BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK

Subject: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:08 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5387358.stm

As always, be worried about an "independent" report which proves what the people commissioning it want it to prove! :-/

I have to say that I agree with worries about gamekeepers poisoning birds of prey. Foxes I'm not too bothered about - there's plenty of them - but birds of prey are in serious decline and gamekeepers have brought several species to the verge of extinction (red kites for one).

But I'd also take issue with the line "This (wildlife) is a national asset - by what right do people start harvesting this for profit?" Actually this wildlife is as carefully a "farmed" set of animals as any free-range chickens or hill-farm sheep. Pheasants, grouse and deer may not be domesticated, but they're living in environmental conditions which are fully controlled and created by humans, which is something it's too easy to forget. The only important element is ensuring that the take is sustainable - commercial fishing is the prime example of what happens when it isn't. Also in many cases (especially deer), controlled culling is *essential* to keep the population from overfilling their environment.

I'm ambivalent about the "pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable", but when it comes to hunting game animals then I really hope this doesn't get closed down. Fortunately, whilst this is a minority sport, it's certainly not a small or an underfunded minority sport, and it's difficult to make the same charges of cruelty as for fox-hunting. It's worth remembering too that the results would be immediately evident to many people who don't hunt - if a ban happened, you would never again be able to eat pheasant, pigeon or venison in the UK.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:45 AM

I am all in favour of those who wish to shoot at and kill things for enjoyment - to be permitted to do so.

Open moorland can be set aside for this.

One group of hunters can venture out from one direction and other groups from another and they can all meet up and shoot the living daylights out of each other.

This should provide plenty of enjoyment and employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

I shoot.I also hunt with a lurcher. I love it. It contributes massively to the rural economy, not that most city dwellers give a f**k about the countryside, as long as it looks nice and pretty for them on a weekend. Try a weeks wild boar hunting in Poland, it's excellent sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:08 AM

Sure, and fishermen should all be held underwater with hooks in their mouths until they drown, and abattoir workers should have their throats cut...

If you're a vegetarian Roger, then that's fine. If you eat meat though (and the vast majority of the country does), things die in order that you can eat. And someone has to kill them.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:35 AM

You have to admire the league against cruel sports sometimes. Their logic is amazing...

"Hunting foxes with dogs is cruel. If we get hunting banned, the foxes will be shot. Much better."

and

"Shooting birds is cruel. "

What a consistient position!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:12 PM

From a moral perspective we may say that killing is undesirable, yet may be necessary, and if necessary should be done as humanely as possible. Seems quite consistent to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

No Richard: Bunnahabhain compared their positions towards foxes (shooting ok) with the position towards birds (shooting not ok).
Necessity wasn`t mentioned. Neither was an alternative shown for hunting birds (using falcons etc. would be more like coursing, which is felt undesirable concerning foxes).

As to a moral approach one should consider that death by predator is natural for game - much more natural than the conditions chicken, pigs and cows living in on what are more meat-factories than farms.
Which exist because the general public (non-hunting) wants to buy the cheapest meat around ignoring that this causes inhuman conditions for animals.

Grab is quite right: game is more carefully (i.e. !ecologically correct") managed than most farm animals.

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: gnu
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:15 PM

Well... how's about them sheep, eh? Once, twice a year, they get chased, penned, manhandled.... SHEAR TERROR for the poor buggers. It goes on for years!!!! And for what? So you can wear fancy sweaters and mittens!! It's an outrage. An OUTRAGE!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:41 PM

Let's discuss this in dead ernest (could not resist that).

Killing fox necessary (allegedly, farmers say so, etc, etc) - ergo do it as humanely as possible. Got a better way than shooting?
Shooting bird (usually) not necessary - so don't do it.

See? Easy when you stop to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:42 PM

But what if the bird is regarded as a cash crop and thus a source of income for you as a farmer?
You can either keep it in pens, which stifle its natural instincts, and then cart it off in plastic crates to a slaughterhouse where someone will hang it up by its back legs and electrocute it (which is what happens to nearly all the poultry sold) or you can rear it to a certain point and then let it take its chance in the wild, to have around a 40 per cent chance of being shot on the wing the following winter.
If I was a bird, I thing I know which one I'd choose!
And, as for jobs, as someone who shoots, I have no problem in accepting the figures from the survey which, although commissioned by the CLA and BASC, was not carried out by them.
What is odd is that the BBC considers it newsworthy, as the information has been on the BASC website for about three years

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:02 PM

Richard, I agree that a good shot causes lhe least suffering (The kind of coursing where you hunt down a fox with a pack of hounds and riders is not considered ethical among hunters here in Germany, btw).

Still I don`t get why shooting foxes is different from shooting birds. With the poultry in modern farms foxes don`t get much of a chance to get them. Different with cormorants and fish-farms, maybe?

The real important about hunting is not about necessity but about the ecological effects: does hunting endanger the species? With the modern way of hunting which includes wildlife-management in the sense of conservation of the species it won`t. Nowadays species become extinct because humankind is destroying their habitats. And I don`t talk about farmers or hunters here: it is the general population`s demands for cheap food, clothing, heating, teak garden furniture etc. ...
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

Because you need to kill foxes. You mostly don't need to kill wild birds.

Cash crop birds can be killed more efficiently and with less pain to them by electrocution - and you don't shoot them anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

Do I understand you correctly Richard: you need foxes to prevent them from killing your poultry before you can kill them yourself?

So why is killing poultry better than killing pheasants or ducks? All are edible?

And pardon: I am not familiar with the term "cash crop birds" - is this poultry?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ibo
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:22 PM

All fox hunters are pompous inbred idiots who think more of themselves than anything else on this earth.Get a life you gits and let nature take its course.If we were not on this planet the rest of nature would manage itself very well.Oh,and farmers,just build better fences to protect your stock.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:27 PM

WTF?

A cash crop is, well, a cash crop.

If a fox eats it it is a cash loss, geddit?

Duck for the table---reared in captivity.

Pheasant for the table - largely reared in captivity.

Rabbit for the table - largely reared in captivity.

What do you need to shoot it for? Fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:05 PM

If they really want to kill foxes, why don't they go hunting at night like the foxes do. I bet theres not many musicians who don't see foxes coming home late at night. Also the town foxes are are fat and slow, they lumber round from one fast food outlet to the next.

Most of them just stare at you, sort of bewildered - what the hell are you doing round this time of night - this is my time. You could probably catch them with a tin of kennomeat, a butterfly net and a paper bag. You wouldn't need all them dogs and horses and things.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:27 PM

i like you weelittledrummer,foxes are lovely to look at and i see very few in my lifetime.If they are an incredible nuisance why dont i see more after my late night gigging

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:43 PM

Strange that Mrs Shanbles remarked as we came home from our session tonight that we have not seen as many foxes lately as we usially do.

Graham you are addressing an ex slaughterman.

Yes we should all be prepared to kill and see killed the things we eat.

