Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:04 AM

To be 'proud' of being English as depicted in Billy Bragg's
The Few which I referred to several posts above but no-one has taken up is sinful and racist. It is also extremely ignorant, disrespectful and doing exactly what the far right wants; dividing the population against itself. Banning the flying of a St George's flag is entirely justified in view of the way it's meaning has been hijacked and besmirched to such an extent that the perception of most nowadays is that it represents to them the kind of mentality portrayed in the song. In London, St George's Day is celebrated with Morris Dancing in Covent Garden and on the South Bank but the reaction of tourists, English and not alike, to the appearance of St George's flags is to ask who England is playing at football. Unless and until the national emblem is reclaimed it's best left unfurled.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:17 AM

countess richard wrote: "Unless and until the national emblem is reclaimed it's best left unfurled."
----------------------------------------

But I don't see how it (the English 'St George's cross' flag) can be reclaimed (from hijacking by the far right) unless we the English assert our right to fly the flag as our national emblem, and get that message across that this is not being racist but that we are simply celebrating our Englishness. Leaving the flag unfurled is just capitulating to the far right and will just make it easier for them to continue their evil racist campaigning.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: old salty
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:43 AM

Show of hands-are my absolute favourite band in the land.For all those whom are not sure see them live!! You will soon agree. Phil beers blind fiddler is un-real.Great for the step machine and calf muscles.steve is well, makes me wish i was a guitar string!!:)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:51 AM

Does the 'national emblem' really have to be the flag attributed to a medieval, middle-eastern, possibly not mythical bloke with no connection whatsoever to this country and who serves also as a patron saint to all sorts of other places? I don't think anyone is suggesting the monumental task of trying to reclaim the swastika which started off merely as an early christian symbol. Emblems are purely symbolic and once people get the idea that they have come to mean something horrific they are perhaps better dropped. It is surely far more meaningful and of infinitely greater importance to preserve, uphold and build upon our cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 05:59 AM

Scrump, Jon is English, born in Shrophire of English parents but lived in Wales for much of his life.

What you doen't seem to get is that while the Union Jack is sort of "universally accepted" by the English, the other nations have not always been entirely happy with this Union.

One could argue that the Union Jack itself has contributed towards the other nations wanting to be proud of thier nationality and maintaining thier identity rather than swallowed up in Britain (the all conquring English and thier "unions". In other words, it's not wanting the Union Jack that has helped

There is more than a touch of irony in England, wanting the flag that they "inflicted" on the other nations back to get thier identity, don't you think? "It's my flag too" seem a bit odd, don't you think?

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong in wanting to be English, enjoying English culture, etc.

Again though, I do find an element of humour in this song. It's style and performance seems to me to owe more to the "American Pie" culture than to the English musical heritage it is apparantly concerned about.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:00 AM

>>Unless and until the national emblem is reclaimed it's best left unfurled.

Diane, Billy certainly unfurled a rather large St Georges flag in Manchester at the Bridgewater Hall gig on the "Hope Not Hate" tour, and very much made the point that the symbol SHOULD be reclaimed from the far right. I assume he did the same at the Shepherd's Bush gig you were looking forward too?

Judging from what I saw up and down my road during the World Cup, and on various cars, THAT symbol of "Englishness" at least is well on its way to being back to being owned by everyone.

"Roots" is a great song, and as long as those singing it also understand the issues behind "English, Half English" (and on the whole most reasonable people in this country do), there isn't a problem.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM

Yes! Scrump understands!!!

Diane (countess)....WHAT *are* you on about???

It's because of *that* attitude that we're all in such a mess anyway! By giving in to racists and allowing them and ONLY them to fly the flag we are committing a HUGE mistake!

And THAT is what Roots is surely saying? It's time to take that flag away from the racists, the football hooligans etc...and put it BACK into the hands of people who truly care what England is about, what we stand for and where we're going!!

England, imo, is one of the most tolerant and welcoming places in the world. There will always be racists, in every single country, it sadly goes with the nature of some humans, you'll never stop it, but you can water it down to such an extent that it loses it's power..and you can all join together to make your flag stand for the most positive and uplifting things imaginable....

