Real Ale v Lager

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,scientist
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 09:15 PM

Most real ale drinkers are hypocrites.

A mate of mine makes a big deal out of "real ale" sneering at my lovely pint of Fosters saying "It's full of chemicals" whilst I know for a fact that he lives on a diet of cheap sausages, pies and McDonalds.

Small groups of bearded scruffs congregate in my local pub whingeing about "It's a bit cloudy" "Tastes a bit off" "It's the end of the barrel" "It's a new barrel" "They don't serve a lot, so it's a bit stale" What a load of shite - they should not make excuses for stuff they have paid good money for, they should take it back to the bar and ask for a replacement or a refund.

I came upon another two friends at a new session started in a new venue. They both had long faces. "they haven't got any REAL ale, so we won't be coming here again" I have known these two for abot 5 years they usualy drink no more than a coke and a shandy, sometimes bottled water and a wine spritzer - what a load of bollox.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Ref
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Spent ten days in Gloucestershire-Cheltenham area last spring. Got LOTS of real ale inside me. No hangovers or big heads involved, maybe because of the real ale, maybe because of the surprisingly superb food served alongside. Here in USA I brew my own, but there's lots of good micro ales available. Mass market American beer is actually brewed to very exacting standards. Being mass market, though, they can't get too heavily onto distinctive flavors. After years of homebrew, the MM beers just taste light and sweet to me, but they're great cold quenchers when you're hot and sweaty.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 08:45 AM

Hey, Ron - I agree with your post above (11:41 AM)

Maybe I'll join you guys for a beer... Cheers! :-D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:50 PM

Yer on, Ron, Ron, Ron
Yer on, Ron, Ron

(To add a musical flavour)

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:14 PM

Dave, next time you are in the states we can sit down and discuss it over a few pints!! I would be honored to buy you a few rounds and let you sample our best!

Belgian ale is hard to beat because the natural yeast and methods, and style is difficult to reproduce in another country. We do have a very good brewery that is brewing "Belgian style" ale - Ommergang.

I did not mean to say that U.S. beers surpass others. Some do. Some do not. Overall, the U.S. microbrew industry has done an excellent job at boosting these styles and quality.   I do think that we have more opportunities and create some very unique beers. Read Michael Jackson's work (not the pop star - the U.K. based beer and whiskey critic) and he will confirm.    There are outstanding beers all over the globe. Most people think of Bud and Coors when they think of U.S. beer and that is wrong!   I have to admit to buy both - they work great on keeping slugs out of the garden.

I sort of see your point about the usage of language. From a culinary point of view I do stand by what I've said. Local usage may vary, but it doesn't mean it is right - just hard to change.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:53 PM

During a 2 week stay in the St Louis Area I only managed to visit 2 micro breweries (1 in St Louis and 1 in St Charles, Illinois) but I was lucky enough to sample beers from at least 10 different ones:-) They are by far the best I have tried for a long time and have a bigger range than most in the UK. Only in Belgium did I find a better range of equivalent beers. I was there over 3 months though:-) Maybe if I stopped in the US that long I would find that it surpasses even the Belgians!

I am not disputing anything about the quality of US beer, Ron, and I don't think anything I said suggested otherwise. Sorry if it came across that way. The whole point is that there are probaby as many different views on this are there are beers (or ales)! None is right or wrong. They are just different. Taking an absolute standpint on this is aking to trying to tell everyone here what real folk music is - No one will ever agree.

The funny thing is that I generaly agree with your definitions but there are exceptions, particulary where you allow for the peculiarity of language. Adams ale is certainly not a beer by any stretch of the imagination;-)

Cheers

D.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:41 AM

I think we are saying the same thing, in different words.

I NEVER, EVER said that all beer would be called ale. I am not sure where that came from.

I would not call a keg lager an ale. I would call a keg ale an ale, I would call a keg lager a lager.

All ales are beers, but not all beers are ales.

