BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs

Subject: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:11 PM

My church is scheduled to be renovated, and I am one of the people active in the process. I have been saying for a long time that if there are steps anywhere, that it is good to have one tread dark and the next tread light. I got this idea from an article in Smithsonian Magazine. (long ago, I don't have the reference) After I read that article, I painted my basement steps, one dark red and the next white. After that I felt much safer going down those steps.

But yesterday a friend of mine said that she hates having one step dar and the next light. She said that going down steps like that made her feel dizzy and confused. She doesn't like my basement steps, nor the big staircase at a local mall where the steps are alternately white and charcoal gray.

Neither she nor I have any obvious handicaps that might explain this difference.

So this is the survey: if you have ever gone down steps where different treads are different colors, how did you feel about it?

Feel free to mention anything else that might be a factor.

Thanks!

(I am not really a Guest.)

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:20 PM

Are there railings for people to hang onto? That reduces many of the problems to do with stairs.

The other thing is lighting. Stairwells/stairways are often poorly lit. Make the place bright with natural or artificial light.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:21 PM

I've known quite a few cases where a solid coloured carpet in a poorly lit area has been highlighted as a risk on health and safety reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:29 PM

What NOT to do . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: heric
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:32 PM

There is a scholarly article herewhich recommends alternate colors. You have to pay to read it, except for the abstract, but the recommendation exists according to the google excerpt. (No cache is available, even though that excerpt is quoted.)

In the abstract, I can understand your friend's problem. A sripe on the "lip" of each step might be easier.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:37 PM

Heric's suggestion is a good one. Delineating where the 'lip' of the stair is often makes it easier for people with spacial orientation problems to navigate those stairs. However, I would make railings a 'must', and ensure people can actually see the stairs because the area is properly lit.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:46 PM

A stripe on the lip - if I understand it to mean that the forward edge of each step is outlined - gets my vote. In Juneau we have many outdoor stairs and although they are not striped as such - they are steel - still the pebbled outline is there, at the forward edge.

I have a small problem with differently colored steps- for some reason they make me feel somewhat dizzy, although I can override it. Feels kind of like having steps of different heights and depths.

Peace, in your link those concrete steps inside that concrete building are horrendous! One time that having carpeted stairs and maybe hanging pictures on the walls would not come amiss.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:00 PM

The official name for the 'lip' is the nosing projection, assuming that the flat part of the stair that people walk on does stick out a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:03 PM

It seems to me that rather than alternating dark and light steps, it would be better to have, as heric said, a light stripe on the edge of each step.

I presume that, in the renovation, if your church is not already wheelchair accessible, that provisions for this are being seriously considered. I recall a synod conference some years ago where I attended a workshop on making churches accessible to the disabled. One pastor commented that his church didn't have that problem. There were no disabled folks in his congregation. It had never occurred to him question why that might be. I quoted the line from the movie, "Field of Dreams" to him:   "Build it, and they will come." He looked a bit bewildered for about ten seconds while he contemplated that, then a very visible, cartoon-style light bulb appeared over his head. I think I may have scored a point.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:24 PM

I hate carpeted stairs...seem slicker to me....but friction tape helps on wooden ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:38 PM

Go with an elevator.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 May 06 - 03:38 PM

The stairs to the basement in my house are carpeted red & black. Apart from being ugly, the carpet is glued to the walls (!) as well as the stars, so it would be difficult to replace. AND there is no handrail (something that I will rectify).

I put a black rubber mat at the bottom to provide contrast. It helps A LOT.

Try (carefully!!!) walking down the stairs of alternating colors with your eyes closed and see if you get dizzy (hold the handrail!!). Or try NOT looking at the stairs as you descend. It's probably a visual thing that's evoking a fear/vertigo response.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 04:01 PM

This would certainly solve the problem . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 06 - 08:04 PM

The idea of alternating colors on the steps has been pushed by a number of different sources, but is also something of a horror to others. Those who advocate it usually have relied on "tests" with random groups of people, but the "randomness" has seldom been documented.

Different people react differently, and for some people the alternate colors are strongly "disorienting." The consensus of opinion from those actually involved in serious human factors and safety is that a uniform visual image with each individual step marked so that it's easily "targeted" is least likely to trigger disorientation in the largest possible number of potential users.

Each step should stand out as an individual and identifiable separate object, with good visual separation from adjacent like objects; but the objects should all be essentially the same to avoid triggering disorientation in susceptible persons.

If two visual objects are different, the brain has to make a choice between "objects of one kind" or "objects of another kind," in addition to chosing the specific object of the selected kind. Most people don't have a problem with it, but that's confusing to a few people. The choice of "which one of these all-the-same objects comes next" is less likely to cause a "brain fart" that can result in an accident for those who are susceptible.

A contrasting "nose" on each step is an essential feature. It has also been found helpful in some cases to have a side "edge" on each step with a contrasting color, often to match the nose, so that each individual step has a "U-shape" (with the nose) in visual pattern. Carpeted stairs ideally should never be carpeted in flat tones to the edge, since the "bare stair" at the edge helps to make each step an identifiable "image" easily separated from the mass of steps. A contrasting carpet side stripe can serve for this aid to "step separation" if you really want to have carpet all the way across. "Stair carpeting" is available in standard widths that incorporates the needed stripe along the sides, if you choose full tread carpeting.

