West Clare Taliban abduct collector

Subject: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Nova Pilbeam
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 12:37 PM

Today's Clare Champion reports that the notable folk song collector Jim Carroll was taken from his home at 2am on Wednesday by a gang calling itself the 'West Clare Taliban'. The gang broke into the house by hurling a garden gnome through a ground floor window then raced upstairs to grab Carroll, who, according to his partner Pat, was sorting through his newspaper clippings to determine whether Ewan MacColl's original name really was Henry.

A garbled message was subsequently received by the Champion stating that Carroll would only be released either 'When Our Rivers Run Free' or, in the interim, if £5000 was left in a Dunne's carrier bag in the litter bin opposite Henry's Cafe in Ennis.

Meanwhile fears grow for the nonagenarian who, according to Pat, is unlikely to survive more than six hours without a dose of MacColl.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,In The Know
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:34 PM

I believe these ghastly events may be connected to the following correspondence:

*****************************************

Gentlemen,

I have been riding trains daily for the last two years, and the
service on your line seems to be getting worse every day.
I am tired of standing in the aisle all the time on a 14-mile trip.
I think the transportation system is worse than that enjoyed by
people 2,000 years ago.

Yours truly,

J. Carroll

******************

Dear Mr. Carroll,

We received your letter with reference to the shortcomings of our
service and believe you are somewhat confused in your history.
The only mode of transportation 2,000 years ago was by foot.

Sincerely,

Larnrod Eireann.

*******************

Gentlemen,

I am in receipt of your letter, and I think you are the ones who are
confused in your history.

If you will refer to the Bible, Book of David, 9th Chapter, you will
find that Balaam rode to town on his ass.
That, gentlemen, is something I have not been able to do on your
train in the last two years!

Yours truly,

J Carroll

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 02:07 PM

Whew, I thought you were going to abandon this theme an when we were all having such fun. I thought I was going to have to change my library book to see me through the long nights.
I couldn't believe that you would want to continue the punishment after you took such a hiding on the 'Dog and Gun – origin of Golden Glove' thread, but I have to say I was delighted when you did. I have to hand it to you; if I had wished to make fools of you both, there was no way I could have made as excellent a job as you have done yourselves.
Reading down this thread one is left with a feeling of a rather unpleasantly malicious primary school class that has been left to their own devices by a neglectful teacher. Snide name-calling is something I thought I had left behind half a century ago.
I suggest you read through what you have written and ask yourselves if you are proud to have put your name to it – oh, I forgot, you haven't have you, despite your protests about somebody else wishing to remain anonymous – as the song says 'The world's ill-divided'.
I was perturbed that you chose to include Pat Mackenzie in your vitriol spray. As far as I can make out, she has had played no part in this dispute. I suppose she is what our American cousins call 'collateral damage'. However, her inclusion is an indication of the type of people you are.
Your putting her name on the top of one of your postings would have been more credible if you had managed to spell it right - M.A.C.K.E.N.Z.I,E.   Oh dear, mis-spelling a name you are trying to pass off as genuine – now that does take some doing! It would be virtually impossible to invent you two; are you sure you aren't characters in a Kerryman joke.
I was disappointed to see the names of a couple of regular contributors to Mudcat among the forgeries who it is claimed posted to this thread, at least one of whom I would have thought far too sensible to go wading in this sort of sewer; ah well, there's nowt as queer as folk as they say. Perhaps they might put things in context by reading the thread that gave rise to the whole affair – I repeat the title - 'Dog and Gun – origin of Golden Glove'
Anyway, as you appear to have run out of original invective I think I'll leave it there, though I'm sure that we'll bump into one another in the not-too-distant future. Perhaps by then you will have managed to have completed some of your own work rather than having to rely on the efforts of others.
Best wishes to you both.

Thoughts for the day.
A reviewer is one who knows the direction to take but is unable to drive the car.
Kenneth Tynan

Reviewers are usually people who would have been poets, biographers, historians etc. if they could; they have tried their talents at one or at the other and have failed, therefore they turn reviewers.
Samuel Taylor Coleridge

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 03:16 PM

Michael

Is it the day return that's in it? Think I'll just go AWOL for 24 hours.

Regards

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: MartinRyan
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 04:06 PM

Ha! I hadn't opened the Glove thread before this - so had no idea where this particular runaway train was coming from. No need to wait till April, obviously.

Regards

p.s. Good shunt, Joe/JoeClone!

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,bemused_punter
Date: 01 Apr 06 - 12:50 PM

News just in!

The West Clare Taliban have released Jim Carroll unharmed (or, at least, in reasonably working order)and have left him tucked upside down in a litterbin outside the main entrance to the Lahinch golf club.

A missive sent to Clare FM revealed that the group would rescind all its demands rather than face up to another night in Carroll's company. The main spokesperson, one Osama O'Donnell, commented: 'We could put up with his moaning and griping, but it was the wailing and gnashing of teeth which finally drove us to the brink. Plus, he wanted us to sing rare songs from the Scottish Highlands at all hours of the night !'

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 03:53 AM

For full explanation of the informative and erudite communication please read earlier 'Origins - Golden glove-dog and gun' and 'West Clare Taliban abducts collector' threads elsewhere on Mudcat

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:26 AM

Don't you mean 'Collector For sale'? Now that one really is the most articulate .

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 04:29 AM

Oh yeah, sorry.
That's the one that features Pat McKenzie-Mackenzie isn't it?

