BS: Where's the Global Warming

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM

Furthermore the ebb and flow of climate has been carefully plotted. What is happening now, and has been since the beginning of the 20th century, a complete break-away climbing trend fart above the climatic oscillation band in both carbon content of the atmosphere, measured precisely since the late 1950's thanks to Roger Revelle, and average temperature ranges.

2005 was, overall, the hottest year ever. Parts of India experienced 120-degree heat. Obviously steatements like this are generalized and abstracted -- they cannot be precise except as avaerages. But that does not make them unscientific.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:08 AM

Obie:

They know it for practical purposes because of analyzing ice-core segments that go back 65,000 years. Which in terms of human comparative history is "ever".


A

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:53 AM

I make no denial that Earth is warming up because that is likely true. I also believe that it will have some catastrophic effects that we have to deal with. I agree that we pollute our world and we must make every effort to stop doing so.
When I read in the promo for An Inconvenient Truth that 2005 was "the worst year ever" I ask myself "How do they know that?" Ever is a very long time and climate ebbs and flows. It is not good science to gain attention with unscientific statements like that, and it casts doubt on follow-up theories. Our way of life is in trouble because we try to control nature rather than flowing with it. If the seas rise we must move. If drought causes starvation then populations will be reduced to a sustainable level. Some other areas will see improvements and some wasteland will become fertile. We now waste huge amounts of water creating golf courses in the desert, and are building more every day. Soon we may need that water to grow food so don't buy a new set of clubs just now.
          Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:03 PM

No. Now, there is a lot we can do about it right now, individual by individual, city by city, state by state.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:59 PM

Some suggestions here


A

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:55 PM

"Now what are we going to do about it? .."

why, turn up the AC and open the doors, of course!

Sadly, if the situation--natural OR man-made-- has gotten out of hand, the only thing we can do that makes sense is to gradually reduce the population over the next few generations so that the areas that are still tolerable to live in are not impossibly overcrowded.

Move over, you folks in Canada, Siberia, Finland...company's coming!

(I sure would like to be mistaken....I'd LOVE to look down from above in 100-200 years and see that it didn't get too bad....but....)

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:44 PM

From a recent column by Ben Bova in Naples FL -- Bova was the editor of OMNI science mag for many years:

"nd now the bad news.

Global warming is real. Even the White House now admits it.

For years there's been a discrepancy between temperature measurements made on the surface of Earth and measurements made by satellites of the temperatures in the lower portion of the our planet's atmosphere.

The surface measurements showed that the global temperature is steadily rising. The satellite measurements didn't agree.

This led some scientists to downgrade or even dismiss completely the widespread fears of global warming. And such doubts by reputable scientists led others to believe that global warming is a sham perpetrated by Third World collectivists who want to cripple the industrialized world's economy.

The Bush White House was openly skeptical of global warming, although not entirely dismissive.

The Bush Administration commissioned a wide range of studies to examine the issue of global climate change. The first of these studies, released by the Climate Change Science Program, has resolved the discrepancies between surface and satellite measurements.

Thomas Karl, of the National Climatic Data Center in North Carolina, was chief editor of the report. He stated that a key element of the study was bringing together the scientists who disagreed about the temperature measurements and having them iron out their differences face-to-face.

The result? The scientists found subtle errors in earlier analyses and, once these were taken into account, the surface and satellite measurements agreed.

Global warming is real.

Now what are we going to do about it? ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:28 PM

Go see the movie "An Inconvenient Truth". It will show you the details, the pictures, the numbers, the trends and the projections.

Just go see it. THEN quibble.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:02 PM

Global Warming: It either is or isn't a reality. Either way, it is still prudent to

STOP POLLUTING THIS PLANET

Thank you for reading. We now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:56 PM

" To believe every "Chicken Little" who cries "the sky is falling" is also the folly of fools,"

the point is, if a Chicken Little runs by squawking, it is prudent to at least look UP! Then, go spend a teeny bit of time asking the experts who just may have been where Chicken Little got his information.

