BS: Voluntary Simplicity

Subject: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:07 AM

What Is Voluntary Simplicity?

It is keeping your life simple and uncomplicated so you can enjoy it more. Simple Living leads to a happier life.

Henry David Thoreau said "Simplify, Simplify"

I think I lead a life of voluntary simplicity. I feel like I have everything I need and I am satisfied. I never feel like I am tied up or forced to do things I don't want to do. Having a great wife helps too.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:09 AM

Yeah, I do. How about that! We agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:19 AM

We generally refer to our state as "broke as hell" and it seems to be quite similar to voluntary simplicity but with a good deal more worry attached over buying food, gassing the cars, paying bills, making the mortgage payment, and the like.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:23 AM

I think "involuntary simplicity" would be a better description of your situation, Pat. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Elmer Fudd
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:33 AM

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler.
                                                             —Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 02:56 AM

Yeah Hawk, you may be right, but then again Karen and I made the decision to go with this family situation/style and for the most part we love it. I wish we had more bucks though. It just makes things so much easier.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:00 AM

" Any damn fool can get complicated, it takes a genius to achieve simplicity, by Pete Seeger about Woody Guthrie.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM

Spaw:

You should take stock of what you have and what you need. A lot of people thaty think they don't have enough money actually do. They just don't realize it.

Somebody came to me recently wanting help with a scheme that he was certain would make him rich. It was a dubious and difficult plan and I did not participate. I didn't need tha money enough to violate my ethics. I found out this guy owned five houses. I told him that he was already rich and didn't know it.

This is true of other people that own a lot less. Which brings me to another question that I constantly ask myself and others:

How much is "Enough"? It seems that we all are working toward the time that we will have "Enough" and we won't have to worry anumore.

So how do you determine how much is "Enough"? It seems to me that the lower you set that goal, the happier you will be instead of the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:31 AM

True simplicty is not really possible in any "advanced" country.

Living in a house.. taxes.. utilities... health care... Having to drive to get your food.. auto ... insurance....maintenance..

Simplicity is a hut or a cave, a little garden and living until you die.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:01 AM

I must say that I am with Jack on this one but I am fascinated by the idea. Is there a way of simplifying life if you live in a modern urban society? If there is I would love to give it a try.

Any ideas gratefuly accepted and plagerised as my own...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:10 AM

DtG

The first step would be to leave the modern urban society for a rural location, not only is it generally less expensive to live there but healthier, both physically and mentally.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:17 AM

I suspect that the true simple life begins and ends with hunter gatherers. The minute one spawns an agricultural life, so to speak, the accumulation of wealth begins, and with that you rapidly develop population density, organization, governments, specialization, taxes, standing armies, insurance, and trading stamps.
The simple life we are talking about 'here' is fine, but is dependent on a larger complicated society maintaining the roads, the borders, the value of our currency, and the cleanliness of air and water.

Not that simplification ain't a good idea. I am a huge failure at it, however, and am looking for a good woman to make me throw my life away.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:22 AM

Easier said than done, bobad. House in the suberbs that I have now - Value £200k. Mortgage £130k. Income working in town - Enough to pay the mortgage. House in the country. £250K. Mortgage required £180K. Income not working in town. Somewhere between none and unknown:-(

How do I do it?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:25 AM

...here's an idea...

                                                       Blow up your TV,
                                                       Throw away your paper,
                                                       Move to the country,
                                                       Build you a home.
                                                       Plant a little garden,
                                                       Eat a lot of peaches,
                                                       Try to find Jesus,
                                                       On your own.

                                                       ----John Prine

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:32 AM

Simple living is a lifestyle, a mindset or a different set of values. A different view of what things are worth in terms of effort VS reward. Also the utility of objects once you have them.

Is a cup of Starbucks worth $3? Do you really need a CD player in that 4WD suv with all the "conveniences"? I don't even have power windows in my 2WD pickup.

Do you need an RV sitting in your driveway and depreciating to be used once or twice a year? I did but I got rid of it for simplicity.

What kind of clothes do you need? All I own are T shirts, shorts, a few jeans, a few button up shirts, 1 jacket, 1 winter coat and 1 suit.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:41 AM

Voluntary Simplicity is out of the question for the rest of this year. We're building a new house and selling the old one. Simplicity - no way.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:59 AM

Here's how we did it DtG.

