BS: Stages of Human Male Development

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak ducking and running for cover
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 10:17 AM

"On the other hand, if in a verbal confrontation,it is much better to argue with a man,"

I'd agree with that:~ a battle of wits, but I don't like fighting an unarmed opponent.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 11:59 AM

Didn't understand who the comment "battle of wits" was meant for, but do know my IQ places me in the top 2%. I reiterate, all of the previously stated situations still exist. Would someone please deal with the problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:27 PM

You are right about the beer and our confidence which seems to lessen with age(become more circumspect). In reality men would be just as happy living in a cardboard box, just don't tell the women I said that. More and more I am getting this urge to go live in a shack in the bush with enough level ground to be able to take off and land my plane.

Sounds all right to me. Maybe you just haven't met the right women.

Other than that, if the patriarchal societies that have dominated Western civilization up until, as able contends, the last 25 years or so had bothered to educate their daughters instead of teaching them cooking, needlework, and very little else, said daughters could have done some of that inventing for them (and there are numerous exceptions throughout history that support this). If you want to keep us ignorant and dependent, then don't complain that we've been . . . ignorant and dependent.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 12:29 PM

I should add that I don't think jokes bashing either gender are funny.

Although the Santa Claus one was sort of cute, but maybe I think so because the men in my family really do end up looking like Santa Claus when they get older.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

Able... sounds like you are best qualified for the job. Get right on it and report back when you have solved all the problems.

Thanks in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 01:59 PM

...On the other hand, if in a verbal confrontation,it is much better to argue with a man, this is because a verbal assault with another woman can become much more degrading...


Plus, the making-up afterward is much more rewarding.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jan 07 - 02:30 PM

Until you gotta pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:43 AM

OK able. So you are in the 2% who are really good at solving the sort of problems that the sort of people who think being good at solving that sort of problems think makes them intelligent. So'm I. But I don't think that it does.

It isn't the number of brain cells, anyway. It's the number of connections between them, and that depends on how they are used. I don't know, off hand, how much work has been done on this, but seem to recall that women have more connections between the hemisphers than most men. Most men have not been involved in inventing anything. A number of women have, on record. Probably more off record, because they make little adjustments around their functions in the home.

I'd like to know just which women have been involved in sending soldiers off to Iraq. Toni Blair? Georgina Bush? Donna Rumsfeld? Can't do anything with Dick Cheney.

And your evidence for the swing of the pendulum past centre? Mind you, it was so far over the male side that it would be hard to get it centred and then just stop.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Schantieman
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 07:47 AM

Just don't try arguing with them on those few days out of each 28 when ALL reason leaves them!

S

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:23 AM

I'd like to know just which women have been involved in sending soldiers off to Iraq. Toni Blair? Georgina Bush? Donna Rumsfeld? Can't do anything with Dick Cheney.

LOL   and I bet a 'Chick Deney' would be much more workable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:54 AM

"Men mature after exhausting all other options."
Now, as a male, I should be offended. So, how come I'm not only not offended, but amused?
When I see my brothers sitting back with a case of beer watching a bunch of 'good ol' boys" go round and round all afternoon, or another bunch jumping all over each other in an attempt to win some silly ball kicking thing, that saying has a ring of truth, doesn't it?

Let the shit storm begin.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 08:56 AM

LOL freda.

Re gender bashing. There have been an awful lot of jokes that might be considered degrading to women. How about 'why do women have smaller feet? So they can get closer to the sink'. That's one of the milder ones that I have heard. I've generally thought that those were pretty funny, so long as they are being told by men who don't regard them as being reality. But then, I'm pretty secure about being female and I, too, am in the top 2% of the population IQ wise.

From personal experience I have found that the folks who find gender based jokes offensive have issues with gender as a whole. As I say, this is based purely on my own personal experience and I have no data to back it up.