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 02 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM

Jim,

I have taken no part in this thread before now. Neither have I made a single entry in the Dog and Glove thread that has not been under my own name. I would be interested to know therefore, who "you both" refers to. I would also be interested to know how you of all people could dare to criticise anyone else for making a spelling mistake! Since you are the one who commits most of the typos around here, presumably you invented the Pat MacKenzie contributions.

I can't speak for Geoff Wallis, who is your presumed other target, and I am not going to air my singing, song writing, academic and literary talents here. They are extremely modest, but they would bury you many times over. You are a monumentally mediocre singer, and you can neither play an instrument or write songs or compose melodies. Your literary abilities are considerably less than zero, your scholarship is a standing joke, and you haven't the foggiest idea how to compile a CD booklet. What's more, such reviews as you have attempted to write are ghastly beyond belief. In short you remind me of the Rugby Song, Why Was He Born So Beautiful.

None of this would matter except that you seem to have made a career out of attacking the public reputations of people who possess far more talent than you could ever dream of.

Let us get back to the Dog and Gun thread. It more or less began with a quote from you about the supposed origins of the song. Malcolm Douglas then corrected this, accusing you of laziness in the process. Well, sloppiness might have been nearer the mark, but you immediately and with no basis of substance whatsoever, accused him of being a friend of "Wallis and Grommit". (Momentary aside. Jim Carroll's e-mail talks disapprovingly of "snide name calling". In fact, Jim Carroll has had the childish habit of inventing silly nicknames for everyone he disapproves for as long as I have had the misfortune to know him.)

You then launched into a series of unprovoked attacks on Geoff Wallis and I, initially as Bemusedpunter. When Geoff mistook your fatuous drivellings for Tom Munnelly, you invented a character whom you called "Mary". (Lovely Mary, the cross dressing sailor ?) The sheer stupidity (EG., "Oh Fred, I do love it when you talk dirty!") of these attacks merely show the depths to which you have sunk, but I do wonder how you of all people can complain about snide name calling, and of people wading in a sewer which you yourself have made. Tell me Jim, what is it about the phrase "big league" which gets so far up your nose ? Is it simply that you can't find anything more substantial to attack me with ?

I shall leave Geoff to defend himself, something he is more than capable of doing. However, the string of charges you have been making for the past five and a half years, about my review of The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin, were totally untrue and have been discussed at length in IRTRAD and Musical Traditions. Your accusations are entirely malicious and completely without foundation.

What's more, that review appeared only a matter of months after my work on The Road From Connemara was completed, and my article on the radio ballads was published. Before venomously accusing me of writing a pompous, arrogant and opinionated review (by God, Jim, you want to take a good long look at yourself before using those three words about anyone.), and of rubbishing Daibhí Ó Croinín's work for my own ends, did it ever occur to you to make the slightest acknowledgement of those projects. Did it occur to you to credit the fact that I had made public an important body of songs and singing which had remained hidden from view for almost forty years, or the fact that my efforts resulted in the publication of what is possibly the most important and insightful interview of a genuine folk artist ever - all five hours of it ?

Have you even bothered to read the Internet introduction to the Joe Heaney interview ? (http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/heaney.htm#intro) Well since you haven't I'd better tell you that it contains what is as far as I know, the only concise analysis of MacColl's ideological and theoretical perspective on folksong that has ever been published. Of course, you could have done the whole thing so much better, couldn't you Jim ? What a pity you let those recordings languish for all those years.

To think there was once a time when I was foolish enough to believe you had something to offer. I am no fan of Oliver Cromwell, but for once I find his words to the Long Parliament extremely apt. "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!" And take your half baked string of half understood MacCollisms with you.

Get a life Jim, and a sense of humour.

Fred McCormick, who has no need to hide behind a woman's skirts.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 06 - 02:40 PM