Owned a home in the suburbs which was paid off, by having luck in buying and reselling a previous home in propitious economic times. Sold that home and used the equity to purchase a 75 acre farm with an old farmhouse and some outbuildings on it. Both my wife and I (no kids) managed to find local part time jobs that provide us with adequate, though greatly reduced incomes. I have since retired (at age 56) but my wife continues to work 21/2 days a week. We manage to provide ourselves with the basic necessities by growing a large amount of the food we consume and living unextravagantly, but wanting for very little.

The rural land values you quote reflect, I presume, the ratio of land to population in the UK. One thing that we have here in Canada is the opposite ratio which makes rural land more affordable and accounts for the large number of European immigrants who are purchasing local farms.

Good luck to you - where there's a will there's a way.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

"Strive for simplicity, but learn to mistrust it."

                Alfred North Whitehead

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Amos
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

OG:

I think you are showing some real wisdom in this thread, pal.

We try hard to steer clear of undue complexities even though living in a city. We have ten-year old cars that get good mileage, and a good circle of close friends. We have little desire to impress anyone, aside from doing our jobs well. Our lives are still more complex than they might be, by we try for a balance. We steer clear of TV, which I think can complicate things enormously.

Simplcity is not measured only by monetary values, but more by the state of mind you bring to bear in your dealings with people.
AT least that's my humble opinion.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 12:33 PM

In my experience where there is a will there is a lot of relations:-)

Sound brilliant, bobad. Slightly different circumstances here. Most of the countryside hereabouts is either National Park, National Trust or farmed. No chance of building on it. House and land prices in all rural areas I know of are higher than suburban Salford where I live now. Only place cheaper as far as I know is Hull and that is as built up as here. I also have kids. I have put 3 through university and am funding another one at present. Our choice - but does rather tie us down.

The more ideas the better though - I am more than happy to listen and take on all advice so keep 'em coming and hopefuly I can report back in a year to say we are keeping chickens and growing our own veg in the Yorkshire dales:-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM

Old Guy.....I appreciate the idea here and all and at 57 I am well aware of needs etc. But frankly you don't know me or my situation as you haven't been around here all that long and I ain't explaining the past 10 years for you. It wwould take a lot more typing than I'm interested in doing. We keep it simple and cheap believe me........We have no choice!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:17 PM

Im am too lazy to grow my own food. I used to have 7+ acres and a tractor but I got tired of all the chickens, goats and ponies. What a nuisance. It was a simplification to get rid of that property and get into a suburban house with city water, sewage and natural gas. Now I don't have to worry about a well, pump, oil deliveries and a septic system.

Living in a city can be simple too. Do you really need a yard to tend to? Can you walk to work or take public transportation? Is shopping closer?

Voluntary simplicity is not necessarily about living in the boonies or being a tightwad, growing and making everything yourself. It can mean making choices of simpler clothes, food, furniture, houses cars etc. Keeping things longer, buying used things. Deciding what things are really necessary and useful.

It also involves saving for the future instead of pissing all of your money away on DooDads. What do I need a boat for? All I need is my canoe. If you can afford a boat, put the money into an IRA instead and let it grow.

My wife and I use credit cards and we pay them off every month. Credit card companies call people like us Deadbeats. If we can pay them off, why do we use them?
#1 It is simpler to pay with a card and pay one bill every month rather than writing a bunch of checks or fooling with cash and change.
#2 We get a record of what we spent and where.
#3 We can return things we don't like easier.
#4 We get rebates. I got $2000 off of my pickup using my 5% rebate GM card to buy things I was going to buy anyway. My wife got $3000 off of her minivan. We both get 3% rebate on gas. We both get 1% rebate on everything else in the form of vouchers that can be used for travel.