But there is not any justifcation for killing only for our selfish pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:33 PM

That's the point. it's that certain people kill for FUN. It doesn't matter what it is they kill, they have rituals and take pleasure in the blood letting. We all know where that leads. I'll bet the guards at Buchenwald were all enthusiastic boar hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:23 PM

Yes and Hitler was a vegetarian...yawn

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:42 AM

I'd dispute that hunting contributes anything significant to the rural economy. The problems of the countryside are simple to state and hard to fix- jobs, housing, transport, schooling, entertainment (particularly for the young), pollution, traffic, etc.

Hunting provides a few, usually low- paid, jobs in some areas, but the bulk of the problem is the result of the long-term collapse of agricultural employment due to mechanisation, and the replacement of steady jobs by casual cheap labour. And aas a corollary, the collapse of the rural commercial infrastructure like shops and service industries, caused by easy (car) transport to towns with their supermarkets and so on.

There is an unremarked crisis in small country towns, as shops and services close down, the premises usually being converted to yet more housing for commuting incomers, who have little social or commercial connection with their new country home, and whose high incomes are spent elsewhere and so contribute nothing to the local economy.

If the Countryside Alliars had had any interest in the countryside as other than a place to hunt, they would have brought these issues to the fore. But they are a one- issue campaign, and for the English countryside it is the wrong issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:31 AM

Sorry, I thought this thread was about shooting rather than hunting? Far more people in rural areas are involved in shooting than in hunting - not just as economic dependents but as active participants. Trouble is, it's tarred with many of the preconceptions that get lobbed at hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:44 AM

Shooting bird (usually) not necessary - so don't do it

Problem is that these birds (and deer too) aren't domesticated and mostly wouldn't adapt to being kept in a barn. Catching fish is not necessary either from the PoV of keeping yourself or your possessions safe, but I'd be prepared to bet everything I own that you've had a fish supper at some point in your life. ;-)

Fair enough Shambles, I wasn't aware of that. And I'd agree that you shouldn't kill what you're not going to eat (unless it's a serious pest/predator). But I see no problem with taking pleasure in hunting effectively - basically pleasure in a job well done.

Paul, you're right about these problems, and I think the Countryside Alliance *do* worry about this. It's only "unremarked" by Westminster, where it's not enough of a vote-loser for the buggers to do anything (like provide proper transport links for rural communities).

As you say though, it's hard to fix. Given the current state of the agricultural economy, an awful lot of farmers have realised that leisure activities are a profitable sideline (often subsidising the main business of farming which may be break-even at best). If you axe these profitable activities, the farmers may well go under. For all the farmers that lost their livelihoods during foot-and-mouth, in a bunch of cases itwasn't foot-and-mouth itself that killed them, it was lack of tourists. And lack of tourists also killed off a whole lot of other rural businesses.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:17 AM

Gervase, shooting is often the only use the commuters/ green welly brigade have for the countryside. No, you can't save the countryside by turning it into an Archers theme park, with shoots and golf courses for the SUV mob. The only possible solution is through a reinvigoration of agriculture, the imposition on commuters of the real costs of their transport, and the reconstruction of a meaningful rural economy in which the inhabitants interact economically with each other, not via the mediation of Sainsbury's 20 miles away. The French realised that decades ago, that's why they are so keen on agricultural subsidies.

As for death sports generally, let's get this straight- civilised people don't kill things for fun. Remember, that's one of the "charges" made against the fox. Kill to eat if you must, kill to protect yourself, kill to maintain the balance of stocks, kill for hygiene.

Conceded that shooting at birds reared for the shoot is better than the usual Continental way of popping off at anything that moves. But if you like to play with things that go bang, shoot clay rhinos.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:18 AM

well they could still wear red coats and chase after foxes with butterfly nets, tins of kennomeat, and paper bags. twould be a grand sight.

I am at a loss to know why you don't see foxes after late night gigging. where do you gig? I thought everybody did. Once I saw an owl and wrote a song and essay about it - its on my website. Once I saw a badger, galloping along at the side of the road. Great big Sandy coloured bum. Mary de Ville (performance poet) swears she saw the beast of Bodmin.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The PA
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:21 AM

Guest Ibo,

"All fox hunters are pompous inbred idiots, Oh,and farmers,just build better fences to protect your stock."

You obviously know absolutely nothing about the countryside, and if you claim to, well you've just made yourself sound completely foolish. Anyone who makes such idiotic sweeping statements is simply not worth discussing the subject with!

We are constantly renewing fences which are damaged and not by locals. We know how important good fencing is. National Hunt race horses also spend time on exercise and training while out hunting. But of course Ibo, you'd know all that wouldn't you, being an expert. Oh and I do object to being described as inbred. That is not only an insult to me but my family, not what the mudcat is for!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:46 AM

shooting is often the only use the commuters/ green welly brigade have for the countryside. No, you can't save the countryside by turning it into an Archers theme park, with shoots and golf courses for the SUV mob
I dunno what sort of shoots you attend, but it ain't like that on mine. They tend to be run by and for local people of all backgrounds (though predominantly agricultural).
As for killing things for fun - that's a trickier one. I do enjoy shooting, but the actual killing of the quarry isn't the whole point. It's an area where loftier minds than mind have struggled, but I suppose one can see it as a connection in the Forsterean sense with one's quarry; an atavistic feeling, to be sure, but one which connects the table and the field with the eater and the hunter.
I don't get the same connection from standing in the meat aisle of Tesco (or Waitrose) and looking a pallid lines of shrink-wrapped carcasses which have emerged sanitised and stripped of all associations from some factory. Someone like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall is probably better able to articulate this than me,
It's an area where, I fear, the shooter and the anti will never meet.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:07 AM

Do you make up the stuff for Pseud's Corner in Private Eye? :)

You are right on the level that all meat eating, use of leather or bone or horn etc, involves killing animals. But I'm saying there's a huge difference between killing because you have to, and killing for the sake of enjoying it. Meat in this country is an unhealthy mess, and people ought to connect more with the processes by which it is produced. I suspect that there'd be a lot more veggies around if they did, even if only because humanely produced meat would be a LOT more expensive. But I can't see hunting non- meat animals or shooting birds as helping.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:54 AM

It's an area where loftier minds than mind have struggled, but I suppose one can see it as a connection in the Forsterean sense with one's quarry; an atavistic feeling, to be sure, but one which connects the table and the field with the eater and the hunter.

When the hunted is equally armed to shoot back - the feeling you struggle to describe may be just blind terror.

Have you ever tried paintball?

I remember when every other kid in the area seemed to have capapults and were skilled at hunting and killing songbirds. I suspect for pretty much the same feeling as you struggle to describe. Only they did not try to justify it as their right, as them saving the countryside or providing employment.

I eventually got one too and after much failed stalking through the young elms that then covered the local railway embankment, I did managed to hit and kill a young blackbird. As I held and admired the the limp form in my hand, I felt totally ashamed and have never killed anything for fun again.