Fred,
Sorry, don't believe you; your somewhat unpleasantly childish style of invective is too easily recognisable – particularly in your Dan Druff persona (a name I have heard you utter in the past by the way and one I have always associated with my childhood in our mutually native Merseyside). The fact that the 'Dog and Gun' thread dried up when the 'Collector For Sale' one appeared is indicative that you and your friend were the instigators. If there is, by coincidence, another feeble mind somewhere out there producing this garbage, I apologise unreservedly – you do agree it is feeble – minded garbage, don't you? (I don't really expect an answer to this!) If I had been guilty of inventing the Pat Mackenzie (you still haven't got the spelling quite right) contributions I think I might have managed to spell her name correctly, don't you?
You are right, I don't play an instrument and I am a mediocre singer, that's why I gave up singing, though I would point out that this mediocrity applies equally to both of us and I don't think you play an instrument either. As for your academic talents – ah well – your 'Big League comment indicates that you have great time for yourself as they say over here (that extremely revealing phrase will haunt you for a long time to come and the fact that you are unable to recognise the self-important arrogance that it suggests speaks volumes!).
I'm afraid I can't claim credit for the "Wallis and Grommit" title; that seems to be circulating widely over here at present.
I reiterate I am not Bemusedpunter, if I were I would happily own up to it as I was breathless with admiration as I watched her run rings around the pair of you. The point she made, that her identity was of no importance to the questions she asked and the views she expressed was quite correct (haven't you noticed that the vast majority of Mudcat contributors use pseudonyms – I presume you object to their doing so also – not to mention friend Geoff's somewhat cloak-and-dagger antics on Irtrad)? Following your foul-mouthed outburst, there is little wonder she preferred to keep her identity secret (though I will give you credit for not resorting to threats of physical violence as your friend Geoff did).
Regarding your review of the Elizabeth Cronin book (at last it seems that we have got beyond the "what is your real name" stage), in fact I have said very little about it. I didn't participate in the original correspondence and referred to it only twice on Irtrad. Having said that, I did find it a piece of mean-minded self-serving towards somebody who is not involved in traditional song and was generous enough to make available his grandmother's songs along with personal family insights that no other writer would have been capable of sharing. I for one am extremely grateful for Dáibhí Ó Cróinín's contribution to my knowledge of Elizabeth Cronin; I certainly gained none from your review. Despite your claim that you devoted half of your 7,621 words to discussing Mrs Cronin's singing, I can only find 197 words on the subject, 92 of which are a 40 year old quote from Ewan MacColl, so in all you wrote 105 of your own words on one of the most important Irish traditional singers – is that really all you considered she was worth? As far as I can find, you made no effort whatsoever to discuss her songs. If I have misjudged you in any way it should be an easy enough matter to put me right with a few quotes.
I did of course enjoy The Road From Connemara, though that was more to do with the work that Joe, Ewan and Peggy put in rather than your efforts. I felt, as did others over here, that it would have been preferable if the editing and notes had been carried out by an Irish-speaker who knew Connemara, however, I most certainly did enjoy the recordings. As for my letting the recordings languish; this is hardly the case as I have passed on dozens of copies to whoever was interested, including yourself; I believe I introduced you to them in the first place. I would never have dreamed issuing them for the reasons stated; I am much more at home with our own field recordings. I have to say I was very perturbed at your 'blatant piracy' posting to Irtrad when you objected to somebody else passing on the material.    Joe was generous enough to share his songs, experiences and opinions with Ewan and Peggy who were in turn generous enough to pass the recordings on to people like myself. I was quite happy to pass them on top you, but it appeared that the tradition stopped with you when you objected strenuously to somebody passing the material on to a wider audience – I thought that's what we were here for.
I confess I was not aware of your analysis of MacColl's ideology; I will make up for that lack of knowledge as soon as I am able to see if it is in fact the "only concise analysis of MacColl's ideological and theoretical perspective on folksong that has ever been published". I do find your attitude to MacColl somewhat ambivalent. The interview that appears in Mike Brocken's 'The British Folk Revival' attributed to you, springs to mind.
"He (MacColl) would allow only three floor singers and would cancel them all at a whim if he thought it necessary….. That's the way he ran things; for himself". I know this to be an extremely inaccurate description of MacColl and The Singers Club and find it totally representative of the 'folkie' nonsense that has prevented a serious examination of MacColl's contribution to the revival down the years. In fairness to yourself I have to admit to being somewhat puzzled by the quote as, when we last met some years ago in Salford you told me – and several others – that you had never given an interview to Mike Brocken, so maybe there has been a mix-up somewhere along the line. Admittedly he did attribute the interviews to 'Fred McCormick, singer' so there may well be another bearing that name.
I really do not know what is happening with you or Musical Traditions Fred. It appears to me that you set out quite deliberately to rubbish a published collection of songs from one of Ireland's greatest traditional singers for which you received the full support of the editor. Last year another Musical Traditional reviewer set out to rubbish a collection of Clare singers using more-or-less the same methods as your own, with the added refinement of insulting the singers either directly ("he sings like a woman", "stage tenor" (the same singer was on Lambs On The Green Hills which Wallis described as "the classic song collection") etc.), or indirectly by ignoring them. Again this reviewer received the support of the editor. Is this really how you people see your role in the field of traditional music? Some time ago you described yourself as the assistant editor of Musical Traditions. Are we to assume that your approach is the in-house style of reviewing? If so, god help traditional music.
I don't know if your review affected the sales of Ó Cróinín's book; Tom Munnelly has pointed out how if has affected any future access to that family's work on the tradition.

Jim Carroll

Isn't it a curious coincidence how this thread seems to have dried up since your last posting Fred?

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 10:18 AM

Jim,

I am not Dan Druff, nor am I the person who dreamt up the Taliban abducts collector string. If Mary exists, and there has not been a single posting by anyone of that name since you rejoined the fray, then she must be in the same category as the Catholic who was caught eating meat on a Friday and said, "You are a fish, not a steak."

I have got much better things to do than waste time wading through your latest load of drivel. However, you have, this time, said several things which cannot be left unchallenged.

>Despite your claim that you devoted half of your 7,621 words to discussing Mrs Cronin's singing, I can only find 197 words on the subject, 92 of which are a 40 year old quote from Ewan MacColl so in all you wrote 105 of your own words on one of the most important Irish traditional singers<

Sorry Jim, you couldn't be more wrong if you'd tried. I have just done a wordcount of that review and this is how the review breaks down.

        -         12866 words of text
        -         1918 words of footnotes
        -         92 words quoting Ewan MacColl.

That comes to 14876 words, not 7621.

In other words you have read, at most, 59% of the body of the review or 51% of the entire piece, depending on how you derived your figure of 7621 words. On those grounds we can cheerfully dismiss all the lies and invective and slanders and libellous accusations which you have thrown at me over the years.

>As far as I can find, you made no effort whatsoever to discuss her songs.<

See above. What a pity you didn't read the whole review.

>If I have misjudged you in any way it should be an easy enough matter to put me right with a few quotes.<

I did, in my final submission to IRTRAD. Ahh, now I see it. That figure of 197 words has been taken from the list of quotes I included in that posting! What a pity you didn't bother to read the whole review.

