BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI

Subject: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:01 PM

The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years in N. Ireland. The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial. The convictions hit a recent high in 2003, when serving soldiers were found guilty almost every day, 300 convictions. Considering these stats were gathered during a period of relative peace in the Province it would be interesting to see the figures for the years between 1970 and 1989. I won't hold my breath on that one. I am amazed however to see atleast these figures released.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:01 AM

220 offences of all kinds per year. How does this compare with any other group of 10000 20-odd year olds?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:36 AM

Paul is right.
The location is irrelevant.
British soldiers are among the best diciplined,so you would find the same level or much higher among soldiers anywhere in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM

I have experienced your British soldiers on the streets of my home town and they were far from being the "best disciplined" soldiers in the world, uniformed bullies would have been a better description.
I would have loved to have met one of these scum on their own, that never happened as you were confronted by a squad of well armed thugs, who looked upon the Irish as inferior beings, being told as much by their superiors didn`t help, for 30 years this numerically superior force were given the runaround by the IRA.

Lady Sylvia Hermon Unionist MP asked the question in the commons yesterday concerning the British Army`s convictions for crime,the Lady in Question would have not been a supporter of the IRA, when given the figures by armed forces minister Adam Ingram, the good Lady was "utterly astonished".
The good Lady would also be "utterly astonished" if she was ever given the number of murders carried out by the British Army when they colluded with Protestant para-militaries in the deaths of many innocent civilians, including the Dublin-Monaghan bombings in which 34 people were killed the highest figure in the troubles.

Best disciplined army in the world?, tell that to the occupied people of the rest of the world where the British held sway.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

OK, let's see 1,346 soldiers convicted for crimes in the last 6 years. Works out at an average of 224.33 each year. Roughly 15,000 British troops stationed in Northern Ireland at any given time over that period. Therefore this "criminal" element, which of course it is not, as Den admits these "crimes" include traffic offences which are civil offences not criminal, makes up 1,5% of the total contingent.

If the same percentage was applied to the British Isles as a whole on the same basis, i.e. including all those convicted of motoring offences, I think whatever government was in power would be shouting it from the rooftops, so proud would they be of their law abiding public.

Once again another disingenuous thread wracked with inaccuracies and misrepresentation.

"The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial."

Well Den, best ask for the Provost Martials figures then as they will have all the figures your 1,346 included and doubled up. Ever heard of consequential punishment Den? If you are tried before a civilian court (criminal or civil) you are also charged under military code for the offence of bringing the service into disrepute.

So courts martial deal with robbers and sex offenders do they Den? Not if the robbery was committed against a member of the public they don't, that is a civil police matter and lies outwith the jurisdiction of the military courts, in such a case the soldier would appear in front of a court martial to be dismissed the service with subsequent loss of pay and pension before he would appear before the civilian criminal court for trial and sentencing. If the robbery was committed within the service it will be dealt with within the service, normally it results in a period of time served at Colchester Detention Centre - not a nice place - very few who have ever experienced its regime ever return.

Sex Offenders Den? Define what you mean by sex offenders Den, give us some examples of sex offenders who have been tried by courts martial Den.


The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years in N. Ireland. The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial. The convictions hit a recent high in 2003, when serving soldiers were found guilty almost every day, 300 convictions. Considering these stats were gathered during a period o

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:09 AM

I think you need to calm down Teribus before you hurt yourself. What I quoted was information released by the Ministry of Defence in their words not mine. I think you're right though we should have more detail into some of the offences such as the sex offences and oh murder but you see the Ministry of Defence is not willing to divulge any details. So, sorry I can't help you. I agree with you though I think the public has the right to know. Keith and Paul your arguments are at best pathetic. Lets compare the discipline of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan over the same period. More later, right now I don't have time.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:13 AM

Sorry Den I hadn't finished:

For the four years 2001 to 2004 the crime figures for the rest of you law abiding citizens in Northern Ireland are as follows:

Note Den these do not include motoring offences other than dangerous driving and actual overall crime rates are four times the number given here, these are only the cleared/convicted figures:

2001/2002 - 28,142
2002/2003 - 32,806
2003/2004 - 35,093
2004/2005 - 33,344

Population of Northern Ireland is 1,710,000 approximately

That's an average rate of 1.9% Den - Not counting motoring offences. By the way Den I have knocked off figures for "our errant" squaddies. Streets are hardly safe enough for our brave lads to walk down eh Den?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM

Robbery, Rape, Murder, Discipline:
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
You gotta' love Sesame Street, the wisdom of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

Den, you said that my arguments were pathetic at best.
In my short post I simply made a statement.
Re Canadian army discipline, I would rate it as highly as british army discipline.

Ard, how many other peace keeping forces have you experience of to make comparisons?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM

On Den's invitation - "Lets compare the discipline of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan over the same period."

Rather difficult to do Den:
- they haven't been there six years.
- they are on active service, therefore they will not appear before any civilian courts in Afghanistan
- they are unlikely to be driving around for pleasure, hence opportunity for the Afghan Police Speed Cops to charge them is remote.
- they are unlikely to be spending much of their spare time off base, further reducing the opportunity to fall foul of local laws.

So not really comparing apples to apples here are we Den?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

Ard, you said "Best disciplined army in the world?, tell that to the occupied people of the rest of the world where the British held sway. "

Which people would they be?
Britain's former colonies remain warm friends.
There are often exchanges between our armies, shared training and use of each other's facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,flamenco ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM

Thank you for shooting down another anti-English thread Terribus and Keith. There are so many armchair provo's here now,complete with their own tame moderator that I can't be bothered to post here any more.
                Flamenco, the true path!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:35 AM

stiil at it, I mean these people will never listen, because they don't want to listen. So it's flogging a dead horse with these folk.

I've been to Northern Ireland, and I found it quite peaceful, can't you people not be postive for once, and try to get on with one another instead of disliking each other that's why Northern Ireland is in such a state, because the only way you can settle you diferences was with the gun and the bomb instead of sitting down and talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:36 AM

if you have nothing good to say don't say anything

now goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

PS.
Final one,

I can't be bothered to argue so don't answer me please

LOYALIST AND REPUBLICAN ARE ALL THE SAME HUMAN BEINGS.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM

The usual crew of one-eyed limeys, remember your Government was twice condemned by the European Court of human rights for inhuman and degrading treatment, your record in this country is one of murder and collusion with your Protestant para-military friends.
I once again recommend you to John McGuffins two books, a free read on the net, The Guinea Pigs and Internment, Teribus and Keith it may be above your heads, but do try and read them, if you are having trouble with the contents, give me a buzz, and Teribus keep taking the tablets.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

Still living in the past though aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:23 PM

wnder how many parking tickets and drunk in public fines the IRA paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:45 PM

How refreshing to see in our midst, such open minded debate taking place!

What generosity of spirit and civilised bonhommie!

Its amazing how the Christmas message touches us all in our separate ways!

God bless each and every one!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:02 PM

Dear oh dear oh dear Den, don't you know the "three Rabbits" won't like this thread ? Nothing new in, our local paper was full of crimes throughout the seventies. Stealing from bomb sites being the most popular. I was robbed myself at a P.Check. One tramp took my lighter, cigarettes and the few pounds I had, oh sorry got a kick in the balls too. What do you expect from a pig only a grunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:46 PM

If I am one of your rabbits divis, I did like the thread.
It has shown that soldiers in Northern Ireland commit proportionally fewer crimes than the civillian population.
I can see why you and Ard did not like it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM

Ah but Keith the civilian population are not paid to keep the peace by the government and strut about with an SA80 in their hands looking like good boys and really some were very naughty.
Officers and gentlemen are not supposed do these things, are they ?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:58 PM

I knew when I saw the first troll post in this thread that it would degenerate into a slanging match and another episode of 'Living in the Past'
Why are you all so predictable?
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:00 PM

So civilians of NI are expected to act like that?


Come on divis, you have been hauled to book again. You really should find yourself a new hobby as you are losing all credibility as you flail ever more desperate.

Yet again you don't get the response you want because some of us deal in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Pistachio
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:36 PM

Would you really rather the British Army hadn't been there at all - members of your family and friends may well have suffered more if the troops hadn't been sent in to HELP, and REMEMBER they were ORDERED there,and given the job to do to the best of their ability. Not all wanted to go,not all of they came back, their families were often terrified at the voice of the newsreaders of the day. Ask my Parents and my 'in-Laws.
My friend died there, but it was in a traffic accident. My colleagues young fiancees died there in 1979. It's sad but it's life - today, as in history people disagree and fight and believe in what THEY believe. I had a most interesting time serving there, as did two of my family, it's a beautiful country with cities and towns and hills and people who don't all do what they 'should' but look at any other cities and towns and hills and people, are they all as squeaky clean as they 'should' be.
Oh where have all the flowers gone.
If you I can't help maybe I have to move on to a place where I can.
Goodnight - and in the words of the late great Dave Allen - "May your God go with you".

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:39 PM

Sorry Guest
I didn't start this thread. No need for a new hobby. "Flail" sounds interesting, do you have a recipe for it ?

No I actally very busy promoting the peace process in Ireland and keeping all the Provo's on board. Would you prefer I promoted going back to the armed struggle ? (can't win with some people)

I image you are one of lifes little people who has nothing to reflect on in life. Me on the other hand has.

In between European travel and promoting Ireland whilst there.

You deal with fact ? Christ and you hide behind a Guest name. Sad person. Laughing my ass off.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:48 PM

divis long may you laugh. You are getting very predictable. Did anyone say you started this thread? No. Again let's stick to fact. It was just another lazy attempt for you to try and post devoid of truth and then your ever predictable saving face follow up . Get used to it - a lot of people here are a lot more informed than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:02 PM

Pistachio, I agree it wasn't easy loosing accepting death. Sadly I grew to accept it, it does that to you after a while. Yes I lost family at the hands of loyalist killers and I lost family to the British forces too.

I cannot and never could accept the British army on my streets no.

I am not prepared to go into my own circumstances on this site as you can understand.

There seems to be a few voices on this site that hate the fact that a few republicans happen to come here. I make no excuse for who I am or what I stand for. In fact I have many friends here who I respect and they know who I am and have no problem with it.

I can and will defend the Provisional IRA and I can and do accept your opinion and the role you played. Sadly some can't debate on these topics and think firing the odd line at me will put me off ! Oh how little they know me.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:08 PM

I was halfway through a posting on this thread this afternoon when the electric cut for a split second & computer started to reboot, & I didnt come back on.

I really don't feel like posting here now I read whats been said since.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

Ah Guest lovely to see you back so soon. So glad I am getting under your skin otherwise you wouldn't be posting so often. I attended a wonderful dinner on Saturday evening in my honour. So many friends there who were released under the Good Friday Agreement. We were looking at the sentences dished out to them and how little they actually served. Well clearly your government accepted they were political prisoners. Hope this also gets stuck up your nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:25 PM

Promoting peace wherever you go are you Divis?
Probably funded by the British taxpayer like just about everything else over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:30 PM

Poor deluded divis, so stuck in the past he thinks every one who knows what and who he is must be a brit.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

Troll "GUEST" alert.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Billygoat Gruff
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:50 PM

Which"GUEST" is it Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Brackagh Moss
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:54 PM

The figures are a good reason why the British Army should leave our country NOW. One conviction is too much criminality from that quarter, IMO.

I should like to see more of these so-called 'Peace Keepers' taken to book for their repeated ventures to the other side of the law in the 22 or so years leading up to the beginning of this latest set of statistics.

I believe Teribus once told us he himself treaded cheerfully in the realms of the errant squaddie.

Give us one of your old stories, Uncle Teribus.
We love 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Sneaky Beaky
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:59 PM

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory.

Boom boom!!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

There it is at last "I can and will defend the provisional IRA". Killers all just like the people he hates.
"Round like a circle in a spiral.."
So far we've had no one happily defending... fill in your own murderous psychopaths from the last 200 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

http://www.portadownphotos.freehomepage.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:21 AM

Divis while I respect your right to hold the views you do, I will NEVER agree that murder, torture, and armed robbery could be described as "Political crimes"
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:07 AM

The British government would wish nothing better than the ongoing investigations into British collusion in the north of Ireland to quietly disappear.
We have had top policemen sent over to investigate various British dirty tricks and who have had all sorts of obstacles put in their way.
Remember John Stalker?, poor John tried his best but was met with what he described as"a wall of silence" this was referring to the RUC`s unwillingness to help, also John Stevens whose offices were burnt down after he found collusion was rife in the death of Pat Finucane the Catholic Solicitor, and of course Judge Cory the Canadian, who found collusion going on, right to the top.

Anyone remember Captain Fred Holroyd, an M6 operative stationed in Portadown and in British Army HQ in Lisburn, after being forced to leave the Army, Holroyd revealed the actions of the "dirty tricks" dept, chiefly their collusion with Protestant paramilitaries in bomb making and their role in the Dublin-Monaghan bombs.

Yes, wouldn`t Blair and co wish Ahern to stop asking him questions on the Army`s role in their collusion with their murder gangs.

There is a lot more to come, just watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

There a lot of people in NI who apparently don't want to be ruled from Westminster. Far too many for it to be practical proposition to carry on as we are doing.