All lagers are beers, but not all beer is lager.

Ale and lager are beers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:27 AM

Yes, ale and beer are defined as the same thing. I'm just trying to explain that in the UK (it may be different in the US) the terms have different nuances in meaning, i.e. in everyday usage of the terms in the UK. These nuances are nothing to do with quality, just the type of ale or beer being referred to.

So, here you can call any beer (including stout, porter, mild, bitter, fruit beer, light ale, dark ale, lager, etc., etc., etc.) a beer. But you wouldn't normally call some of these 'ales' (even if technically it might be correct to so so).

It's nothing to do with quality, it's just custom or convention. So calling something an 'ale' doesn't necessarily imply that it's higher quality than if you call it beer (which is what Ron seemed to think we were saying earlier).

It's just that certain types of beer would not be called 'ales'. The example I gave was keg lager. Yes, you could call it ale, but no-one does, to my knowledge.

So all ales are beers, but not all beers are ales, in our usage of the terms, even if the dictionary says the two terms mean the same thing.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:09 AM

Dave, I guess we do have a problem with the language barrier.

What is confusing the hell out of me is that there seems to some sort of distinction being made that is coming out as "ale is not beer".   It has nothing to do with American or British brewing.   Ale is beer, pure and simple. Every country that brews beer would recognize that, yet there still seems to be a reluctance - even when you are supposedly ageeing with me.   Ale is a style of beer.

As to which brewing industry is doing a better job, it isn't age that determines skill. There are simply more craft brewers in the United States who are doing wonderful things with a variety of styles. Many styles that would have otherwise been forgotten have been resurrected. If you ever get to this side of the Atlantic, I will be happy to give you a taste test. I am sure if you tasted some of our pale ales, IPA's and bitters you would see the difference.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:00 AM

If you read the full definition I posted, Ron, you will see that the writer agrees with what you say. So do I. At the end of the definition it says, "Nowadays ale is used to refer to top fermented bitter (British) beers, as compared to bottom fermented lager (American, German, Australian, etc.) beers. That meaning would not have been valid in Pepys' time as true lagers only appeared in the 19th century". Which I would also agree with.

I am not sure of your statement - "Wrong! Ale is beer." though. It suggests that the American language definition and by association your own is somehow better than anyone elses. I am sure you are right and I have no wish to argue personaly but to argue with the generic 'Brit' that either the American language or American brewing industry is somehow better than the longer established English one is, in my opinion, somewhat foolhardy:-)

Cheers

:D

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:40 AM

Sorry Alec, I will try to type slower in the future.

Ale is beer. Lager is beer. Ale and Lager are beers. If Dave's distinction were true what you would be drinking would not contain hops. It does.

From what I am reading in thses posts, it seems that most of you folks living in the UK feel that "beer" is lager. Lager is merely a type of beer, just as ale is.


"I didn't say anything about 'ale' being 'better' than 'beer', and I can't see that Dave did"
Scrump, I realize that you are saying that ale and beer are the same thing, but the others do not seem to be saying that at all. No one would call keg lager an ale, that would not make sense. No one would call a keg of ale a lager either. Both are kegs of beer.

There still seems to be a reluctance to that fact when people say things such as "beer and ale are not necessarily the same."   Ale is beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

Yes, originally (many centuries ago, I can't remember when but it doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion) the term 'ale' referred to unhopped beer, and 'beer' was hopped. The latter was an idea brought across to Britain from the continent, that was adopted in Britain because the hops' preservative properties gave the ale a longer shelf life.

But gradually the distinction between ale and beer was lost, and the two terms came to mean the same thing (partly because hardly any beer was made unhopped after a while, once hopping of beer in the UK became widespread and people had acquired the taste).

As we discussed higher up this thread, Ron, I was trying to explain that although the two terms mean the same thing literally, in today's everyday usage in the UK at least, it seems that 'beer' is a more generic term that can be used to cover any type of beer, whether it's lager, stout, bitter, draught [draft] or bottled, etc.