Good lighting is, of course essential.

You can find lots of arguments for and against the alternate color thing. Most of what I find "for" it is more opinionating than tested/testable information. If you can make it "pretty," then go for it; but there are adequate and safe design features that can be used that are as good or better from the safety aspect.

It's an idea like the mandatory "child proof" caps on prescription medicines. If you can't get the lid off you may die, but the kids are safe. A safety feature has to consider all those who may use it, and the alternate colors may help some, but are suspected of decreasing safety for some people, at least by some credible sources.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Alice
Date: 07 May 06 - 09:04 PM

makes me dizzy

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 May 06 - 09:08 PM

When we bought the house the only light on the stairs was at the top. The one at the bottom didn't work. There is also a window to the (attached) garage.

I bought a rope light before the lights were put in and tossed it down the steps so that there was light.

There are now two two-tube fluorescent lights on the stairs, one after the other. And the stairs are MUCH safer.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 May 06 - 09:26 PM

Rapaire -

Save that rope light. The "* new thing" in decorating is rope light behind a valence, on a dimmer, for "mood lighting." It seems to be all over the place recently, including our "brand new" three year old camper.

* new for me is of course anything I've noticed that I can remember on occasion.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:19 PM

Thanks, keep the responses coming.

We are having an elevator, lighting, wheelchair access and handrails. This debate is essentially for the three steps up to the altar.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:21 PM

OK. Have you considered having two people on either side of the altar to assist those in need?

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: heric
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:22 PM

Three steps? The answer is red! Carpeted. We don't need stripes or barber poles here.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:29 PM

We don't have barber poles in town anymore. A good while back some guy was at the circus when it was here and he fed the elephants candy canes. They took a liking to them.

Two years later the circus returned, and you know the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:29 PM

No, heric. We need something besides three steps all the same color.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:32 PM

I suppose this would be a non-starter, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: heric
Date: 08 May 06 - 12:19 AM

is carpeting in or out? You could do something beautiful with different types of wood.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:06 AM

If it's wooden make the thread of a dark wood & a thinner nosing of a lighter wood, or the other way around. Any ajacent wood work or border work can be also used to highlight the difference.
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:19 AM

If the different colors were pale vs. red on black or some such thing, I think it would cut down on the dizziness factor. I like the stip on the lip business myself...if you have to fancy it up because they are steps to the alter, what about inlaid wood with a darker design on the lip of each step?

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:57 AM

Well, for three steps, it doesn't matter much, but for more general purposes, do not use alternate coloured steps. I think they have a tendancy to disrupt some peoples depth perception, which is why the dizziness can happen.


A contasting colour strip on the lip is a good idea, especially if it is a high grip finish.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:28 AM

If you can find an OLD book about carpentry, every tradesman had to learn that there were specific design limits for stairs.

Depending on the height that has to be ascended and the horizontal travel allowable, there are strict formulas about the vertical spacing between each tread, the depth of each tread, the overlap of the front lip of each tread over the back of the one below it, and the horizontal distance between the front lips of succeeding treads.

These relationships are all ancient knowledge, and related to the anatomy of how the legs (of an average person of average height) move when climbing stairs. Breach these relationships, and the steps are disorienting to use.

A friend had her old rotting wooden steps torn out and replaced by some random lumpings of bricks by some 'handymen' (well they had all these bricks lying around, you see, so it would be cheaper than buying real replacement stairs!), and she has enormous difficulty getting up the 2 ft 6 inches height now.....

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: GUEST,Wordless Woman, crumbled cookie
Date: 08 May 06 - 05:34 PM

ACK! Stairs. I'm nursing a very bruised body after a fall down my cellar stairs yesterday.

A light at the top and bottom of the stairs is a help. Holding the handrail - something I did not do yesterday - is highly recommended.

Last weekend darling sister and I had trouble negotiating some outdoor agregate stairs at Longwood Gardens. All those stones and pebbles made it difficult to identify the edge of each step. It didn't help that the stairs had a wide curve to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:39 PM

I used to work at the headquarters of an insurance company. When we moved to a new building, there were rumors that the consultants in the loss-reduction department—those are the people whose jobs are to advise policy holders on how to make their buildings safer—were very unhappy that they hadn't been consulted by the architects who designed the new building. They denounced (according to the rumors anyway—I don't think their comments were ever published) several features of the new building, particularly the main stairway that went from the lobby to the upper level. Some things I remember:

1. Hand railings should be made of wood, not metal. Metal is cold to the touch, which causes some people not to use them.
2. Hand railings should be of the right diameter so that you can get a strong grip on them. These hand railings were too large—about 5 or 6 inches in diameter, as I recall.
3. Stairs should never be carpeted. Carpet will eventually wear out and tear, and a torn carpet is a tripping hazard.
4. Stairs should always have risers. (These were open.)

See this diagram: this diagram.

Also, the Scottish building standards seem to be very clear and detailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:25 PM

This debate is essentially for the three steps up to the altar.