So you need to convince about three hundred and fifty English MP's to relinquish NI. Most of these people represent English people who don't like Ian Paisley. Most English people would like to see an end to this conflict - period.

What I don't see - and I can't see why not - is a concerted high profile cross party campaign by the various repblican parties to solve this by this simple democratic process. I think you would get lots and lots and lots of support from English people who dread with a change of government the oncoming symbiotic Tory/Unionist alliance bringing back the bad times.

When you have achieved separation, you can sort out the United Ireland thing between you. No business of ours.

Gerry Adams in his recollections of the Cheyne House talks admits that the English government of the time wanted to negotiate with him and his Sinn Fein colleagues, who were in captivity at the time. However he admits he was too young, perhaps immature and had too much fire in his belly at the time. They were just very young guys at the time.

Perhaps the troops wouldn't have been there if solutions using the democratic processes that were there had been pursued. I realise that there were unfair things built into the system. However they can't totally frustrate the will of the people, and I really do think people were so pissed off with seeing young soldiers being killed - even now, you would win the day if you got it before an English parliament - if you did the ground work. And there are enough Irish people in England to mount such a campaign.


Do you still see dealing with the English political system as a sort of cop out? Surely risking the situation deteriorating again, and risking landing another generation with this problem is a worse option.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM

Considering the murderers and crooks from both sides were released back into the community under the Good Friday Agreement

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

Pressed too soon.......

......it's rich that their supporters are bleating so much about the said crimes committed by British forces. Where's their amnesty from the IRA, UDA,UFF et al???

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

Returning to the thread,
Divis, you said "paid to keep the peace by the government and strut about with an SA80 in their hands looking like good boys "

But these are just soldiers Divis.
You and Ard have called them Scum of the Earth.
They are predominantly recruited from the most deprived and crime infested parts of Britain. Those very parts that Ard has been on about in his Britain's Yobs thread.
The figures for NI people is for all backgrounds, yet still the soldiers are better.

The soldiers are of the most crime prone age, late teens and early twenties.
The figures for NI people is for all ages, including infants and the elderly, yet still the soldiers are better.

The figures for the soldiers include traffic violations while the NI people's figures do not.
Even yet the soldiers are better.

Intended as another muck slinging smear of the army, this thread has given a ringing endorsement of their discipline and behaviour.
Thanks Den.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

Nitpicking Keith, we want shut of it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM

Keith, sometimes I have to shake my head when I read some of your comments. I started this thread because I thought that it was interesting that the Government would admit to anything and I thought it would of interest to people here. I did not start it to troll as Mr. Mackenzie has stated above. Comparing civilian crimes with those perpatrated by civil servants is ludicrous and an extremely weak way in which to score points. Should we compare the crime figures in England to those provided for N. Ireland. What would that prove? Everyone who has defended the army miscreants in this thread seem to completely ignore the fact that the Ministry of Defense has acknowledged the fact that soldiers robbed, raped and murdered. Does this not shock anyone or is it because the ones being robbed, raped and murdered were just a bunch of Paddys. I think that it is important for the government to come clean. It is time for truth and reconciliation from all corners for without it there is no foundation from which to build the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:45 AM

The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years.... Convicted means they didn't get away with it Paddy my boy

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM

Den,
    Your last post has to be one of the most disengenuous I have ever read on mudcat, worthy of Gerry Adams himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM

Dave do you even realize how insulting it is to call me Paddy and what was the point of your post other than to call me names.

Fairy Princess you know absolutely nothing about me, so your comments are meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM

I was pointing out an obvious fact about your whole post Den... You take far too much to heart mate, and it gets very tiring. In the culture I belong to, "Paddy" is more of a term of endearment than derogatory. The meaning of Paddy is "A Son of Ireland" and I take great offence to you impling I was using it in anything other than what it was intended as. We refer to the Welsh as "taffy" and on more than one occasion I have been called "Limey" without offence or taking the "Mickey" Get a life Den!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:29 AM

No, Fairy Princess, the disengenuous posts come from the defenders of the British Army. While I don't dispute that Den started the thread from a specific perspective, the lot of you folks acting as if that is a load of bollocks and the these fine young British soldiers were just doing a difficult job, flies in the face of all the evidence dug up by third parties such as Amnesty and the various commissions. Forgetting all the animus you all have with each other, the facts are evident. The British Army colluded with the RUC and its heirs. They used tactics that are not acceptable, in fact fly in the face of all protocols. They stood by and watched, sometimes participated, as little kids and old people were terrorized and worse, conveniently not being in the area. Your defense of the indefensible speaks volumes.

Dave, "paddy" is a term that the Irish might use among themselves. But its use, and by whom, determines how one might take it. Please tell me that you did not mean to use it in the way it seems you meant it. Sometimes context is tough to get on the internet. I can assure you that if you meant it like it came off, you would never want to do that with me 3D. I will trust for now that you didn't mean it in its most racist meaning, but it sure came off like that.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

I see we cross posted, Dave. I understand now. It surely came off differently, but we have all had those problems of context on the internet. Apologies for taking it wrong.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM

Clearly some still can't accept if a "peace keeping force" walks the streets over here they should be setting an example.
Another couple of army bases will be closing down shortly, so we should see the situation improve.

Come on Keith, I saw a lack of British army discipline and behaviour at first hand many times on the streets of Ulster and you know it went on.

It was always the same old story when a new regiment came in to do their tour of duty.They got a list of names of locals into their heads and we couldn't have drove to the corner shop without getting the car ripped apart and asked the same silly questions over and over. Clearly it was simply a policy of "hassle the natives".

It wasn't very nice of them, considering they were only a "peace keeping force" I doubt few here would of liked it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:29 PM

Does this not shock anyone or is it because the ones being robbed, raped and murdered were just a bunch of Paddys.

I'm sure British troops on the mainland have robbed, raped and murdered English, Scots and Welsh civilians too. (As has just about every army since time began). Does anyone know if the figures for Northern Ireland are better or worse than similar data for British forces in UK, Germany, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc? And how do the British figures compare with those for US forces at home and abroad? Or French, or Russian, etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM

When your enemy only wears his uniform in secret, or at gravesides while wearing a balaclava, it must be a scary job trying to patrol an area. You are visible as you wear a uniform, and so can be held to account, the same is not true of the opposition.
Such comparisons as have been made previously are odious.

Giok


"Comparisons are odious."
-- John Fortescue de laudibus Legum Angliae (1471)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Ah hello, ever hear of Guerrilla warfare ? 28,000 British soldiers soldiers and 17,000 police (figures for mid seventies) odds were a little one sided, would you not agree ?

What about the French Resistance in 1940 ? Yes got it now, you feel they should have came out in ful kit and kicked hell out of Hilters army.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM

Giok, with respect for our friendship, that is a load. That is easy to say when you have one of the largest, most well equipped armies in the world. Tell that to the Viet Cong, to the Sunni insurgents, indeed to the Colonial Army of the United States. I could go on and on. How about the Free French? I won't get into details because I didn't live in those streets. But to continue to defend the British Army and its activities in the North of Ireland smacks of denial. I don't suggest for a moment that the great majority of these soldiers were just young men trying to do their job in very difficult circumstances. Those that know about me know that I understand that very well. I don't deny that families had to face the horrible reality of losing a loved one in war. But to continue to deny the legitimate aspirations of a people to not live in a bigotted society, gerrymandered worse than any in history against political aspirations, with a set of laws that the creators of the Apartheid policy of South Africa borrowed but not in quite so restrictive a form, to deny that the British Army aided and abetted a terror and torture campaign, and even today tries to cover it up, is just ludicrous. Den will never convince me that he didn't start this with an agenda, but can you blame him? You didn't like the tactics of the IRA, how about the tactics of the groups that spawned their tactics? Do you think they did that just because? They did it because they were at a numerical disadvantage, they had centuries of history to understand that their oppressor wouldn't just go, and they were undergunned. I have heard many speak of the unwinability of the Iraq war, because the war is wrong, based on wrong principles. You are all ready to sack Blair because of it. What is so different between that and the struggle of the Irish to send your troops back across the water and let them be? A political solution is there, and thanks be that the players in Dublin and London have finally quit pandering to the beneficiaries of the gerrymandering and discrimination. But don't sit here and act as though these freedom fighters, with all their warts, were acting unreasonably against what they faced from the collusive efforts of their adversaries.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM

another cross post.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

I was not defending anybody's action, but I was pointing out that it's easier to blame those you can see than those you can't. It is even possible that as a part of that guerilla warfare, that false information may have been laid in order to discredit those soldiers, in the same way as Divis assures us was done to his side.
All I'm saying is that this is a troll thread because it uses statistics, a notoriously unreliable weapon, to try and make a sectarian point.
I am not for or against anybody, and I refuse to take sides.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM

Bullshit Dave your fooling noone. I know exactly how you meant to use that word and don't try turning this around on me. I don't need to get a life as you suggest. I have a good one already.

Giok, so let me get this straight anyone starting a thread in order to represent N. Ireland, nationalists or the IRA in a negative way is a poster but anyone who starts a thread to acknowledge some of the dirty dealings of the British army is a troll. I started this thread to acknowledge that the Government had admitted to British soldiers acting outside the law in a pretty serious way. Robbery, rape, murder. They're pretty serious accusations. I see this as a start. There is plenty more to come I'm sure. The people in Derry have been waiting for over 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM

When I was in Belfast (1971-82) the behaviour of the British Army was not a pretty sight and was sometimes shameful. But what Ard and Co can't grasp is that this is not a "Brit" thing. We've surely seen enough evidence by now to know that any army, anywhere, is capable of losing its moral compass - in fact there's an institutional predisposition for this to happen in "active service" scenarios.

If there is one lesson to be learnt from the NI troubles it is that soldiers are not the right people to police civilian populations. It is interesting to note (as I expect Big Mick has noted) that the behaviour of the Brits in Iraq has been a good bit more intelligent and constructive, on the whole, than that of their Us counterparts. So perhaps something was indeed learnt in Belfast and south Armagh.

Wherever the balance lies between right ane wrong in NI, what completely pisses me off about Mudcat is the endless bitterness, as exemplified by this thoughtful little gem from Divis Sweeney: "So glad I am getting under your skin...." You'd get a better level of debate from schoolkids.

Oh, and whatFrench Resistance, Divis? At times it took fewer than 3,000 German troops to keep Occupied France under the Nazi cosh, and to keep exporting its Jews to the camps. Any resistance was largely a figment of Allied propaganda. The fact is that most of Europe, including a great many people in the UK,were only too happy to see the Jews get their come-uppance. The USA was not the only nation to turn away desperate Jewish refugees.

But I mustn't distract those of you who believe the axis of evil begins and ends in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

Let's see, we've established that the average Brit Squaddie in Northern Ireland actually behaves better than the average local.

We've had Ard give us his usual "Scum of the Earth" rant.

We've had indignation from Divis and Den

We've had typical "Plastic Paddy" (as per Eric Bogle) pontification from Big Mick.

OK, Ard/Divis/Den/Big Mick tell all the people on this thread and in this forum all about Jean McConville.

By the bye, British forces in Northern Ireland were never deployed there as a "peacekeeping force", they were deployed to assist the civil power, and their first job was to disarm and disband the Ulster 'B' Specials. As such it should come as no great surprise to anybody, Big Mick, that they colluded with the RUC, which stands for Royal Ulster Constabulary, i.e. the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM

I believe that what happened to Jean McConville was very wrong. Why don't you start a thread about her so that other people will be informed. So they disbanded the B Specials which then became the Ulster Defence Regiment and if you'll pardon the expression same shit different pile.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:00 PM

Den,
You said,"so....anyone starting a thread in order to represent N. Ireland, nationalists or the IRA in a negative way is a poster"

Den, no one ever does start threads like that.
These arguments are all on threads started by Republicans.
Like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

And Den,
You recognise a disingenuous post by its content, not by knowledge of its author.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:23 PM

It's very nice to know Den that you, "believe that what happened to Jean McConville was very wrong."

But that is not what you/Ard/Divis/Big Mick were asked to do was it?

Tell us all about Jean McConville, explain to us why there is such a clamour for inquiries into the killing of 12 people in Derry in January 1972 (Bloody Sunday), the bombings of Dublin and Monaghan by the UVF in 1974 and the murder of Pat Finucane, yet there is no such clamour on the part of Sinn Fein and Mitchel McLaughlin for any inquiry or prosecution for the murder of Jean McConville.

Maybe Divis could tell us as she was once a neighbour of his. Maybe on of the guests at the dinner given in his honour actually took part, and could tell us far more.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM

Well let me see Keith didn't you start a thread about the Northern Bank raid a while back. What was that all about? How's that coming by the way? Got any more suspects or are you still blaming the provos. Number 2 I'm not currently nor ever have been a republican. I know what disingenous means and in this case it implied that I was being insincere.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:41 PM

Is that the best and only example Den?
That thread asked the QUESTION if PIRA was involved in that crime.
The thread title had a ? at the end.
It was the major news item of the day and even the Irish police, government and security forces were blaming PIRA.
And how long ago was that?
And how many of these debates have we had since?

