the British army that these men and women faced, but other forms of armed oppression: RUC and loyalist paramilitiaries. There are so many pieces to the puzzle that there is no world of black and white here, but a vast expanse of gray. Peaceful protests by the Republican and Catholic communities were and still are being launched. We know how many of them ended, sadly: with violence against the peaceful marchers. So, Den is correct about the attempts then and now of those seeking means outside of violence in order to impact the political process and improve the lives of those oppressed.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 02:34 PM

Tir,
The Provos had no mandate at all to take up arms. they took it on themselves.
Den,
The African American community in the Southern States were dominated by a wholly white and hostile police force and white National Guard and State Troopers were on call when needed. In almost every way their situation was worse than the Nationalists of NI.
There was no sense of a British Army of occupation before the "armed struggle" and the current withdrawal follows the cease fire that could have been called at long ago.
Epona,
The African Americans of the South were also on the receiving end of violence from elements in the white community. Their demonstrations also were often met with lethal violence from the KKK and other vigilante groups who were often in league with police and State Troopers.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:00 PM

Keith it appears to me that you know very little about the plight of catholics in the north of Ireland. Just substitute wholly white and hostile police force for wholly protestant and hostile polce force, protestant B-Specials later Ulster Defence Regiment can be substituted for National Guard and State Troopers and then the British Army. How many African Americans were murdered by Security forces? How many Irish catholics were murdered by Security Forces? Not only security forces. How can we forget the Shankill Butchers who killed catholics for entertainment. Then we had the FRU a terrorist organization that comprised British soldiers and double agents who were involved in the murder of numerous innocent catholics and even members of the security forces. How on earth can you make a statement like, "In almost every way their situation was worse than the Nationalists of NI."

Every civil rights march in N. Ireland ended in violence. With the marchers beaten and clubbed by the police, had stones bottles and bricks thrown at them by loyalists and gassed by the British Army. I know because it happened to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Cloger
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:06 PM

This thread seems to be predominantly side taking in an arguement over who (if) anyone was/ is right.
The quesion is "are we anti - Irish"?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Den
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:37 PM

Again from personal experience I would have to say there is a perception of underlying resentment towards the Irish. I have travelled many times from Canada to Belfast through Heathrow and/or Gatwick and in almost every instance I was held and questioned by CID officers. They were usually content in holding me till they were sure I'd missed my connecting flight to Belfast. An inconvenience I'm sure that they found amusing. They even once, separated me from my wife and child on our first visit as a family to the country. My wife was left wondering what was going on as I was lead away by two plain clothes guys. No explainations were given. They wouldn't even let me reasure my family. My wife and child were in tears and near hysterics when I finally returned to them at the Belfast terminal.

I remember well one night in a pub in Nottingham when this anti-Irish bigotry reared its ugly head. I was there visiting a friend. I had my guitar with me and as the evening wore on I was asked by some people we were sitting with (friends of my friend) if I would play an Irish tune. I said I would. I was part way through "The Cliffs of Doonen", when this guy who was sitting with his mates at another table said, "if you don't shut that Irish shit I'll come over there and stick that fucking guitar up your arse." I let him know that I was ready when he was. To my surprise the barman came over to our table and asked me to leave. So there you go.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 05:53 PM

Gerry Fitt experienced those early demonstrations and was himself injured in one, so you can't just dismiss the idea as the ranting of an ill informed English school teacher.
Passionate Nationalist that he was he knew that the men of violence were setting back the cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:01 PM

from 1991 to 2001 494,850 emigrants from the republic of Ireland left for the mainland of Britain and were accepted. What more do you want of the Brits? No other country could match these figures.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,beachcomber
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:11 PM

Yes, it is indeed all too obvious (having joined this thread again after several days leave) that so many well intentioned English posters (perhaps many even "British") have no real understanding of the underlying reasons for the centuries old animosity toward them from so many Irish people.
Of course our educational systems approach the whole topic of British Rule versus Irish Nationalism from diametrically opposing points.
It does not score any points for people to talk of bombs on High Streets of Britain, placed by IRA men. What is the difference between those and the ones "placed" by British Forces in all their many wars ?, the fact that some were dropped from many thousands of feet higher up?
You can say all you like about the differing reasons for detonating such devices but , the end result is the same. The death of innocent non-combatants, sometimes in their thousands. Very few Irish people now want any continuation of a shooting/bombing campaign by the IRA in any of it's guises but it is not helpful to suggest that either side have gained any victory. Not yet anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:18 PM

It does not score any points for people to talk of bombs on High Streets of Britain, placed by IRA men.