I am puzzle by Able's contention that it is a Matriarchy that will be sending troops to Afghanistan. I thought that, right now, all the leaders involved in that abomination were male. Or are they being egged on by their wives to send boys out to die? As a female I am sickened on a daily basis by the maiming and killing of one human being by another in these conflicts. In my view the leaders who want to get into these wars should be out there in the front line.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:30 AM

I am puzzle by Able's contention that it is a Matriarchy that will be sending troops...

I think able just enjoys a fable.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 09:37 AM

There is gender bashing, and there is wry humor. Two examples:

Why did the cave men drag the women by their hair?
Because if they dragged them by their feet, they would fill up with dirt.
Now, that, and any other "joke" about women's genitalia are offensive. I think that men who think that's funny, and can't wait to repeat it, have an issue with being able to relate to women. It's 8th grade hunor.

Why are Dolly Parton's feet so small?
Because nothing grows in the shade.
To me, this is clever, but not especially offensive.

A guy comes home after being on a week long drunk.
His wife, furious, said "Where the hell have you been"?
"On a drunk, why"?
She said, "How would you like it if you didn't see me for a week,"?
He said "I'd love it"!

About a week later, he could see her a little bit out of the corner of one eye.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:51 AM

Will attempt to deal with comments as best I can. Penny s:-women have what is called a hard-wired connection between logic and emotion, men don't. Any tradesman is inventing all the time, new circuits techniques etcetera because every situation is unique. I used to design and build industrial machinery, production always increased and people always decreased. That stinks. Canada was intelligent enough to stay out of Iraq, but will say American troops seem to follow the oil. I have neither the right or knowledge to comment further on another countries foreign policy, but my sympathies definitely lie with the poor bugger in the field who is paying the price. American women can only watch in envy the extent to which Canada has become a matriarchy, 5 billion was advanced for child care and will explode to 12 billion a year if the present government can't somehow reverse the process. We don't even begin to spend that kind of money on defence, our navy recently bought 3 used subs from the brits and while they were trying to bring them to Canada a man died in a fire, this, after they were refurbished. jacqui c:- Couldn't agree with you more on the politicians but would insist that women be included with the men, a woman can stop a bullet almost as well as a man. As far as jokes go, they almost always always victimize someone. As for dragging women by their feet, that isn't humour it's filth. As to whether you are a matriarchy, watch tv and compare the number of male bashing shows movies and commercials, as opposed to the female bashing. That's right girls, scary isn't it, especially when you take into account the number of times you depend on one these morons to save your life fix your car &&&&&&&&&&&&!!!!!!!!!. When the twin towers came down the female firefighters rep wanted her women included in the memorials that followed, this, even after she was told no female firefighters had been killed. I'm trying not to wander but the fields are so broad and the injustice so prevalent that one person can't even begin to address the problems. In parting, a huge number of inventions were made by unschooled men working full time to support their families and part time on their inventions. At this point in time I can't help but think of 2 bicycle makers who built some kind of flying machine part time. The reason most men don't invent anything is because they work at a dead end job that they hate so much it takes years off their lives. The main reason they don't take risks is because they are in debt so far that all they have to do is think about losing their jobs and they break into a cold sweat. Those women who represent the sole wage earner of their family should be able to identify with this situation. My deepest apologies for the ramble, I still remember the days when men risked their lives to save women they didn't know. And what about the Titanic, who the hell got all the damn lifeboats?

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:13 AM

Could you give me references on the hard wiring for follow up, please? I do like to go back to sources in science.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:27 AM

I've googled a bit on it, which has thrown up nothing authoritative, but a reference to women using both sides of the brain for emotion, men only one - not backed up. I believe that to be shown in the case of language.

What keeps coming to mind is the behaviour of men on the road, where there seem to be strongly emotional behaviours, that emotion being anger, or aggression, which seems to cut in pretty suddenly without any logical reason.

I think there is a tendency to equate "emotion" with the softer versions seen as feminine, rather than the fiercer emotions characteristic of testosterone.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:29 AM

Oh, yes, there were references to work in which, in both men and women, when there was a conflict between logical and emotional reactions, the logical parts of the brain, as shown in scans, were more active.