Using certain credit cards can make your life simpler and more rewarding if you have the discipline to pay it off every month and not overspend.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 06:07 PM

I met a lot of Yankees who lived by Ye Old New England Credo: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." I can assure you,OG, Spaw and Karenspaw do that, just as much as I'd guess a lot of us folkies do.

pdq, I have a friend who married a guy who used that John Prine song to woo her. The place in the country just went up in flames in a forest fire, the husband turned out to be a control freak arsehole, and they never grew any peaches. Thankfully she did have two wonderful children with him AND divorced him many years ago!:-)

Country acreage here in Colorado is nearly untouchable unless one is at least a millionaire. Also, anyone who thinks growing and raising their own food is a SIMPLE life ought to talk to people in the bush in Alaska or, read my grandmother's memoirs of homesteading. Just becuase one doesn't spend money and try to keep up with Joneses doesn't mean they lead a simple life. It can be tough, hard, frustrating work. I would guess it had a lot to do with the invention of "modern convenieces." :-)

kat.."live simply that others may simply live"

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:11 PM

Are you enjoying life Spaw?

I realize that some folks have hard time getting by regardless of how much scrimping and saving they do. I am also of the belief that their kids grow up better adjusted.

I tried not to spoil mine but the grandkids... that's a whole different story. Even then we spoil them by taking them places and giving them a lot of attention, something their working parents cannot provide a lot of.

Another thing that just crossed my mind is that my wife does the food shopping and she clips every coupon, food and otherwise, that she can. She even goes to stores where they double coupons. She keeps a record and she saves between $1000 and $2000 per year.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

Old Guy... I'd be really happy right now if I didn't want to eat food. It'd be really simple for two people to live on $100 a week if we didn't have to eat or go out for any reason, or do laundry!

The "voluntary simplicity movement" when applied as a cure-all is just kinda silly - as it works best for people who already HAVE a lot to re-evaluate. For those who haven't had "enough" to start with BY THEIR OWN DEFINITION OF "ENOUGH", it's rather difficult to get rid of anything in order to "simplify" things according to someone else's ideal.

True simplicity is about evaluation of YOUR OWN needs and getting to the magic "enough" for YOU, not preaching to others about what THEY need and what should be "enough" for THEM.

(From a long-time involuntary simplicity practitioner currently acting on a plan to get to "enough" for the first time ever.)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 09:49 PM

I am not saying everybody here has enough. What I am saying is that some people are always wanting more no matter how much they have. The more they get, the more they want.

It is not a cure all but just a cure for some like the guy that owned 5 houses and wanted to get rich.

Maybe I am lucky but I feel I have enough and I am content with what I have. I even find that the more I simplify the happier I am. I am not preaching. People need to define enough for themselves. The trouble is that for some people, the more thay have the more unhappy they are.

How in hell does anybody end up with $100 a week for two to live on anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:01 PM

LMAO......Yeah Old Guy.....I am enjoying my life and I think I'm currently on number seven.

Unlike you OG, I have no grandkids to spoil and at my age (57) I still have 2 kids in school so I guess I fit the wrong mold. No, not college...not even high school. Tris is autistic in Special Ed. and Michael is in the 7th grade. So I'm one of those parents looking for a grandparent to help our asses out!!!!

I'd like to apologize for owning a van but we still have one because it was the last one we bought when we were still fostering (35 kids over ten years) and that was back in '94 so the old girl has a few miles on her but we can't afford to replace her just yet. See we just had to replace that ego symbol BMW of ours. Of course it was even older and had a bit over 300,000 miles on it but I apologize for owning such a yuppie symbol.

I would have rebuilt the Bimmer as that was my occupation but I can't do as much as I used to, actually, I'm not allowed. I never thought I'd live this long so I didn't bother taking care of myself and now I'm paying the price! But let me keep it simple for you......just shy of a million bucks in medical bills over the past 10 years. Is that simple enough? Luckily we have great insurance but there is still a lot of "deductibles" and co-pays on that amount. I'm doing great now but I take a few meds. Again we have great insurance though as the meds only cost about a thousand last year, but the insurance paid an additional SEVEN thousand. We couldn't afford that insurance without Karen's job.

Ya' see we had already moved out to "God's Country" when all this went down and now Karen has to drive 100 miles a day to get to and from that good job......at 3 bucks a gallon. But frankly we can't afford to move BACK to the city either. We're just screwed and I want to send The Shrub a great big kiss for all he's done for our country.

But ya' know I AM happy and I AM enjoying life. I know you don't believe that but it is true....ask anyone here who knows me. Karen is the greatest thing that ever happened to me followed by my kids and then my friends, many of whom are right here on the 'Cat and have seen us through much of the above. About the only time I get even slightly upset is when some clueless broke-dick mamalucca tries to tell me how to live with some lame-ass, stupid fuckin' bullshit that doesn't work for us struggling pissants down here in the everyday world.