>I did of course enjoy The Road From Connemara, though that was more to do with the work that Joe, Ewan and Peggy put in rather than your efforts.<

Really ? Who do you think spent twelve months producing that release and editing the interview text for publication, and writing the introduction, which you couldn't be bothered to read ? This may come as a shock to you, but I did far more work on that project than anyone else, Ewan and Peggy included. It is typical of your curmudgeonly attitude that you couldn't admit the same.

>I felt, as did others over here, that it would have been preferable if the editing and notes had been carried out by an Irish-speaker who knew Connemara.<

Wrong again. The interview was conducted in English and I am as qualified as anyone to edit text in that language. Moreover, I know Conamara extremely well and have spent a lot of time there over the years. The Gaelic parts of the interview, namely some of the songs and a few snatches of Irish text, were transcribed by Éamonn Ó Bróithe. He is an expert on the Irish language, who was then working for Bord na Gaelige in Conamara. If you had bothered to read the interview and introduction - whilst also bothering to read the Cronin review - you would also recall that Liam Mac Con Iomaire - the author of the CD booklet biography - is acknowledged as one of the people I consulted over the interview.

>I was very perturbed at your 'blatant piracy' posting to Irtrad when you objected to somebody else passing on the material.<

Wrong again. I was perturbed at the fact that William Kennedy posted over 1,000 words of that interview on the IRTRAD site without asking anyone and without crediting anyone. Yes, MacColl was extremely generous with his material, but he would have been extremely annoyed to see his work pirated without anyone asking permission, and quite rightly so. Seeking permission and acknowledging sources are basic of good manners. I expect such things of myself, and I expect them of others.

>I confess I was not aware of your analysis of MacColl's ideology; I will make up for that lack of knowledge as soon as I am able to see if it is in fact the "only concise analysis of MacColl's ideological and theoretical perspective on folksong that has ever been published".<

I doubt you would understand much of it, but by all means make up for lost time. That essay has only been online for the past six years. While you are at it, you would might also want to read my essay on the radio ballads at hhttp://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/rad_bal.htm . I could be wrong, but again, as far as I know, this essay breaks previously unpublished ground.

Come to think of it, and you evidently haven't explored Musical Traditions anywhere near as much as you enjoy excoriating it, there is a whole string of reviews and articles of mine in there, which you haven't read. Try my work on the Hammons Family for instance. You wouldn't think much of it, but Alan Jabbour, one time head of the Archive of Folk Song at the Library of Congress, who worked closely with the Hammons's, was good enough to contact me and tell me how he admired the piece.

For that matter a Johnny Come Lately to Musical Traditions might also enjoy reading my review of Frank Harte's '98 disc and my pieces on the Revenant Charley Patton retrospective, the Romania volume of the Columbia World Library, the Dust to Digital set, Goodbye, Babylon and many more. Before attempting the wholesale slaughter of my character, over one single review, you would have been well advised to study my Musical Traditions CV.

>I do find your attitude to MacColl somewhat ambivalent.<

Wrong yet again. There is nothing ambivalent in acknowledging and admiring genius, whilst recognising the existence of a few flaws. Indeed, an even hand approach is essential to the assessment of any great individual. Your trouble is that you regard any kind of critical discussion of MacColl, outside your own circle of course, as something akin to treachery. EG., your furious reaction to Geoff Wallis's perfectly innocent question over MacColl's desertion from the army during world war two. Well, you need deny no longer. I have posted the proof at the bottom of this reply.

>The interview that appears in Mike Brocken's 'The British Folk Revival' attributed to you, springs to mind. "He (MacColl) would allow only three floor singers and would cancel them all at a whim if he thought it necessary….. That's the way he ran things; for himself".<

Ah, now we're coming round to it. That's the reason Pat wouldn't speak to me at Salford. One tiny little quote and that was me ostracised. You, on the other hand told Geoff Wallis that you wouldn't speak to me because you didn't like the t shirt I was wearing. I have my own opinion of the state of sanity of the pair of you. I shall leave it to others to decide for themselves.

>I know this to be an extremely inaccurate description of MacColl and The Singers Club<

On the contrary, it is an accurate summary. Three floor singers was all that were allowed, and they were given one song each. It was usually the first three singers who put their names down on the list. And I saw MacColl abandon the "singers from the floor race", as you used to call it, on at least two occasions. The limited space given to floor singers was something which you and Pat complained of to me. If the complaint was good enough to be aired in private, then why not in public ?

>In fairness to yourself I have to admit to being somewhat puzzled by the quote as, when we last met some years ago in Salford you told me –and several others – that you had never given an interview to Mike Brocken, so maybe there has been a mix-up somewhere along the line. Admittedly he did attribute the interviews to 'Fred McCormick, singer' so there may well be another bearing that name.<

Sorry Jim, I can live without the sarcasm. I am a singer, and a well accredited one and you know it. What's more, I am one of the few people left in this country who has taken the trouble to learn the craft of singing from traditional singers and is still ut there keeping the songs alive. It shows a rare meanness of spirit that you cannot even acknowledge the same.

It is true that I never gave an interview to Mike, that remark having been made off the cuff, and I was not very pleased when it appeared in his thesis. However, like Ewan MacColl, I am generous with my help to people, and with my opinions.