Teribus, I have asked about Jean Mconville before and gave her story here.thread.cfm?threadid=88751#1668184

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM

There were actually 14 people killed in Derry on Bloody Sunday Teribus John Johnston died of his wounds two days later but why split hairs eh they were just a bunch of Paddys. I'm not sure what you want me to do about Jean McConville. I don't think there is anything I can do that will make any difference to her family. As for the involvement of Mitchel McLaughlan in her disappearance maybe you know something I don't. If the people who murdered Jean McConville are found then the law should be applied and if you can't tell the difference between her murder and Government sanctioned murder then I think you are being deliberately obtuse. If you will reread one of my posts above I said that, "It is time for truth and reconciliation from all corners".

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

So to preface your post Keith as long as there is a question mark at the end of a title then its not meant to be inflamatory. I'm just trying to get these rules all straight in my head. You see I didn't think this thread needed a question mark as the information was stated as fact from the Ministry of Defence.

Sorry Teribus 13 killed on Bloody sunday and John Johmston died 2 days later. I know what a stickler you are for detail.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

Actually folks that's it for me for now. I'm off out for B&B surprise for the weekend with my wife. Far away from the toils and strife of life and the Mudcat. Peace, Den.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

Firstly Peter, I will address Guest posts in the manner they arrive, if they extract the urine, so will I. Problem with that ?

Teribus, Yes I will be glad to discuss the informer Jean McConville with you if you address the list of children killed by plastic bullets fired by British soldiers, is that fair enough ???????? No questions answered to anyone about this until he addresses this subject if it's names and figures he wishes to throw about.

Keith, nothing to address with you as nothing you said is new here.

I repeat I proudly honour the Volunteers of the Provisional Irish Republican Army and will do so until death.

I lost family and friends to the SLR's and car bombs of FARC/British military forces of occupation in my country, do you really expect me to say these British soldiers did a sterling job ?

Clearly some of you have a problem with my views and lack the ability to understand anyone elses viewpoint.

That is being very narrow minded. Would you not agree ?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM

Just came in to see the usual suspects clamping at the bit, what a load of rubbish they keep dishing out, listen lads, tell John Stalker,John Stevens and Judge Cory they are all wrong.
The Brits in denial, nothing strange there.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:49 PM

So the NI people acted worse and commited more crimes than the 'scum of the earth'army.

At least that fact is indisputable thanks to this thread. No wonder they needed policing.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:58 PM

these people can't let everone else enjoy Christmas

peace and goodwill to all men/women.

Love and God bless

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:18 PM

"these people can't let everone else enjoy Christmas" That's right Tom, it was just about this time 34 years ago, that having tortured 5ft tall mother of 10 Jean McConville (Chopped her fingers off during interrogation) that the PIRA shot her.

There was a specific reason I asked Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick to tell everybody on this forum about Jean McConville.

I also hope that all who have read this thread have noted that they all fought shy of telling us.

There is a reason for that isn't there boys, so just for the sake of clarity I'll ask Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick again - tell us about Jean McConville? - They won't because to do so would put them in the position of disobeying orders.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Brackagh Moss
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:56 AM

Teribus... One thing you keep blocking in that Empirical brain of yours: Your presence in our country has brought the best and the worst out in our, under normal circumstances, very hospitable and friendly people.
We speak the language of resistance

You speak the language of the oppressor.

By invading countries, you bring the backlash down upon yourselves. Remember that the July 7th bombings in London were carried out by a bunch of kids who were well under your radar.
Well, The Provisional IRA slapped manners on you good and proper, Teribus, and kicked your asses to the negotiating table.
Fait a complit, old mukker.

Let's hope you you are all able to persuade the Syrians and the Iranians (the Axis of Evil, remember) to sort Iraq out for you, because all the crying 'foul' that you keep on doing, every time you get kicked in the bollocks (like July 7th) is directly proportional
to the amount of grief you have already brought to the offended party.

Now its time to get the send the rest of your ilk, back out Belfast Lough; the way they came in.
Law-keepers, Peace-keepers, Army of Occupation... whatever are not to be compared with the rest of the population. Apples with Oranges, Teribus. Wrong criteria (why can't you ever stick to the point?)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:12 AM

If he speaks the language of the oppressor, you seem to have mastered the dialect of the shit stirer.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:27 AM

Please note - yet another PIRA supporter who has avoided the subject of Jean McConville.

Also note that in one post Divis referred to her as "the informer" Jean McConville - this being the latest PIRA lie regarding this poor woman. Here is what the Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan said with regard to this PIRA claim in July of this year:

Mrs O'Loan said it was not her normal role to confirm or deny the identity of people working as agents for the security services. "However, this situation is unique. Jean McConville left an orphaned family, the youngest of whom were six-year-old boys. The family have suffered extensively over the years, as we all know, and that suffering has only been made worse by allegations that their mother was an informant. As part of our investigation we have looked very extensively at all the intelligence available at the time. There is no evidence that Mrs McConville gave information to the police, the military or the security services".

Also a little insight into what Divis and his neighbours are like, or at least what they were like around Christmas 1972. On the 12th of December Jean McConville was taking a bath when four female and eight male members of the PIRA dragged this woman screaming from her house in full view of her children. They never saw her alive again. Christmas, remember, all this woman's neighbours, maybe even Divis himself among them, turned their backs on these orphaned children. Without help and support Helen, the eldest, a girl of fourteen attempted to look after her brothers and sisters and keep the family together for four months. Finally social services came in and the family was split up amongst foster homes. Merry Christmas indeed - these are the people that Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick are so proud of.

Must be getting quite crowded down in that little 20ft Container.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:15 AM

There is a reason for that isn't there boys, so just for the sake of clarity I'll ask Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick again - tell us about Jean McConville? - They won't because to do so would put them in the position of disobeying orders.

Although I agree with a lot of what you say - I think including a plastic paddy who has never set foot in Ireland attributes some misplaced kudos where it doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM

Rubber/Plastic bullet victims Teribus, anything to tell me ?

I clearly remember cutting short my holiday in Achill Island and coming home on a hot August afternoon in 1976 to see a child laid out in her coffin. 12-year-old Majella O'Hare was a schoolgirl who was shot in the back by a soldier.

Her mum Mary O'Hare stood up when I walked in and asked me, "why would they kill my child" ? Her daughter was killed as she walked past an Army patrol.

Majella, from Whitecross, was on her way with other children to confession at a nearby church when she was hit in the back by a bullet fired by a paratrooper.


Her daddy Jimmy, who was working nearby, ran up the road and found Majella lying on the ground, blood pouring from her left side.
He cradled her in his arms until a local nurse arrived.
Majella lifted her hand up to her father's chest and said faintly, 'Daddy, Daddy'. Within seconds she was dead.

I spoke with Jimmy O'Hare a few days before he died 16 years later and all he talked about was Majella. The man never lived a days peace since the bastard shot her.

A 24-year-old paratrooper was charged with manslaughter.

He was acquitted when the trial judge accepted his claim to have shouted a warning before firing at a gunman he spotted in a hedge.

The Army's version of events had been widely disputed and the court verdict provoked controversy.

Soldiers at first claimed Majella was killed in crossfire, but local people insisted only one shot was fired, that no warning was issued and no other witnesses saw a gunman.

At the trial, Mary came face-to-face with the man she believes shot her daughter.

She shouted over to him 'Are you proud of what you did? Are you proud of killing Majella?'. He just shrugged his shoulders, smirked and said nothing."

In the 30 years the British authorities have never apologised for the death of the 12-year-old. The Army has never spoken directly to the family.

Teribus Mary is 83 now, would you like to talk to her ? I could pm you her phone number.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

That is a tragic story Sweeney.
Do you believe it was a random killing of a child by a soldier?
Why would he do that?
Perhaps it was true that it was a terrible mistake.
Sweeney, when I brought up Jean McConville, (Link in my previous post) your answer then was to bring up another killing. (scroll down from my link)
You said the army shot an innocent young man and later apologized for it.
Most of what you said then was a lie.
He had tried to kill the soldiers with a bomb. Forensic tests found explosive reidues on him. He had served a sentence for posession of explosives. He is listed on Republican websites as having died fighting for Ireland.

Will you share your local knowledge of Jean McConville with us now?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

Truly a tragic story Divis, but as you point out, the soldier was charged, I note the charge was manslaughter, which indicates that those prosecuting the case could not prove any intent on the part of the accused, he was tried and found not guilty. That is called due process of law.

I notice that you didn't mention Jean McConville in your post Divis.

As you don't seem to want to mention her, tell us all about Kathleen Feeney.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM

That link again

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM

You would need to ask your army Keith about why they killed her a a lot of other children. Why not send them an email ?

Why ask me what I think, because in your view I am a lair.

Ah Forensic Keith, now isn't that a great subject to look at presently over here. It was also forensic that saw several Irish men and women put in English jails for life sentences before the government accepted they were wrong to do so. So don't come the forensic line with me Keith.

Regarding McConville, did you not read my post to Teribus ? within it is the reply to your question.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

Soldier
(Harvey Andrews)
In a station in the city a British soldier stood
Talking to the people there if the people would
Some just stared in hatred, and others turned in pain
And the lonely British soldier wished he was back home again

Come join the British Army! said the posters in his town
See the world and have your fun come serve before the Crown
The jobs were hard to come by and he could not face the dole
So he took his country's shilling and enlisted on the roll

For there was no fear of fighting, the Empire long was lost
Just ten years in the army getting paid for being bossed
Then leave a man experienced a man who's made the grade
A medal and a pension some mem'ries and a trade

Then came the call for Ireland as the call had come before
Another bloody chapter in an endless civil war
The priests they stood on both sides the priests they stood behind
Another fight in Jesus's name the blind against the blind

The soldier stood between them between the whistling stones
And then the broken bottles that led to broken bonmes
The petrol bombs that burnt his hands the nails that pierced his skin
And wished that he had stayed at home surrounded by his kin

The station filled with people the soldier soon was bored
But better in the station than where the people warred
The room filled up with mothers with daughters and with sons
Who stared with itchy fingers at the soldier and his gun

A yell of fear a screech of brakes the shattering of glass
The window of the station broke to let the package pass
A scream came from the mothers as they ran towards the door
Dragging their children crying from the bomb upon the floor

The soldier stood and could not move his gun he could not use
He knew the bomb had seconds and not minutes on the fuse
He could not run and pick it up and throw it in the street
There were far too many people there too many running feet

Take cover! yelled the soldier, Take cover for your lives
And the Irishmen threw down their young and stood before their wives
They turned towards the soldier their eyes alive with fear
For God's sake save our children or they'll end their short lives here

The soldier moved towards the bomb his stomach like a stone
Why was this his battle God why was he alone
He lay down on the package and he murmured one farewell
To those at home in England to those he loved so well

He saw the sights of summer felt the wind upon his brow
The young girls in the city parks how precious were they now
The soaring of the swallow the beauty of the swan
The music of the turning world so soon would it be gone

A muffled soft explosion and the room began to quake
The soldier blown across the floor his blood a crimson lake
There was no time to cry or shout there was no time to moan
And they turned their children's faces from the blood and from the bones

The crowd outside soon gathered and the ambulances came
To carry off the body of a pawn lost in the game
And the crowd they clapped and cheered and they sang their rebel song
One soldier less to interfere where he did not belong

And will the children growing up learn at their mothers' knees
The story of the soldier who bought their liberty
Who used his youthful body as a means towards an end
Who gave his life to those who called him murderer not friend



Susanne´s Folksong-Notizen
[1972:] If you can con an ordinary man into protecting your interests, he gets done when the crisis comes, not you. Many soldiers are not professional killers, they're kids who couldn't get a job, and as unemployment has soared, recruiting for the army has increased by over 60% in three years. The average soldier is unimportant in the final analysis, it's the ones who shelter behind him that count [...] and they always seem to survive! (Notes Harvey Andrews, 'Writer of Songs')

[1973:] Written from newspaper clippings. (Forces Folk 11/73, p 10)

[1975:] Hugh [Fraser] has a friend, an officer in the Brigade of Guards, just back from a tour of duty in Northern Ireland. While they were there forty of his men bought themselves out of the Army, as their wives would not have them being shot at in Ireland. Meanwhile, partly because of the boom, but partly because of Ireland, the recruiting figure for April this year was half the number for April 1972. (Cecil King, Diary 1970-1974, July 3rd, 1973, p 297)

[1979:] His next major song, however, inadvertently created a controversy which, for a while, clearly damaged Andrews' standing and viability. 'Soldier', in spite of an unambiguous sleevenote, was widely interpreted as a pro-establishment glorification of military heroism and, therefore, by left-wing logical extension, of authoritarian violence; whereas in fact it was a simple (if lyrically somewhat overwritten) story of a young man caught in an impossible situation. The song was neither for the British authorities nor against the Irish rebels; it was about the senselessness of violence, applied on a personal level. [...] Harvey Andrews' Belfast song ('Soldier') was not a lasting success (though it remains popular, for obvious reasons, with army audiences in Ulster and Germany). (Woods, Revival 115f)

[1990:] In Northern Ireland, this song written in 1972 by a professional songwriter, Harvey Andrews, has become very widely known among soldiers, and at the same time divorced in classic folk-song style from its author. (Palmer, Lovely War 18)

In 1971 in Belfast a soldier called Sergeant Willis cleared a room of civilians because of a bomb. As he went to close the door afterwards, the charge exploded, and he was killed. [...] Harvey Andrews, was so struck by the incident that he wrote the song to make the point that soldiers, too, are human. (The incident of the soldier's embracing the bomb was poetic licence.) Broadcasts of Andrews' record were banned for some time by the BBC lest feelings be exacerbated in the nationalist community of Northern Ireland. The Ministry of Defence advised (and still advises) soldiers not to sing the song in pubs where it might cause trouble. Some have interpreted this as a ban. Nevertheless, they sing it 'all the time', according to one source, on military transport and in messes and canteens. It has been said that some units require newcomers to learn to sing or recite the song before they become fully accepted. Andrews' authorship is not widely known, and many different stories about the song's origin circulate. [...]