Didn't think the situations were much of a reflection of reality, though.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

essay on the subject

Philosophy rather than science. Not easy to be certain of the gender of the author, if that matters, because of the name, Robin being ambiguous. There is a reference to a wife, but this might be a hypothetical case.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:20 AM

Able - check back in time. For the main part women, except in the upper strata of any society, would work as hard as the men, in the fields, in industry, in service. My grandmother, from the age of ten worked part of the day in the mills, went to school for part of the day. Women's work in the home was done without the benefit of machines - hard, backbreaking work it was too. Have you have tried doing a week's washing by hand, in the sink? I have - takes most of the day to do it properly. At the same time there were generally children to take care of in the days before birth control became available.

During both World Wars women took over and did the jobs that were left when the men went off to fight - my mother worked in a munitions factory in London - not the safest place in the world given the Nazi propensity for bombing the hell out of that sort of target in the Capital.

These days it's a lucky woman who can stay home full time and just be a homemaker. Most families are unable to manage without that second wage coming in and the wife has no choice but to work. If she's lucky she'll have a partner who will help with the household chores and looking after the children - I can think, personally of at least three families I know where that doesn't happen - the man seems to have your attitude - that he's doing a full time job already and shouldn't have to do anything else when he gets home. Conversely, I know of a number of households where the burden is shared.

I had both a father, and later a husband, who had the opinion that they were the final decision maker because they were male and that I should have to bow to their wishes in all matters. Today I am lucky to be married to a man who respects me for who I am and does not feel the need to direct me in the way that he thinks is right.

Up until relatively recently it was very difficult for women to get jobs in the fire service in particular and other male preserves. I think most of us can think of areas which were seen as 'men only'. At the same time some occupations were seen as 'women's work' and very few men ever got into those, or wanted to. Nowadays that division has come down to a degree, but there are still very few women in the really high ranks of the armed forces or even politics and there are still, it seems, too may men who believe that our place is in the home, or working in jobs where we can't exert very much influence.

In a lot of what were previously male dominated occupations there are still men who resent the influx of women into what they see as their territory and who can make it difficult for any woman with the temerity to trespass there to actually do the job. If you have ever worked in an office where a woman has made it to upper management you will likely be aware of the comments from lower placed men as to how she got the job and her sexual preferences, or what life must be like for her poor husband. A man can be assertive, a woman is just bossy and 'it's probably her time of the month'. I've heard all of that in my time.

There are still countries in the world where women cannot receive an education whilst men can and where they are banned from working. I can't think of any country where the reverse is the case. Male domination has been the norm for so many years – read the Bible – that, if there is now a reaction by women it is hardly surprising.

The media's tendency to dumb down men I find extremely distasteful, in much the same as the fifties adds portraying a woman as the little wifey with no thought in her head other than to keep the home sparkling and put a hot meal on the table for the Man Of The House. Neither is a true depiction of the sex and it should be borne in mind that there is always a need by the media to pander to those that they see as having the power of the purse and right now that is women.

Maybe one day there will be an enlightened world where someone's gender does not dictate what they can and cannot do. I doubt that we will live to see it but, at least we can try and do our own little bit to dispel the myths around the battle of the sexes by our own example.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:44 AM

Back in the 70s, a thief was caught breaking into my friend's place of business. The first officer on the scene was a female, and she ran the thief to ground and cuffed him before the other officer got to the spot.

A few years later, the house I was living in was broken into and a lot of stuff stolen. I gave a list of the stolen goods with their serial numbers, and a few days later a female officer caught the thief. A routine traffic stop was all it took. The ledge over the back window used to have two big speakers and they had been removed leaving two big holes. She looked to see what was in the trunk, and bingo, stolen goods. He got 5 to 7 in the state prison.
I wrote a letter of thanks for a job well done to her superior, but I never got a response. I've often wondered if he even told her about the letter.

Women generally lack the upper body strength of men, but they are certainly qualified to do most any kind of work. The thing is, in the military or the police force, many of the men resent the fact that women can do their job as well as they can, and they act like nasty little boys to show their displeasure.
I remember when Admiral Zumwalt first allowed women to serve on the ships there were predictions of sex orgies and an overall collapse of the whole system. There have been isolated cases, but no disaster yet.