This is not a rumor, nor is it a scare tactic...it is a deduction based on many, many factors.

Oh..Obie...".. the scientific lie is to foster a belief that we can really prevent things like polar melting. " ....the important point is whether we are exacerbating the natural processes, and by how much. You don't say how you got the info that 'we can't do much about it'.

Like I said before, and may say again until you are sick of hearing me say it, in matters like this, we need to err on the side of caution!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:56 PM

Also, as Jon Stewart has pointed out, since Norway has loosened its rules about marriage, it's only getting 6 months of sunshine per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:45 PM

Gosh, Andy, I would have agreed with you last week. It was quite cool here! But....today it's as hot as hell here, and a good deal more humid!

I guess global warming must be real after all, eh, Andy?

But what if it gets cool again? Then what?

It's all so confusing for those tiny minds out there...

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:39 PM

Well, that clinches it, Andy--global warming is definitely a myth. Your scientific study has proven that it is. Thanks for all your hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:52 AM

I almost had to turn on the AC yesterday. First time as long as I can remember not using AC this late in the year.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:21 AM

Nice rant, Obie. It's accurate in parts

If polar bears were to become extinct because of melting ice flows they would follow woolly mamoths that became extinct because of an earlier global warming.

Climate change alone wasn't sufficient to kill off the Mammoth, and several other large animal species. They had suvived similar changes between glacial and interglacial periods during the Quaternary( the last 2 million years).
The extra factor at the end of the last Glacial was people hunting them. There have been houses built of mammoth bones found in Eastern Europe, and mammoth skeletons with flint arrowheads in them found in the US. Where it took longer for people to get to them, the mammoths lasted longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:37 AM

Mankind and his activities are like a pimple on the Earth's arse. It may cause pain but other factors beyond his control cause greater health risks. Global warming is a natural cycle and human actions only play a small part in increasing its effect. The inverse being also true there is little that mankind can do to make any impact on this cycle to prevent warming up of Earth. That is not to say that we should not do what we can, but the scientific lie is to foster a belief that we can really prevent things like polar melting. Man is by nature a nomad who would change location with changing climate. Instead we build huge buildings on floodplains protected by earthen dams and expect nature to abide by our wishes. National but artificial borders prevent migration to more desireable areas and there are just too damn many of us in any case. If polar bears were to become extinct because of melting ice flows they would follow woolly mamoths that became extinct because of an earlier global warming.
We have changed from a species that goes with the flow of nature to one who stands in opposition, and that is the folly of fools. To believe every "Chicken Little" who cries "the sky is falling" is also the folly of fools, so I guess we are between that rock and a hard place.
         Obie

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:55 PM

Al Gore probably isn't aware of your dislike of him, Doug. What can we do about that, I wonder? ;-)

I mean, hey, if he WAS aware of your opinion of him, he'd probably experience something akin to a revelation. He'd give up on all this "global warming" foolishness and admit he'd been wrong about everything else too. Wouldn't that be wonderful???

Hmmm. How are we going to make Al Gore aware of Doug's opinion? How?

Maybe we should see if we can get DougR to appear as a special guest on CNN or Larry King Live. Yeah, that'd probably do it. LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:46 PM

Yes, it is Bush's fault. Most of it is caused, though, by wind escaping from the mouth and rear of Al Gore.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

people like 'guest' Andy appall me with stupid (yes, STUPID..) insights like "it was cool this weekend.." etc.

Yeah...it's cooler right now where I am than usual for this time of year, but anyone with any sense will realize that temporary local variations are irrelevant in the global average.

Anyone who doubts....go READ...go LISTEN...to the ones who are seriously doing the field work and collecting the data!!!! We have problems, guys....you WILL believe in a few years, and then you'll pretend that "no one really warned me", and you'll complain that "no one did anything about it"....and YOU are the ones re-electing the idiots who refuse to do anything about it, and who are buying the SUVs and who are cutting down fields & forests for more malls and highways......

   .....and yes, you are the ones who refuse to see the danger of overpopulation that casts the big shadow over ALL the other problems.