>I really do not know what is happening with you or Musical Traditions Fred. It appears to me that you set out quite deliberately to rubbish a published collection of songs from one of Ireland's greatest traditional singers<

We have been over this so many times that I am totally sick of it. I attacked the hard copy side of that publication because it needed attacking. I did not attack Elizabeth Cronin or her collection of songs. The fact that you cannot assess the shortcomings of that volume is indication of your own lack of knowledge and scholastic ability.

>for which you received the full support of the editor.<

Wrong yet again. I wrote that review without consulting Rod Stradling. He posted it with considerable reluctance, and you may want to read his comment at the end of the review, if it is still there. Unfortunately, like you, Rod is not a scholar and his knowledge of Irish folksong is, by his own admission, extremely limited. What's more, he had not read the book and he had no idea of how bad it is. It was not until Dáibhí Ó Cróinín emailed him to admit that the transcriptions were seriously in error that Rod realised I might have a point. Subsequent to that, he wrote a supportive editorial in my favour. It is still on the Musical Traditions website.

>Last year another Musical Traditional reviewer set out to rubbish a collection of Clare singers....................Again this reviewer received the support of the editor.<

Wrong yet again. I happen to know that Geoff and Rod had some discussions about that review and the state of your booklet, before he put pen to paper. But he did not receive "the support of the editor". Straightening out the mess that is The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin was something which I felt I had to do. I am semi-retired and I could afford to take the three months out of my life, which it took to research and write. Geoff, on the other hand, is a professional writer and it is testimony to his integrity that he took the time and the trouble to clarify the appalling mess which is your booklet.

(Incidentally, you accused him of insulting traditional singers. That is quite untrue, as anyone who has made an unbiased reading of the review will confirm. Even so, your comment raises an interesting question. Why should traditional singers be treated differently to anyone else ? You have a most unenviable reputation for sniggering and sneering at practically everyone connected with the folk revival. If you expect Geoff Wallis or anyone else to show good manners, you would do well to set an example.

>Is this really how you people see your role in the field of traditional music? Some time ago you described yourself as the assistant editor of Musical Traditions.<

Sorry Jim, I am the co-editor of Musical Traditions, although personal problems have forced me to take a back seat over the past few years.

>Are we to assume that your approach is the in-house style of reviewing?<

There is no in-house style of reviewing as you would know if you had troubled to read the policy statement at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/policy.htm

Overall, I am driven to the same conclusion as that held by many other people, that you are extremely fond of mercilessly attacking everybody you take exception to. You just cannot take it when the boot is on the other foot.

Incidentally, apropos of all your quibbling with Geoff over "Jim and Pat's", here's part of a sentence with a pair of possessive pronouns. It comes from the 2005 Charles Parker Archive Annual Report and Accounts and it was written by Peter Merriman. "In a chapter on the motorway's construction I looked at how MacColl, Parker and Seeger's exposition.........".

Finally, as mentioned earlier, here is the synopsis of the file which MI5 held on Ewan MacColl. The complete file up to 1955 can be viewed at the National Archive at Kew.

.....................................................................

(1932-1951) records how Miller first came to the attention of the authorities in 1932 when the chief constable in Salford reported him as a Communist Party member of the Ramblers Section of the British Workers´ Sports Federation. A watch was initiated on his activities, and steps were taken to ascertain his exact status (i.e. whether directly employed by the BBC or not). In January 1939 the Lancashire police reported Miller´s performance at a rally: "my officer has been making enquiries regarding a youth named Jimmy MILLER who was the MC for the dancing…and showed exceptional ability as a singer and musical organiser." A watch was kept on Miller and Littlewoods´ broadcasting activities, and police mounted a ´discreet supervision´ of Oak Cottage in Higham Lane, Hyde, where the Millers were living, and reports of activities and visitors are on the file. Because of his Communist history, Miller was placed on the Special Observation List when he enlisted in the Army in July 1940 (well before the German invasion of the Soviet Union). The file includes a conduct report by his commanding officer, noting his generally good conduct and his outstanding contribution to the battalion concert party (and including the lyrics of his newly composed song, Browned Off), dated 16 December, just two days before Miller went absent without leave. The file includes some intercepted correspondence from the Millers when they wrote to contacts whose communications were being intercepted, but their own posts and telephone were not intercepted. The file includes photographs of Miller (both before and after he grew his beard) and Littlewood.
The story continues in KV 2/2176. The first use of the name Ewan MacColl is noted in March 1952, at a time when the authorities´ interest in Miller was revived as he reapplied to join the Communist Party (his previous membership having lapsed some years before). A copy of the application form in the name of Ewan MacColl is on this file. The file is mainly concerned with ongoing monitoring of Miller´s theatrical and radio work, but records his marriage to Joan Newlove, mother of Kirsty MacColl.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 01:22 PM

My God this could change the whole course of history.
Thank heaven you have found the perfect place to conceal this information and exactly the correct language with which to isguise it's importance.

well done lads! keep it up! a good effort!

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 06 - 06:16 PM

Still no quotes Fred - I didn't think so. You know Mrs Cronin, she was the one who sang - or didn't you notice.
Forget if Fred - Weelittledrummer has the right of it.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 05 Apr 06 - 03:37 AM

Sorry Jim. There's no point in talking to you or Tom Munnelly. Neither of you have read the review. Neither of you have a clue what you are talking about.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Nova Pilbeam
Date: 06 Apr 06 - 04:21 AM

From Today's Clare Champion

Noted Folk Song Collector Re-imprisoned And Then Set Free.
In a startling chain of events, hostage Jim Carroll was earlier this week snatched from the dustbin, where he had been dumped by the West Clare Taliban. He was then re-imprisoned in the Ailwee caves, before eventually setting himself free.