"It ain't what you don't know that hurts you, It's what you are sure of that ain't true"

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Gizmo
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM

Here here Jacqui C and I wholly agree. I can't stand the adverts where men are put down as nothing but a little man.

I disagree with able on the invention ground idea. Marie Currie was a pioneer in medicine, yet she was for many years the second in command of her husband, yet she had good medical background herself.

The problem arose that by the time the women had done the housework, probably thinking of many time saving inventions, never had the time to carry out the inventions in the long run! Many times I've stood at the kitchen sink, washing clothes and uniforms for my kids ( when the washing machine broke down, no money etc), and had brilliant ideas and theories to write in my coursework (molecular biology) only to find that by the time I had done the chores, sorted out the kids for bed etc, could not remember the train of thought and ideas I had.

Also, how many inventions have caused human destruction? Poverty and social division? many were made by men.

As an example, a stocking knitter was being persued by a young man she constantly turned down. Giving him the excuse that she was busy knitting for sale of stockings. That was after all her job. This young man promptly thought of a way to help her, by doing the job for her. He invented the knitting machine, which when it was produced, still left this woman turning him down. Why?
Because, only men were allowed to use the machine, and because it saved labour time, he effectively lost her, her job.

Now that be man thinkin' eh?

Sometimes inventions are just meant to not be invented. Atom bomb for one!

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 04:18 PM

Another thread to say that men and women are equally capable of doing most things the other can do but that they are different. Brain Freeze 101.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 08:46 PM

When I first heard that joke my initial reaction was to laugh, because I just thought it was funny. A day or two later, though, it started bothering me...just like it bothers WYSIWYG. Same basic reaction. I find it sad and kind of depressing how standard it has become in western society to denigrate and trivialize men. It seems unhealthy and kind of nasty...just as it is when denigrating and trivializing women.

I say this as no bad reflection on my friend who told me the joke, by the way. But I've been observing what's been happening in the general scene for the last few decades regarding the perception of males, and I don't like it, this constant insulting downgrading of men that's going on.

Then that got me thinking about something else. Living in this western society right now...in the present milieu, with our present freedoms...would I rather be a man or a woman, given the choice? (I am a man.)

Here's what I came up with after not much time required to decide. I'd rather be a woman right now. And here's why...

If I had been born a woman, I could have gone through childhood and adolescence and actually been encouraged by my peers to be mature, responsible, serious, articulate, neat, and polite, not ridiculed for so doing. That would definitely have been preferable to what I experienced as a boy.

If I had been born a woman, I would not have been required to engage in various aggressive macho pursuits like football, hockey, etc which I had no natural liking for...in order to "prove" myself to my peers and be considered attractive to the opposite sex.

If I had been born a woman, I would not have had to get publicly drunk and swear a lot in order to prove myself to my peers either. Numerous further examples of this sort of aggressive "acting out" thing for males exist, you get the general idea...?

Moving on to adult roles, if I were a woman I would get to choose from a far more interesting and imaginative set of choices in how to clothe myself, do my hair, and generally present myself to the world.

I would be encouraged to deal in the subtleties of life! I love subtlety, in any area of human concern. I would be encouraged to appreciate beauty, grace, poise, and other such values, and to develop those values in myself.

I would get to have a female singing voice. On the whole, I find that the better female vocalists have a more attractive and greater vocal range than most males with greater expressive possibilities...although...there are certainly some extraordinary male vocalists out there who would be exceptions to what I am saying. It's just a general observation, not an across-the-board rule or judgement on my part.

So there you are. I'd rather be a female, given the choice. I think it would be more fun. I think it would be more interesting.

Or maybe it's just that I think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 PM

I wouldn't want to be a female.