It helps explain why there was some anti irish feeling on the mainland.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:41 PM

"It helps explain why there was some anti irish feeling on the mainland."

How do you explain the anti-Irish feeling before that, GUEST?

Keith..., the mandate grew; the Provos were protecting the communities, remember, and with the unwillingness of the State to clamp down on joyriders, grandmother-rapists, heroin dealers, and the rest, they were quite happy to let the community deal with their own.

I see no anti-Englishness on this thread.

Anti-Irishness for sure, and it seems to be getting worse

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 06:44 PM

Well, so we're moving along...At least Guest has admitted that there is indeed anti-Irish sentiment among the English population.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:52 PM

There are probably all sorts of sentiments within the English population just as there are probably different sentiments within the Irish population. The only difficulty I see there is when people try to do a lump all because of one view.

The biggest problem of all comes in (assuming one finds the killing of another person nice anyway - some of us don't even like war) in when you have the random attacks where nobody knows what anybody who gets killed or maimed stands for but are just defined as enemies for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even a kid who has not yet learned to form thier own opions of life could get get killed by actions that Tir Eighoin will defend with lines like

Your Governments could not protect your citizens, however; hardly the fault of the IRA."

Hardly the fault of those who carried out 9/11 that the US government could not protect its citizens either, is it? And let's face facts, some of those killed could have been against US government activities - the very ones they got blown up for..

Damage limitation, because you know the injustices served upon us, and that if the same thing was to have happened the English, your people would have reacted just the same.... like, for instance if DeValera hadn't had locked up all those Germans during WWII, and Germany did manage to invade, your 'Resistance Army' would have been an honourable concept, would it not?

But that's not the parallel. While I don't doubt there would be English element who would do this, the question to me would be more one of whether or not I would sanction a random pub bombing of civilian people in Germany - I mean they are all Germans aren't they - must have done something wrong...

The justifications people like Tir E... base on only work if you live your life by his standards. Those standards do not allow for the simple honest belief "huh - this is plain wrong whoever does it".

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:19 PM

"...would be more one of whether or not I would sanction a random pub bombing of civilian people in Germany"

You're joking, aren't you?
How many civilians were killed in Germany by the British during WWII?

I don't think Tír Eoghain's 'standards' are any different from the rest of us, here. I know that for my part if a Government is prepared to kill innocent civilians like the British one did in my Country, they had better make sure their own system of security is operational.

I don't think the people of England, Scotland, and Wales are fully aware of the dirty tricks of their own Governments down through the years; both in Ireland and in England.

This is all part and parcel of this 'Britishness' that we keep referring to. There is too much false Nationalism in England, and it stunts the development.

The reason we know all this is because we have experience of the rottenness of of it all.

We can tell you that 'British Nationalism' (a contradiction in terms, incidentally... as there is no such thing as a British nation) is an ethereality that you, (the English, Scots and Welsh) have been spoonfed over the years to give you a bigger sense of self-importance in the wider scheme of things.

We've seen it; we know it.
And the average non-thinker of you, doesn't even want to discuss the subject.

The longer this thread goes on, and the more some of you evade the issue, the better our point is proven.

There is confusion among the English, Scots & Welsh (not necessarily of their own making, mind you), as to who they are, and what this 'Nation' of theirs stands for.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:41 PM

So they hate the english, the scottish, the welsh, anyone called mc cartney, orange men and everyone who deplored the IRA's cowardly tactics. Some folk thrive on hate don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:54 PM

Dunno guest above.

Without bothering to answer the above Tir (C) there is much that has gone on that I can not agree with and would hope (and believe) woould have remained true to my own beliefs regardless of nation, provocation, etc.

But.

I don't think the people of England, Scotland, and Wales are fully aware of the dirty tricks of their own Governments down through the years; both in Ireland and in England.

I could not argue against that.

Probably the biggest crime (outside being misled) that we English have had is apathy in terms of not looking furter and not asking further. While I would hardly feel that crime sufficient enough to get blown to bits in a pub over, we perhaps have not listened strongly enough to the Irish case?