Last night, the noted folk song collector was back home with his wife, Pat and his pet lizards, Henry and Tom. According to a Garda representative, the Free West Clare Taliban, a splinter group of the main organisation, carried out the snatch raid on the Lahinch Golf Club dustbin, when they heard that Osama Bin Liner, the WLT leader, had decided it would be impossible to ransom Mr. Carroll.
The prisoner then literally talked his way out of gaol. In a scene reminiscent of one of Tom Sharpe's novels, Mr. Carroll, a former world champion marathon arguer, recounted the praises of Ewan MacColl for eighteen hours without a break or a single possessive pronoun. Eventually, the Taliban members ran shrieking from the caves, leaving Mr. Carroll free to make his way home.

The folk song collector, who looked none the worse for his ordeal, said "It was tough going. There was one horrible moment when I thought they didn't want to listen."

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 08:45 AM

Fred,
Isn't it strange how two individuals who have taken it upon themselves to scrutinise other people's work almost to the point of destruction, react so violently when their own work is put under scrutiny. The phrase about glass houses and throwing stones springs to mind. I am curious to know why you always bring up the subject of litigation. Did you know your friend actually threatened to set his solicitor on us for daring to criticise his behaviour – I treasure his e-mail and am thinking of having it framed!
If us mortals don't realise by now how impeccable and important your own efforts are, that is entirely due to our own lack of discernment – haven't you dedicated your last two postings to putting us right on the subject? Any comment from us would be superfluous. I wonder how many people out there will be pleased to learn that you are 'one of the few' singers to base your singing on the tradition'. Virtually every revival singer I have heard makes this claim. All I can say is that there is little evidence of it in your singing. And you suggest that MacColl was self-promoting!
Contrasting the high praise you have for yourself, your arrogance towards the work of others is somewhat breathtaking. A fine example of this was in your criticising us for not identifying the head of the Folklore Department. You took it upon yourself to name him when we had been clearly advised how to acknowledge the help they had given us in producing 'Around The Hills of Clare', but unfortunately you named the wrong person. This must surely have qualified you for a place on 'It'll Be All Right On The Night'! I think even your editor had to admit to this one.
That you need to ask "why should traditional singers be treated differently to anyone else" really does show an unbelievably flawed grasp of the responsibility of revivalists and researchers towards the people who supply us with our raw material. Traditional singers (at least the ones we have recorded) have shown an enormous generosity with their time, patience and hospitality in passing on their songs, stories and information. Anybody who has done field work will tell you that the hardest part of the job is not to get them to part with their material and information, but to persuade them in the first place that what they have is of value and that by singing or speaking into a tape recorder, they are not going to be humiliated. It is our responsibility, not theirs, to make sure that what they have given us is treated with respect. They do not need a jumped-up poison-pen wielding hack who is apparently incapable of reading sleeve notes or album titles accurately, telling them that they "sound like a woman" or "a stage singer" or "stentorian" or sing "garbled lyrics". That neither you nor your friend saw any harm in describing an elderly West Clare farmer the way Wallis chose to shows an unbelievable insensitivity towards a very sensitive field of work. There was a reason why the singer in question sang the way he did but this had no place in our notes. Traditional singers should not be part of the critical process we would apply to each others efforts; their agendas and values are not ours, nor should they be caught up in our reputation building or our petty squabbles. They should receive our gratitude and respect, not our abuse.
Both of you have displayed an enormous arrogance towards the work of others and to the tradition, and the fact that you either don't know or don't care that you have damaged the music that we all claim to value, calls into question your judgment and your motives.
You at least appear to have some knowledge and respect for the tradition; from the evidence on hand, your friend has only a superficial grasp of the subject and his arrogant rejection of the work of people like Breathnach and Ríonach ui ógáin suggests that this will remain the case. His out-of-hand dismissal of Breathnach's researches into the effect of the clergy on Irish dancing is typical of his ignorance and arrogance. He apparently hasn't read Breathnach's work on the subject, where he cites the bishop who exhorted parents to "take a whip to the backs of their errant daughters when they indulged in the sinful practice of dancing". Nor does he appear to be aware of Tom Munnelly's published interview with fiddler player, the late Junior Crehan, where Junior (a very devout man) spoke movingly of the priests breaking up and all-but ending the house dances, often forcibly. Nor has he met the musicians around here who described how they had to watch helplessly while their instruments were smashed by the priest's stick. Or the humiliation experienced by dancers and musicians who had their names read out from the pulpit for taking part in the dances. Or perhaps he would like to be introduced to one of our local singers who lost the use of one of her ears due to a blow received from a priest for attending a house dance.
If this first hand evidence isn't enough for him, perhaps he might like to read the statement issued by the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland at Maynooth in 1925 entitled 'The Evils of Dancing', aimed at 'foreign' dances but used by many of the clergy of Ireland as a go ahead to systematically end the practice of traditional dancing forever.