Go on...keep denying and avoiding and pretending; maybe you'll get thru your miserable lives before the worst begins to sink in...but your kids and grand kids will ask why you hid your head in the sand!

Who, me? Cynical? naaawwwww...

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 06:22 PM

And just in case Guest Andy checks back, the mass extinction at the end of the Cretaceous which corresponds with the Yutacan impact probably took in the order of a million years.
What is currently accepted by most of the scientific community now is that the main cause of this extinction was huge volcanic eruptions in India, that formed the flood basalts know as the Deccan Traps. The meteor impact was just the icing on the cake.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 06:18 PM

Sorry Wolfgang, I have far more than "a little bit of knowledge" on the subject of Earth's history.

You are right, we have not yet wiped out 90% of species. Yet we have lost about 2/3 of species on the planet in just the last 150 years. Is the trend slowing? The extrapolation is quite easy.

For a specific example, we have lost 70% of Earth's living coral in the last decade. Again, is it slowing? What does extrapolation tell you?

Another - globally, 90% of large predatory fish have disappeared in the last hundred 50 years (not solely the result of global warming..overfishing is hugely involved, but if you're a large predatory fish, do you care?)

Another - again globally, 30% of amphibians are on the brink of extinction -- in some rainforests, 2/3 of frog species are already gone. Is this slowing? Is there a logical, sensical extrapolation to be made?

On a geologic time scale, ten years -- hell even 150 years -- is no time whatsoever. Not long ago, claiming that a mass extinction, or any big event, happened in anything less than a million years got you labelled a "catastrophist". Ten to 150 years certainly seems like a catastrophe to little old nonsensical me. And while I do now the difference between an upper limit and a mean (in fact I know the difference between mean, average, median, and mode as well!), it's a pedantic distinction at best in this case, and exactly the type of argument that climate change deniers (and creationists, and other anti-science people) use to discredit the opposition -- seize upon a small side issue where you sense weakness, and argue it as if it is the main point. I have never considered you to be one of these, and I hope you are not.

Time will certainly tell whether I am "outrageously wrong". If I am I will be happy (and alive) and will apologize to you (and everyone) for being alarmist. If I'm right, we might neither (none?) of us be here for the "I told you so's".

And you are correct, lies do not help a case. In fact, lies are what are keeping us from doing the right thing now for our children and grandchildren (and perhaps all future progeny).

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:56 PM

There's a difference between what caused former mass extinctions & what's causing one now!
There is also a thinning layer of the top cold water layers that lie beneath polar ice. If or when these layer thins to far then the warmer bottom layers of water will slowly melt more ice (there's a cycle starting here) which will also cause changes in the gulf stream. Why can't we agree it's just to risky to leave it all up to chance, because that's the best we're doing since we're not listening to science. By the time more studies conclude no more than the past studies (the out come depends on who's doing the study & who's paying for it) will all be in the grave.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:31 PM

We are, in fact, in the midlle of the greatest and fastest mass extinction in the history of the planet. And here's a statement that will make the apologists howl, but... No reputable scientist disagrees with this. (TIA)

You are one of those people, TIA, who are giving environmentalism a bad name by making nonsense statements which are an easy prey for those who don't agree with environmentalist ideas. Former mass extinctions are estimated to heve eliminated up to 90% of all life forms. And how bad the present extinction is, it is still far from 90% of all life forms. Therefore it cannot be the greatest yet. Anyone with a bit of knowledge knows that.

And 'fastest' is dubitable as well. Former mass extinctions have been so far away in time that their time scale is fairly unknown. The data give an upper limit like for instance 100,000 years but it might as well have been a decade or two weeks. We only know it was faster than 100,000 years. You seem to be mixing up an upper limit with an estimate of a mean. These are two extremely different things.

What happens now is bad enough and there is no need to make nonsensical or outrageously wrong statements. Such statements do not help at all attempts to save the planet, they rather help those who see no need to act now. Lies never help any case.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:03 PM

How fast was the mass extinction after that asteroid hit the Yucatan peninsula?