The text has appeared in the 'Soldier', the 'Methodist' magazine, and the 'Manchester Evening News' (where in 1988 it won a poetry competition for a youth who sent it in over his own name). (Palmer, Lovely War 199)

[1997:] Someone told me my song was banned in the army, so I thought the ones to know would be the Ministry of Defence, and asked them. [...] They even had it in their files that the song was 'written by Harvey Andrews, who'd been in 2nd Para'. I never was in the army in my life! (Harvey Andrews, pr. comm.)

See also http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=28801

So much for being the opperssers.
I mean they are only doing a job.
however you just convince some people

I just hope peace in Northern Ireland and the two sides get together and try and work something out for both sides.

or listen to 1999 or there were roses by Tommy Sands.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:56 AM

Unless those Republican websites are wrong, you did lie then Sweeney.
And the army did not apologize. You did lie about that.
We are in a new era now. The war is over.
You do not need to lie anymore.
You will feel better for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

Sorry Keith, a lot of members through pm's have pointed out the you couldn't lie straight in bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

Not wishing to invoke norms of civilized behaviour Divis, but I do believe I asked my question first.

Not only did you not provide us with an answer, you sidestep the issue with a brief reference to the PIRA's latest lie and ask a question of your own - which I now apparently MUST answer before you respond to my original question. You don't get off the hook so lightly - tell us about Jean McConville.

He won't of course - I will make a prediction to everyone on this forum - No PIRA apologist will ever tell you anything about Jean McConville, no PIRA apologist will ever tell you anything about Kathleen Feeney.

One question for you Divis do you, or any of your PIRA buddies chat to Kathleen's parents, you might well have done up until 2005, when the truth about Kathleen's death eventually came out.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM

But can you give ONE EXAMPLE of me lying in my years of posting to this site?
No.
I have several more examples of yours if any of your pm palls would like them.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

Kathleen's family did know that IRA killed her.
They were prevented from speaking out.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:55 AM

So many well informed experts on this site it amazes me.

So let's talk about the British army murdering children and innocent civilians in the North of Ireland. Anything to say ?

No of course you don't, because you agreed with their actions, didn't you ?

Sorry I see no point in discussing operational matters or alleged operational matters with those who show no respect to the Provisional IRA.

Please don't look on this as an opt-out. Will either of you accept the actions of your murdering army ?

I repeat I honour and respect all men of the Oglagh na hÉireann.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:04 AM

You asked us to talk about poor Majella and we did.
It really is your turn Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:23 AM

So many well informed experts on this site it amazes me.

It also annoys the hell out of you divis. Isn't it time for a few posts from tic, tac and toe?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

The PIRA has already said sorry for shooting Kathleen Feeney in Derry.

Kathleen died during an operational engagement with the British army.

An internal investigation confirmed a shot from a volunteer killed her.

The leadership has apologised unreservedly to the Feeney family for the death of Kathleen. Something the British failed to do to many families of those they murdered.

The leadership of the PIRA made a statement in 2003 in which they said that it apologises for the grief caused to the families of Jean McConville.

I really can't recall reading any apologises from the British army for all of those they murdered. At least here you can read above the PIRA did face up to their actions.

I imagine that's the difference between us. You two are fine examples of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

"So let's talk about the British army murdering children and innocent civilians in the North of Ireland. Anything to say?"

How many were murdered and maimed by the PIRA scum who are out walking the streets now under the Good Friday Agreement?

You talk about "operational matters" and "respect" like you're still involved in armed conflict. Paramilitaries by todays' definition in Northern Ireland = thugs, extortionists, drug dealers, pimps and anything else you'd like to add that goes under the definition of gangland activities. They are reluctant, I suppose, to give up these lucrative sources of income now that there's a chance of stability and would find it hard to live on income support. They're probably still collecting handouts from the system that they and you so clearly despise. Put your own house in order before you go blaming everyone else (particularly the soldiers) for the evils that befell and continue to affect Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:43 AM

No Guest it does not annoy me at all, neither do you. You could be right, little people could arrive as guests and support their viewpoints. People such as yourself hiding under "guest" haha.

You will always see the name DIVIS SWEENEY when it comes to honouring the Provisionals, be sure of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:52 AM

Ah Guest back so soon ! thank you. Are you not aware all units of the PIRA stood down in July 2005 ? Oh dear you really should check these things first before you post. No I am not involved in any ongoing armed struggle, I referred to actions (back then) in past tense.

No I don't live on any income besides a private pension which I paid into for 26 years, sorry no handouts come my way. I enjoy my life and yes I am abroad yet again ! You seem to be getting a little angry ? Please don't allow me to ruin your day.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:56 AM

100th post to this thread. Bye now, much better things to get at today in this heat !

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 12:53 PM

So many well informed experts on this site it amazes me.

Absolutely amazes the hell out of me. People who don't live in Britain telling us how bad it is. People who would rather believe what newspapers tell them than the truth. People who like to say the war has been won and then get some sort of kick trying to goad the 'losers' into some sort of action. What is this world coming to.

Tsk, tsk.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Oglagh na hEireann
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 01:20 PM

DIVIS SWEENEY

You are doing the cause no good by making an arse of yourself and us on a forum such as this. While you're away sunning yourself and delivering this shite, we are finding ourselves deeply embarrassed by the issues that are being raised here.

This sort of thing just stirrs up trouble, especially while Gerry and Martin are trying to soften old Paisley up - you're as bad as that Stone fella - at least he was their embarrassment.

Got to go - me and a few of the boys have to go down to the Markets to beat the bejaysus out of an errant son of Erin who said something we didn't like.

THe men of Oglagh na hEireann (punishment squad)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Alison M
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:02 PM

Guest Oglagh na hEireann, if you were a true republican then you would help defend Divis, as Divis always defends the republicans from Ireland. I think you should read back through his posts again before making a judgment about him.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:19 PM

Another one who doesn't live there - c'mon tic, tac and lest we n'er forget toe.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Black Beauty
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:37 PM

I think what Divis Sweeny has given an excellent account of Northern Irelands troubled past and some are just picking on him.

Northern Ireland isn't the troubled Province it once was and the killings and bombings seems to be over. Let us welcome that.

It's a country with a brigh future. This country has a European worker programme which allows foreign workers to enter it country legally to meet the needs of their new economy.

We must welcome a new begining and allow the people to stand up and speak for themselves without old voices from the past.

They will find the future they want themselves and resolve their own differences if left alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:18 PM

I am a newcomer to this Site, I will not try to deceive anyone a friend told me to look in and pbserve the thoughts and opinions of lots of people who have never been to Ireland.
The role of the British Army is the chief topic of your squabble, one guy says, he could be British, not sure, he says he seen some terrible things done by the Army in Belfast, please tell us what kind of deeds, that would explain a lot, otherwise those of us who have never seen our Army abroad would be grateful if he explains. thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 03:33 PM

no wonder why there problems in Northern Ireland when these people can't take their blinkers off and stop having such tunnel vision.

its about time you lot forgot about the past

because what happened in the past happened in the past and in the past it must remain.

stop holding gruges for God sake and live in the world today.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 05:16 PM

They will find the future they want themselves and resolve their own differences if left alone.

I know you are quite new to the site, Black Beauty, so I had better explain. There is nothing we would all like better that to leave NI alone - But we can't. Look back and you will find that the vast majority of threads about Northern Ireland and the Bastard Brits are actualy started by citizens of that province.

Now there is no real enemy to fight against - Almost everyone admits that the fight has been won by the Republicans - They feel the need to fight against past injustices. A very worthy windmill to tilt at but hardly wanting to be 'left alone'. Anyone who suggests tha they leave the past where it is is accused of wanting a cover up so I expect you will become a target yourself in the not too distant future. Sorry:-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Oglagh na hEireann
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 05:21 PM

Alison M

I've re read Divis' posts and reported back to the boys. After detailed discussion lasting ten seconds we've reached a unanamous decision:-

    He's an arse........... and he talks shite!

Our decision is final.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:26 PM

Goik your now Oglagh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Alison M
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:18 PM

Guest Oglagh na hEireann, fair play if you want to live in the past, as you are not who you say you are in this case. No one from the organisation "Oglagh na hEireann" would be against Divis for anything he says. So I am guessing you are pretending to be a republican supporter who really is someone that supports loyalists/unionists. There I have said my piece on this thread so good bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:07 PM

Youre right Alison....likely its someone from that infantile 'Loyalist' site still lurking.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 09:32 PM

I predicted that no PIRA apologist would ever talk about Jean McConville or Kathleen Feeney. But here's the nearest that you are going to get:

Divis Sweeney - 16 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

"The PIRA has already said sorry for shooting Kathleen Feeney in Derry.

Kathleen died during an operational engagement with the British army.

An internal investigation confirmed a shot from a volunteer killed her."

Complete and utter bollocks. Now do you remember that heart rending story that Divis told about Majella O'Hare. Can you recollect the detail he went into to describe the circumstances of her death? Now what about Kathleen Feeney, naw, you won't get any PIRA aologiser explain the why and wherefore about her death. Mainly because if you took a look at both you will find that Majella O'Hare died as the result of a tragic accident, whereas Kathleen Feeney died because one of Divis Sweeneys heroes deliberately targeted and shot her and placed the blame on the British Army. Unfortunately for Divis and his dinner guests the man who did shoot Kathleen Feeney had a conscience and owned up to what he had done in 2005, for three decades Divis and his comrades in arms made capitol on this heinous crime that had been committed by the British Army, of course they all knew it as the lie that it was - The Provisional IRA deliberately shot an innocent fourteen year old girl just to make the Brits look bad - OK Divis how many others were there - Ball is in your court you prove it.

Oh and while you are about it tell us all about Jean McConville.

There are times Divis Sweeney when just saying that you are sorry just doesn't quite hack it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:19 AM

It's "Óglaigh na hÉireann" you imbecile.

2 kneekappings and an ankle job for you me bhoyo

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:21 AM

Anyway: Soldiers convicted of crimes in the North?

Bloody despicable.

TROOPS OUT NOW!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:00 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_McConville

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:08 AM

Teribus, one has to note how quickly you pass over on the murders committed by the British army, as if the were acceptable.

I have discussed the case of McConville with a lot of friends (you not being one of them) many times, but not on this site.I see no purpose in discussing it with you. All you seem to be capable of is defending the murderous actions of an army who have been publicly exposed in the European Courts of Human justice for "torture and ill-treatment" in fact if I am correct another member here exposed you some time back as boasting that you did a bit of this yourself.

No volunteer went out to shot a child to blame it on the British army EVER. Can you support your claim ? No didn't think so.

Yes I have repeated the apology from the PIRA Army Council several times on this site. Can you repeat the apology from the British army ? No of course you can't because they are much like yourself, because in their view they did no wrong so no apology needed.

What's the chances of you and the other blind mice allowing this thread to get back on course and face the fact your murdering soldiers still think crime pays in the North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Oglaigh na hEireann
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

GUEST 03:19AM

"It's "Oglaigh na hEireann" you imbecile."

It's "kneecapping" to you and the bhoys.

Is an ankle job a bit lower than a b**w job?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:30 AM

I say, another one of John's guest posts. Good show old boy.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:51 AM

Divis, the European Court did rule that use of white noise and light was torture, so it was quite rightly stopped.
Before that most countries would have regarded it as acceptable for interrogating war prisoners (which PIRA wanted to be).
Remember, people were not being tortured for their political views.
At the height of the troubles, declaring any view was perfectly legal.
The issue was detonating car bombs in town centres and shootings on the street.
A failed interrogation meant more violent death.

Jean McConville was drageed away from her terrified children, tortured, mutilated, and then killed by YOUR local PIRA unit.
You have dropped heavy hints that you were a member.
You are in NO position to lecture anyone on the treatment of prisoners.
You would not even tell her poor family where you dumped her body.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:54 AM

And Jean's dreadful crime?

She offered words of comfort to a dying soldier.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:09 AM

Point 1 Divis I do not believe I have ever passed over murders committed by anyone.

Point 2 Divis you have been asked to tell this forum about Jean McConville - I have got no desire to discuss the matter with you - what I do want is that Jean McConville's story be told by someone who says he supports the murdering scum that dragged that poor, completely innocent, woman screaming from her house in front of her children, to torture and murder her within 24 hours of her having been beaten senseless by members of the same organisation.

Point 3 Divis you say with what appears to be utter conviction that - "No volunteer went out to shot a child to blame it on the British army EVER" - well here's what Mr P. O'Neill said about it:

Text of Irish Republican Army (IRA) Statement on the Shooting of Kathleen Feeney on 14 November 1973, Quarry Street, Derry, (23 June 2005)

"On 14th November 1973, 14-yearold Kathleen Feeney was shot dead in Quarry Street, Derry.