This need may be in all of us but perhaps it is something that most of us do grow out of?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:16 AM

I hunt and target shoot. Most of my hunting was in the past, and today I rarely get out into the fields and woods due to illness.
My entire family are archers,target shooters, or hunters. We enjoy games of skill (including golf). My job for the last 20 years has been hunting for people lost at sea, and sometimes overland. I have dedicated my life to saving lives not taking them.

The thrill of the hunt is something that never leaves you. Killing is to have hunted. Game is something you cannot buy in shops. In rural parts of Canada and America wild game is as much a part of staple diet as store bought meat is to city folk. There is something infinately exciting about providing a meal of fresh caught fish and game. For those who cannot understand this type of life I feel pity.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:22 PM

I don't hunt. But I second Dave on the common inclusion of wild caught or killed fish and game in the rural diet in Canada. Rural areas here are not doing well economically. Anyone who hunts and comes home with a large animal (deer, moose) or a lot of geese or ducks generally passes the meat out among friends and neighbours, and it is welcome. Store meat is expensive (and so are vegetables, as a matter of fact). A few kilos of free meat can mean paying a bill that week instead of spending the cash at a grocery.

That said, whoever decided wild fish-eating ducks were edible must have been very hungry indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

The thrill of the hunt is something that never leaves you.

The thrill of killing wild things (that can't shoot back) for fun is something that has certainly left me. Perhaps it is time it left you?

But if the thrill of the hunt never leaves us - are there ways you can still have this thrill without needing to kill anything for fun?

Many children who started out by collecting wild birds eggs can still use these skills by bird-watching and scientific study and the thrill of stalking your wild quarry in order photograph them for fun is perhaps a lot more preferable to killing them for fun?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM

But I can't see hunting non- meat animals or shooting birds as helping
Agreed - I wouldn't shoot something I wouldn't eat, and I don't approve of those that do.
That said, I've accounted for countless rabbits, pigeons, pheasants, partridges, ducks and a few geese in my time, and have enjoyed both the pursuit and the eating of every one.
I'm a lot happier doing that than I would be buying something anonymous in a supermarket. When it comes to meat, I like to know where it came from and how it was produced. Which reminds me - time to cart two barren ewes off to the slaughterhouse before the tup goes in. Plenty of mutton on the way!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:05 PM

If you wear cotton clothing, you are in part responsible for the wholesale killing of literally millions (if not billions) of small mammals, birds, reptiles, insects, directly by agricultural poisons and machinery, and indirectly by massive destruction of habitat. Consider that almost six billion people wear cotton, and consider the amount of acreage of cotton fields that requires. In fact, all agriculture kills wild creatures, or displaces them permanently. Various ground nesting birds (for example) disappear entirely from farmland, wiped out by cutting machines.

Vegetarians and vegans are as responsible as meat eaters for endless animal suffering and death when human impact in general is considered. The number of creatures killed by hunters is tiny in comparison to the numbers killed by agriculture, petroleum use, draining of swamps, burning of forests, building of highways and cities, industrial chemicals, and on and on.

As far as the rest of life on earth is concerned, humans are a devastating killing plague. Species are becoming extinct at a great and increasing rate, and hunters have little to do with that. You might point at the despicable hunting of rare animals for ridiculous cures, but the animals at risk are rare more because of habitat loss than poaching. The poachers are just finishing the job.

Killing an animal you intend to eat is one way of directly facing your human impact on animals. In my opinion it can be a very honest undertaking, and most of the hunters I know are very honest about how they feel about the animal they kill. I'm not so honest, myself, as I don't hunt but am willing to eat game meats.

Trophy hunting and hunting from planes seems to me a frivolous waste of animal life. I don't approve. But it seems senseless and hypocritical to single out food hunters as depraved examples of humanity while wearing a pair of jeans and a cotton shirt.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

But it seems senseless and hypocritical to single out food hunters as depraved examples of humanity while wearing a pair of jeans and a cotton shirt.

It probably would if anyone was doing that.

The main thrust here seems to be to try and justify the killing of wild animals for fun as being of some great benefit - in order not to be prevented from be able to continue to indulge in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

No, not of great benefit. Just as the making of music is of no great benefit. Tell you what - you stick to Radio 2 and Classic FM for your music, and I'll stick to the supermarkets for my meat. Then we'll both probably be approaching the issue from the same direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:48 PM

"justify the killing of wild animals for fun" I'd include that as trophy hunting, I think.

However, it's my opinion (and observation) that the joy many hunters experience is rather more complex than 'fun'. I am speaking from a Canadian experience, of course. The UK is a vast foriegn culture, and I don't know what constitutes hunting there, other than what one reads about fox-hunting (which is done here with no involvement of foxes, just a smelly bait dragged over the course).

The hunters I know are shocked and disgusted by such things as 'canned hunts', which are no mre than plain abattoir style slaughter, involving no skill and no real confrontation with prey animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,CharleyR
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:55 PM

"Vegetarians and vegans are as responsible as meat eaters for endless animal suffering and death when human impact in general is considered. The number of creatures killed by hunters is tiny in comparison to the numbers killed by agriculture, petroleum use, draining of swamps, burning of forests, building of highways and cities, industrial chemicals, and on and on."

I don't agree that vegetarians and vegans are 'as responsible as meat eaters' for animal suffering and death given the enormous numbers of animals created, used and killed for food in this country and others (see info below, if you're interested). And I bet if there were more vegetarians and vegans among the people who control the forest burning, use of industrial chemicals and so on, there'd be a lot less of it.

But back to the original topic - it's just a shame that there are people out there who take pleasure in the killing of other living creatures. Whether or not they should be prevented from doing so I really don't know, it's just unfortunate the situation exists at all. And while it's true that the animals who are killed through shooting do have a better life than those kept in factory farms and killed, it's not really much of a comparison, is it?


"800 million animals are slaughtered anually in the UK.

The vast majority of these animals will have spent their brief lives in the cramped, distressing conditions of the factory farm. Their close confinement and the overworking of their bodies will have led to increased susceptibility to injury and disease. They will have been reared on an unnatural diet designed to increase productivity and many will have undergone various painful and traumatic procedures.

Those that make it to the slaughterhouse (and many do not - dying of neglect, exposure, disease, and starvation) must endure a final journey in over-crowded, under-ventilated vehicles, by land or sea, before they are killed and butchered.

Dairy cows and laying hens are amongst the most ill-treated of all farm-animals. With their bodies being viewed as factories for food production, they are often over-worked and neglected. When they have been worked to the point of exhaustion, they end their days in the same way as those raised solely for the meat trade. No farm animal can avoid the slaughterhouse and the plate."

- taken from The Vegan Society website

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,CharleyR
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:08 PM

There is something infinately exciting about providing a meal of fresh caught fish and game. For those who cannot understand this type of life I feel pity.