And that's what we have to do....not hide in corners, apologising for ourselves or wringing our hands over the racists and the slobs, whilst offering them our flag and saying "Here you take it, we don't want it anymore, let it become *your* symbol. It's too much trouble to fight back...and besides...Big Brother's on and I so have to watch that!"

WHAT made us all walk away in the first place?

WHY did we stop loving ourselves as a nation?

WHO decided to only bring up every negative thing about the English?

WHERE have all the 'wonderful' things about this country been buried?

And WHEN are we all going to come to our senses, dig them up and start rejoicing in ourselves once more?


Billy Bragg? Diane...do you mean the same Billy who's busy trying to do just what I've described above....to make OUR flag stand for all the right things again, along with many others, Phil and Steve very much included?


Lizzie

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:08 AM

Flag flying to me is akin to a dog marking his territory. Anyone who has visited Northern Ireland within the last thirty years will understand what I mean.
Why the need to fly a flag to establish your Englishness? If you're not proud of it by now you never will be.
I'm really at a loss to understand how waving a flag will make the slightest bit of difference to your/our lives.
I associate flag waving with conflict or a senseless homage to outmoded institutions that haven't the slightest relevance to me.
The outside worlds' perception of our Englishness should be set by our good example, understanding, compassion and tolerance towards othersn not our flag waving.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:09 AM

Sorry Keith, posted at the same time as you there!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:12 AM

Yes! Scrump understands!!!

So well that he thought my comments on the Union Jack were not made by an Englishman.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:32 AM

By giving in to racists and allowing them and ONLY them to fly the flag

Whoever said that? No-one. 'lizziecornish' may be able to find a literacy tutor in South Devon. She needs one.

I love Billy Bragg dearly but I'm not him. Flag-waving is a dubious and highly dangerous activity. This applies more than most to the Union Flag (not Jack) as anyone would discover after a cursory study of the making of the union. Such A Parcel Of Rogues In One Nation springs to mind.

England, imo, is one of the most tolerant and welcoming places in the world

You are surely fantasising. This country has made use of immigrants after colonising their own lands and made it impossible for them to eke an existence there, then made them extremely unwelcome as soon as domestic economics downturns made them surplus to requirements. Even Germany was a bit more upfront and less hypocritical by refusing to grant nationality to their Gastarbeiter influx but continued to treat them as economoc commodities and thus as exportable unemployment statistics.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:35 AM

. . . oh, and btw, 'lizziecornish'. I thought you had turned against BB because he had the temerity to stand up to your monster capitalistic mate Murdoch over the MySpace attempted ripoff?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:46 AM

Nope, I've never 'turned against' BB Diane. Take a look at the Myspace threads where I've praised him...

From you:

"Whoever said that? No-one. 'lizziecornish' may be able to find a literacy tutor in South Devon. She needs one."

From me:

'Physician heal thyself' and then get thee a geography teacher Diane...I'm in East Devon... ;0)


From you:

"You are surely fantasising. This country has made use of immigrants after colonising their own lands and made it impossible for them to eke an existence there, then made them extremely unwelcome as soon as domestic economics downturns made them surplus to requirements. Even Germany was a bit more upfront and less hypocritical by refusing to grant nationality to their Gastarbeiter influx but continued to treat them as economoc commodities and thus as exportable unemployment statistics."



WHY are you SO STUCK in the past Diane????? That's half the problem! The hatreds from centuries brought into the present and carried forward to the future.....The PAST has GONE Diane!! We ARE...NOW...one of the most tolerant and welcoming countries in the world...move on....or at least bring some of our great history out as well as the bad...That's EXCATLY what I was talking about earlier...

The Rotten English! Damn Them All To Hell! Look At What They Did!

Yes....LOOK at what we did....but LOOK in a balanced way, not with the scales constantly loaded up with negative weights!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:50 AM

Nothing worse than capital letters back to front is there! ;0) Woops! Blushing Smiley.....EXACTLY....

Oh heck...I'm becoming pedantic!

Save me, Oh God Of The Messageboards...Save me!


Changing the thread slightly, but not really...


So what DOES 'Being English' actually mean to people these days then?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:51 AM

The hatreds from centuries brought into the present and carried forward to the future.....The PAST has GONE Diane!!