Whereas 'ale' has a more limited usage. For example, I've never heard anyone call a keg lager an 'ale' - yes, you could, but no-one does. I'm talking about the usage of the words, not their dictionary definitions.

I didn't say anything about 'ale' being 'better' than 'beer', and I can't see that Dave did. I agree with you that to claim so that would be incorrect. I don't know where you got that impression from, Ron, but I don't believe most people here (us 'Brits') believe that at all, i.e. that something called 'ale' is better than something called 'beer'.

You seem to have inferred that without it having been said, unless I missed something?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:17 AM

"Ale is Beer" All ales are beers but most beers are not ales.
The distinction outlined by Dave is still in use and still valid.
"There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it ale makes it somehow better"
Sorry WFDU I recognise all of the words in that "sentence" but in that configuration I cannot ascertain their meaning.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:02 AM

Sorry Dave, that description expired in 1664.   

There seems to be a reluctance among you Brits to realize that you drink "beer" and by calling it "ale" makes it somehow better. Wrong!! Ale is beer.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:48 AM

My undersatnding of the difference between ale and beer ties in with some others I have seen including pepysdiary.com which says -

"Difference between Ale and Beer:
Officially beer is hopped and ale isn't, but that distinction isn't strictly observed. Hops preserve beer, as well as giving it its bitter flavour. Kent is the region of England famed for its hops, but Pepys talks of Margate (in Kent) ale as though it is famous, so the difference seems already to have been lost by 1660. (why brew a hopless ale in a hop growing region?)
Nowadays ale is used to refer to top fermented bitter (British) beers, as compared to bottom fermented lager (American, German, Australian, etc.) beers. That meaning would not have been valid in Pepys' time as true lagers only appeared in the 19th century"

So, beer and ale are not necessarily the same!

Interesting that Pinot Noir should be used as an example. Why use Noir (black) and Gris (grey) rather than Rouge or Blanc like other wine varieties? Because it is named after the grape so, strictly speaking again, Pinot Noir is not a wine - it is a grape! The most famous example of wines made from that being Burgundy.

Cheers (hic)

Dave in pedantic mode:-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: vectis
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

I have drunk some excellent lagers in Europe but none in the UK and reports of American and Australian lagers are that they are a totally tastless fizzy drink served so cold that they shrivel your fillings.
I just prefer a decent pint (or several) of warm ale when I can get it/them.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

Yes, because even the worst-stocked pubs would have at least a bitter and a lager. Then they could have cider or Guinness on tap (cider is also drunk by the pint here).

So just asking for a pint would be no good.

The exception would be if you are a regular in the pub and you always drink the same thing. Then the barman would probably know what you drank and sometimes you wouldn't even need to order - he would start pouring out your beer as soon as you walk in.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:36 AM


You'd have to be more specific in any pub, even a tied house. You'd always be asked, "A pint of what?" as they pointed to the taps.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

Talking of free houses: The UK pub sector has, since the 1980s, been complicated by the arrival of the pub chain or 'pubco'.

The UK government introduced new laws (known as the "Beer Orders") in the late 1980s to try to counteract the then oligopoly of the handful of large brewers that controlled the vast majority of UK pubs. The laws included limits on how many pubs a brewer could own. The idea was to try to free up the market, especially in areas of the country where a large brewer had a virtual monopoly, because they had gradually bought out all the competitors in the area.

Some of the large brewers did the decent thing and sold off pubs above the limit to smaller companies, while others cynically swapped pubs for breweries, so that Company A took over Company B's breweries, in exchange for Co. A's pubs - so we had a huge brewery with no pubs, and a huge pub company with no breweries of its own. Neither co. was breaking the new law. Of course, they had also agreed as part of the deal that "Brewco" would exclusively supply "Pubco's" pubs with beer. This was something the govt hadn't anticipated (perhaps short-sightedly, with the benefit of hindsight).