I can see how people could take pleasure from doing this, but you don't need to feel pity for people who don't do it. Some people have an alternative sense of satisfaction with the way they provide their food, a sense of peacefulness that comes from being able to cook tasty, nutritious food that as far as possible did not require any living creatures to suffer and die just so that they could satisfy their appetites. I don't want to say that either approach here is 'better' than the other, just wanted to point out that no-one need feel sorry for me or others as non-hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Bee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:35 PM

Charley, you'll get no argument from me regarding food animals needing far better treatment. But I very much doubt the majority of vegans/vegetarians are really aware of how damaging their own lifestyle is to the planet. And perhaps you know a circle of very concerned vegans - many of the ones I know live in the city, drive cars, own lots of technology (the newest, therefore their older gear has gone to landfill, most likely), and seem to think stuff like their clothing and the plastic and metal they use comes from fairyland.

Perhaps that's not really fair: one could say at least they are doing something about that section of factory agriculture that involves animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:28 PM

No, not of great benefit. Just as the making of music is of no great benefit.

You carry on killing wild animals for fun and I will carry on making music for my benefit and for the benefit those who say they appreciate it.

But please don't carry on trying these bogus attempts to make out that you do this for anything more than your own selfish pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:18 PM

There has been some excellent discussion on this thread but I fear that there have been some phrases which have been misread or misconstrued.
GUEST 28 Sep 07.33 introduced the word FUN, seemingly having understood it to be synonymous with "pleasure". The noun "fun" seems to have been accepted by many subsequent posters in the sense of jocularity.

Grab 29 Sep 05.44 defined the attitude of country sportsmen as "taking pleasure in hunting - a job well done."

Dave (the ancient mariner)29 Sep 09.16 said "There is something infinately exciting about providing a meal of fresh caught fish and game. For those who cannot understand this type of life I feel pity."
Guest CharleyR 29 Sep 0408 pm said "I can see how people could take pleasure from doing this, but you don't need to feel pity for people who don't do it."
I can understand his remarks as there is a particular pleasure in killing a creature, preparing it, cooking and serving it at table. It is the same pleasure that a person would feel growing their own vegetables and eating them.

The pleasure these people feel is that of the craftsman - a job done with all the skill that they can manage. It gives no pleasure to any craftsman to see a poorly performed job. The craft of stalking your prey in an environment totally foreign to you but is the natural habitat of the prey. The craft of using your tool, be it rod or gun, to the best of your ability. The craft of despatching your quarry with as clean a kill as is possible. Man is a natural hunter, it is just that the skills of hunting, like so many other skills, have been lost by the majority of the town-dwelling population.

I can sympathise with The Shambles, who I don't think I have met but generally find worth listening to. He, having worked in an abattoir, has seen sights of which most of us would have nightmares. Let's face it, even the supermarkets have removed those lovely posters showing from which part of which animal the cuts of meat come! The public seems to have an aversion to likening their Sunday joint to cow, pig or sheep!

How many of the detractors of shooting will happily carry their rods and a ton of equipment to a river bank and then return to the water anything that they catch? Is this not much more cruel than killing something for the pot? There was coment on TV News a couple of weeks ago from some Angling Society member, complaining about some Eastern European chaps who were fishing "his" waters and taking home any fish that they caught! Is that not the point of fishing?

Colyn.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:58 AM

But please don't carry on trying these bogus attempts to make out that you do this for anything more than your own selfish pleasure.
...and that of my family and friends, who eat the results, of course. I don't think they regard pigeon pie, rabbit casserole, game soup or roast pheasant as 'bogus'.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:08 AM

I don't think they regard pigeon pie, rabbit casserole, game soup or roast pheasant as 'bogus'.

Perhaps you should serve them up every wild animal you take pleasure in killing? Like foxes and rats?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:31 PM

I think they'd rather eat the lamb and mutton that results from not having a hungry old dog fox living at the top of the main field. I don't rear sheep to feed the fox, and I don't think you'll find a sheep farmer who wouldn't shoot a fox.
And, as for rats, are you saying you'd 'live and let live' with rodents in your house? I didn't take you for a Jain!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:32 PM

I have never hunted for a trophy and do not enjoy seeing animals stuffed and mounted. Perhaps some people find pleasure in the stalking and collecting of a trophy animal, but personally I don't.

There is a lot of conservation work put into making game preserves that also allow for game hunting and trophy animals. The financing is supported by hunters and the fees go to enhancing this practise. Controlled hunting is not the enemy, it is the poachers and those that hunt illegally for animal parts to serve the Asian markets, that cause the most damage. The should, and are punished severely.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:49 PM

No its not more cruel.

Most anglers are gentle and appreciative of fish. In sea fishing the usual thing is to chuck them in a bucket, and if they're big fish they can be gasping for a very long time. Having said that I'm not an angler.

I used to enjoy sea fishing til I realised how cruel it was. I could bore you with the tale, of my road to damascus conversion. I still eat fish - so yes, I'm a hypocrite. But at least nowadays I don't kill them just for the pleasure of it.

I don't jump on snails either.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:20 PM

Animal hunting a pastime for the moronic, as confirmed above. I have got to say i am horrified by those members there who think they have a right to kill animals for pleasure, and lets not try and disguise it as something else. Worse still when I see the news reports with children also supporting the countryside alliance i have to ask myself what kind of mentality do people have to bring up their children to think that being cruel to animals is the 'norm'and ok. It is not, and anyone in their right mind would see that. I guess these people were not brought up with the same values as myself and even without being told ,I knew in my heart it was wrong. I think people who support the killings are nothing more than sick twisted people. You can moan all you like, the law is now in place, tough !

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:18 PM

Funny how people can't seem to tell the difference between hunting and shooting. isn't it? Mention of one generates the pavlovian response to the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:34 PM

Ten Brent Geese tagged in Ireland to monitor their migration to Greenland didn`t all make it, five met their fate at the hands of their killers in Greenland, although one of the gormless bastards returned a leg of an unfortunate bird complete with monitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:58 PM

Funny how people can't seem to tell the difference between hunting and shooting. isn't it? Mention of one generates the pavlovian response to the other.

If I could arrange for you to killed by both a hunter and a shooter - we could see if you could determine any diference.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: terrier
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:37 PM