Lizzie, even in Wales, I can find you living people who remember having to wear a placard round thier neck as a punishment for daring to speak Welsh in a Welsh school.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: alanabit
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:54 AM

One of my friends commented to me during the World Cup that he was really glad that so many Germans were showing the flag. He saw it as one in the eye for the ultra right and fascist thugs. In view of the fact that the World Cup represented all that was friendly, open and international about Germany, I think he was right. It was a bad month for the bigots.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:58 AM

I used to think 'lizziecornish' got all her bizarre and dangerous imperialistic notions from Daily Mail leaders but now it seems she isn't even reading THAT rag, reporting as it does with glee the latest Home Office promise to rid our shores of 'failed asylum seekers', possibly by the end of next week. Tolerant and welcoming? Stand by now for the anti-Polish onslaught: 'over here, taking our jobs, houses, health care (ha! actualy, they're providing all these). What'll you want to do? Deport the Warsaw Village Band?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

Of course we would all like to see the past forgiven and to move on. I don't really see flag waving as a way forward though.

Although my own tastes do tend me mostly to Irish music, I'd say get out and join in with singing, playing or dancing to the music. It really is the best way. Tell others who much you have enjoyed doing this and invite them too if they show an interst...

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:02 AM

countess richard wrote: Does the 'national emblem' really have to be the flag attributed to a medieval, middle-eastern, possibly not mythical bloke with no connection whatsoever to this country and who serves also as a patron saint to all sorts of other places? I don't think anyone is suggesting the monumental task of trying to reclaim the swastika which started off merely as an early christian symbol. Emblems are purely symbolic and once people get the idea that they have come to mean something horrific they are perhaps better dropped. It is surely far more meaningful and of infinitely greater importance to preserve, uphold and build upon our cultural heritage.
Good point countess, but I don't think the St George's cross has become quite as unpopular as the swastika - at least I hope not.

If we abandon the St George's cross we would have to invent another emblem, assuming we need one at all? See below.
-----------------------------------------------
GUEST,Jon wrote: "Scrump, Jon is English, born in Shrophire of English parents but lived in Wales for much of his life."
OK I was wrong, sorry.
What you doen't seem to get is that while the Union Jack is sort of "universally accepted" by the English, the other nations have not always been entirely happy with this Union.

One could argue that the Union Jack itself has contributed towards the other nations wanting to be proud of thier nationality and maintaining thier identity rather than swallowed up in Britain (the all conquring English and thier "unions". In other words, it's not wanting the Union Jack that has helped
Point taken, but I think 'Roots' is saying they don't want the Union Flag (Jack) any more than the other nations - they want to reclaim the English flag 'back' from it. I agree that the Union Flag has become associated with the far right more than the St George's cross.
There is more than a touch of irony in England, wanting the flag that they "inflicted" on the other nations back to get thier identity, don't you think? "It's my flag too" seem a bit odd, don't you think?
Possibly. I'm aware of the history and why every other nation seems to hate England, but things have changed somewhat in recent years so that some would say the balance has swung against England (e.g. the West Lothian question) and all we are saying is it's time we got back to a level playing field.
Although I'm English born and bred, I have Irish, Scots and Welsh ancestry and I like to see (and join in with!) each nation celebrating their national identity. I would like the English to be able to do the same without being frowned upon by other nations or by our own authorities.

Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong in wanting to be English, enjoying English culture, etc.

Again though, I do find an element of humour in this song. It's style and performance seems to me to owe more to the "American Pie" culture than to the English musical heritage it is apparantly concerned about.
LOL :-)
-------------------------------
JamesHenry wrote:Flag flying to me is akin to a dog marking his territory. Anyone who has visited Northern Ireland within the last thirty years will understand what I mean.
Why the need to fly a flag to establish your Englishness? If you're not proud of it by now you never will be.
I'm really at a loss to understand how waving a flag will make the slightest bit of difference to your/our lives.
I associate flag waving with conflict or a senseless homage to outmoded institutions that haven't the slightest relevance to me.
The outside worlds' perception of our Englishness should be set by our good example, understanding, compassion and tolerance towards othersn not our flag waving.
Very good point, JamesHenry. But the world would be more boring without the annual celebrations (St Patrick's Day, etc.) that go with national identity in a harmless way, without any overtones of racism or xenophobia.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:19 AM

From Diane:

"I used to think 'lizziecornish' got all her bizarre and dangerous imperialistic notions from Daily Mail leaders but now it seems she isn't even reading THAT rag, reporting as it does with glee the latest Home Office promise to rid our shores of 'failed asylum seekers', possibly by the end of next week. Tolerant and welcoming? Stand by now for the anti-Polish onslaught: 'over here, taking our jobs, houses, health care (ha! actualy, they're providing all these). What'll you want to do? Deport the Warsaw Village Band?"