Then during the 1990s, some of the old breweries sold off their pubs to third parties (including Japanese banks and the like) to form new 'pubcos' - pub owning companies.

These pubs in theory were 'free houses' in that they weren't tied to any brewery. But being so large, they are able to exert strong pressure on breweries to supply them with beer at low prices. They then supply their supposedly 'free' pubs with these ales. Any brewery not on the approved list can't sell their beers in the chain's pubs. Smaller breweries in particular can't afford to supply the beers to the chains at the low prices they demand. At least one brewery (Brakspear) went bust by trying to undercut their competitors in this way (the company was later taken over and saved, after a fashion).

These pubco companies have been gradually acquiring more pubs, or taking over smaller chains, with the result that the genuine free houses (those without any tie to any other company) have almost disappeared. There are a small number of large chains that now own most of the country's pubs - not a lot different from the bad old days in many ways.

So, there are two types of free house: the genuinely free house, perhaps owned by the landlord, who is free to choose what beer he sells; and the 'pubco' free house, that can't.

Whenever I can, I try to support the 'real' free houses - I'd liek to see the law changed to prevent chains from calling their pubs free houses, but I haven't seen much interest from CAMRA in doing this.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: MaineDog
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM

Harpoon IPA for me!
MD

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:12 AM

Far and away the best Free House is The Mudcat Tavern.
Licensee LTS.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:09 AM

Yup.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:07 AM

So I assume that if you walked into a "free house" you would have to be a bit more specific than "give me a pint"?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Alec
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 10:03 AM

Free Houses,that is to say Pubs not owned by a brewery, almost invariably have a much wider selection of beers than tied houses (Pubs which are owned by a brewery)
Free houses are usually better Pubs all round.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

Most pubs have several brands. Clubs often have a narrower selection - one keg beer and one lager - but pubs generally have at least three lagers and two bitters.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

"But the stuff sold here in the UK as 'lager' is just cheap keg beer, artificially carbonated and made quickly from cheap ingredients and sold at premium prices."

Then the U.K. is getting screwed.   

That would be like serving Velvetta and saying that is what cheese is supposed to taste like.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:54 AM

We MIGHT be saying the same think.   

Am I correct to assume that your pubs bascially have one "brand" of beer available? If I walk into a pub and ask for a pint I would be given whatever ale is available? In that case, the type of ale would be dependent on the brewer.

Bars in the U.S. usually have multiple taps, as well as bottles, available. If you walk into a U.S. bar and ask for a beer the bartender will ask "what kind?" Check out this website - andy's corner bar

This place is a local treasure.   It started out decades ago as a corner bar - formica tops, locals, standard commerical beers.   A number of years ago the owner decided to try a few "different" brands. The idea took off and now the bar is a mecca for good beer sampling. Tiny place, but great beer with knowledgeable personnel that knows how to serve.

While Andy's has more than the normal amount of beers available, most U.S. bars will have several choices available.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:52 AM

You COULD call any ale OR lager a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale or a lager.

Beer, ale and lager are all generic terms - ale and lager are types of beer and there are many types of ales and lagers.

Agreed, Ron - we are saying the same thing :-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:50 AM

Lagers actually require more care and time to produce, which may be a reason why ale became so popular. Lagers are also less forgiving of mistakes in the brewing process and do not mask the problems as many ales do.

True lager requires more time, yes. I understand the term 'lager' comes from the German word for 'to store', implying it's beer that's been stored for longer before being served.

But the stuff sold here in the UK as 'lager' is just cheap keg beer, artificially carbonated and made quickly from cheap ingredients and sold at premium prices. Many of the so-called 'lagers' here are inferior in quality to the equivalent strength bitters, but cost more, because they tend to be more heavily advertised.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

Saying "I'll have an ale" would be like walking into a restaurant I'll have chicken. How would you like it cooked? From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands, so you might not have much choice.   Here in the U.S. if you ask for an "ale", you would need to qualify it - do you want a bitter, a pale ale, a mild ale, an IPA, a stout, a porter, barley wine, etc.