A few months ago, a fox killed a number of my laying hens then came back several days later and killed the rest of them. None were missing... just dead hens.
I wonder how many city people have seen the result of a Badger attack on a flock of sheep just after lambing? It's a sorry sight to see in the morning a field strewn with the carcasses of lambs with their intestines ripped out. Non missing...just dead.
I keep cats, not as pets, but as working animals. It's their natural instinct to hunt, Try telling them not to kill a rat or mole. Should I have been ashamed when I saw my she cat stalk a dove for some minutes before launching itself from it's vantage point on top of the hen run and taking the dove in mid flight. The cat has to eat. (yes, I do feed her)
On the day I moved into my home in the country, a Robin sang a welcome from a tree just opposite the side door. An hour later, the Robin lay dead by the doorstep and another, younger, fitter Robin sang the same song from the same tree.
I detest the use of Larson traps to ensnare Magpies, but I love to see the small garden birds flourish in the Summer. For all you Townies, Magpies are excellent hunters of small prey and they don't work alone! These wily birds will work in pairs to hunt down their next meal. Living outside a city, I am surrounded by the daily routine of survival. Overhead, buzzards and hawks compete with owls for their next meal. All Hunters.
On the other hand, i've tasted the difference between 'factory farmed meat' and meat sourced locally from a farmer who takes a pride in his livelihood. However you treat it, the animal in question has to die.
As a grower of vegetables, I want to deter garden pests from ruining my crop. After all, they're taking food from my mouth!
I still have vivid memories of working in an abattoir at Christmas and hearing the distressed sounds of thousands of caged birds ready for slaughter, or in the same abattoir witnessing the panic in a wagon load of pigs who had sensed their destiny. A number of them died before they got out of the wagon.
We, humans, are not naturally vegetarians, we are omnivores. That means we kill other animals to supliment our diet. Not all animals kill 'just for food'. We, humans, are animals.
The Goose I ate for Christmas dinner was 'taken from the sky' and not from a factory and the game pie I eat is exactly what it means.
The last fox shot by a local farmer may well have been, and probably was, the fox that killed my hens!
Sorry to go on for so long, but it's a big subject.
If you can't kill it, then don't eat it !!!

DISCUSS

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:29 AM

If you want to immerse yourself in that facet of nature its your affair. Most of us live urban lives, and the taxes we pay and the money we earn for the country susidises the countryside in a million ways.

I suspect its just an evasion - on your part. Look at the thread on serial bullies - theres plenty of killing and eating alive in our jungle. Watching the egos of people torn to pieces is a daily experience for most of us. In contrast, the people I've met working in slaughter houses don't seem too upset by it.

If you want to kill things, say so. theres no shame in it. Most of us have screwed up lives somewhere down the line. just stop wrapping it up in all this sophistry.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:38 AM

For me a life that is screwed up is one where someone can happily wander down the aisles of a supermarket selecting meat that he or she knows nothing about - how the animal was raised and how it was killed. That's an abrogation of responsibility (the Pontius Pilate approach to shopping if you like). It's also a tacit collusion in intensive farming and cruelty on an unimaginable scale. When you buy 'cheap' meat, think of the real price.
If you are going to eat meat, you shoud be prepared to acquaint yourself with its origins and accept them morally. The animal deserves at least that dignity.
Oh, and Shambles - shot, any day!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:45 AM

There is nothing I would like more than to organise a weekend hunting trip to hunt bastards on a duck shoot or running around with lurchers. Anyone interested ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:23 AM

Is a butcher allowed to enjoy his job?

And how can someone who talks about "organizing a weekend trip to hunt bastards on a duck shoot or running around with lurchers" (which apparently means KILLING) etc. (there have been similar suggestions before in this thread) feel morally superior?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:37 AM

I am just in after a walk around the nature reserve on the shores of Lough Neagh. I met a wealth of nature there, Foxes, selection of hedagerow birds and water fowl.

How anyone could stop aim and kill such beauty beats me. Think about it, you stand there and watch the habits of these beauties, doing no one any harm, how could you lift a gun and kill them ? Does it make you feel good ? what is it, are you a bigger or better man for it ?

I spoke to a friend of mine who has a small farm. I asked him does he have problems with foxes around his hens ? He said no, if you are going to keep fowl you should be prepared to secure their enclosure against the acts of nature.

If I met a guy taking aim at a bird I would put him on his back, no threat, a promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Ernest
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:55 AM

As has been said before, Divis: we all destroy more animal lives with our way of living than any hunter could ever do.

I am not a better man because I hunt, but neither are you with your (our) responsibility for destroying animal habitats.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 07:54 AM

I could not agree more Ernest, I watch day after day the areas around my own home where I grew up and see housing estates planted on fields I once walked. I wrote a letter about to the local press recently and got nowhere as expected.

On the point of aiming a gun at a bird, how does it feel to see something beautiful sitting in a brush and within a fraction of a second see it dead in the name of sport or pastime? What is it like to lift it's lifeless body up and see it's blood on your hands ?

I am not putting this question to you, I am asking everyone who shoots the beauty of nature. Inside small men or weak examples of men there is always a big man trying to get out, to me these include men who beat up women, make a woman's life hell, abuse children and kill animals in the name of sport or pleasure.

In my own life I have been anything but perfect, but I just hate all of the above I just listed.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 08:40 AM

If you can't kill it, then don't eat it !!!

That is fine. But perhaps equally:

If you can't eat it, then don't kill it.

Or if you are killing for your own pleasure - then be honest enough to say so?



Is a butcher allowed to enjoy his job?

Very few butchers now kill but dress and prepare the already dead animals. So they can enjoy their job and use their skills with as much pride as any other profession and not have to kill anything.

As indeed can slaughtermen (and slaughterwomen). Although from persoanl experience I been more than concerned at the attitudes and conduct shown at times by some of my colleagues. There does seem to be a trait in humans where just killing the animal quickly and gently as possible - does not seem to be enough.

There appears to be a need to also dominate and humilate. It is not pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:17 AM

I accept the responsibility for all the nasty business of killing the stuff I eat. Just as I accept the tank full of petrol probably is not unconnected with whats going on in Iraq.

But as an ex sea angler, I don't think that's got bugger all to do with anything. My big push in life was to take a 50lb conger from where it was happily existing under one of the rocks in the 'snake pit' off pulpit rock near portland bill.

I never managed it, though I killed a lot of other big fish in my quest. They were probably better at being fishes than I was at being a man.

One or two places do conger steaks, but they're a bit boney I'm told. Apparently most of the congers caught end up as cat food.

Admit it. You like the hunt, the killing etc. I always did. And I refuse to get tearful about Christopher Robin's Piglet in my sausage roll.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: terrier
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:53 AM

If am given a brace of Pheasant to eat which have been killed (shot) for 'sport' should I not accept them because they were not born and bred in a factory 'farm' and ended their days on an abatoir hook. In accepting them am I not saying to the 'sport hunter' "it's OK to kill for sport". Srange business this.

In case I was misunderstood in my earlier posting, I do not own a gun nor any other weapon for that matter. I am one of those people who can eat but not kill. I leave that side of it to people such as Shambles and I thank them for it.

Truly the Pheasant is a beautiful bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 11:52 AM

Shambles, you still haven't answered the rodent question. Is Chez Shambles an open house for rats and mice? Or would a slow death from Rentokil-administered poison be preferable to a lead pellet or a terrier?

Some of the posts on this thread do raise all sorts of odd issues, however...

As I understand it, if one sheds a tear for the beast and gets absolutely no enjoyment from any part of its coming to the table, then it's OK to eat it? Or are there degrees of 'guilt' - the person that shoots the rabbit is more culpable than the person that says 'could you get me a rabbit', who is in turn more culpable than the cook, who shoulders more blame than the people who eat it?

Or should we only eat creatures that have been raised and killed out of our sight by lesser beings who in their debased state will take on the sin for us?

Surely the only truly honest way to go if you have issues with the death of animals is to be completely vegan. Otherwise, every time you so much as put milk in your tea you are complicit in the shooting in the head of day-old calves.