Keep it simple and have a nice day..............oy..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

You have my condolences on your situation. Think of how it would be without insurance.

I could ask why you blame $3 gas on Bush but I am afraid I would be called stupid or something. It seems to me that gas started climbing back during the Clinton administration and has been ratcheting up ever since mostly due to world demand to a lesser degree by "intelligent" people blocking drilling here in the US. Do you think Shrub Boy has a big gas price knob on his desk that he turns a little higher every day?

If she is driving a big old van 100 miles per day, that is madness. You need to drive something that runs on fumes.

Has your property appreciated in step with the city?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: GUEST,Jane
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 10:38 PM

The term Voluntary Simplicity can sound a bit patronising and probably pisses off those who are involuntarily poor! I've always been skint so don't know any different.

I read an interesting book about VS, and other things, called 'Living Lightly' by Walter and Dorothy Schwartz. Lots of case studies and pics of folks who are looking for alternative happier ways of living, and not the slightest bit preachy or patronising.

A recent study has shown that a person's perception of happiness starts to level off after their salary reaches approx £15,000k. After this amount, there is not much difference in happiness levels. So it seems money really can't buy happiness?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:25 PM

OG, you haven't been here long enough to ask Spaw such stupid questions; are you that self-righteous in the 3D world?

katfriendofSpaw - in case ya didn't notice

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:51 PM

"... why you blame $3 gas on Bush but I am afraid I would be called stupid or something."

Stupid? No, just gullible. Yes, gas has been "higher" for years now as demand increases and supplies are limited....but the difference between $2 gas and $3+ gas is FEAR brought about by speculators nervous about the instability of the Middle-East since GW decided Iraq would be a push-over! (Don't throw picky details at me, the FACT is that prices went up after we invaded Iraq, made a jump after Katrina, then LEAPED as the war situation got worse & worse. Production didn't change that much......you READ how much profits the oil companies made the last year.

Blame Bush? Sure...he created the situation that made bad go to worse, then to miserable!

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Scoville
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:17 AM

Dude, get a Toyota. I refuse to bitch about gas prices. Gas was $5 a gallon in Norway when we were there thirteen years ago.

I don't think there is a single definition of "simplicity", and I don't think "simplicity" and wanting to make a smaller impact on the environment are interchangeable terms. A friend of ours decided to "simplify" so he gave away a bunch of stuff, sold his car, and moved to a smaller place. However, since most large towns/cities are not set up for people sans personal transportation, he then either had to spend hours a day on the bus or bum rides all the time. Just getting to work and doing basic errands became a half-time job; it didn't simplify anything.

Likewise, we could move closer into town but it wouldn't necessarily simplify our lives to have to deal with city traffic every time we had to go to the grocery store, or scramble for parking (which is all but nonexistant here), and it would be vastly more expensive than suburbia. Much as I dislike suburbia, even. Is there a happy medium between God's country and the city--approaching affordable but without the commute from Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:29 AM

Luvyakatmyluv!

Actually OG your stuff is getting more and more humorous by the post! I can't tell you how much I appreciate your financial advice and suggestions for lifestyle improvement. I can always use the laughs.

Thanks Bill.....I do believe you have it. Remember the great gas war days? Gas for 9 cents a gallon and we even gave it away one afternoon. We all wore black armbands that day and had a plywood coffin draped in black to symbolize the death of the independent gas station owner. You remember those days? Gas was normally 37 cents for regular. We'd wash all the windows, check the oil, brake fluid, washer fluid, belts, PS fluid, fill the battery....even empty your ashtray if you wanted. And you got 13.2 gallons of gas for five bucks!

For five bucks now I can barely fill the mower can!!! LMAO....Ain't life grand?   When I was 21 I could spend a night cruising and street racin' on non-race weekends for 5 or 6 bucks. Sunoco 260 cost 41 cents. Now I can barely mow the grass for that! But OG, you'll be glad to know we have planted more perennial beds and ground covers.