I've never known anyone here in the UK walk into a pub and order "an ale" - as you say, that would be pretty pointless.

It would be the same as you describe for the US - you would have to be more specific and say "a pint of bitter" or whatever. Some pubs may only stock one type of bitter so that would work. But if the pub stocks more than one bitter, you'd have to be more specific and say for example "a pint of Adnams bitter" or "a pint of Wherry" or whatever.

I think we're saying the same thing here?

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:43 AM

"So, on the basis of what I said above, you could call an ale a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale. The term 'beer' is generic, as I said, and could conceiveably be used for any type of beer including lager, stout, porter, mild, bitter, or any other kind of ale."

You COULD call any ale OR lager a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale or a lager.

Beer, ale and lager are all generic terms - ale and lager are types of beer and there are many types of ales and lagers.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM

I find it very interesting that you would not call an ale a beer!   To me that is like someone saying that Pinot Noir is not a wine!

Er... sorry, but I didn't say that at all. I said:

Hmmm, interesting that you should think that. I agree that "ale" and "beer" mean the same thing, basically. "Beer" is probably used here in a more generic way than "ale" though - people might call a lager a beer but I don't think they would usually call it an ale

Most people over here think "lager" is a particular type of beer, a pale ("blonde") coloured beer, usually served chilled, and refreshing in hot weather.

People tend to use the term "ale" for bitters, winter beers, stouts, milds, porters, etc.

These terms are not strictly definitions, but I was just trying to explain how they are generally used here.

So, on the basis of what I said above, you could call an ale a beer, but you might not call any beer an ale. The term 'beer' is generic, as I said, and could conceiveably be used for any type of beer including lager, stout, porter, mild, bitter, or any other kind of ale.

Over here in the UK, I've never heard people use the term 'ale' when referring to lager, for example, so 'ale' is slightly less generic a term than 'beer', as far as modern day usage is concerned in the UK.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM

Well put Kendall! It is all about taste. Too many people respond to what they are told is good and cannot tell the difference.

Many people do feel that they are experts but it seems that they only react to ads. The Wychwood Brewery advert that Purple Sandpiper put up is a good example. I am sure the brewers at Wychwood realize that lager is complex and is not a tasteless brew, but they are serving a market that has been trained to believe that "ale" is superior. So, they come up with a clever campaign that works. The trained seals that are their consumers jump on it. Well done!

In actuality, many ales have less alchol content than lager and the flavors are not as complex as those in a well crafted lager. Many brewers cannot replicate lagers with any consistency so they stick to the easier brewed ales. As a homebrewer, I know that I cannot make a decent lager due to the lack of space for proper lagering. Ales can be easily made and it is why most home brewers stick to that style. You can make some very good beers by sticking to the ale family.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:59 AM

Last summer I had a discussion with a guy at a festival about Scotch. Somehow, I managed to piss him off, and he exclaimed "I'm an expert on Scotch." However, when I told him that I preferred Speyside to Islay he didn't know the difference, so he got shitty and said "So, you're the expert just because you've been there"!
When someone sticks his neck out it's hard to not step on it.

Now, I'm not saying I know a hell of a lot about whiskey;anymore than I know about beer. I know what I like and it's nothing more than my own opinion.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Purple Sandpiper
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:56 AM

"Why do people who drink real ale walk (or stagger) around thinking they are superior to people who drink lager?

I'm posting this on a folk forum because there seems to be a huge % of real alers in that community."

Maybe Jeff Beck had the idea of starting this thread having seen the Wychwood Brewery 'Lager Boy' advert (bottom right hand side of webpage)???