And where does our compassion end? Warm blooded or cold-blooded? Chordate or not? There are some flatworms which are things of beauty, yet liver fluke isn't very nice. Do flies have 'rights'. Who is to say that swatting a fly or a wasp is not more culpable than killing a rat? Where's Jeremy Bentham when you need him?

This thread could be about to get interesting, provided we can keep the 'if I see someone killing something I'll kill them' types away from their keyboards...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha.
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 01:24 PM

I have seen the gormless bastards stuffing their bins with dead fowl, the hunters I know are as thick as they come, and ruthless, as I have said before on this Site, I have heard them boast of shooting any variety of bird.   Are you other killers on this Thread honest enough to admit you eat all you kill, or are your means of disposal also the bin?.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:13 PM

Sadly hunting is a national pastime, I know it is in the Dales. See the Great North Run claimed another victim, four last year. When is this murder run going to end.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:41 PM

Shambles, you still haven't answered the rodent question. Is Chez Shambles an open house for rats and mice? Or would a slow death from Rentokil-administered poison be preferable to a lead pellet or a terrier?

Not sure that our dog and cats are very effective at actually killing anything - but they do seem to act as enough of a deterrent to keep the house free from the obvious signs of rats and mice.

Just as we found that adequate fencing of our poultry was enough of a deterrent to avoid predators.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 07:38 PM

People who just kill for fun are complete and utter bastards,and there are plenty of them out there in the country.They hide under the disguise of caring farmer,but you are evil bloodthirsty heathens and i hope you rot in hell.Keep your poultry in adequate modern coops and the fox will not harm them,spend some money you ignorant barbaric rabble.You disgust all true animal lovers,and lovers of a harmonic natural countryside.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:22 AM

Should I assume from the tenor of your post, GUEST,ibo, that you live in a town?

Whatever. If I were to fence all of my land with 'foxproof' fencing it would mean pulling out the old hedgerows that act as a haven for wildlife and which are several hundred years old (and which, belatedly, are being protected). Do you think I should do this to stop the foxes killing the lambs? (and, on a philosophical note, I would assume that a heathen would not have the concept of hell, so your imprecation is a little assumptive).

I have to say, if the spelling, punctuation and syntax is any guide, the "ignorant, barbaric rabble" seems to be made up of those opposed to hunting, or shooting, or eating meat, or indeed daring to live anywhere that doesn't have a McDonalds and street lighting!

And, Ard Macha, I completely agree - anyone that behaves like that is a disgrace and should be reported to the police and other relevant authorities, and should not be licensed to use firearms. That sort of behaviour is sickening and only serves to tarnish everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:39 AM

Sorry Gervase to disagree, living close to the countryside I come into contact with many wildfowlers [killers] and it is sad to say that they glory in their deeds, how can anyone look with pride at a dead bird full of shotgun pellets.
Living a long time among my fellow humans I despair at their cruelty, is it any wonder that I prefer my dog when compared to some of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:54 AM

Alright Gervase you have convinced me.

In order to free our house of all possible vermin - I will open the front door and let loose a pack of dogs. Mrs Shambles and I will then don hunting pinks, saddle up our trusty hunters, invite the local worthies to do the same and will charge around from room to room leaping the furniture and have jolly good time.

If any living thing should survive this - we will then don green wellies and blast every room with double-barreled shotguns, along with our double-barreled neighbours.

It would be nice to think that the poster known as 'Gervase' is a complete 'wind-up'. Sadly I fear that he is the real thing.

Probably the worst diservice the 'Cuntryside Are Liars' ever attempted was to split us neatly into 'townies' and 'us that know what the really countyside needs even through we only visit every other weekend'. [Sorry if the spelling isn't quite right - it was the way many of its supporter seemed to pronouce it.]

Thankfully this attempt was seen for the sham it always was - designed only to enable small groups of selfish people to carry on doing exactly as they wished and to be free from the same judgement that they had always felt they had the right to impose on others.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:19 AM

Sorry Shambles, not a wind-up. A living, breathing person who posts here under his own name (were you really called 'Shambles' by your parents? If so, you have my sympathy). Anyway, I'm afraid you lost me there somewhere round the back of the sofa. I was following your arguments until you started jumping around the house; what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

Aside from that, it would have been nice to have had some proper argument about the ethics of shooting and food production in general, but that seems as unlikely as ever, reading the threads here.

I can sympathise with Ard Macha because he seems to be speaking from experience (you should take down the registration numbers of any vehicles belonging to people who do that and report them to the police or the RSPCA - as I said, that sort of behaviour is appalling), but for the rest, it seems that the arguments are based on a level of ignorance, blind prejudice and kneejerk anthropomorphism that one would expect to see in young teenagers.

So, how about some sensible debate on the issue? Please. Or are we always going to resort to 'yah-boo' name calling and personal attacks? And does the abuse actually make the abuser feel better? To use terms like 'inbred idiot', 'twisted', 'moronic', and 'liar' is hardly going to make an opponent sit up and take stock and think: 'Gosh, this person really does have the answers. I can see the error of my ways and will become a vegan forthwith!'. Or is the abuse in some way cathartic? Or, dare I say it, 'fun' - a little thrill at an anonymous insult delivered to someone you've never met. A bit like sticking out your tongue behind the teacher's back in ther maturity stakes, perhaps?

So, to get back to the issue in hand, could someone please tell me why it is wrong to shoot animals for food in the wild when we electrocute them, slit their throats or shoot them in slaughterhouses? And why it is wrong to shoot pests but not to poison them?

And, when replying, if your first temptation is to unleash a torrent of abuse, just pause for a second, take a deep breath and do something more constructive (like clicking on the Hunger Site or something). You're not going to change anyone's mind with vitriol.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 07:00 AM

Shambles I seen Gervase on TV doing a re-hab job on his country mansioN.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:23 AM

I actually live in the countryside and drink with yokels who brag about their kills.They definately dont kill for food,and believe me a lot of the fat gormless gits could do with skipping a few meals.Yes, i eat meat,but i prefer mine prepared by the local butchers and not from these mindless yobs who kill for the pleasure of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 08:53 AM

Guest ibo, Would you rather live free as a wild animal, or couped up in a pen until slaughtered? Either way you still eat meat and are a bigoted hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:17 AM

Perhaps the butcher has a magic fridge which fills with prime cuts of meat that never were part of a living animal - or if they were, they were from animals that queued up meekly for humane rendering at the hands of gentle nuns armed with nothing nastier than bowls of hemlock. And I take it your butcher would never dream of selling pheasant or venison either.

To be honest, though, I'm with you on mindless yobs who kill for the pleasure of it. People who do that are yobs and have no place in a civilised society.
If, however, they kill to put food on the table or to sell to the butcher or to control pests, then fair play, that's part of life. You may not like it - just as some people don't like morris dancers, anglers or folk who play cricket - but that's your problem, not theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:18 AM

Do you kill for fun mr mariner,are you a dipstick?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:23 AM

Thanks Gervase,my sentiments exactly,you are obviously a decent bloke,unlike those blood sucking vermin who appear to dislike me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:21 AM

Already stated i'm a hunter. At least if i'm going to eat animals I have no hesitation on being able to kill one; unlike people like you who believe that they are so "superior" just because they unwrap meat from a butcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: redsnapper
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:54 AM

I love shooting wild animals....