SORRY???????

What makes you think I'm imperialistic Diane? I know you've also called me fascist and racist in the past,(????) (!!!!) but this is a brand new one?

You see, this thread is exactly what the song is about!

As soon as you dare to stick your head above the parapet and whisper...

"Hello guys...er...I'm sort of er...English and I might be just getting er a bit proud of that...is er that OK?"

....Down swoop the PC vultures, pecking out hopeful eyes with their negative beaks, squawking and squealing, name calling and twisting......

SHEESH!!!!!

By the way, we have POLISH dentists all over Devon and Cornwall now...it brings a whole new meaning to having your teeth 'scaled and polished' I guess..... ;0)

(Wait for the cries of "Racist Dental Joke! Off with her head!" to start up) ;0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:55 AM

Our dentist is Irish, name of Phil McCavity.
I know it's ancient but it still makes me smile.

I don't think that you need a literacy tutor lizziecornish but a few sessions in the art of self-assertiveness may help to convince others of your pride in being English.

"Hello guys (an Americanism)...er...I'm sort of er...English and I might just be getting er a bit proud of that...is er that OK?"
doesn't sound very convincing, does it?

Most of my posts are not about having a go at you. This perception is another delusion that you are experiencing. The debate is about the sentiments expressed in "Roots" and it seems that every time someones' opinion differs from yours you take it as a personal attack. Not everything is about you, opinions differ, ours obviously do. Try to argue objectively and I'll do my utmost to do the same.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:10 AM

You argue your way JamesHenry, I'll argue mine, be it with 'guys' or 'chaps' depending on how I'm feeling. I'm not into controlling the way people write or speak. Good joke though. Thanks for that.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:19 AM

Our dentist is Irish, name of Phil McCavity.

Our dentist is from South Africa. Perhaps he Boers holes?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 08:30 AM

>>I don't think anyone is suggesting the monumental task of trying to reclaim the swastika which started off merely as an early christian symbol<<

The very emotive swastika is a lot older than that, and seems to have started out as a Hindu and Budhist symbol.

You still see lots of them around in the Indian sub-continent, and indeed the 1 billion people there have never really lost them. There is much head-shaking in this house whenever I hear anyone advocating the extension of the current German ban on its display to all Europe, because those that do are just being as intolerant of the wider world,in some ways, as those that perverted the symbol in the first place.

I'm not sure how one says "It's my swastika too and I want it back in Hindu, Urdu or Tamil", but the principal is the same.

All these things, such as flags, are simply symbols of what they represent. It is just we human beings cling to such symbols because on the whole they help rather than hinder expression.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST, swami
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 09:25 AM

As this article says,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4188141.stm

Hindus do in fact want to reclaim the swastika.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTrobertlouis
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:56 PM

I'm a Scot who has lived in England for more than 20 years. Yes, I'm a SoH fan. And I don't find anything offensive or intimidating in SK's lyrics. He just happens to capture the voices and feelings of otherwise disenfranchised people in the countryside and on the coast in the west country. Roots is highly polemical and while it's the most immediately catchy, accessible and overtly commercial track on Witness after the Falmouth Packet, a lot of the other tracks contain far better lyrics - he is one of the more mature and thoughtful songwriters around right now.

That's the SoH piece in my context.

Now the flag. Phewww. I'd always seen the English stereotype as lacking in passion, middle of the road, C of E etc - not here. If you could harness the emotions expressed here positively you'd rebuild your cultural identity in no time. But you do need to rebuild it. It's a mongrel, borrowing promiscuously to the point where its real identity has all but disappeared. And that's where SK is right. But during the recent world cup did I feel intimidated by beer-swilling louts waving the flag and daring anyone not to conform? You bet I did. You have a long, long way to go to get the St George's flag back from the simplistic xenophobia that marks out the territory of most of those who wave it. National identity isn't about symbols - they are dangerous and get hi-jacked and manipulated.