Spaw (and Scoville....we have pristine Mitsubishi Diamante...nice Aussie car...gets about 27 average)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:33 AM

Ommmmmmm

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Bert
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:45 AM

Spaw ol' buddy, I think that your situation (What with Karen and the kids) has less to do with simplicity and a lot more to do with love.

Most simplicity, though, is due to the person involved and is not necessarily voluntary. If it is in your nature then that is the way that you are.

Trouble is, as I've found out as a designer, that simplicity is not a valued asset. The more complicated a design is then, the easier it is to sell. If it is simple then nobody appreciates it.

That's why most prorgrammers use C instead of Forth.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:51 AM

"What I am saying is that some people are always wanting more no matter how much they have. The more they get, the more they want." Heh, I've seen that. It usually happens to people who've experienced famine and then get rich... nothing is ever enough to fill the inner void.

I'll have to be careful later on in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:03 AM

"Henry David Thoreau said "Simplify, Simplify""

Easy for him. He was a solitary bachelor with almost a whole, unspoiled continent to exist in.

------------------
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler. -                                                          —Albert Einstein "

Einstein relied on the women of his family to make his survival possible. Left to himself, he couldn't even find his socks.
---------------------

As for myself, I agree that many people let their lives get much too complicated. Like a co-worker of my husband. They had three kids, two jobs, four cars, ten acres, dogs, cats - and when the six-year old whined and whined for an iguana, they bought it!

On the other hand, it is not possible to live like Thoreau any more. If you want clean water, healthy food, security from criminals, and your own teeth, then you need a home and certain basic equipment.

Not to mention musical instruments...

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Scoville
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:21 AM

I've got a Toyota-in-disguise (this is a newer version--mine's four years old) that's rated for 36 highway but will do 39 if I'm careful. I could have done better but I refuse to buy a sedan. Almost as well as a hybrid and I'll never have to spend thousands on batteries.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:27 AM

"I've been rich and I've been poor, and believe me, rich is better." -- Fanny Brice

That does not mean that you have to spend, spend, spend and load yourself down with things. My neighbors have SUVs, we have a Civic and and Element. My neighbors have ATVs, fast boats, and HUGE RVs; we just bought a new tent and sleeping bags and cookset.

My neighbors are wildly in debt. We pay off all of our bills (except for the house and the Element) every month. I will have to replace my 1999 Civic one of these days, but I hope I can wait until the Element is paid off.

We have money in the bank sufficient to live on for six months. My wife can go to quilt conferences and shows and I can do whatever it is I do. We long ago, back in the "don't have quite enough money" days, discovered the difference between "want" and "need."

I've also been incredibly lucky in the getting the job I currently have.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 11:45 AM

The difference between "want" and "need" is the key IMO.

We know many couples where both work full time and they are always broke but they have the latest and greatest of every consumer item available - giant TVs, laptops, cell phones etc. and these are continually being upraded because there always something newer and better on the market.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:03 PM

Well Spaw and others, maybe picking a fight makes you laugh more and makes your life better.

Maybe this chart will help explain why it is cheaper now than it was in 1981.

Why is gas is $7 in Europe?

Why was it $5 a gallon in Norway thirteen years ago?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:12 PM

Buddhism 101

Simplicity is always relative.

Simplicity is not about things.

Simplicity is about the mind.

You don't simplify in any significant way by getting rid of things.

You simplify by getting rid of the attachment/clinging to things.

Russ (GUEST who occasionally pontificates and is usually ignored)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:32 PM

I guess you could say that VS is the opposite of Consumerism.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 02:37 PM

I hear what you're saying Russ but it's easier to be unattached to what's not there.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:17 PM

We also dumped (i.e., gave to Goodwill, SVdP, Salvation Army, etc.) those things that were still usable but which we no longer need(ed). We especially did this when we moved from Indiana to Kentucky and again from Kentucky to Idaho. Sure, it was a tax deduction, but it helped others and CERTAINLY helped us. Now we feel far less atttached to things than before, and the paradox is that we could now afford them!

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: LilyFestre
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:20 PM

Russ,

   Pontificate some more!!!!

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:54 PM

bobad,

Maybe, maybe not.

If it is truly a case of out of sight out of mind, you're cool.

If you miss/long for/grieve about/scheme to recover/fondly remember/etc. what is not there, all you've done is change the nature of the clinging, but the clinging is still there.