...but only with my cameras

RS

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:06 PM

Cameras are ideal for shooting animals,i agree totally.Perhaps you may even get a photo of those evil gits who celebrate killing with the family,fancy horses and a bottle of best vintage bubbly.CHEERS,ENJOY.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 11:30 AM

Think about it, you stand there and watch the habits of these beauties, doing no one any harm, how could you lift a gun and kill them?

Or all those clucking chickens and swimming fish and skipping lambs and calves? How could you lift a ... knife and fork and eat big fat slices of their flesh every day of the week, Divis?

Ibo, you're right - killing just for killing's sake is disgusting. But killing what you're going to eat is just fine by me, and I don't see a problem in taking pleasure in doing that job well. Nor killing of vermin which would otherwise damage property and spread disease. Nor culling for the purpose of keeping the main population healthier.

and to be free from the same judgement that they had always felt they had the right to impose on others.

If you choose not to kill anything, including your chickens, then that's fine, Shambles. But other people's choice to kill things (even if it's for a lousy reason, like "just because they can") is not imposing on you in any way whatsoever, except in the obvious way that if they kill too many then they'll eventually deprive the whole world of them.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 03:31 PM

If you choose not to kill anything, including your chickens, then that's fine, Shambles. But other people's choice to kill things (even if it's for a lousy reason, like "just because they can") is not imposing on you in any way whatsoever, except in the obvious way that if they kill too many then they'll eventually deprive the whole world of them.

Graham - I have watched with some ammusment as the class in our country that have been traditionally associated with hunting and shooting and who have always felt they have a God-given right to judge interfere, prevent and comment on every aspect of what others choose do for their pleasure - have nearly exploded with indignation at the thought of the great-unwashed having the audacity to judge, interfere, prevent and comment on their pleasures..... How dare they?

I am reminded of Dad's Army's Corporal Jones phrase: - 'They don't like it up-em sah! Indeed they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:34 PM

(sans biscuit using the memsahib's laptop)
Sorry Shambles,you've done it again. I confess - I'm lost. What in the name of the pope's underpants prompts the death-defying leap from killing chickens to the class struggle?
As a quondam marxist, I have to admire your chutzpah, but even I'm a little bit puzzled.
Do tell...
(And it's odd that only in England (and not Wales or Scotland or Italy or FRance or...) is the hunting and shooting issue so polarised along class lines. It really is terribly sad and horribly antiquated.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 03:55 AM

Obvious, Gervaise. Bear and bull baiting and dog fighting were banned in the first third of the nineteenth century, they were the violent fun of the lower orders. Football (Ashbourne style) was for rough'yeds and banned almost everywhere. Cockfighting and fistfighting crossed class boundaries, but the powerful and respectable were against gambling. Fox hunting and shooting were the pastimes of the 'Arry Stockrats, and remained untouched. Cockfighting and fistfighting crossed class boundaries, but the powerful and respectable were against gambling. The game laws- for offences against which thousands of ordinary folks were fined and imprisoned, hundreds hanged or transported- were enacted to protect their sport. Class definitely is right there at the basis of both sides of the bloodsports debate.

How did you get from Marxism to the Countryside Alliance? I know it's said that he who isn't a radical when young lacks soul, he who isn't a conservative when old lacks brain, but that just means I'm still young.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:36 AM

(And it's odd that only in England (and not Wales or Scotland or Italy or FRance or...) is the hunting and shooting issue so polarised along class lines. It really is terribly sad and horribly antiquated.

Some may argue (many Scotish persons in particular) that in fact most of Scotland has been owned by this class and set aside for their pusuits? And that it still is.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:56 AM

Of course this is one of the myriad debates that, for us English, is inevitably class based. I remember a thread about hunting a couple of years ago and the poor old Yanks were breathless at how we neatly divided along class lines on this one. Apparently hunting is a blue collar thing over there.

The hunting fraternity assured me that THEIR local hunt was packed out with miners, factory workers, unemployed, single parents, etc. Must be like a cross between the TUC and the green room on Coronation street, where RADA types concentrate on the getting the right timbre into enunciating 'ey oop!, 'ecky thump!, and willie 'eckerslke!

I can't really understand why we haven't banned hunting completely. As soon as the tories get in, despite all this crap about Ian Duncan Smith loving us us all, and caring terribly about us, and all his best friends manning call centres (the mind really works overtime on that one? - maybe the I 'm wearing little white panties one!) - as soon as they're in they're going to start shafting us.

So I think we should kick them up the arse with this one, and bloody hard! A pre-emptive strike - they've obviously got weapons of mass destruction in there somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 07:09 AM

Take a look at the websites for the Deer Commission/Forestry Commission/National Heritage Site/Gamekeepers Association and read about what training and level of expertise that must be attained before you can qualify to shoot large game in the UK. The sites will also give information on the rather stringent rules that must be followed with regard to the carcass of the animal once shot.

So restrictive is shooting in the UK that the species of deer that is represents our largest game animal (Red Deer) is on the verge of being classified as vermin because of the damage it is doing to the countryside - all because populations are running out of control. Two to three mile sections of the main roads in the Highlands and north-east of Scotland have recently been closed off by the Police for short periods to allow marksmen to cull deer close to roads in locations where deer have caused accidents in crossing the roads.

Fishing - only ever fished for Brown Trout, Sea Trout or Salmon - anything caught was eaten. I have never seen the attraction in coarse fishing, sitting by a body of water watching a float, waiting for it to bob up and down, then take the fish, that you can't eat, and put it in a keep-net only to be released at the end of the day.

Shooting - Elg, Deer and Wild Boar - again anything shot is eaten. I do not believe in shooting trophies. The training for this was very comprehensive, where I hunt everybody has to qualify each year before the start of the hunting season. You do not aim at anything unless you are certain of a safe, clear shot (i.e. clear sighting of the animal with a solid back-drop behind it), you do not fire unless you are certain of killing it cleanly. The place we hunt is a wild-life centre, the owner and the locals normally hunt it but allow two "Guest" hunting parties in each season. The landowner cares for the place through-out the year, all food served to the people that visit the centre comes from his land (grown or shot). On arrival the landowner briefs the hunters precisely on what animals they may shoot (Mature Bull/Buck; Juveniles (up to 2 year olds); Cows/Does; Calves) all other animals are left alone. He husbands the land and has detailed knowledge of what is ranging on it, he ensures the survival of the animals in winter by growing forage for them and by putting out salt licks for them in summer, this provides sustainability of his business. Whereas before when he ran his land as a farm it employed him and members of his family, now run as a wild-life centre it employs him, members of his family and about ten other employees. Having seen the place it seems a terrific way to make a living.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 08:54 AM

Only you have to kill animals, mix with the upper classes, live a long way from a folk club.....