The IRA in Derry, in a statement, denied that any of its volunteers were responsible for the death of Kathleen Feeney. In a further statement, the IRA in Derry claimed to have carried out an operation against the British Army in retaliation for the death of Kathleen Feeney.

The leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann has been asked by the Feeney family to examine the circumstances surrounding the death of their sister and to publicly acknowledge that she was killed by the IRA.

The IRA leadership agreed to do so. We found, as the Feeney family have always believed, that Kathleen was hit by one of a number of shots fired by an IRA Active Service Unit that had fired upon a British army foot-patrol in the Lecky Road area.

The IRA accepts responsibility for the death of Kathleen Feeney. Our failure to publicly accept responsibility for her death until now has only added to the hurt and pain of the Feeney family.

The leadership of Oglaigh na hEireann wish to apologise unreservedly to the Feeney family for the death of Kathleen and for all the grief that our actions have caused to them."

P O'Neill,
Irish Republican Publicity Bureau, Dublin

The statement from the IRA was released through the 'Derry Journal' on 24 June 2005.

Now Divis can you explain to us all why the discrepancy in the dates - 14th November 1973 and 24th June 2005 - what took them so long Divis?

Can you also explain this rather twisted piece of logic that appears in this PIRA Apology that you seem to think is so noble:

"In a further statement, the IRA in Derry claimed to have carried out an operation against the British Army in retaliation for the death of Kathleen Feeney."

Now Divis explain to us all why and how an operation against the British Army was carried out in RETALIATION for a murder committed by the PIRA. The whole purpose of this statement is to apologise for that murder. The British soldiers on patrol could not possibly have killed Kathleen because they did not fire a single round. That added to the fact that in 1973 the British Army were using L1A1 SLR firing a 7.62mm round, the PIRA normally used US weapons, "their little Armalite's" firing a 5.56mm round, so it must have been fairly easy to work out who had done what at the autopsy.

Two years after her death an 18 year old was charged with her murder - note murder, which means that in this particular case the prosecution service believed that they had enough evidence to prove that Kathleen's killing was deliberate, not accidental. The youth was found Not Guilty as it could not be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he fired the shot that killed Kathleen. What was interesting was that the Judge was firmly of the opinion that the verdict was correct and that strong indications existed that Kathleen had been killed by another more experienced gunman - the killing was deliberate not accidental.

Point 4 Divis in 1973 who was the Officer Commanding the PIRA in Derry? From the fact file on Martin McGuinness we get - 1971-73 Officer - Commanding Derry Brigade PIRA. As the commanding officer of the IRA's Derry Brigade in the early 70's he personally fought countless gun battles with British soldiers and organised the destruction of the commercial centre of his native city. Of the city's 150 shops only 20 were left trading. One third of the 320 killed in Londonderry attributed to the troubles died in street clashes and gun battles during this period (54 of them members of HM Security Forces). I suppose that Kathleen Feeney was among the 266 non-HM Security Forces killed. Now what exactly had they done Divis? While the clamour is loud for enquiries into cases involving the Security Forces, most notable being the Bloody Sunday Inquiry concerning the deaths of 14 people. Where is the clamour for the Inquiry into the deaths of the 87 people that Martin McGuinness as Officer Commanding in Derry ordered, or sanctioned, to be executed?

As for thread drift Divis - not in the least - read the title - You and the rest of the murdering scum you appear to be so proud off always contended that they were "soldiers" didn't they? Still you, Ard, Den and the rest of your fellow travellers only ever look at one side.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Alison M
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM

Oglaigh na hEireann, what ever you want to call yourself on here. I have had death threats before thrown at me. Threating to shoot me is your answer is it? You are no republican, your a loyalist that is trying to cause trouble in this forum. If you are a member of FAIR then go back there. Divis does not have to answer any of you, but he does to tell the truth. Debating with him is one thing, but ganging up on him is another thing, which is unfair!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:21 AM

Did you know McConvile ? Do you know at first hand anything about this case ? maybe your just repeating what you read and then voice your side of it, just as you did in regard to the Northern Bank robbery, which didn't seem to go too well for you.

Why are you so fixed on her case ? There are many cases of children being murdered by the British army we could talk about. And there is also collusion isn't there ?

Her case is something I will not be going into with any of you, there is simply no point. So let's talk about this thread Den started.

British soldiers charged with rape, GBH, domestic violence, robbery,glassing some kid at a dancehall and murder. Local papers often cover it. Hard to believe these guys are actually paid to keep law and order !

What's wrong are you saying these guys (the peace keeping force)wouldn't do such things ?

Thread drifts don't work with me sorry. Why not start another thread about McConville if your so interested in the case ? did you not try this before on other subjects in the past when you didn't get the answers you required on one of your many thread drifts ?

Right let's talk about this thread of Den's.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:31 AM

Sorry Teribus, you would need to address your questions to Derrys fourth Northern command. I know nothing about them. I think you may find it was a M1 which was used .30 if that's any help when you address them.

Thanks Alison, it's not a loyalist, it's a member from here I was told last night. Hope all is well with you.

Right Teribus, what about this thread Den started, are you going to get back on track ? Oh sorry your another thread drift member, suits you to take the bad look of this "peace keeping force."

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:40 AM

Oh, sorry, Divis, forgot to mention the following.

With regard to PIRA Officers Commanding - as an old-boy of the organisation maybe Divis could tell us who was Officer Commanding in Belfast the night that Jean McConville was beaten? Who was Officer Commanding in Belfast the following night when she was taken to be tortured, executed and mutilated? The Officer Commanding PIRA in Belfast at the time, the man who would have had to have given the OK for the operation was a certain Gerry Adams.

Now Gerry, god bless 'im, actually told Jean's eldest daughter Helen that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with her mothers abduction and killing because he was in jail at the time of her slaughter - NOT TRUE - fancy that Gerry Adams telling lies, oh dear - Fact of the matter was that Gerry Adams Officer Commanding was not interned until July, 1973, seven months after the murder of Jean McConville.

That good people is why the PIRA will continue to lie and deny with regard to the circumstances of Jean McConville's dissappearance and death. Because, you see, nobody was ever charged so the crime is still on the books. The murder of Jean McConville is not swept under the carpet by any Good Friday Agreement, anyone involved in her death can still do time for her murder - including the man that ordered it.

This article from an SDLP Spokesman also indicates why the PIRA will never talk about Jean McConville:

MAGINNESS: KILLING OF JEAN MCCONVILLE A WAR CRIME

SDLP Justice Spokesperson Alban Maginness said republicans cannot continue to evade the truth of what happened to Jean McConville.

Mr Maginness said: "It is just not enough to say the killing of Jean McConville was wrong or should not have happened. Nor can Mitchell McLaughlin excuse her death because it happened in the context of conflict.

"She was killed 'without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all judicial guarantees which are generally recognised as indispensable', and that constitutes a war crime in the definition of the International Criminal Court. The Provisional IRA is subject to war crimes law just as much as the British government.

"A second war crime occurred by the IRA's ' refusal to acknowledge deprivation of [her] freedom or to give information on [her] fate or whereabouts'.

"Sinn Fein claims to support international law, the International Criminal Court and the International Convention on Human Rights Its leader should make clear whether this support applies to all crimes or only ones which happen far away or are the responsibility of the British forces."

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:21 AM

Divis let's go back and take a look at Den's thread. What was it again, oh yes, over a 6 year period, 1346 members of HM Forces have been convicted in courts in Northern Ireland, that number includes traffic offences, but unfortunately there is no breakdown of actual offences.

Den, Divis and Ard wish to convey the message that all 1346 were in the category of serious crimes, i.e. murder, rape, robbery and theft. This is patently untrue and they know it - it has been shown that whereas 1.5% of soldiers in Northern Ireland have been convicted of a "crime" - note motoring offences are not crimes - 1.9% of the population of Northern Ireland have been convicted of crimes (motoring offences do not feature in this percentage)

OK Divis let's have a look at Murder shall we?

2001/2002 - 29
2002/2003 - 28
2003/2004 - 21
2004/2005 - 27
Over this period that gives a total of 105 murders - All committed by members of HM Forces Divis?? Ratio of Troops to Population is 1:114, and it has already been shown that the civilian population are more likely to commit such a crime. So naw Divis, I don't think so, I would imagine very few if any at all.

OK Divis let's look at Rape shall we?

2001/2002 - 131
2002/2003 - 143
2003/2004 - 182
2004/2005 - 156
So over the period that gives a total of 612 convictions for Rape - All committed by members of HM Forces Divis?? Ratio of troops to population is 1:114. Here again I would venture to suggest that the vast bulk of those convicted of Rape in Northern Ireland were part of the civilian population and not members of HM Forces.

Are you and Den starting to get the drift Divis.

Members of HM Forces currently serving in Northern Ireland are generally more law abiding than the local population.

Just as Britain does not top any Yobs League, as figures show different and there is no league.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

So you are certain Gerry Adams was in Belfast at the time of this action ? You are certain he was area OC and in a position to give orders? Please tell us more Teribus.

So Gerry Adams wasn't interned on the Maidstone in 1972 ? you said (Gerry Adams Officer Commanding was not interned until July, 1973)

So this card he and my brother signed on the Maidstone in 1972 is a fake ? Two bastards, wait till I see both of them.

Always check your facts Teribus before you come on here and make a fool out of yourself. Oh by the way, how do you know he was area command ? He was never charged under such a title, sorry you said Alban Maginness said it. Was he sober at this stage of his life ?

Yet again you so pubicly get your facts wrong, nothing new in that, usually you vanish for a few days when this happens. Don't let me stop you.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:29 AM

Oh come on Teribus, your facts and figures have been discredited by the previous one (Gerry Adams not interned until 1973) not true Teribus he was interned in 1972. So just leave the figures, doubt anyone can or will believe you now.

Ah it only takes one slip up, doesn't it. In your case there have been a few slip ups. I have just been advised to read your posts on the Iraq war, have you slipped up there too ?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:53 AM

Sorry Divis, it's you that want to get your facts straight.

Now remember that Jean McConville was taken from her home on the night of 12th December 1972

Gerry Adams was BRIEFLY imprisoned onboard the Maidstone in 1972, but that was earlier in the year wasn't it Divis? Because the PIRA insisted that he attend talks with William Whitelaw that year and those talks took place late June/early July 1972. So the lying little tinker was out and about in December 1972.

So Gerry's lie told to Jeans daughter Helen still remains a blatant lie.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 07:58 AM

how can you have peace in northern ireland when mudcatters can't agree to put the past behind them, because protestant and catholic are just as bad as each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

So let's get this straight. In your earlier post you were certain Gerry Adams wasn't interned until 1973. Is that correct ?


Now your say he was interned in 1972 after it was pointed out to you. Is that correct ?

Come on Teribus, get the facts straight before you post, your confusing me.

Anyway, can't stop heading into "The Dubliner" for lunch here in Torrevieja. Nice little Irish spot in Spain. And they are always so keen to hear the news from home. Divis getting well known over here now. Always a lot of very nice English people there for Sunday lunch.

Enjoy your day.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:20 AM

"Now Gerry, god bless 'im, actually told Jean's eldest daughter Helen that he couldn't possibly have had anything to do with her mothers abduction and killing because he was in jail at the time of her slaughter - NOT TRUE - fancy that Gerry Adams telling lies, oh dear - Fact of the matter was that Gerry Adams Officer Commanding was not interned until July, 1973, seven months after the murder of Jean McConville."

What I have said in that quote is perfectly correct. The period of time in question is December 1972. What Gerry was trying to convince Jean's daughter of was that in December 1972 he was incommunicado, by dint of the fact that he was inside, doin' time, doin' bird, or whatever. He wasn't, was he Divis??? What Gerry's previous was is immaterial. Accept it he lied and has been caught out in that lie - just as well he didn't tell that to police eh Divis, they take a very dim view of people who lie to them in the course of a murder investigation.

Oh and of course, having been caught out on that little Porky, he obviously tells the absolute truth about everything else - You'd have a hell of a job convincing me about that - it would appear that you lot are the ones who can't even lie straight in bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Black Beauty
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:37 AM

Please move away from the past and think of the future. None of you will gain anything from all of this. It's not important anymore. Tell us of your hopes for 2007.

Love
Charlotte

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:41 AM

Re thread drift.
It was the fourth post in the thread, by Republican Ard Mhacha, that extended the discussion from last 6 years, to the 70s and the Troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 09:25 AM

I agree completely, Charlotte. Just look for any anti-English threads in the last few months and check who started then to see who you need to convince though. I agree with a lot of the sense spoken by many of the Republican contributors to this forum but I am not convinced that repeatedly starting anti-English threads is the way forward in any peace process:-(

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 10:15 AM

Terribus, you know nothing about the British illegal occupation of Ireland, even less about the Republican response to it.

You are a Canadian Orangie who has been posting offensive material on Mudcat for several years. If it's not the Democrats it's the Liberals or whatever you think will cause hurt and offense.

The people of Ireland very well know that their war for independence was led by an American Republican. Nothing has changed since those years and the Orangies would do well to pay attention to that fact.

*R*E*P*U*B*L*I*C*A*N* America fought and won sereral wars against Loyalist British forces. Doncha know any history?