Unless I could be a lebian.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:17 PM

To be honest, LH, I much prefer male singers. I find so many female ones that are too close to squeaky for my taste. I think many sopranos are just damn bland. But maybe that's thinkin' the grass is greener on the other side too.
As for the rest...
I will point out that women have their own distasteful cultural pressures. The obsession with looks I find particularly disturbing, and the pressure to conform to style. Not only in clothing, but weight issues and such as well. And the destructive social relations some girls find themselves are quite sad.
A light hearted talk on some of this:
Clicky clicky
This is the media prof Michael Strangelove, of whom I've spoken before. I find him fairly entertaining.... ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:46 PM

What the f__king f__k is a lebian?

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Peace
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:56 PM

I wonder if the newspaper would have printed something equivalent about women? And how that would have been received? Yeah, right!

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:03 AM

"Lebien is a community in Wittenberg district in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany."

Mr Google is our friend.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:26 AM

Excellent point, Peace, and one that had occurred to me too. You can ridicule and denigrate men as a gender all you want nowadays in movies, the presss, and in general....but try that on women and "POW!" ...the big hammer comes down.

I don't think that's fair and equitable. Everyone should get respect and consideration...not just those who are perceived to have suffered discrimination in the past.

Omaar - Yeah, you make some darned good points there. Women do have to put up with some bothersome nonsense too. Maybe the grass just always looks greener on the other side. ;-) Perhaps you and I like singers of the opposite gender more because we are just naturally drawn more to the opposite gender in the first place. I know that was a big part of it with me. Of my favorite singers to listen to, most have been female....but if a man had something to say that I really liked (as with Bob Dylan or Al Stewart or Gordon Lightfoot or Jackson Browne), then naturally I wanted to hear his stuff just as much.

The male singer whose pure vocal technique I like the best is Jackson Browne. Super voice on that guy.

Stan Rogers had a killer voice too, but I wasn't that interested in what he had to say most of the time. It's darned good, just isn't exactly my cup of tea, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:43 AM

Iwould like to point out to the girls that I qualified my statement about inventions by saying ALMOST everything. No one would deny that some women have made inventions, but the vast majority were made by men. I'm glad to see that others have seen the present state of affairs perhaps both genders can find a common ground to help eliminate injustice to either gender. The actions of the extremists on both sides can only harm both of us. I have a large book on unsolved crimes, and it was astounding how many women were raped and murdered and their bodies tossed away like pop cans. It is sickening to me that this is an ongoing process. Would I want to be a woman, not after reading that book. The most terrible part about that situation is, these men were created. Investigate the childhood of Henry Lee Lucas and you will find a common thread exists between him and almost every other murderous bastard. Would like to deal with things point by point girls, but I still have to get some sleep. Bye for now.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:37 AM

You're very brave LH, posting such thoughts here! (Who's de man, who's de MAN!) And I must say you've made some interesting and valid points -- BUT -- I think you're only seeing half the meadow if you know what I mean. The part you may NOT see includes:

* approx 4 decades of monthly sojourns to the itty-bitty-shitty-pot, while being expected to ACT like one is NOWHERE NEAR that itty-bitty-shitty-pot;

* about 6 or 7 decades of doing double duty in the home (ie breadwinner PLUS chief bed-maker/bottle washer/baby-tender) most of which could be classified as slave labour (particularly during said sojourns to shitty-pot)

* being at least a thousand times as likely as men to be sexually harrassed, abused and/or raped every time you walk out your door

* having to deal with the fact that your orgasms can, if you're not careful, quite often cause you 9 months of severe bloating, followed by few months/years of UDDER service (moo moo) and a whole lifetime of parental responsibility - which, as a female, you are much more likely to have to face all by your lonesome.

I only listed 4, but they're biggies in my book! So count your blessings, LH. And don't worry, there's always next time round....

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 07:52 AM

See, this is part of the problem. Both sexes can find good reasons, from their point of view, for why they have the harder time.

Life ain't always easy or fair and it is so tempting to think that it would have been so much better if......

Maybe what we need to learn is more respect for each other, male or female. Look past gender and see the person and then make the decision as to whether this is someone you want to get to know better. With respect and a GENUINE liking for people those jokes lose their ability to offend. Both Kendall and I 'snipe' at each other but it's done because we are both secure in the other's affection and we each make the other laugh.