If it were any more perfect, I'd get the job applicants certified.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 09:22 AM

A bit chippy there, weelittledrummer? No exactly the milkman of human kindness today - maybe it's time to think again about that vegan diet!
To be honest I don't mind mixing with anyone, and some of the best singing I've heard has been in the pub after a day's hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:45 AM

yeh yeh yeh, and your whipper in lives in a council house.......where of a winters night you often share a dish of tripe with the homely couple, sat by a coal fire and listening to tales of his favourite dogs, with the fire twinkling on his wise old face.

Gervase, I'd rather drink soya milk with me ginseng biscuits.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:00 PM

*snort* ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:18 PM

So Shambles, your justification for telling other people what to do is "well they did the same to our class for years"? If I'm reminded of anything with that statement, it's the "Bold gendarmes".

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:23 PM

So Shambles, your justification for telling other people what to do is "well they did the same to our class for years"? If I'm reminded of anything with that statement, it's the "Bold gendarmes".

Not sure that I was justifying anything.

Just offering an explaination for why those loud bellows of indignation were not taken very seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 12:40 PM

yes indeed the louder the bellows, the happier we are. and we think David Cameron's a wanker.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:24 PM

Sorry, who was it who was bellowing indignantly? I must've had my head in a chip wrapper at the time, 'cos I missed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 06:21 PM

search me guv. will me lordship be requiring anal cleansing after his exertions in the toilet?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 04:54 AM

Sorry, who was it who was bellowing indignantly? I must've had my head in a chip wrapper at the time, 'cos I missed it.

Were were you in the chippie all the time The Cuntryside Are Liars were marching and appearing all over our TV screens - inciting everyone with any greviance (real or imagined) about rural life to follow them.

And all because the democratic will of the people (i.e. the law) was threatening to spoil their fun by stopping them chasing terrified foxes around the countryside before eventually tearing them apart with packs of dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 08:21 AM

Ah, the same 'democratic will of the people' that got us into the Iraq War Mk2 and gave us the three-in-a-bar fiasco? Come to think of it, I do remember the referendum on all of those.
So I suppsoe that's all OK then.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:11 AM

If the people actually got what they wanted, then fox hunting may well have been banned, but laywer hunting would be more popular than football, and we wouldn't have overcrowded prisions, as the mob would have lynched a fair number of people....

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:16 AM

100 this time ?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:22 AM

Theres too much weird shit going on in Britain, when it comes to this subject. Nobody is really unbiassed.

About forty years ago I took some kids for a stroll in the country just outside Peebles. there were foxes crucified on every gate I took the children past. I wonder what that was all about. Like something out of An American Werewolf.

However as it seems to cause genuine pain to a class that has pissed us all off. I can't help thinking - maybe we're onto someting that will set the country right.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:42 AM

Most of the people I know who are really pissed off by this are ordinary rural working class people. Next time you see a pick-up with a 'Bollocks to Blair' CA sticker, take a good look at who's driving. It won't be Arabella Strangely-Browne or Tarquin ffuchs-Tightly, I can promise you.
And I'm certainly not upper class - I'm a builder and smallholder for heaven's sake. You're probably posher than me!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:03 AM

Give up Gervase! Some of this lot see anything to do with country pursuits as some sort of ongoing Class struggle dating back to The Enclosure Act, and it's all MY fault for shooting!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:43 AM

At last .....fted, got it! I knew that expensive education would come in one day.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 10:46 AM

that's the real problem with you country types. you just don't understand our way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 11:29 AM

There are REAL problems with living a rural life - the very worst thing those who kill foxes for fun have done - is to encourage those people (some who cannot even afford to live or buy property in the areas they were born in) - is to pretend they give a f*** about these people and their REAL problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:59 PM

Once again, is there a chance we can isolate discussion of shooting game animals from a discussion of the UK class system?

All aristos are *not* into game shooting. All people into game shooting are *not* aristos.

It'd also be nice if people didn't confuse fox-hunting and game shooting. Yes, some of the same people do both. Big deal - the BNP apparently are dead keen on folk music too, but that doesn't make us all neo-Nazis, does it? :-/ FWIW, all Countryside Alliance supporters are not in favour of fox-hunting - as I'm sure you know, Shambles, fox-hunting just happened to be the tip of a rather large iceberg of farmers being crapped on from a great height.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 02:01 PM

just happened to be the tip of a rather large iceberg of farmers being crapped on from a great height.

Graham - You must have been stuck in that 'chippie' with Gervase.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 06:46 PM

It's no good Grab, his record is well and truly stuck. No point in trying reason, irony, sarcasm or thermite - the man's just about impregnable to anything but one of Spaw's more personal insultments, and I'm not going to stoop that low.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 07:47 PM

Farmer, small holders, dirt farmers - I have a lot of time for. I was born in Lincolnshire - I understand all that. I was born understanding it.

Thats why I hate you tory bastards so much. You are so exploitative of these people. The towns are your playground where you display all your wealth, political power, etc.

how long lordy, how long!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:05 AM

weelittledrummer is the most perfectly balanced person on Mudcat - displaying, as he does, "chips" the size of oak trees, one wedged firmly on each shoulder.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Gervase
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 03:19 AM

Which Tory bastards is wee chippie referring to? He says 'you' so I assume he's talking about some here? Anyone care to 'fess up, because it's not me. I was Labour, and am now Plaid.
And how long before what - the Tory bastards start displaying their wealth and power somewhere other than the towns? No thanks, you can keep 'em. There are no Tory bastards within many a mile of where I live, and long may that remain!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:31 AM

It's no good Grab, his record is well and truly stuck. No point in trying reason, irony, sarcasm or thermite - the man's just about impregnable to anything but one of Spaw's more personal insultments, and I'm not going to stoop that low.

Gervase there is nothing personal in this for me. I have not called you any names. You have a view and I have a view. Nothing that you have said has suceeded in changing my view (very much anyway).

But I do think that it should be possible for anyone with a view to be able to argue and fight for their view without involving others or needing to appeal for any like-minded to gang-up and shout-down any opposing view.

It is that aspect of this argument that has been so devisive for our country and there is no need to continue that approach on this discussion forum.

That the poster you refer to by name and who is seen and currently encouraged to name-call on our forum - is sad - but this is perhaps not an example that others should feel they should follow (or even refer to)?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:32 AM

Well I'm a Tory, as far as I'm aware not a bastard, and my landowning is limited to some houseplants. Sorry to dissapoint.

Re Eating what you kill, and vice versa, I don't as I'm not a good enough shot, and a flat isn't the best place to butcher something. I have been helping with the livestock on my uncles farm, and eaten plenty of that though, which is closer than most people get to their food.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting (hunting) and jobs in the UK
From: Grab
Date: 06 Oct 06 - 07:36 AM

I guess I must have been. Good job it was a chippy with 24-hour access to the news then, so I could find out what was going on outside...