This suggests an altar on the "speakers platform" (possibly with an additionally elevated pulpit) which is raised above the congregation floor level. In many such arrangements the "steps" leading up run the full width of the platform. This is a substantially different case than for a "staircase" that's typically about three feet wide. If you're talking about a thirty foot long "step" it should be stated as such.

You could also mean an actual staircase at one side of a platform/choir loft/altar.

What is the width of each step?

Is it a dominant part of the view that the congregation has to look at?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:19 PM

Per wife Jenn, the occupational therapist, who does home evaluations for disabled/recovering people returning home after a stretch in the hospital -- stripe the leading edge of the steps. Don't use alternating colors.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:06 PM

The leading edge of the steps should in various situations have the abrasive 'grip strips' added. Now wide altar steps are an 'architectural feature' and may be dealt with differently under some building codes than 'normal steps for normal traffic'.

Please stop playing with amateurs - pay a qualified professional to give professional advice for a place frequented by the public - who can then be sued if their bad or wrong advice results in injuries - it's also cheaper in the long run - false economies are often caused by good meaning ignorant people (amateurs) trying to pinch pennies.

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: heric
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:18 PM

then again she's got to have the ideas in mind, for what she wants from the professionals. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: JennyO
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:48 PM

I don't imagine she'll be wanting anything like these!

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: GUEST,Dr. Fritz Fassbender
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:51 PM

Where did you get that picture of my house ?

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 May 06 - 11:07 PM

Foolestroupe -

The problem is "how do you find a qualified professional?".

Expert: someone who says convincingly that he/she knows more than someone who has enough money to hire him/her.

Professional: someone who convinces someone with money to pay him/her to do something.

Consultant: someone who convinces someone with money that his idea is better than the idea the other professional (and possibly the expert) had.

Note the complete absence of any reference to ability to define the requirements of a job and get the job done in all of the above "working definitions."

Sometimes it's sufficent to have a working B.S. detector, and if you're really sharp at this you don't necessarily have to know how the job whould be done. Persons with administrative positions (i.e. who can write the check) seem not generally to possess this faculty.

Often it's necessary to have some ideas about what constitutes a good piece of work in order to be able to detect the B.S. so that you can hire an appropriate pro.

And see Jim Dixon 08 May 06 - 07:39 PM for results of a "professional job." It does happen far too often.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 11:26 PM

'The problem is "how do you find a qualified professional?".'

I'm agreeing with you JiK... :-)

Of course you are talking about the USA... in Australia, some things are less complicated due to our differing laws, which some people (often Americans) try to dismiss as 'too intrusive' etc. :-)

However, when things go wrong here and the shit hits the fan once in a while, they then do so in a BIG way cause ALL the 'safety stops' have totally failed - eg "Dr Death" !!!

In the case of stairs in a public building such as a church - we just hire an architect - in fact you pretty well much have to to get plans approved by the local Councils under the building regs - they need to have University qualifications to call themselves that - and those qualifications can be immediately checked with the Aussie Inst of Architects - which is the only legal governing body for architects.

I agree - it CAN be useful to do some amateur research before approaching an architect - but here in OZ you don't get too fixed on some brillant amateur idea just to have the architect tell you that such a thing is legally impossible to build!

Of course such 'impossibilites' existed with things like 'adobe construction' in the early days, but most Councils have at least heard of it, and won't just stonewall you now.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:23 AM

We have building codes and inspectors, but they're variably qualified depending on the local jurisdictions. Lots of public buildings would be required to comply with Federal (OSHA) regulations, and the widespread enforcement of the "higher level" standards has caused fairly good specs to filter down to local levels.

But I do seem to recall that even Frank Lloyd ("never built a roof that didn't leak") Wright had "University qualifications." Brilliant, perhaps. Great Designer, maybe. Outstanding promoter, probably. But calling himself an architect was outright fraud. (Just a personal opinion, shared by quite a few architects.)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:52 AM

JohnInKansas: was that tongue-in-cheek? If not, try standing inside the Unitarian church in Madison, WI during a heavy rain!

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:20 AM

The results are clear - about as many people are bothered by alternating colors as are helped. But everyone seems to like a contrasting strip on the edges.

Another result - handrails are essential. I knew that already.

We do have an architect, but given her hourly rate, it's good to go in for a talk with information and opinions at hand.

I believe I have enough data now. My nephew's wedding is in a few days, and I may or may not be back.

Thanks so much for contributing!

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Alice
Date: 09 May 06 - 02:26 PM

Remember that the color VALUE (dark/light) is more important than different colors on the steps or edge of the step.
Some people are color blind, so the contrast of dark and light is more important than having different colors. Good luck.

alice

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:56 PM

also .. wiiide steps helps , with room enough for huuuge feet. then all the normal feet will feel quite comfy!

Subject: RE: BS: Pls help with a survey on stairs
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:38 PM

Another thing:----Avoid synthetic carpets on stairs. People have a tendancy to to build up a static charge on them, and then refuse to use the hand rails, as the static discharge hurts.

A BIG chemical plant had a hideous accident rate due to this. The huge dist. columns were safe, the office stairs were not...