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:20 PM

Sorry Bill, maybe I did miss your point. You confused me when you said "it is fine to call Porter or Stout beer, as, like Ale, they are subdivisions". You then made a statment about CAMRA which seemed to suggest the same.   Ale is not exactly a subdivision - porter and stout would be a subdivision of Ale.   I guess an another analogy would be cheese. Cheddar and Swiss are types of cheese, but there are different varieties of cheddar and Swiss as well.

It does get complicated and confusing!

Bill, if you are ever in the NJ area I will take you to Andy's Corner Bar in Leonia, a world famous beer bar that knows how to serve a good pint! First five rounds are on me!!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:43 PM

uhh..Who are you replying to, Ron? All *I* was saying...trying to agree with you and explicate even more... was that it is good to be accurate in what one calls stuff. I am in the US. Are we missing each other's point?

Anyway, I know about Maytag and Anchor Steam...etc...I even had a bottle of beer (Porter) from the New Albion brewery, usually considered to be the first real micro-brewery to start up after WWII.
When I lived in Kansas, prior to 1977, good beer was 'mostly' imported, and almost NEVER got to Kansas. In the mid-70s though, it began to change, and now, as you say Ron, we have amazing choices!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM

I don't think you are understanding what I am trying to explain. It is not ambiguous local usage, unless your pubs only serve one type of beer.

Saying "I'll have an ale" would be like walking into a restaurant I'll have chicken. How would you like it cooked? From what I've heard, your pubs seem to only serve one or two brands, so you might not have much choice.   Here in the U.S. if you ask for an "ale", you would need to qualify it - do you want a bitter, a pale ale, a mild ale, an IPA, a stout, a porter, barley wine, etc.

Your CAMRA actually does promote ALL traditional styles of ale. CAMRA promoted traditional styles of beer and serving. Here in the U.S. we did not have such an organized campaign, but businessmen like Fritz Maytag kept alive such brews as Anchor Steam and help start a "microbrew" revolution.

You actually have more choices available to you in the United States than in any other country in the world. It is not just Bud and Coors. There are more diverse styles being brewed here than you could possibly imagine.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 04:11 PM

Nomenclature needs to reflect more than ambiguous local usage. Ale IS beer...a particular type of beer. It is fine to call Porter or Stout beer, as, like Ale, they are subdivisions....but to call one subdivision by the name of another just invites confusion.

I have no doubt that those who organized CAMRA fully intended to promote 'traditional' Porter & Stout also, but the acronym would not have been so tidy. CAMRABP?CAMPRAB?

Speaking of ales, I have a STRONG Winter ale I have been saving for a day like this...snowed in!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:23 PM

I find it very interesting that you would not call an ale a beer!   To me that is like someone saying that Pinot Noir is not a wine!

For beer, the basic difference is the type of yeast that is used and the temperature it is brewed. Of course the taste will be different, but there is no other difference in the product. Except for varieties, you are not adding anything different to a lager or an ale. (Yes, you can add things to either.)

Lagers actually require more care and time to produce, which may be a reason why ale became so popular. Lagers are also less forgiving of mistakes in the brewing process and do not mask the problems as many ales do.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

The one problem I have is that people on your side of the pond seem to equate beer with lager and not realize that ale is also beer.

Hmmm, interesting that you should think that. I agree that "ale" and "beer" mean the same thing, basically. "Beer" is probably used here in a more generic way than "ale" though - people might call a lager a beer but I don't think they would usually call it an ale

Most people over here think "lager" is a particular type of beer, a pale ("blonde") coloured beer, usually served chilled, and refreshing in hot weather.

People tend to use the term "ale" for bitters, winter beers, stouts, milds, porters, etc.

These terms are not strictly definitions, but I was just trying to explain how they are generally used here.

Hey, I'm thirsty too, now - must be catching! :-)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:57 AM

The one problem I have is that people on your side of the pond seem to equate beer with lager and not realize that ale is also beer.