Yer monarch is STILL a joke to us.

And ex British Army thugs come out here where they think nobody knows them. But guess what? we know who they are and where they are. Lets leave it at that. But if ya wanna slug it out, we'd be glad to oblige.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:20 AM

GUEST,sorefingers, another "Plastic Paddy"??

You're right, I don't know anything about the British Illegal occupation of Ireland. Because there is nothing illegal about the fact that Northern Ireland forms part of the United Kingdom. All surveys and polls seem to indicate that between 62 and 69% of the population of Northern Ireland wish it to remain so.

So I am a "Canadian Orangie", whatever that is. Sorry but you are wrong on both counts (Nationality and political/religious affiliation).

"*R*E*P*U*B*L*I*C*A*N* America fought and won sereral wars against Loyalist British forces. Doncha know any history?"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Now let's see Revolutionary War, where it was basically Brits fighting Brits, basically lost through complete and utter lack of interest - we did have a very good discussion about this war on another thread.

War of 1812, when the United States of America allied itself with Napoleonic France, The French lost the Napoleonic Wars, the Forces of the United States of America did not succeed in "liberating" Canada, basically because the Canadians did not want liberating. Looking at things from the perspective of the US the war at best could be described as a draw.

The Fennian Rebellion of 1866 or 1869. No this is one that Hollywood really should make a film about, it would make the best comedy ever. This crowd of complete incompetents couldn't even organise a bottle party in a brewery. This was one you said you'd won? Hells teeth they couldn't even find Canada, let alone invade it.

When have the US and UK fought apart from on those three occasions? Or does that what "sereral" means - three.

"Yer monarch is STILL a joke to us." Well according to most from the UK who post on this Forum, apparently not half the joke your President or your electoral system is to them.

Oh and this next bit is as priceless as it is typical:
"And ex British Army thugs come out here where they think nobody knows them. But guess what? WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND WHERE THEY ARE. Lets leave it at that. But if ya wanna slug it out, we'd be glad to oblige."

The threat "But guess what? we know who they are and where they are" I wondered where I'd heard that before and guess what it was something I read with regard to Jean McConville:

"Jim Cusick wrote that years after Jean's disappearance when the eldest girl began, with her husband, to find out what had happened to her mother, some individuals in Sinn Fein were less than helpful:

Sinn Fein figures tried on several occasions to try and block the McKendrys, continuing to threaten Seamus and Helen. The couple and their children were forced to flee their home in Poleglass because of threats. They moved to a mixed area in south Co Down but the threats continued.

The publicity given to the cases of the 'disappeared' meant that the McKendrys continued to be given some support. A couple of months after being forced out of west Belfast, the couple were invited to a reception at the American consulate in Belfast. A Sinn Fein guest at the party came over to Seamus and pointedly asked how Seamus's father was getting on and mentioned that he lived at Crossgar in Co Down. He then said to Seamus that he knew that he and Helen were living not too far away, either.

"It was just to tell us THAT THEY KNEW WHERE WE WERE and to shut up," said Seamus, who ignored the threat."

How pathetic, threats may impress you sorefingers, my reaction to them would be to advise whoever comes to come loaded for bear, neither the Scots, or the English, have ever been susceptible to threats, or cowed by them, particularly when they are uttered by morally bankrupt, contemptible scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:31 AM

I bet that felt like having a good shit Terry!

behave yourself and calm down. Pull a cracker, crack a not.... or something.....!

and don't call the bloke next to you, 'contemptible scum'!

i suppose some of these people feel its just a game. But people are watching, and being influenced. and descending to abuse is setting a bad example.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:34 AM

Predictable Terribus.

You are what you say, all of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:37 AM

Teribus the fake, ooopz the Canadian fake!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Oglaigh na hEireann
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 11:48 AM

DIVIS SWEENEY

While you're boring the arse off the clientel of that feckin theme pub in feckin Spain, back here in Belfast we're trying to organise a damage limitation campaign. All kinds of feckin shit is about to hit the feckin fan because of the feckin hornets' nest you have stirred up concerning matters we thought were dead and feckin buried.
The Big Man is none too pleased and has said that if you don't feckin stop you'd be better off staying in feckin Spain. Who the feck do you think you are? Walter feckin Mitty?

Oglaigh na hEireann (the organisation for the terminally deluded)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,OrangeOrder
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

Because King Willie played with his does not mean you can do it too. While the canny Fenians organise a revolution in Scotland you are out here daydreaming.

Go to the bathroom and wash your skull to be ready for Rock McBatts.
Orange dicipline

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

Guest sorefingers - Would you please note that threats against people are not permitted on this forum. I am quite surprised that the moderators have not yet deleted yours. I imagine it is only a matter of time. Or does we know who and where you are intimate that you are going to send them Christmas cards?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM

DtG would do well to recall that the Muddy was founded and existed for years soley as an American Blues and Folk music site before the UK folkies found it, AND it is still an American website. You should also be aware that for years we just made fun of Politics and the rest here.

You might like to chew on the fact that here in the USA, unlike the UK, free speech is guaranteed by the Bill Of Rights incoporated into our Constitution. So before you round up a posse you need to come out here, because from where you are at there is absolutely nothing you can do.

And I don't make threats, I don't need to. Ex-British Army thugs out here know who they are and those who try to hide their criminal disgusting history give themselves away by that very act. We don't need to look for them, they lead us to them every time.

Anyway every war criminaol, Nazi, British or anyother for that matter is fair game OUT HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:48 PM

Sorearse

"criminaol" ?? Go straight to gaol.

Is that how it's spelled west of the Emerald Isle?

Where's "friendly fire" when you really need it?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:58 PM

Looked very much like a threat to me. Still does. You suggest that Teribus is an ex British Army thug, living in Canada and go on to say that you know where such people live. Why else say it if it is not an attempt to intimidate? I know full well that this is a US site and should be dedicated to Folk and Blues music. If it means so much to you to keep it so why are you posting to this thread? I also point you to mudcat editorial policy.

We try very hard to preserve freedom of expression here at Mudcat, so we edit and delete messages as sparingly as we can. However, part of that freedom is that people should feel safe to be here and express their ideas without fear of being bullied or threatened. Heated discussions are generally considered "protected" around here, but if you find a post that is seriously offensive because it is a threat or a personal attack, let Joe or Pene (or Max) know about it and we'll take a look at it.

I did point this out knowing full well that threats against anyone supporting the English are the exception to the rule of course. Us Bastard Brits get all we deserve and should all be killed at birth.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Unsurprisingly Northern Ireland now has the highest rise in racist crime in the UK. Particularly racist attacks against children. It's drug seizures have also doubled and homophobic attacks are rising at a rate of knots.

I suspose the British Army are to be blamed for these too?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:10 PM

Oh, and before anyone else gets on their high horse about constitutional free speech I suggest you ask the 'Communists' subjected to McArthys

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:13 PM

C'mon spit it out!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

whoops - itchy fingers!

...McArthys investigations. The hippies making peceful protests under the home guards night sticks and the soldiers returning from Vietnam able to voice their displeasure at how they were treated.

I do recall anything similar happening in the UK. Or am I getting mixed up with Joe Stalins Russia? I get mixed up - The world outside the US is all the same to me...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM

"whoops - itchy fingers!"

Hope that's not your trigger finger DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:26 PM

Phaaat as long as folks don't try to hide what they are or did, everything is fine. But they don't.

Sneak into Canada then over the Canadian border, slither over to Las Vegas, or Los Angeles or Seattle etc. How stupid do they think we all are?

One of these days the rest of the US will wake up and decide to clean house, illegal alien criminals, war criminals and the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

Agreed, sorefingers! Common ground at last:-) People shouldn't hide what they are or what they did. I believe everyone can be genuinely sorry for past misdemeanours though - If they are genuine in that they should be forgiven as well. I think most English people are genuinely sorry for how the Irish have been treated, even if they had nothing to do with it! Some of our posters however have a different opinion and believe that even when the oppressor has been well and truly beaten they should take every opportunity to kick them while they are down. Perhaps that is why the English and Irish will never get on. Too much alike;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

I agree DtG the English , because the Scots, Welsh and Cornish are Celts like the Irish as well as the Manx people. and we all have one thing in common hate the English well some of us anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

"How stupid do they think we all are?"

Very, unless you're including the PIRA "guests" that we are harboring
here in the land of the free.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM

I hate to interrupt this otherwise delightful conversation, but the spelling of that word is "harboUring". We now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

PS I am a Colonial, and therefore exempt from the expected good manners which people have been displaying here.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:25 PM

Which army are you a Colonial in?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM

Arsehole that I am, I forgot to post LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Black Beauty
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

There are differences of opinion and disagreements, but this has become catty. You all seem to look for signs of any inherent weaknesses. In fact, the way that some members handle responses in the thread is childish.

The most important factor in determining what is best for this country through debate not bitching. If some members think they have learned the art of constructive arguing you are so wrong.

When productive arguments or disagreements degenerate into harmful name-calling and other verbal attacks, relationships among members can suffer serious damage.

Although disagreements pop-up in all subjects on this site, arguing need not grow into a bigger problem. How can you prevent differences of opinion from developing into heated and destructive arguments.

Stick To The Issue At Hand. Don't "dig up skeletons" or recall past events or circumstances. That will only make other members more disagreeable and is likely to lead to scorekeeping.

Member called "Guest" you are the worst.

Love Charlotte

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:46 PM

Straight from the horses' mouth!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.

Marcus Aurelius

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM

But Marcus is dead. And so are too many others in the conflict/troubles/civil war/war of oppression/war for liberation--call it what you will. Much of what has been posted here is pointless, because it does nothing to ease tensions. It contributes to continuing hatreds and makes impossible the meetings of minds that you all seem to need. There are too many good people forgetting that they ARE good people, because the passions of the past weigh heavy in their souls. I truly wish you would step back for a day or so and ask whether what you've contributed to this thread is about one-up-manship or about discussion; whether the angers simply conceal hatred or are stumbling steps toward a peaceful resolution; whether it is worth it to you to lose sight of what you are and forget what you might become.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

"It contributes to continuing hatreds and makes impossible the meetings of minds that you all seem to need."

I sure fucked THAT up, didn't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

Fairs fair, agreed we all are on what should be done with badies if caught, or should I now say when caught?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:51 PM

Yet again a thread dealing with Irish matters becomes slightly twisted and steered off track. This has become a trend. The purpose is clear to me.

There are English members that just make attacks on me, (no worries, can take it, took worse).

There are English members that speak with reason and understanding to the situation in Ireland.

I see the thread drift blame game has also arrived.

This thread started out in life as a news story reported in the media by a respected member of this site.

It turned into a questions and answers match about the past activities of the Provisional IRA (1969 to 2005).

Yes this was done to goat me as all members who visit Irish threads know I will defend the PIRA.

Early in this thread I received the usual dig that guests would arrive and support my case, always said half assed as if they were posted by me under "Guest".

Just look at the above arrivals, have any of them supported me in numbers ? No of course they haven't. And has any member remarked about this ? no of course not.

If any member wants to talk about Den's thread that's fine.

If any member wants to attack me and my views, that's fine too. Just make it a seperate thread.

I condemn personal attacks or threats against any member of this site. They can abuse me day or night, I have no problem with it, water of a ducks arse to me.


Divis

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:54 PM

I will NEVER not call you my friend, Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

And the same here Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

Aaah isn't that nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

Divis, you just said
"
I see the thread drift blame game has also arrived.

This thread started out in life as a news story reported in the media by a respected member of this site.

It turned into a questions and answers match about the past activities of the Provisional IRA (1969 to 2005)."

The first person to go back to the Troubles was Ard in his first post.
No one followed his lead.
Then Ard did it again in his second post.
Again everyone else kept to the original issue.
Then YOU Divis did it in your first post.
STILL everyone else kept to the original thread untill Pistaccio posted.

Hypocrisy Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:07 PM

Who's Pistaccio? Is he the guy with the nose? Or the nuts in the icecream? If the latter, he's gotta be shivering by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

The Marx brothers

Chico — Leonard, (March 22, 1887–October 11, 1961)
Harpo — Adolph ((November 23, 1888–September 28, 1964)
Groucho — Julius Henry, (October 2, 1890–August 19, 1977)
Gummo — Milton, (October 23, 1892–April 21, 1977)
Zeppo — Herbert, (February 25, 1901–November 30, 1979)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM

Karl....?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

.... and Spencer

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:25 PM

LOL

HumoUr can change things. Hope you ALL have a good Christmas season.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:12 PM

I'm Scottish I was born in Scotland and I live in Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:47 PM

Tom Hamilton - 17 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

"I agree DtG the English , because the Scots, Welsh and Cornish are Celts like the Irish as well as the Manx people. and we all have one thing in common hate the English well some of us anyway."

Well Tom I know you are from around Irvine, actually very few people who call themselves Irish, Scots, Welsh and Cornish can establish the fact that they are Celts.

Everything went into the melting pot a long time ago.

If you subscribe to the philosophy that just because you are "Scots" there is this common hatred of the English, then quite frankly I pity you. I am myself a Scot, I do not "hate" anybody based on their race, creed or colour - certainly not on their nationality - Remember that we're all Jock Tamson's bairns - that includes the English Tom.