Complaints about how difficult life as a male/female is are naturally going to evoke a defensive response in the opposite sex. Live with it - unless you go for the surgery you are never going to be able to even get near experiencing that other life.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

Live with it - unless you go for the surgery you are never going to be able to even get near experiencing that other life.

ANd even with surgery, I doubt very much one could really experience what life is really like on the other side of the fence. Medical science and the cosmetic industry can relieve a guy of his 'dangling participles', provide him with a couple strategic bumps, even drill out an extra opening. But even so, he will never experience the wonders of the monthly pity-pot, or the 9 months of bloating followed by several hours of intense agony, or have to worry that he might be an UDDER failure, or have 95% of the daily household responsibilities heaped on his aching little shoulders 24/7 for decades and decades....

And he will never know what it's like to go through life feeling and thinking and behaving, mostly subconsciously, as if he's a second-class citizen. As if he was born only to meet the endless needs and desires of others. In general, men are less likely to EVER perfect the art of putting themselves last and other people first, simply because they are socialized for the opposite. And socialization is as much a part of gender as biology.

There's a thriving Wiccan circle in my area, exclusively for women. They bar males from their circles and camps -- and that means ALL males, including boys over the age of 3. Why? Because, they tell me, males over 3 cannot help but move in and take right over. Males automatically work to control (ie rule!) whatever space they happen to find themselves in, and women, in spite of themselves, will automatically move over and to bow to male authority.

I have also been told recently, by a therapist who trains in shamanic circles, that men suck women's life-force energy -- not because they choose / want to, or because they are mean or evil, but simply because that's how energy just naturally flows between the sexes. All Life and all Power comes from the female, from the Goddess, they say. Males seed that life, of course -- that's their function - but the Power and the energy of life are Hers.

Without her power of physical manifestation, he remains nothing but a thought, a desire, an idea, a dream. He needs Her to make Himself Real ....

Don't know what to make of all that, just yet -- but it's intriguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

For your own well being, change therapists. The one you have is obviously a man hating crackpot. She could do you irreparable damage. Run don't walk away from this woman SHE needs a therapist more than the average maniac. I have worked with the mentally ill, shiizophrenics, manic depressives border line personality disorders and anti- social behaviour disorder. This woman is DANGEROUS.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:40 AM

able, this therapist is well-guided, well-equipped, well-informed, well-spoken, successful, happy, kind, funny, helpful, compassionate, loving, accepting, well-adjusted, honest.

Has a great sense of humour, too.

His name is Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 11:53 AM

If you quoted Doug word for word then I reiterate RUN.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:13 PM

Oddly enough, I've come across spiritual/mystical/shamanic stuff of one sort or another that states both of the following propositions:

Men suck women's energy.

Women suck men's energy (specially during the sexual act).

Whole lotta energy-sucking going on! (grin)

Maybe it happens both ways. Maybe it also depends to some extent on the nature of the individuals involved.

Maybe there is a useful energy exchange. That would seem like a reasonable possibility to me, and one that would encourage people to get together for mutual benefit. Nature certainly seems to think so, judging by what's going on out there with people and animals.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:15 PM

Oh, Daylia, yeah...I was always keenly aware of those specific drawbacks to being female that you mention! Hmmm. It ain't a bed of roses whatever way you look at gender choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

Not sure I quoted Doug word for word -- it's just part of an interesting conversation we had as he treated my strained shoulder with laser and trigger-point massage therapy.

I am so very PLEASED with these treatments! This shoulder had been getting progressively worse - painful and immobilized - since last summer, and now, after only two weeks and 7 half/hour laser/massage sessions I have almost full use of it back!

YIPPEEEEEE!!!!    :-)

Anyway, I digress. I just may be able to RUN away though - but I need to risk the danger for a couple more sessions, I think. I want him to work on on a sore, swollen foot/ calf muscle / knee before running 2 flights of stairs.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:28 PM

Whole lotta energy-sucking going on! (grin)

Hee hee you sound just like Doug! You guys are great    :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

The stuff Doug is saying is fairly common in North American Indian shamanic tradition...as regards the spiritual nature and significance of men and women here in the physical world. It never interfered one bit with men's autonomy and their effectiveness as men in the this physical existence, as can easily be seen by observing what went on with Native Americans back in the frontier times and before.