To give it a food analogy, it is like saying "chicken". You can serve it broiled or fried, but it is still chicken. You may enjoy it prepared one way or the other and that is perfectly reasonable - but they are both methods of preparing the same bird. Beer is both ale and lager.

"Real" is also a misnomer. It is a style and a method of serving. The "ale" family has stouts, Imperial stouts, pale ale, India pale ale, cream ale, and many other varieties.

Everyone has a favorite. Depending on the time of day and what I might be having with my meal, I may have a different favorite. After mowing the lawn, I love a good lightly-hopped lager. On a cool spring night give me a nice hoppy bock. When the snow if falling, I'm partial to a good stout.

Now I am thirsty again.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:45 AM

Well, I agree with what you sat Ron, but the title of the thread is a little misleading, because lager can be 'real ale' too. Most of the beer sold as lager in the UK is not 'real' (in the 'real ale' sense), but some is. And of course there are many examples of what could be called 'real' lager in Germany, Belgium, etc., and in the US.

Real ale drinkers are not (IME) usually motivated by any kind of snobbery, but by the fact that they regard real ale as better quality than the fizzy keg stuff.

That's not to say there aren't some snobs around though, as there is with almost anything else (wine, certain types of food, music, etc., etc....)

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 11:08 AM

I agree with Kendall that often there is a snobbery. It is one thing to talk about the style among afficionados, but you can often find an inbred snobbery there. The whole idea of "ale" versus "lager" is an example of that.   Those who denigrate "lager" have a limited education and exposure to the style. They were indoctrinated to believe that "real ale" is the only way to go. in reality, they fall victim to the same sort of media campaign that makes Bud the #1 selling beer across the planet.

You like what you like.   If you are a home brewer you might have interest in the ingredients and the preparation, but if you are simply a consumer it doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:35 AM

Well, some people don't care what goes into their beer and that's fair enough. But that's no reason to criticise others who do take an interest in it, IMO. I'm biased though, because I happen to find ale an interesting subject - although I'd still rather drink it than talk about it... cheers!

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 09:01 AM

Well, I guess I don't have to bother saying that I don't have any taste when it comes to beer.

Now, when it comes to Whiskey, that's another story.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:36 AM

Ah, Kendall, the 'fuss' is that advertising and commercial profiteering have foisted some abominable stuff off as beer & ale. It is often the case that folks will get 'used' to the mass-market stuff without realizing what it SHOULD be. Sometimes it is hard (in certain areas) to even find a decent selection to make comparisons.

It is a bit like eating plain white bread (Wonder bread is classic example in USA) and then discovering all the myriad types of preservative free whole-grain treats that can be found with a bit of trouble. Naturally, if price is important and the selection is limited, compromises must be made, but first, you have to KNOW what is available, and these discussions spread the word.

    For those who do care and enjoy the search for 'better', these discussions can help....

If you are happy with Heineken's and Fosters...fine....but you probably prefer them to Budweiser or Iron City- and for good reason. There are similar reasons to look even beyond Heineken..etc....but as you say, it IS a matter of taste...if you don't HAVE any taste, it doesn't matter....*big grin as I dodge behind the door*

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 08:04 AM

Of course not. Apparently I wasn't clear. I don't care if they use two pounds of hops or two and 7/8. Assuming it is fit for humans to begin with, I just don't see what the fuss is. You either like it or you don't, and one opinion is as good as another's.We are not dealing with facts here.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: Scrump
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 06:17 AM

Personally, I couldn't care less how it is brewed,what they put in it or how it gets from the cellar to the bar!

Maybe you have the same attitude to what you eat. I like to know what I'm eating or drinking, so I prefer to find out as much as I can about 'what they put in it'.

Subject: RE: Real Ale v Lager
From: GUEST,Hearsay
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 09:16 PM

Well sed Felicity!!!
The only intelligent comment on dis tread!