Remember when Carl Sagan predicted an ice age because of the oil well fires that Saddam set in Kuwait?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:52 PM

Andy:

Yes it has. But not this fast. And when it has happened before, there were mass extinctions. We are, in fact, in the midlle of the greatest and fastest mass extinction in the history of the planet. And here's a statement that will make the apologists howl, but... No reputable scientist disagrees with this. Only the "think tank" scientists hired by Exxon, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:00 PM

Has this ever happened before?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:30 PM

QUOTE
'Terestial Warming' means that the total 'energy' is increasing - this increases 'turbulence', which means actually greater extremes, both of hot and cold temps in many places - the 'colder temps' mean actually that 'more cold is being swept away from the poles' to use the layman's term, actually using correct scientific terminology, 'more heat is flowing to the poles" - thus the 'warming' effects.

If the polar ice is melting, it is because more heat energy is reaching there...

"To the ignorant, all is bliss!"
UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 12:16 AM

Damn it was cool this weekend. At one point I had to put on a long sleeve shirt.

I have not had to turn the AC on except over the Memorial day weekend.

So what gives with this global warming propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

What the average citizen believes is a product of the media. Facts have very little to do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Jun 06 - 10:49 AM

Two data from a recent survey in Germany:

2/3 believe that a climate catastrophe is inevitable.
15% would accept higher gas prices to avoid it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 08:47 AM

'Terestial Warming' means that the total 'energy' is increasing - this increases 'turbulence', which means actually greater extremes, both of hot and cold temps in many places - the 'colder temps' mean actually that 'more cold is being swept away from the poles' to use the layman's term, actually using correct scientific terminology, 'more heat is flowing to the poles" - thus the 'warming' effects.

If the polar ice is melting, it is because more heat energy is reaching there...

"To the ignorant, all is bliss!"

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 11:20 PM

Buttheads like Limbaugh and Hannity are quite fond of pointing out a particular snowstorm or cold spell as proof that global warming is a myth. Weather and climate are NOT the same. It's a bit like seeing an emaciated starving person eat a grape and claiming "see he's getting plenty to eat".

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Bart
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 10:51 PM

Who is included in "we"

It sure was cool today. Below average for this time of year.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:08 AM

'Terestial Warming' is causing the snow line in Australia - in the Snowy Mountains! to elevate by a documented 150 metres a century. A certain tiny possum is in danger of extermination, because, paradoxically, it cannot hibernate for the normal length of time because the weather is too warm for that, but still too cold for it to find food, so it wakes too early, and then is in danger of starving at the altitudes it has lived in for ages.

When awake, it burns its food stores too fast to last until food becomes available.

When the snow line reaches the tops of the mountains...

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: kendall
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 05:04 AM

Fact, we pump billions of tons of crap into our air and still there are those who either can't or wont see, and that moron in the White House is afraid doing something will cut into the huge profits of the polluters.
Don't believe the earth is warming? Ok, this is what I know of my own observation: 20 years ago there were certain species of critters that simply did not make it up to Maine. Some of them, the Possum, Mockingbirds and the Cardinal. Now they are everywhere, and there can only be one reason; they can now tolerate our weather.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 01:57 PM

No, Mr. T doesn't live in the US. My guess is that he lives in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 04 Jun 06 - 12:21 PM

Teribus states: "The point being made is that the US in general has complied with them and has reduced emmission and pollutents whereas the Europeans and Kyoto signatories who make a great show of action on behalf of the planet fail due mainly to the fact they only pay lip-servicve to their stated commitments."