And to those who say up above that they're not racist but they'd cheerfully send the Scottish and Welsh politicians back, just remember that Scotland and Wales eliminated the Tories completely from their electoral maps in the 80s but still had to put up with 18 years of those mad English Tory bastards.

Yours cordially

Robert Louis

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:30 PM

ROBERT LOUIS FOR PRIME MINISTER OF ENGLAND!!!

Kick out Tony and his well known band John Prescott And The Agribarons!

'Tis that Celtic blood...you see...we English need a Celtic blood transfusion! I think we need to take to kilts.....that may help!

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTRobertlouis
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Lizzie

Bit of an "oops" there, m'dear.

No wish to be PM of England, if it's all the same to you. I'm deeply honoured but I think the right geographical term is "Britain".

You've just inadvertently jabbed my most tender patriotic Scots spot with a very sharp thistle.

Don't get me started - it won't be pretty..........

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 02:42 PM

Blair's band was The Ugly Rumours, Plenty of those about, and he's quite Scottish. So's the Chancellor who's very Scottish. So are they Celts? The Ancient Britons were quite Pictish which I think is fairly Celtic but they live in Ireland now. The early English were Angles (or Saxons or Jutes), i.e. West Europeans. The kilt came from Assyria (or somewhere like that) which is probably in Turkey now. Does that help? I hope not.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:08 PM

Robert Louis

As I'm now on a terrible guilt trip about thistles and kilts! (Cross-eyed Smiley!...I thought I'd better show you that we English really care about you Scots....so here's a vast amount of Celtic music for you...completely free!

http://www.myspace.com/celticmoonrising


Lizzie :0)

PS...You can 'Prime Minister' the entire country Robbie......no worries! ;0)

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTRobertlouis
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

Blair's band was The Ugly Rumours, Plenty of those about, and he's quite Scottish. So's the Chancellor who's very Scottish. So are they Celts? The Ancient Britons were quite Pictish which I think is fairly Celtic but they live in Ireland now. The early English were Angles (or Saxons or Jutes), i.e. West Europeans. The kilt came from Assyria (or somewhere like that) which is probably in Turkey now. Does that help? I hope not.

My dear Countess

Can I suggest you sleep on the above quote, read it again in the cold light of day and then in your own good time try to explain again the point you're trying to make. It totally escapes me.

I think I've seen enough and will go back to my own part of the planet where there is some occasional sanity.

Oh, and by the way, the Picts were and continue to be a mystery to both historians and philologists amongst others. Their language and culture were quite different from anything in the Celtic pantheon. My forebears all came from Fife which was the centre of the Pictish culture - it's called the kingdom to this day. So please don't air shallow myth and try to generalise your prejudices under the guise of false knowledge.

Goodnight all - I'm off to Lebanon. Makes more sense than this lot.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 03:11 AM

I'm off to Lebanon

To research St George's geneology?

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Guest Robertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 04:23 AM

Now THAT's actually quite funny!

But remember what I said about symbols........

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:33 AM

Could we have a reality check here. Working on the premise that there is no such thing as bad publicity - except no publicity at all, I bet SoH are lapping this up.
Here we have two talented performers involved in the folk industry whose output occasionally throws up a gem but I happen to think that "Roots" isn't one of them. They know their target audience well and the sentiments expressed in this song will give a voice to all who feel as if they have been disenfranchised and who see their way of life slipping away from them. As I've said before it could also appeal to the loony right. It's preaching to the converted.
Now the lad who wrote it probably only wrote what was in his heart at the time, liked what he heard and decided to include it on the album with the aim of hitting his target audience, selling lots of albums and making a living.
The song won't change the world. The majority of people who live in the real world and spend every day working hard to make ends meet won't, if they hear the song, see it as part of the second coming. They will get on with their lives and SoH will move on to their next project.
Things change through peoples' actions, the example that they set and how they treat others, not through a song, no matter how pleasant or controversial it is.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,GUESTRobertlouis
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 05:45 AM

A calm voice of sanity and objectivity, thank you James

If it stays like this I might stick around, so this is your last chance to go way over the top and chase me away.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:16 AM

Thinking of going, RL? Samoa might be nice . . .