You are now fettered by/attached to the absent thing.

Michelle,

Don't get me started. Ask my wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:32 PM

What about being attached to detachment?

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM

bobad,

Excellent (and traditional) point.

You don't get rid of your attachments all at once like emptying a wastebasket.

If you take the idea seriously it is supposed to require a multi-step, perhaps long, not necessarily easy, program of mental/meditative/spiritual discipline. I cannot speak from experience but the usual claim is that at some point one ceases to be attached to detachment.

There are lots of people and groups selling such programs. They come in all sizes and flavors. Inquire at your local zen monastery, ISCON center, ashram, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:50 PM

You're right, Russ. Simplicity is achieved in the mind.

Old Guy, I use credit cards exactly the way you do. You're saying they call us "deadbeats", because we always pay the whole balance off on time and never pay interest? LOL! Look, I figure they get their cut anyway on every single thing I buy (and they do, from the retailer), so why the hell should I be a fool and pay them interest charges when I don't need to?

I note that they keep raising my credit limits, hoping against hope that I will be tempted to spend my way into debt... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 05:15 PM

Russ, I knew there was a good reason why you're our favorite permanent Guest. Great posts old friend!!!

Rap, we do just about the same.....bought new tent this year too! I only use a debit credit card and have NO auto loans, just the mortgage. Course neither of my vehicles was made in this millenium(:<))

Old Guy, I think you need to get yourself a case or so of some simple enemas 'cause you are completely full of shit. Or maybe that cranial/rectal inversion is so deep it has you plugged up. Maybe if you took your hat off............LMAO...Christ what a tool...

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:30 PM

Hmmm....here's a little food for thought.

"variations in the prevalence of Toxoplasma gondii "may explain a substantial proportion of human population differences we see in cultural aspects that relate to ego, money, material possessions, work and rules."

From : http://time.blogs.com/eye_on_science/2006/08/now_for_somethi.html

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:32 PM

Well Mr Spaw I have been nice to you so thanks for the hospitality.

LH:

As per a show on PBS:

Deadbeat use to mean someone not taking responsible action. This is not true in the upside down credit industry. In credit card bill jargon, "Deadbeats" pay their balances off in full every month. They are deadbeats because the industry receives very little profit off of these responsible consumers.

Furthermore if you read what I wrote, I said we allways pay the credit cards off every month and you can get certain credit cards that give rebates. My wife and I got a total of $5000 off of new vehicles. The dealer does not have the chance to add it back in. You wait until after the dealing is done and you pull out your card. They call the 800 number and verify the amount built up on that account and they get paid that amount directly from them. There are limits on the amounts depending on the model.

Another card gives us 3% off on all gas we pump ourselves. On other things besides gas we get a 1% rebate in the form of travel vouchers.

We are getting back some of that money the credit card companies are charging the merchants. The only time I have seen a vendor charge extra because you use a credit card is at computer shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:36 PM

http://www.youngmoney.com/credit_debt/credit_basics/050205

Forty percent of credit card users in this country pay their balance off every month (referred to in the credit card industry as "deadbeats," which is the world upside down if you think about it for a moment), and the other 60% carry average balances estimated to be between $12,000 and $14,000. Be a "deadbeat" and be proud of it. You won't regret it in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 09:39 PM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/etc/script.html

SECRET HISTORY OF THE CREDIT CARD
PRODUCED BY David Rummel & Nelli Kheyfets
CORRESPONDENT Lowell Bergman
WRITTEN BY Lowell Bergman & David Rummel
DIRECTED BY David Rummel

NARRATOR: The credit card companies do make a percentage on each transaction, but Stein is not their ideal customer because, like 55 million Americans, he pays his bills off every month and doesn't pay any interest.

BEN STEIN: The credit card companies hate people like me, who pay off our bills every month. And I know that because I ran into a fellow I went to high school with on the street, and he told me he worked for a credit card company. And I told him about how much I use credit cards and how I pay them off every month, and he said, "Oh, we hate you. We hate you guys. We call you deadbeats."

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM

Little Hawk,

Thanks, but I deserve no credit. All I am doing is paraphrasing and simplifying wisdom/common sense found almost everywhere and everywhen under different names. My personal experience leads me to believe that there's something to it, but your mileage may vary.