Show me proof that the US in general has done anything of the kind. Bush has sabotaged the EPA and other government agencies so that they can't be relied upon to support substantive facts. Obviously, Teribus doesn't live in the US especially in the critical areas where emmissions and pollutents prevail.
I smell corporate propaganda.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Jun 06 - 09:21 PM

Global warming 'the greatest atrocity'
By Xavier La Canna; June 04, 2006; the Australian

AUSTRALIAN actor Jack Thompson has said destruction of the environment is a worse atrocity than the September 11 terror attacks and the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima combined. Thompson, who will today address a Melbourne rally on the eve of World Environment Day, said measurably more people were affected by global warming than by the three catastrophic events. "That is not to diminish what happened on 9/11. That is probably the most awful and spectacular incident in my life since Nagasaki and Hiroshima," he said. "But Hiroshima, Nagasaki and 9/11 all together, when you look at the meltdown of the Greenland ice-cap and the flow-on of that alone, the numbers of people affected, it is measurably more."

The death toll from Nagasaki and Hiroshima was probably more than 100,000, possibly exceeding 200,000 within five years of the World War II bombings. An estimated 3,000 people died as a result of the attacks on September 11, 2001. Thompson, who starred in films including Breaker Morant, The Chant of Jimmie Blacksmith, The Sum of Us and My Brother Jack, said he was passionate about encouraging sustainable development. Thousands of people are set to join today's rally to push to protect Victoria's old growth forests.

Thompson most recently co-starred with Sean Penn in The Assassination of Richard Nixon.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 May 06 - 08:50 AM

The book "Play Little Victims" is about the day when God had finally had enough and waggled his finger, leaving the whole surface of the earth devoid of all human life, and under 100 feet of solid ice. In one corner, that apparently got overlooked, were 2 mice (fortunately one of each!), and another side effect of the finger waggling, was that their intelligence was massively advanced. However they found that their whole world was rather small, being basically a small town surrounded by solid ice walls.

The book then details what happens as Adamus, and Evemus (I'm not making this up you know!), with their rapidly expanding population, try to take advantage of their advanced intelligence and the local library....

It's very clever...

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:20 PM

:-D !

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:22 PM

A few more insights . . . .

(Click on the cartoon and it'll become readable.)

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 07:19 PM

Another take on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:50 PM

I am currently in southern Austria, staying in a little village in Carinthia. This afternoon I had coffee with an elderly couple from the village. They told me that the rising temperatures in the area have meant that if you want to see the edelweiss flower, you now have to climb higher up the mountains (this area is in the Alps) because rising temperatures make it too hot for the plant to grow in its previous habitats. The plant isnt "moving up" the mountains, its just only left in the higher regions.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Fans of 'global warming' should check this out...

                              here's the culprit

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Bill D
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:45 PM

well...I tend to agree that the absolute CORE problem **IS** the human population. Solving any of the other problems are just bandaids and delaying if we don't stop and reverse population growth. If we produce food out of thin air and find cheap, non-polluting energy sources, we still cannot keep expanding......Did no one ever read about the rats in the cage experiments?

Do we REALLY want to find out what the absolute maximum possible population density is? It's like wondering how many weak sleeping pills you can take and still wake up.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 06 - 05:03 PM

"So...essentially, the only way to truly fix the whole thing is to reduce the human population, right?"

That's a bit disingenuous, gnu. True, that would probably help, but you're hypothesizing a draconian solution, postulating the horns of a non-existent dilemma. If a sufficiently large portion of the existing population economized, that would help fix the problem.

However, a drop in the birth-rate wouldn't be a bad idea.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: Grab
Date: 28 May 06 - 04:54 PM

Useful link: http://www.worldviewofglobalwarming.org/pages/glaciers.html. *That's* where the warming is, and it's happening all around the globe...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 May 06 - 06:30 PM

Ever read "Play Little Victims"? (short novellette by Kenneth Cook)

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: gnu
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:57 PM

So... essentially, the only way to truly fix the whole thing is to reduce the human population, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Where's the Global Warming
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 May 06 - 05:47 PM

100+ years ago there was a guy advocating the more efficient use of coal, thinking that it would help with pollution, etc. Unfortunately, being dysnomic at times, I can't remember his name, but am sure someone here will know.

The effect of his work was that he noticed that although coal usage became more efficient, in fact, MORE coal was used as a result (it now being a cheaper to use) thus pollution increased.

This IS what human behaviour is...


Excuse me, I've got Chicken Little on the other phone...