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:25 AM

I disagree with JamesHenry I'm afraid.

The only reason this thread is so interesting, so passionate and indeed here AT ALL, is because of a song and the words/message within that song. The whole point of 'Roots' is that it inflames passions and when that happens people begin to talk, discuss, argue...and...THINK!!!

So many people don't think anymore! They've turned away and just carry on with a very miniscule part of life's picture, no longer wanting to look at the bigger image.

We NEED to find out who we are once more and to be proud of that. There's nothing wrong with having pride in your country if your country stands for something wonderful! Yes we're all British, but something profoundly odd, and imo also profoundly wrong, has been visited upon the English people over the last 15 years or more and we very much need to talk about it, air our views, rant and rage...scoff, laugh, whatever....anything that will bring it all out into the open again and get us searching for WHO we really are...

'Roots' is doing just that. Imagine this thread enlarged millions of times over, if this song were allowed 'out' into the mainstream, because that's would happen....

Music, above all else, has the power to nowadays reach millions of people. You only have to see the way an idea in Myspace can snowball so quickly. If the right song gets out there amazing things can happen. The difficulty is in getting these songs to be heard. Once, they would have been, but....very few people think about why 'Roots' or other songs aren't permitted in mainstream radio anymore...Could it be because those in power don't want people thinking too deeply?

After all....dumbed down proles are happy proles aren't they?

I feel deeply that the English have lost their way, generally speaking...and it's interesting that despite me raising the question of "What does being English mean to you these days?" not one person has come back on that.

Music with a message, such as 'Roots' is like this:

"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas." George Bernard Shaw

And so it is with music. The more musical 'ideas' that are heard and exchanged the more they will grow....


"IF THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE CHANGED IN THIS WORLD THEN IT CAN ONLY HAPPEN THROUGH MUSIC" Jimi Hendrix

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:31 AM

Bollocks, LC. (Sorry again, eunuchs).

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:34 AM

The whole point of 'Roots' is that it inflames passions

Your passion perhaps but not mine.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:47 AM

Sorry Lizzie. I'm with the Countess on this one.
Songs change nothing (Though I wish they could).
Many people. Dylan, Baez, Rosselson, McColl, etc, etc.....have tried to change the world (and I agree with much that was written)
Sadly The only people who can change the world are Governments....(You know those people that fuel the arms race, bomb other countries etc)
With the best will in the world. SOH will change nothing...and it's not even that good a song....It's OK...but.

It all stays the same.

Don't mean to put you down, but, look at the larger picture.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

countess, methinks you're more than a little peeved about 'Roots' and the effect it's starting to have...

Another good sign! ;0) I'm glad you don't write songs btw, I don't think your use of the English language would catch on, unless you're writing for Vicky Pollard I suppose....Is that your vision of the New Eng...er...land then?

Passions, Potions and Poisons Jon.

It would be a sorry world if we all felt the same.

One Man's Passion Is Another Mman's Poison......

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 06:48 AM

Oh Ye Of Little Faith Guest! ;0) x

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

A New England is exactly what I think. Don't pin your hopes on yesterday's satellites. Well said that Mr Bragg.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

Lizzie.

Have you ever realised just how negative the effects of your posts have been to two honest musicians?
They send their message through their songs. Fair enough, and fair play to them.

I'm sure they don't need needlesss sycophancy.

So, Please Stop It.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:23 AM

Uh Oh...A 'Guest' :-(

>>>GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:01 AM

Lizzie.

Have you ever realised just how negative the effects of your posts have been to two honest musicians?
They send their message through their songs. Fair enough, and fair play to them.

I'm sure they don't need needlesss sycophancy.

So, Please Stop It. <<<



Diane....Sorry, can't resist this! ;0)

Could you please stop talking about Billy Bragg, for in the words of 'Guest' above, it might be having a very negative effect on him! I'm sure he doesn't need endless sycophancy! So please stop it! ;0)

Ye Gods And Uncut Toenails!