This world was seen by them as a sort of dream-existence, in which things appear and seem much realer than they are. Eastern religions (Vedanta and Buddhism) also see it that way: they say emphatically that this world is an illusion, a dream, an imagining. Beyond it is an eternal spiritual existence that is vastly realer.

The temporary is seen as unreal. All physical things are temporary. The eternal (Spirit) is seen as the only thing that is real...and it's a single Unity...whereas physical things are apparently separate. Such separation is seen to be another form of illusion. Enlightenment is seen to be the stage where nothing appears separate from oneself any longer.

To theorize about such things is not dangerous in the least, and it does not interfere with one's ability to be effective within the boundaries of this physical life...as has been proven by millions of Native Americans, East Indians, Buddhists, etc...

Therefore, able, I think you are sounding the alarm unnecessarily here. Daylia's getting massage therapy and laser therapy for sore muscles, she is not getting her head shrunk. If she gets to discuss some interesting shamanic stuff with a friend along the way, no big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Gizmo
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:08 PM

Daylia, while also a pagan, I could never bring myself to join a female only wiccan coven, purely for the fact that the energies to be called upon are both masculine and feminine. To have all females, you are pivoting over the edge of a feminine balance to something else. Woman also have bad sides, and can be spitefull, vicious, catty and subtley manipulative, before you realise you've been manipulated. In life as well as religion, I beleive we should appreciate the male and female form and energies for what they are, both positives and negatives.

Serious thread drift here I know - but throughout my life (and I'm still only in my twenties) I have had to fight against male dominance. My father for one, has a noticable lack of respect for what I say, yet can hear the same words from my younger brothers mouth. I am not seen exactly as an equal. I know that I am. My mother however female rightous she could be, would still make my dads dinner, and serve his food first. The things she said and things she did contradicted. I on the other hand became single purely because after I had constantly been ignored and treated like the little woman, the little woman suddenly became Budecea (however you spell her name!). Still I have had to fight verbally, even physically against males in my life, and have been matched equally. Neither more or less. That has what has got me victory - I have the knowledge that I am neither better or worse than my counterpart, they on the otherhand think I'm less than they are. The shock tends to be great.

I have always been a bit tomboyish and hated the thought that I was a girl growing up. As an adult, I still prefer trousers, but I also embrace that I am a female.

And yes, the media still exploit women for a recent example I was disgusted by the I'm a celeb get me out (in) the jungle....A woman was put up to wear a skinny white bikini and wash her body with soap under a shower until some key/token was uncovered by the soap to rescue her fellow Celebrity jungle buddy. The footage taken was numerous and tended to focus heavily on her bikini. When she came out of the jungle, she was shocked at the footage, and had no idea that they were filming her for so long, or even showed the film on TV. If that is not respect for someone, then I don't know what is?
She took it in good faith, but it was still an unnecessary intrusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:31 PM

Very interesting and perceptive comments there, Gizmo. Well said. I had to fight against an extremely male dominant father too...only I was a boy. I did not choose to imitate my father's approach to life.

The Celtic heroine has been called "Boadicea" (BO-Ah-Diss-SEE-Ah) and "Boudica" (BOO-di-ka), among other things. Any translation of an ancient name into modern English is apt to be a bit inaccurate, but we do the best we can as the centuries roll by.

You would probably really enjoy a story toward the end of the thread on fencing. It's about a French actress (some centuries ago) who dueled 6 men who insulted her at a party, dueling them with swords, and beat all of them, one after the other. Check it out. It's one of the best stories I've ever heard. They ought to make a movie about her.

Matter of fact, they should do one about Boudica too...it would be a treat to see the Romans lose some battles for a change.

thread about fencing

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Gizmo
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:42 PM

Thank you Little Hawk, the name spelling always gets me finger tied.