Spaw,
Thank you. I love the handle.

Bobad,

Interesting but vague. Some proponents of the psychic discipline(s) I was referring to claim that it can overcome/remove/heal/cure/circumvent physical problems such as disease, some don't. From my own experience I can't say one way or the other.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:52 PM

Other ways I have simplified my life:

Once I was jumping out of a truck body onto the street. My hand was braced against the side of the door and my wedding ring got hooked over the head of a screw. I damned near lost a finger. It bent the ring so bad I never put it back on. My wife does not object and it is a great simplification not to have to wear it.

I found some shoes by LL Bean called comfort slides. The heel is about 3/4" high and you can slip them on and off without even bending over. They are the most comfortable shoes I have ever had and they not expensive.
It sure is nice not to have to fool with shoe laces.

When I wore a wrist watch, I noticed I had to look at it frequently to see what time it was. What for? It was uncomfortable made marks, need a new strap, batteries and replacement every few years.
So I chucked it. I can always find out what time it is when I need to know.

Why do people have to know what time it 1s all the time anyway? You know when you get hungry it is time to eat. When you get sleepy it is bed time. When you get through sleeping it is time to get up. I find myself sort of drifting through the days. Usually I loose track of what day it is as well. What a load off of my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:39 PM

That's nice if you're not working. Tomorrow, however, I have a meeting with the Mayor at 1:30 p.m. I have to give a staff meeting at 9 a.m. Besides, with my watch I have a stopwatch, alarm, date, second hand, and a second watch face. I can use it as a compass (it's analog, obviously) and there's a elapsed time bezel. The sole complaint I have is that it's battery powered and not self-winding.

My watch has become like my pocket knife -- it's there when I need it and otherwise I ignore it. It's lightweight and I can do a lot of different things with it.

But different strokes and all that....

(When I bought the watch the salesman told me that it was waterproof "down to 300 meters." I replied that if I was 300 meters underwater I had bigger problems than what time it was.)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:45 PM

When the world blows up you will know exactly when it happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

I don't think that when the world blows up I'll really give a shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Bert
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 01:50 AM

Yer right Old Guy, I've not worn a watch in years.

But don't forget folks, that simplicity is a result not a method. Sometimes it takes an awful lot of complex work to prduce a simple result.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:05 PM

Once I quit wearing the watch I didn't care what time it was. My load had been lightened.

When I have to be somewhere on time, I still manage.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:29 PM

I gave up wearing a watch decades ago for much the same reasons. No big deal. My mind is free without it and my arm is more comfortable without it. There are clocks in the house. There's a clock in the car. There are clocks in many public buildings, so who needs a watch???

I never wear rings and never have. They get in the way of my fingers.

I've never had a cell phone. Who needs it? Well, maybe somebody does, but I don't. I enjoy not having to answer the phone most of the time...(it's usually just a telemarketer or some other pest anyway).

Heh! I can't figure why you and I disagree so much about politics, Old Guy. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Wesley S
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 04:16 PM

I have a cell phone only because I have a child. I need to stay in touch because of him. But VERY few people have my cell phone number. And just because you have a phone doesn't mean you have to answer it.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 11:58 PM

I have a cell phone but I only turn it on when I want to call someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

Upgrade the downplayed with more withouts
Passions entwined with wants redefined
Leave us with pointless old clouts

Retell the groundswell grassroots grown deep
Techoinversions and acoustic emergences
Help us more calmly to sleep

The latest and greatest fashion the day
But cloud restoration's manifestations
And lead us well out of our way

Transcending the mending striving for more
Alongside the Jones's new cellular phones's
Who call us away from our core

Relative's gotta give find your own voice
The simpler harmonic resounds our true tonic
Love trumps chimerical choice

Voluntary is a query searching the soul
When economical knows anatomical
It takes no intelligible toll

Examine the stamina fight for the living
Spending assumptions for competitive gumptions
Are no subsitute for the giving
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 06:11 AM

Hindus call their version of voluntary simplicity "Aparigraha".
Aparigraha means non-possessiveness. It can be about living without surplus possessions, but also includes the dimension of having an experience but not holding onto it, and about not holding onto mental clutter.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Voluntary Simplicity
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM

I've been trying to simplify things, but it's just too complicated. *shrug*