For the non-Scots just by way of explanation:

"We're aw Jock Tamson's Bairns" (Lowland Scots for we're all John Thomson's children) is a popular saying in Scotland and is known in other parts of the world. Nowadays, the phrase is often used to mean "we're all the same under the skin".

It has been suggested as a euphemism for God, so the saying could mean "we are all God's children". Scottish Gaelic also has the shorter saying "Clann MhicTamhais" (Thomson/MacTavish's children/clan). This is a common egalitarian sentiment in Scottish national identity, also evident in the popularity of the Robert Burns song A Man's A Man for A' That.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:37 AM

ha ha ha.
LOL
Yes , it is much funnier to ridicule a member's name than to answer a charge of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM

It's only a joke, I don't really hate the English, my brother in law is English, I don't really hate anyone,I just say it as a joke.

not a funny joke I admit, so you see most of my friends are English.
Oh and my brother in law is also very very rich as well.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

OK I'M A TWO FACED I KNOW THAT, AND I'LL ADMIT TO IT, BUT CAN SOME OF YOU

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

I despair.

How can there be peace in that part of Ireland we call 'Northern', when some people are filled with such hatred and give out such bile and venom as we've seen here? It's impossible to have a rational discussion - every time there's an 'Ireland' thread, the usual suspects (on both sides) start dragging up the same old shite and playing the 'Oh yes you did, oh no we didn't' game, giving out their one-sided view of the world and refusing to acknowledge there's another.

Even guys who I know, through personal experience, are kind and compassionate people join in the shit-slinging. It's so sad. It takes two to tango, guys - dwell on that one for a while please.

I make no judgment about the rights and wrongs of what's gone on in Ireland, for the simple reason I don't know enough about it, I just wish to God that everyone, all parties, would give lasting peace a genuine chance over there. And I bet the vast majority over here in mainland UK wish the same.

Happy Christmas to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:25 AM

God and a Soldier men alike adore
When at the brink of danger, not before
The danger past, alike are both requited,
God is forgot and the brave Soldier slighted

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

You can't help some of these people because they are stuck in the past, that they can't move on, and one has hinted that they might be a member of the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM

I share your despair Johnny, but "on both sides"?

All these threads are started by Republicans.
And on this thread it was Republicans steered it back to the same old ground.
Sure it takes two to tango, but if people post attacks on a country or an institution and it goes unchalleged, the lie becomes the accepted truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:45 AM

That's rich coming from the biggest shit stirrer on this site !!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

You can call him that, but can you fault what he says?
It is actually completely accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:05 AM

I spend a very enjoyable sporting week-end and come back to see the spite and hate still being peddled by our fair-minded British friends, you may continue to glorify your colonial past, but if an Irish person gives the facts of British occupation in Ireland he is deemed a liar.

A recent independent report drew attention to collusion between loyalists terrorists and sections of the RUC and UDR 1972-77.

This pattern was also clear on a large scale throughout the 1980s and 1990s as well.
Loyalist paramilitary groups had worked their way into the the security nexus, and it was this covert arm which gave them such clout.

Many Catholics died at RUC/UDR/Army linked UVF/UDA hands for what they symbolised, rather than for any political actions.
They were killed because they were Catholic, neither age, gender nor innocence saved them.

The British government, including Special Branch and MI5, knew of these plots and could have prevented them but chose to remain silent.

Nationalists have every reason to be outraged by the secrecy preventing investigation of crimes, such as collusion and mass murder.

In a democracy it would be unthinkable for government or police to withhold information, but in N Ireland files have been concealed or destroyed,thus hindering investigations into countless murders of nationalists.

Crying out for for justice to a heedless colonial administration is useless, what is needed is an international inquiry into the whole festering issue of collusion between loyalist terrorists and the British security forces.

The important point is that the Briti government in charge of affairs here in the north of Ireland have been in league from day one with Protestant paramilitaries and no amount of twisted waffle from our band of Brits will change this.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Shaneo
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

All of this reminds me of a great song by Tommy Sands called 'There Were Roses' about a catholic and protestant who were killed in Co. Down.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:19 AM

you may continue to glorify your colonial past, but if an Irish person gives the facts of British occupation in Ireland he is deemed a liar.

Where have either of these things happened on this thread please?

A recent independent report drew attention to collusion between loyalists terrorists and sections of the RUC and UDR 1972-77.

What has this to do with the point of this thread please?

Would you please do as asked by your own countrymen and stick to both the facts and the point of the thread. If you want to start a new thread about any of your points above feel free.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:38 AM

Keith, the lies are accepted by those who accept them.

I knew a bloke who served in the BAOR in the mid 60's - lives just down the street, I played in the same band one time. he reckoned in those relatively peaceful days - the NI postng was thought to be amongst the cuhiest in the British army - amongst friendly people, and no real distance from home.

So nobody except foreigners (for that's what they are, whatever their ancestry) and people with an axe to grind are saying the British army initiated the troubles. I think every policeman in England had his head in his hands when they found out the army was going to do policing duties. Ho hum! That's really not what soldiers are trained to do. But if they acted like scum, they managed for a whole lot of years before the troubles without doing so.

The people you argue with constantly are going to think what they think. feel what they feel, say what are going to say. Its as well they do it here - lets hope it makes them feel better. Give them room.

as for Ard, he's going to go on about 'the spite and hate still being peddled by our fair-minded British friends' . He will do that til the day he dies. Poor sod - he's stuck with it.

Try and work out a better ending for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:57 AM

I know you are right Al.
I am going to try and wind my neck in a bit.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:59 AM

Good News, this information from another thread, would seem to indicate that the picture is not as bad as Den first feared:

"Subject: RE: BS: Looks like another 'Ripper' out there.
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 03:45 PM

A review of the work of the Forensic Science service in Northern Ireland found mistakes in more than a third of cases.

Thankfully forensics have moved on in the last century !!

In the last six years, the service had its accreditation suspended twice, after revelations of a falsified signature and lab practice concerns.

About 1,200 cases were checked and 555 were found to contain mistakes.

The UK Accreditation Service had suspended the service's accreditation.

A series of cases were checked between 2001 and 2003. In that two-year period it was responsible for about 2,400 cases - of those, a sample 1,200 were reviewed.

The firm found 555 of the cases contained mistakes - more than a third."

I trust that taking this into account Unionist MP Lady Sylvia Hermon can now down grade her astonishment from "utter" to just plain "astonished", or possibly "gob-smacked". And I am sure, in the light of the astonishing information detailed above (There's seems to be a lot of astonishment associated with Northern Ireland) that Ard/Divis and Den will join me in resolutely campaigning for a full Independent Public Enquiry into all 1346 cases referred to in Den's post as it looks like quite a number of our lads might have been convicted on "dodgy" evidence.


So far, in the six year, period referred to in Den's original post I have not been able to find details relating to the trial and conviction of any member of HM Forces for murder in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:59 AM

BBC R4 broadcast an interview with the man at lunch time.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM

I think its very unlikely that Ard and DS would feel the way they do without some legitimate cause for complaint. So I wouldn't jump up and down and wave your knickers in the air too quickly.

My reservations lie in the harshness of the invective, rather than the substance of what all parties have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

Any chance of a Christmas truce?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:11 PM

Wise words, WLD...things that have been in regrettably short supply for much of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

Another member started this thread as your aware. I arrived on it and gave an actual first hand account of an experience I had with a foot patrol in which I was robbed by them. Considering the title of the thread I felt my experience had some bearing. Keith refers to this post of mine as part of the drift.

My experience was not a one off incident, no point explaining the others, I will only get the rough end of the stick driven up my arse again for saying something against the British army.

If someone arrived here on a thread about the terrible events of September the 11th 2001 in America and they had been caught up in it I would imagine their first hand input would be welcomed.

The fact that I lived through the period which that has become known as "the troubles" and can relate incidents at first hand appears to be a problem to the gang on this site.

I get the usual remarks that I am anti British army and anti British government. What the f... do you expect to get from me ?
That they are a fine bunch of lads and that I have no right to want unity for my country ? Sorry I have been on the receiving end of too much for that. What is in my heart will always be there.

You are all aware I am a republican and supported the Provisional IRA.
Does this exclude me from debate ? Two members here seem to want me to personaly answer for every action the PIRA carried out between 1969 and 2005.

I support the leadership and the search for peace in Ireland, would you prefer I went the other route and said no to everything, just blow the bastards out of Ireland ? Sorry don't expect that from me.

I am who I am and if anyone has a problem with that, they are the one with the problem. Hope those who don't know who I am now have a better insight.

Peace to all over Christmas

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 04:44 PM

A very fair post Divis.

Peace to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM

Divis, I have no argument with any of that.
I did not object to your post until you complained about the thread being taken off subject and back to the troubles.
You said it was done to "goat" you.
It was not done by the "English members"

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:42 PM

Divis, your post suggests that you are somehow a victim in threads like this.
Remember please that it is never the "English members" who start this muck running.

You say "I get the usual remarks that I am anti British army and anti British government. What the f... do you expect to get from me ?
That they are a fine bunch of lads and that I have no right to want unity for my country ? Sorry I have been on the receiving end of too much for that. What is in my heart will always be there.

You are all aware I am a republican and supported the Provisional IRA.
Does this exclude me from debate ?"

No one wants to exculude you.
We all know you are anti army. So what?
No one EVER suggested you had no right to want unity for your country. Most of us can not wait for you to get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:52 PM

Divis, you're one of lifes' great victims, always looking for someone else to blame.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 06:15 PM

Sorry guys I am only having a little fun with you all.

Do you really want me to reveal myself ?
Show me your passions, your convictions,
your loves and I will know of who you are
and whence you go. And, if you say nay, I
shall not reveal myself to you, then it must
be said how little you think of yourself and
therein lies the answer. Beware of those
who do not reveal their true selves to you,
for if they are untrue to themselves, they shall
surely betray you as members failed me.

Clues

I am a member.

I have a a slightly receding hairline.

I have more pudge around my middle than I require.

My influence was drummer Billy Ficca.

I play a few instruments really badly. I play the drums very badly. And I play guitar and bass extremely badly. Pretty much the voice is what I have.

I live in the Midlands.

I don't like the Irish.

Answers on a postcard please.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:36 PM

Frankly I don't give a shit who you are Guest - you are strange.

I don't like to see you distressed DS. I would hate to think anything I said or wrote caused you distress.

the fact is though, whilst you were going through all that shit. People were living parallel lives over here. They were watching kids brought home in boxes - that they'd known only a few years earlier. And whatever their service in Ireland made them, they didn't leave here as scum - they were our kids.

I've heard you speak movingly of your losses and hurt during the troubles. I respect that.

But this storm of invective that I get on these threads doesn't make your feelings or you thoughts any more accessible. Some of the people who support you are just people with a talent for abuse. You deserve better friends.

Warm feelings of friendship

al

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:11 AM

divis, you have related tales of your run ins with army patrols many many times.
Each time the tale was exactly apposite to the discussion of the day.
In your first post here you remembered being robbed by one.
If it happened it was a crime and a breach of trust and you have my unqualified sympathy.
I have to say that you do sometimes tell deliberate lies to support your case.
There is one such exposed in this thread and I can give chapter and verse with proof of others.
You would make stronger arguments if you used examples that are common knowledge or verifiable as I try to do and Terribus is a master.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:58 AM

f--king hell Keith! I thought you were turning over a new leaf for christmas. already you're calling someone a liar.

if everyone was strictly telling the truth, the republicans, unionists, brits and irish would probably have very little to be snarling at each other about. and the world would be smelling sweet like one of glade adverts on telly, or like the winalot one one with nice music in the background and lots of handsome looking dogs running off into the sunrise....... towards a perfect world.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:37 AM

Yes. Sorry Al.
No one complains though when he calls me a liar.
(Or a lair, but that is another story)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:39 AM

So far, in the six year, period referred to in Den's original post I have not been able to find details relating to the trial and conviction of any member of HM Forces for rape in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:02 AM

Oh, I almost forgot this on-topic gem from Divis:

"British soldiers charged with rape, GBH, domestic violence, robbery,glassing some kid at a dancehall and murder. Local papers often cover it. Hard to believe these guys are actually paid to keep law and order !"

So the PIRA Apologists criteria has changed from "Convicted or Crimes" to "Charged with Crimes". I know that the Provisionals were never really big on the concept of law and order, but there is a whale of a difference in somebody being convicted of something and someone being charged with something - the presumption of innocence until proven guilty concept applies here Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:22 AM

Listen to this radio programme, this is what it really means to those involved. It's a totally different world to that inhabited by the distant dreamers, and the doctrinaire diehards.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Black Beauty
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:07 AM

A constructive response would then be to say "I'm happy that you want to see peace and want to make amends". I am able to understand you and genuinely acknowledge the seriousness of the situation.


It's reasonable to want to negotiate for peace and forgive past deeds, and there is nothing wrong with that. The overall idea is that you should never be stubborn and vindictive in refusing to forgive someone.

I see some very sad people arriving this morning only to make trouble.