I said that Wallis's and your behaviour has had no effect on our work; this isn't altogether true. Having completed 'Around The Hills of Clare' we had more-or-less decided to prepare our Walter Pardon interviews for issuing. The natural place for this seemed to be Musical Traditions and we had discussed approaching Stradling with the idea. Now this is out of the question – we wouldn't trust Musical Traditions with the milk money as far as the corner shop. Thanks to your efforts Walter's interviews, his manuscript books containing the texts and listings of all his songs dating back to 1948, the notebooks he filled for us with local lore, place-names, local words, along with his knowledge and opinions of traditional singers and songs; all of this will remain on our shelves, with our unreleased West Clare and Traveller material and will eventually end up in an archive somewhere. This is also the case with interviews of MacColl and the recordings of the Critics Group meetings. Before you suggest it, this is no way based on a 'be nice to me or I'll take my ball home' attitude. People like Walter, Tom Lenihan, Mary Delaney and Mikeen McCarthy, as well as being extremely valuable sources of information, were our friends and we have no intention of putting them within the reach of your grubby, self-serving grasps, to be sneered at and used as career opportunities.
I suppose you may add another scalp to your belts; well done fellers, I hope you feel all your work has not been wasted
MacColl certainly would not have objected to the free use of Joe Heaney's interview, though he might well have objected to your behaviour which left me with the impression that you regarded it as your own property. When Dave Harker published his 'Big Red Songbook', some of us commented on the fact that he had not asked permission, or even bothered to inform Ewan and Peggy that he had include five of their songs, despite the fact that he had thanked them for their support in his preface. There was correspondence about it in Folk Review at the time. Their attitude was that the sharing of songs and field recordings could only be of benefit to the revival and was far more important than gaining their permission. Apparently you don't agree.
Your interpretation of the singers from the floor policy was typical of the anti-MacColl garbage still circulating in the revival some 16 years after his death. The practice was applied because The Singers was a policy club, aiming at presenting traditional or traditionally based performers. I, and others got extremely fed up with performers turning up, giving their names to the doorkeeper as singers, sitting in the bar until it was their time to go on, doing their piece, which might have been traditional, but was just as likely to be C&W, music hall, early pop songs, or introspective, navel-gazing self penned stuff that had nothing to do with the aims of the club, then disappearing, never to be seen again. The club policy was not to restrict the number to three (I have recordings of up to seven performers on some evenings), but to make a judgment on the spot of what we were likely to be given and so maintain some control on what was presented. It was an approach which was raised and re-confirmed regularly by the audience committee on which both Pat and I served; we certainly never complained of the policy though we may have joked about it occasionally. The phrase 'singers from the floor race' was coined by Brian Pearson and referred to the numbers of singers who turned up every week expecting to be given at least three songs. The club was not, and never pretended to be a sing-around club.
We in The Critics Group were well aware of MacColl's war record; which makes you revelatory footnotes somewhat old hat. The editor of Dance And Song, Derek Schofield was recently gleefully circulating such information, so you appear to be in good company. Did you know MacColl wrote 'The Lags Song' based on his experiences in prison at the time. He was extremely proud of his MI5 record, as was my father who was similarly honoured as a 'Premature Anti-fascist' for fighting in Spain. My objection was not that the matter was raised but that once again it was taking the place of discussion of his ideas on singing. Next year there will be a biography of MacColl published. The author will certainly cover his army record, his politics, his theatre work etc.; hopefully he will also cover his ideas on singing. If he does it will be a first.
I really have no idea what you are referring to when you talk about Pat refusing to speak to you – sorry Fred – it never happened and it sounds extremely "Miss, Johnny won't talk to me", but there you go, it takes all sorts…... Neither she nor I have ever met Geoff Wallis (to our knowledge) and should we have done so, the last thing we would discuss with him is your sartorial tastes. I'm sure you are able to supply us with the relevant details so we can give this important subject the attention you obviously believe it deserves; E-mails or letters would help, or is it another of these mysterious 'conversations' we had with you? I really don't know when we had time to do any work on singing; we were all so busy slagging people off!!! You know, what with tee-shirts and demoniac Martin Carthys I sometimes find myself looking over my shoulder for a white rabbit with a pocket watch or a dormouse in a teapot when I am in contact with you.
No Fred; both Tom and I have read your Cronin review in full. I erroneously based my calculations on the amount you had written on an abridged version that was circulated here some time ago which selected the offensive bits for comment – mind you, the circulator probably hadn't read it either!
Who is Peter Merriman and why is his writing significant in judging what is correct and incorrect? Bad grammar is bad grammar (or are you saying it was correct – we really need to know!!!) and those who wish to make an issue of such things really must expect to be treated similarly – glass houses and all that! The point is of course, a very insignificant one; it only became important when Geoff Wallis chose to make it so in his campaign to "correct the sloppiness" of Irish writing!
Well, this has been fun – (I'll let you get back to your piranha pool, as Tom Munnelly so beautifully put it). And please, please stop whining about being persecuted; it makes you appear very undignified.
Best,
Jim Carroll
PS isn't it interesting that a comment on the disappearance of a thread brings the brain-dead to life again. Still haven't had your opinion on this particular style of intellectual discussion.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Unimpressed
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 02:12 PM

I wish I hadn't stumbled on this thread, but here goes.

Jim Carroll reminds me of that famous Monty Python toy - the 'naughty Humphrey - press him in the back and he vomits - breaks the ice at parties'.

I don't doubt Carroll's abilities as a collector, but he is a 'naughty Humphrey' for our times - press him in the back and admire the stream of invective which ensues. Give it a rest, Carroll.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:43 AM

I have to say that I'm both fascinated and dismayed by exchanges between Jim Carroll and Fred McCormick above. It is ever so slightly embarrassing to witness two people, who I both respect and admire, engaged in a no-holds-barred street fight! Eye-gouging and blows-below-the-belt shouldn't really be allowed in any sort of fighting.