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 05:47 AM

I don't know if individual examples prove that there an overall anti-Irish feeling in England. It does indeed prove that some people are anti-Irish and, unfortunately, that does include some people in positions of responsibility but if we rely on these examples alone we can prove many things. That the Irish are anti-English - For examples see above. That the Americans are anti-English. Ditto. That the English are anti-American. Look through other threads. That the Mudcat is anti-Semetic. See Martin Gibson;-)

I have cited my own experience but that does not let me draw the conclusion that the English or American peoples are anti-Polish. At least I don't think so. What I thought we were examining and what I thought we had already concluded was that the people here on the mainland are generaly not anti-Irish. However the British establishment does show a significant bias against the Irish people and I will be the first to agree that is the case. I don't think there was ever any doubt of this fact.

Going right back to basics though remember that this thread was created to argue against a premise that 'the average Brit' was anti-Irish. I don't think that anyone here will agree that the average Joe Bloggs living on the mainland is anti-Irish. What I thought we had moved on to was what constitutes 'the average Brit'. Is it the ordinary person? I think not. Or is it the standard supporter of the establishment - Such as the customs officer or the squadie? Possibly so but with mitigation. Is it then the people who make the rules for the exise man and the private to follow? I think we are now heading in the right direction.

But is this the average Brit? I would not have thought so myself and would like to distance myself from these people. It is 'them' and us. Always has been . These people, whoever they are, are not only anti-Irish but anti working class. Anti semitic. Anti Black. They are the incidious workings of an establishment that has lumbered on for so long it will take decades to change. We need to weed them out of positions of power and replace them with ordinary people like you and I who have compassion and can see that injustice is not the right way. Trouble is, when we get in power, will we become like them?

If I am right in my conclusions can we get the thread back on track please?

Cheers

Dave the Gnome
Who's visitors go home tomorrow:-( and is spending a relaxing day at home:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 07:43 AM

"And the average non-thinker of you, doesn't even want to discuss the subject."

Perhaps we have more in common than you realise Tir C, playing to the stereotype is in part what this thread is all about, and your post is more than a little patronising.

There is a deep and dark disquiet in the soul of the English people. They see the strength of the cultural identities of the other nations of the Isles and perhaps feel a tad envious along, with a palpable feeling of guilt for event of the past for which they feel responsible as a society. The English flag has been hijacked by football hooligans, right-wing louts and chav culture, all of which are negative expressions of national identity. The lack of understanding of the history of the Isles in England, and the role that various monarchs, the commonwealth and Empire have played is evidence of this guilt manifesting itself within the English education system, and of course it goes much deeper than that.

The English are losing their cultural identities in ways the Irish, Welsh and Scots are not. They are unsure of whether they are 'British' or 'English' and their notion of English culture is vague at best. This loss, as anyone who has lost or had their culture suppressed (the Irish know this) has a profound effect on how people perceive themselves as a society. We are slowly drowning a sludge of Americana and pseudo-britishness, letting multinational-owned media and Westminster dictate our cultural agenda whilst (as you say Tir C) keeping the people in ignorance and a sort of perpetual cultural limbo that the Welsh and Scots have thankfully been delivered from with devolution.

Looking around the towns and cities of England in 2005 it is painfully obvious the price is being paid for this lack of self-esteem. The nation is seemingly directionless and morally adrift. The famous binge-drinking culture, lack of respect for people and property as well as a ubiquitous denial of our own music, literature and dance in the mainstream media are all symptomatic of a people at a loss to define themselves as a nation. This has created a cultural ghetto of mediocrity and half-knowledge where the values of our traditional rural society are consigned to the dustbin of history.

You may think this is well deserved, in which case fill your boots and enjoy as I am sure things will get worse before they get better. In some respects, the healing has already begun beyond the borders as the NI peace process moves forward and devolution for Scotland and Wales begins to work. How long it will be before this filters through to the collective consciousness I have no idea - it is conceivable it never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 08:43 AM

397

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Stu
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:20 AM

dum de dum de dum . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:28 AM

399 is the new 400.

Subject: RE: BS: Are we anti-Irish?
From: GUEST,Khatt
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

400...??..