Charlotte

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:48 AM

I hope people will listen to giock's programme.
It is an interview with a man bereaved of his son by Omagh bomb.2002
(no convictions yet. Anyone got any info. for police?)
The Sinn Fein council are blocking a memorial because it refers to bombers as terrorists.
Will anyone listen?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

Singularly on topic:

Original Post
"The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years in N. Ireland. The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial. The convictions hit a recent high in 2003, when serving soldiers were found guilty almost every day, 300 convictions. Considering these stats were gathered during a period of relative peace in the Province it would be interesting to see the figures for the years between 1970 and 1989. I won't hold my breath on that one. I am amazed however to see at least these figures released."

Aspects that have emerged that remain unackowledged and unchallenged:

The rate of conviction for crimes in the civil population of Northern Ireland excluding motoring offences is 1.9%

The rate of conviction for crimes amongst soldiers serving in Northern Ireland INCLUDING motoring offences is 1.5%

That would tend to demonstrate that in general the servicemen serving in Northern Ireland are more law abidding than the general population.

Convictions did reach a high in 2003. Servicemen convicted 300, or 0.8 servicemen per day, compared to civilian convictions of 96 per day, which seems to bear out what was stated in the paragraph above, particularly noting that the 0.8 per day rate includes motoring offences and the 96 per day rate does not.

In the period stipulated there have been no murder convictions or no rape convictions for any member of HM Forces serving in Northern Ireland.

With regard to figures for deaths and responsibility for those deaths between 14th July 1969 and 31st December 2001 we have the following:

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries - 2056
Unknown/Unattributed - 80

Anyone "astonished", utterly, or otherwise about any of that???

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for putting in the time on that teribus.
I expect Den will withdraw all his posts about murder and rape now.


The man in Giock's programme is a Catholic.
I know it should not make a difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:03 AM

We are repeating, repeating and repeating gentlemen.
Keith and Teribus there is a thread on collusion in the BS section.
Do you have nothing to add to it ?
Truth hurts.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:16 AM

I listened to the broadcast re. the Omagh bombing and found myself sitting with a lump in my throat. I haven't heard many demands from Republicans to brink the perpetrators to justice. They are "soldiers" who have been by-passed in the name of "political expediency" Balance it up a bit boys and shout as loud for those victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM

I wasn't going to come back to this thread after reading what went on after I left for the weekend but since people are continually bringing my name up I will counter with this. The information quoted was from the Ministry of Defence not my words. How many more times do I have to repeat this. The only piece I will consider withdrawing Keith is my reference to rape in this six year period. They mentioned sex offences that was my interpretation rightly or wrongly. Sex offence takes many guises and in an attempt not to incite further vitriol you may interpret sex offence however you like.

Teribus the devil is in the detail. You said above, "it looks like quite a number of our lads might have been convicted on "dodgy" evidence." "Might" being the operative word here. They might have been guilty of far more crimes that were never reported.

1200 cases requiring forensic tests. How many forensic tests do you think were conducted for traffic infractions? Not many I would suspect. I think forensic tests are indicative of more serious crimes.

For more detail on this information Teribus you are going to have to contact the Ministry of Defence although they seem to be recalcitrant in providing details. I wonder why because I like you would like there to be a full public enquiry into these and many more offences perpetrated by the British Government and its agents. If soldiers have been wrongly accused then they should be exonerated and likewise if the reverse is true then they should be tried for civil offences in civil courts like everyone else. Banging on about the number of offences committed by those charged with keeping the peace being only slightly better than the general populace flys in the face of law and order.

Finally although it is thread drift I utterly abhor what happened in Omagh and all those involved at whatever level of that heinous act should have the full weight of the law brought to bear.

Guest how's this for a balanced viewpoint. I have personally been robbed twice at gunpoint by British soldiers and my Godfather, a reserve police officer was shot dead by the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:15 AM

Den you have posted in outrage that soldiers have been convicted of rape and murder in last six years in NI
Now we know that they have not.
I do not expect you to suddenly welcome their presence, but some acknowledgement that you misjudged them.
Not your fault.
The MOD said inculuding those categories but did not say that there were none in those categories.
You made a perfectly reasonable assumption, but it was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:19 AM

Before Keith pulls me up on my grammer. I meant to say, "for balance."

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:21 AM

Sorry Keith got caught in the crosspost. The fact is we don't know that it is not true. The MOD are witholding details. I wish they would share what they know and a lot more besides but it is a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:25 AM

What's this world coming to. Sorry forgot the comma after "Keith" but I suppose it reads either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM

Den didn't your mom ever tell you not to argue with arses ?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 11:21 AM

I prefer how it reads with the comma!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 12:52 PM

"Guest how's this for a balanced viewpoint. I have personally been robbed twice at gunpoint by British soldiers and my Godfather, a reserve police officer was shot dead by the IRA."

Hey Den how's this for a balanced observation - You're alive, you're Godfather isn't.

Another question - Did you lodge any sort of complaint to anyone? Had that happened to me I'd have fired off complaints to the following:

- Local Police Station (Ha Ha you might well say, but it's logged)
- CO of the Regiment involved (He must respond)
- Chief Constable RUC (He must investigate)
- Ministry Of Defence (Will ensure that the CO does his job)
- Defence Secretary (Open to greatest embarassment if no result)
- MP (So that he can then embarass the hell out of everybody on your behalf)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 01:11 PM

That's right Keith and it looks less painful to boot.

Teribus, I didn't, because I felt at that time that it would be pointless. I didn't think anyone would believe me. You have to remember (I'm talking late seventies here) there were justifiable reasons why you didn't trust the authorities when you came from a nationalist background. I was young and to be honest with you I was relieved to just get away from them. They scared the hell out of me.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM

Hey Teribus how's this for a balanced observation - You're crackers, we're not.

Another question - Did you lodge any sort of complaint to anyone? Had that happened to me I'd have fired off complaints to the following:

- Local Asylum(Ha Ha they would keep you)
- CO of the Regiment involved (Put Teribus in the cooler)
- Chief Constable RUC (fruitcake Teribus on the loose)
- Ministry Of Defence (Warn everyone who lives near him)
- Defence Secretary (Ex soldier suffering PDS)
- MP (So he can get your name of the roll in case you vote for him again)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:11 PM

The MOD are witholding details

Surely that is not possible is it? If my small knowledge of how the legal system works is correct an active serviceman charged with a criminal offence is tried in both the civil and military courts. While the MOD can, and in some cases should, withold details of disciplinary hearings the civil courts can offer no such anonimilty. Unless there is very good reason, such as the age of the defendent or for serious security purposes, a judge will not apply reporting restrictions on cases that have been tried. There would therfore be common record of all such convictions. As we have already established there is no such record.

So is this, once again, media sensationalism? Pretty much like Britains yobs topping the league tables? I would usualy give my Irish collegues here credit for more intelligence than to believe the popular press but I am begining to have some reservations in the light of some recent threads.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

Sorry - apologies in advance if I am wrong but may I ask if the source of this revalation is indeed the press? If not may I ask where the figures were published and who said they included crimes that they obviously do not?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:26 PM

Terribus is a poser, a troll with nothing but hateful things to say to peop;le about other people.

Go away Terribus and do the decent thing for your own sake! Get a life, get a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 08:55 PM

Guest Sorefingers,

You really haven't got a clue have you.

I have no idea what age you are, and while I may respect your feelings of pride in your Irish-Americam/ Irish-Australian heritage please don't confuse that with any sort of ability or insight as to what has been been happening in Northertn Ireland over ther past forty years, your perception of which appears to be governed by emotion and not by commonsense.

First of all ask yourself the question where your roots come from.

Then ask yourself what axe they had to grind to justify how they ended up in the position that they were in. Please note that for every one Irishman sent to Botany Bay there were four Englishmen sent there.

Then rationalise how that worked out against the bigger picture at the time.

DtG, has got it absolutelly right, while the military may hold back information the civilian courts cannot.

Now what did our "Guest" contribute:
GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:14 PM

Hey Teribus how's this for a balanced observation - You're crackers we're not. - Well then "Guest" you tell me - Would you actually be in place of Den, robbed by British Forces, or his Godfather killed by the IRA. Fine distinction but I'll give you an Nanno-second to think about it.

Another question - Did you lodge any sort of complaint to anyone? Had that happened to me I'd have fired off complaints to the following:

- Local Asylum( Now realistically what would they have to contribute to anything in a case like this - absolutely nothing which is why I didn't mention them in the first place)
- CO of the Regiment involved ("Put Teribus in the cooler" - You have have obviously no idea how military justice works - any complain must be addressed)
- Chief Constable RUC (fruitcake Teribus on the loose - hey man if you've got a complaint that has any foundation you go to the man at the top - now just tell me what is fruitcake about that?? Oh yes, you'd rather do fuck all than complain about it - Just exactly what the fuck are you? Sheep or men?)
- Ministry Of Defence (Warn everyone who lives near him - Huh this means what?? Totally illogical, the Ministry Of Defence is a "Him"?? Hey pal go away and educate yourself)
- Defence Secretary (Ex soldier suffering PDS - Hey - I would like to think of a time in the UK when the Secretary of Defence had any experience of life in the military)
- MP (So he can get your name of the roll in case you vote for him again - glad you picked up on the fact that I was talking about the Member of Parliament and not the Military Police)

In summation you really are a morally bankrupt collection of sons of bitches

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 10:35 AM

This information came from Armed Forces minister Adam Ingram in answer to a question posed to him by Ulster Unionist MP Lady Sylvia Hermon in Paliament last week.

Teribus, who are the sons of bitches you're referring to: mudcatters, people who disagree with you, people you appear to be unable to bully, Irish/heritage posters, the Irish in general, can you explain?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 12:56 PM

As an occasional visitor to this informitive site I can well understand the last note on Teribus he seems to be at war with everyone, those Threads on Bush and Iraq has this man dancing, I would advise all of those people who reply to this man not to do so, he seems to be emotionally unbalanced.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

Guest 12.56 what teribus does do is (as you know) present indisputable fact and rip to shreds with fact the emotive lie laden utterings of the perpetual 'victim.'

The success of this becomes apparent when each time he does this we get a response such as yours.

The more pro IRA threads posted it becomes clearer that the pro IRA posters can not answer his questions and resort to insulting the man.

They are becoming a complete laughing stock now. You think they'd give up as they have not once been able to back up the drivel they post when they start the thread. They rely on a few plastic paddies - all uninformed to bang their drum. These plastic paddies have made a collective ass of themselves now.

It isn't comfortable watching grown men spew hatred and flounder when faced with reasoned argument. I guess they must enjoy the conflict here.

Thank god for teribus, without him some fools may actually begin believing the pro IRA crap peddled here.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:17 PM

*ROFL* Thanks Guest: 05:15 PM...I needed that laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:23 PM

Well said Guest Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM

No need for thanks paul. Laughing is easier than answering teribus's questions isn't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 05:58 PM

Absolutely....let him waste his time trawling the net for things that he believes or hopes people cant answer.

To answer him is also playing his game.

I get my pleasure from other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:06 PM

He's the only fella in this thread who can back up his arguments to my way of thinkin'. What's the beef? I reckon he's got ya on the run.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 06:33 PM

Sorry meant to add he has left now because you weren't nice to him. Hilters hencemen would of loved him, because he said soldiers shouldn't be pulled up for war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 12:38 PM

THERE WERE ROSES
(Tommy Sands)

My song for you this evening, it's not to make you sad
Nor for adding to the sorrows of this troubled northern land,
But lately I've been thinking and it just won't leave my mind
I'll tell you of two friends one time who were both good friends of mine.

Allan Bell from Banagh, he lived just across the fields,
A great man for the music and the dancing and the reels.
O'Malley came from South Armagh to court young Alice fair,
And we'd often meet on the Ryan Road and the laughter filled the air.

There were roses, roses
There were roses
And the tears of the people
Ran together

Though Allan, he was Protestant, and Sean was Catholic born,
It never made a difference for the friends, it was strong.
And sometimes in the evening when we heard the sound of drums
We said, ``It won't divide us. We always will be one.''

For the ground our fathers plowed in, the soil, it is the same,
And the places where we say our prayers have just got different names.
We talked about the friends who died, and we hoped there'd be no more.
It's little then we realized the tragedy in store.

It was on a Sunday morning when the awful news came round.
Another killing has been done just outside Newry Town.
We knew that Allan danced up there, we knew he liked the band.
When we heard that he was dead we just could not understand.

We gathered at the graveside on that cold and rainy day,
And the minster he closed his eyes and prayed for no revenge.
All all of us who knew him from along the Ryan Road,
We bowed our heads and said a prayer for the resting of his soul.

Now fear, it filled the countryside. There was fear in every home
When a car of death came prowling round the lonely Ryan Road.
A Catholic would be killed tonight to even up the score.
``Oh, Christ! It's young O'Malley that they've taken from the door.''

``Allan was my friend,'' he cried. He begged them with his fear,
But centuries of hatred have ears that cannot hear.
An eye for an eye was all that filled their minds
And another eye for another eye till everyone is blind.

So my song for you this evening, it's not to make you sad
Nor for adding to the sorrows of our troubled northern land,
But lately I've been thinking and it just won't leave my mind.
I'll tell you of two friends one time who were both good friends of mine.

I don't know where the moral is or where this song should end,
But I wondered just how many wars are fought between good friends.
And those who give the orders are not the ones to die.
It's Bell and O'Malley and the likes of you and I.

There were roses, roses
There were roses

when will you ever learn.