Far be it from me to spoil your fun but wouldn't it advance the cause of traditional music more if you both found some common ground and also found a way of pooling your considerable talents? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 04:51 AM

I have no idea who you are, or what I've done to deserve your admiration, but I quite agree. However, two rules to remember when arguing with Jimmy Carroll.

1.

I have to say that I'm both fascinated and dismayed by exchanges between Jim Carroll and Fred McCormick above. It is ever so slightly embarrassing to witness two people, who I both respect and admire, engaged in a no-holds-barred street fight! Eye-gouging and blows-below-the-belt shouldn't really be allowed in any sort of fighting.

Far be it from me to spoil your fun but wouldn't it advance the cause of traditional music more if you both found some common ground and also found a way of pooling your considerable talents? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 05:01 AM

Sorry about that but the rocket went off in mid sentence. Let me try again.

I have no idea who you are, or what I've done to deserve your admiration, but I quite agree - about the argument that is. However, two rules to remember when arguing with Jimmy Carroll.

1. He always makes the truth up as he goes along.
2. He never lets anyone else get a word in edgeways.
3. He is always right.
4. He never lets anyone else have the last word.
5. He never lets anyone else terminate an argument.
6. However the argument started, Jim Carroll's decision on its course and subject is final.

Yes I know I said two rules, but I thought I'd spoil myself.

By the way I hate anonymous messages. Why don't you expose yourself?

I have to say that I'm both fascinated and dismayed by exchanges between Jim Carroll and Fred McCormick above. It is ever so slightly embarrassing to witness two people, who I both respect and admire, engaged in a no-holds-barred street fight! Eye-gouging and blows-below-the-belt shouldn't really be allowed in any sort of fighting.

Far be it from me to spoil your fun but wouldn't it advance the cause of traditional music more if you both found some common ground and also found a way of pooling your considerable talents? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 07:27 AM

Fred,

Yes, I know it's cowardly to remain anonymous - but in this case my judgement says that it's probably the wisest course - fear of the old 'collateral damage' I suppose (especially given the fierceness of some of the exchanges above).

For the record, I mainly admire you for the independence of your views and for the quality of your writing (especially on MusTrad). Your reviews are fierce, erudite and knowledgeable and are always a pleasure to read - even if, on rare occasions, I find something to disagree with. At the risk of too much flattery I was also deeply impressed by your notes to the Topic Joe Heaney compilation - a great tribute to a great man.

Anyway, I'll shut up now and sneak away - it's not my fight and I probably should not have butted in (especially anonymously!). Before I do though, and for the sake of balance, I admire Jim and Pat for their ongoing dedication to the memory of Ewan MacColl and for their collections of traditional materials from members of the Traveller community and from Walter Pardon.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 08:51 AM

From the sound of it you would enjoy the introduction to the Joe Heaney interview, which went out as part of the same project as The Road From Connemara (http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/heaney.htm). It includes the CD booklet introduction, but is mainly concerned with analysing MacColl's theoretical and ideological perspective, in the light of the Heaney interview.

You might also want to look at my overview of the radio ballads, which coincided with the Topic releases of a few years ago (http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/rad_bal.htm), and which analysed the structure and format of the radio ballads in the light of the social and economic climate of the day.

In both cases I tried to break new ground and tried to inject a bit of reason in areas where pre-existing commentaries were either non-existent or sterile.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Apr 06 - 09:24 AM

Thanks, Fred - I'll follow up those links with interest.

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 03:00 AM

Observer,
Thanks for the timely reminder - you are right of course.
Fred and I have said all that there is to be said on the subject, anybody in any way interested in our squabbles can make up their own mind as to the rights and wrongs of the matter. Taking things further would be petty point scoring on our parts and would be in nobody's interests, certainly not that of the music - which is what it is all about really.
Thanks again,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: West Clare Taliban abduct collector
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 10 Apr 06 - 05:28 AM

Sorry Jim, this is the second time you've called a truce. The first time you immediately broke it. As for petty point scoring I'd like to point you towards your mean spirited comments on my singing. You know perfectly well they aren't true and you know perfectly well how assiduously I've learned from traditional singers, and you know perfectly well how much I value the experience of Singers Workshop, and I know perfectly well the depths to which you had to sink before you could make a crack like that.

And you know perfectly well that traditional songs and singing are the most important things in my life.

Then there are your below the belt comments on The Road From Connemara and the Joe Heaney Review. You know perfectly well that project would never have taken come to fuition without all the sweat and tears and belief which I poured into it, and without my conviction that those songs are important, and that that interview is probably the most important piece of the oral history of a traditional singer which has ever been made.

And that's before we even consider your defamatory attempts to distort and misrepresent my review of the Songs of Elizabeth Cronin.

(N.B., to anyone who might have a copy of this hacked down and totally misrepresentative version of that review, which some enemy of mine (Munnelly ? Moulden ?) has been circulating in an attempt to hide the truth of what I actually wrote, get rid of it. The full review can be read at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/cronin.htm .

Circulating a selective version without my knowledege, and as though it were the complete article is just about the most contemptible thing I have ever heard of. And there was me thinking St. Patrick had driven all the snakes out of Ireland.)

Petty point scoring is nothing new where you're concerned, but the war's over isn't it. You want a truce ? I'll give you a truce. You stay out of my way and I'll stay out of yours.