I used to do Judo as a kid, and ended up being the only girl in the class, but I was small and squat (still am) hence low centre of gravity, major hip throw straight into an arm lock was my combination for any opponent taller than me, which became the case as I rose up in the ranks and became one of the top juniors. I had to stop through knee problems caused by one leg shorter than the other. Everytime we had a new girl turn up, I was told to hold back, so as not to frighten them away. When it came to tournaments, and I could only fight girls, I always held back (and lost) because that was what I was taught to do. I could always win a fight with the boys though! They soon learnt not to hold back in a judo competition with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: GUEST,Seiri Omaar
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 04:17 PM

"Boudica" is the correct spelling, at least from what can be determined by Celtic linguists from the oldest sources. I have no citable source for this but the word of the chair of Celtic Studies at the University of Ottawa. *guilty of taking many Celtic studies classes*
Thanks for pointing out that fencing story LH, I hadn't read that far in the fencing thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 05:10 PM

Hate to admit it but I flunked out of warlock 101, guess I'm out of my depth. Seriously, many cultures have been assimilated or worse yet ignored. I do have to wonder what life would be like today if we had taken the best of all cultures to improve todays culture. Anybody can destroy, it takes intelligent people to build.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: *daylia*
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 07:27 AM

To have all females, you are pivoting over the edge of a feminine balance to something else.

Gizmo, there are certain therapeutic situations that work best with "one gender only". Not sure about the magickal ones as I do 99% of this type of work alone, but as you pointed out, balance IS always vital.

I do know that it usually feels safer and less demanding, at first, to work with only women, until experience proves that ...

Woman also have bad sides, and can be spitefull, vicious, catty and subtley manipulative, before you realise you've been manipulated.

Exactly. And what a let-down this can be, for the uninitiated!   Females are just as capable as men of sexually harrassing and abusing other women too - this is rare, but the ones that do get away with it a lot more often.

In life as well as religion, I beleive we should appreciate the male and female form and energies for what they are, both positives and negatives.   Yes. And the first step is to recognize them, honestly, for what they are.

Thanks for sharing your family experiences here, Gizmo. YOu did a great job of showing how subtle but pervasive sexist conditioning really is, how it is passed down in families. I know people are changing for the better, but change comes very slowly. It will probably take a few more generations before gender equality is really achieved, for most people.

And that's only if there really IS such a thing as "gender equality"!   IMO, the jury is still out on that one.

Your description of your mom is a great example of how people can get stuck in old behavior ruts even when they KNOW better, even when every cell in their bodies is crying out for change. We are creatures of habit, for better or worse. And it takes a lot of time, vigilance, effort and courage to change habits of thought / behaviour as deeply ingrained as gender conditioning.

My own mom was ahead of herself in many ways -- for example, a wife and mother who built up a successful career outside the home was a rare thing back in the 60's. But certain attitudes have been with her all her life, and she refuses to change them. Or maybe, she simply cannot change them.

FOr example, she will not go to a female doctor. Doctors are MEN, after all! And she always chooses men for the executive positions of her foundation - even though that foundation is her creation, her brainchild, the product of her life's work (or, one of them!)

SHe noticed the new wooden coatrack on my wall beside my door the other day, low enough for my little preschoolers to reach when they come for piano lessons.   "That's a nice one!" she said. "Who did you get to hang it for you?"   

"No-one", I told her, "I did it myself with a couple of toggle bolts, tape measure and a screwdriver". Her eyes widened and she said "Oh -- I would NEVER have tried to do that myself!"    (??!!??)

Now, I could go on and on but I think that's enough stories for now!

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: able
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 09:34 AM

Have you noticed what has happened to this thread? Look at the title and you will realise that it has now become stages of female development. Somehow I expected more from an empathetic female input. Guess we can now delete this thread or change the title.

Subject: RE: BS: Stages of Human Male Development
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 10:23 AM

The wimmensfolk is takin' over, I tells ya! Where can a guy go to fart an' belch an' piss an' moan an' cry in his beer anymore?