Preserve me from Moaning Minnie 'Guests'

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:46 AM

LC. 'twas you who mentioned A New England though you've clearly never listened to it. And, hey, you missed a Tams reference, or is he off your fave list now? Phew, bet he's relieved . . .

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:54 AM

From: GUEST,GUESTrobertlouis:
I'm a Scot who has lived in England for more than 20 years. Yes, I'm a SoH fan. And I don't find anything offensive or intimidating in SK's lyrics. He just happens to capture the voices and feelings of otherwise disenfranchised people in the countryside and on the coast in the west country. Roots is highly polemical and while it's the most immediately catchy, accessible and overtly commercial track on Witness after the Falmouth Packet, a lot of the other tracks contain far better lyrics - he is one of the more mature and thoughtful songwriters around right now.

That's the SoH piece in my context.

Now the flag. Phewww. I'd always seen the English stereotype as lacking in passion, middle of the road, C of E etc - not here. If you could harness the emotions expressed here positively you'd rebuild your cultural identity in no time. But you do need to rebuild it. It's a mongrel, borrowing promiscuously to the point where its real identity has all but disappeared. And that's where SK is right. But during the recent world cup did I feel intimidated by beer-swilling louts waving the flag and daring anyone not to conform? You bet I did. You have a long, long way to go to get the St George's flag back from the simplistic xenophobia that marks out the territory of most of those who wave it. National identity isn't about symbols - they are dangerous and get hi-jacked and manipulated.

And to those who say up above that they're not racist but they'd cheerfully send the Scottish and Welsh politicians back, just remember that Scotland and Wales eliminated the Tories completely from their electoral maps in the 80s but still had to put up with 18 years of those mad English Tory bastards.

Good post GUEST,GUESTrobertlouis. On the last paragraph, I'd just like to say that when I said this:
The song is not saying the English want the Scots or Welsh, or any other race, to be thrown out of England (although there are one or two Scots and Welshmen in high places that I for one would be glad to see the back of ;-)).

I was referring to a few members of our government - all right, I'll name them: Blair and Prescott - who I'd be happy to see the back of. But it's not *because* they happen to be (respectively) Scottish and Welsh, but because I think they've overstayed their welcome. It was a light-hearted remark in passing, indicated by the smiley. Just thought I'd make that clear!

As for 'Roots' I don't think it's SOH's best song by any means, but it's great fun nonetheless.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 07:57 AM

The thing that connects Roots, A New England and American Pie is that they are all have great singalong choruses. Indeed, I have had the privelege of being asked to join in by the writers of the first two during this year, and in the case of Roots it was several times. I haven't had the chance to sing along with American Pie quite so recently (last time was in 2003), but then Don McLean doesn't visit my part of the World quite as often. I think I understand the lyrical content of Roots and A New England rather better than American Pie, but that is still a fine song. I have to confess that the last time anyone persuaded me to kick off my shoes and dance it was to American Pie and it was in Cuba of all places. So idealogical divides are sometimes bridgeable. Crossing them just often takes a lot of work. Songs won't do it all but they sometimes can help.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:17 AM

Yes we're all British, but something profoundly odd, and imo also profoundly wrong, has been visited upon the English people over the last 15 years or more and we very much need to talk about it,

And that's where we part company, Liz. The decaying of the root of being 'British' is far, far older than 15 years - 150 would be nearer the mark, I would say, and I don't think that the last 15 years are fundamentally distinctive.

Incidentally, I saw Show of Hands a year or two back where one of the intros was a story about when they were in a pub in Piddletown (if I remember correctly) and sang some songs collected from there - absolutely no recognition from the locals. After explaining the background, SK was told to wait until Old Fred came in because "he knows all the old songs."   After an hour or two in he came - and the old songs he knew were all commercial hits from around the 50's.
To my mind, it is that sort of loss he is talking about.

No doubt as a fan you've also heard that tale, and can probably remember it better than me.

Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 27 Jul 06 - 08:18 AM

Ahhh..still at it I see, discussing the pros and cons of this song...just here to remind you (and you know who you are) that the next revolution needs to be paid for, now: will that be cash, Visa, Mastercharge, or American Express?


Have a great day everyone ;-)